Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[slrigeigdew]

Unfortunately, I don't believe that's actually first party.

Unless you meant for them to be the only 3rd party character present.

No that's entirely my B I'll swap it with Jill

 

[Gribbo]

Going off of what Koopaul said (which makes enough sense IMO), I'm going specifically with games that don't yet have a playable character that you could feasibly make an entire challenger pack around
Super Smash Bros X ARMS: Spring Man. I mean the ARMS part at least is already confirmed, and he's the main character and all.
Super Smash Bros X Xenoblade Chronicles 2: Rex and Pyra. Do I even need to say anything? Still highly demanded to this day, overly popular, what's not to like?
Super Smash Bros X Golden Sun: Isaac. Big fan favorite character and I'm a biased asshole for him. Why not?
Super Smash Bros X Pokemon Sword and Shield: Urshifu. I said this a while back but he just seems like the most obvious pick to me. We're probably getting SOME sort of character from a new game, so I'd say he makes a lot of sense.
Super Smash Bros X Boxboy!: Qbby. Probably the least conventional pick, but going off of unrepped Nintendo IPs, Boxboy's actually a decently popular one (particularly in Japan) and it just had a new game last year so it certainly isn't dead. And have you SEEN the prices on that Qbby amiibo? Crazy stuff. Anyhoo, I think you could make a fun, unconventional fighter out of him.
Super Smash Bros X Joy Mecha Fight: Sukapon. Least likely one on here, but I wanted to do a retro character because we haven't had one yet. Thought about doing Mach Rider or Takamaru, but I felt like Sukapon would be a nice way to end the pass, being the OG Nintendo fighting game character. And now that he (she?) is an assist trophy, people actually know the character.

 

[I.D.]

Anyway, we might be getting the results of that sourcegaming poll soon. I think.

👀I have an article that's coming out sometime soon for @AllSourceGaming. 👀👀

I worked on it with @HeroTechne and had support from @IntelliHeath.

It'll be a useful resource to reference for Smash fans.

— Will (PushDustIn) (@PushDustIn) May 13, 2020

 

[Opossum]

Oh my god I completely forgot about the Chorus Kids in my last post too. And Dillon.


So there are even more really good first party options.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

A common complaint about this pass was that it was "too safe", which is a nicer way of saying they think it's too predictable and boring. Aside from Sylux, I don't think this is a particularly unrealistic all first-party pass. Unless I'm out of the loop, I think a lot of people have agreed that Waluigi, Rex, and a Gen VIII Pokemon are all likely first-parties. Paper Mario is more divisive, but I doubt anyone would go as far as to say he's unlikely. Then there's Spring Man, who's franchise is already confirmed.

If you don't find this lineup to be realistic, I'm curious to hear what you do find likely.

You already admitted Sylux would be unrealistic so I won't bother on that regard, but the others?

People have made vocal criticisms of fatigue of some characters looking similar, so having our third Mario likely won't go over too well in the community where having blue hair means you're a carbon copy of someone else with blue hair

I don't think we're getting characters from Resident Evil, Astral Chain, Kunio, etc, and I'm going to give Gen 8 a fair treatment by assuming it's in the same position, especially as the second pass was already decided by the time the spirits got added


I think Rex's gimmick would be too much of a hassle to bother working with, not to mention Xenoblade's a franchise with a revolving cast, unlike Spring Man, Rex isn't guaranteed in a new Xenoblade game

I don't think Assist promotions are going to happen and I need to be proven wrong to be convinced.


There, that's my reasoning, I feel that's pretty fair

 

[PeridotGX]

if minecraft blaze was in smash, what would it's catchphrase be?

please i need one

 

[King Sonnn DeDeDoo]

Oh my god I completely forgot about the Chorus Kids in my last post too. And Dillon.


So there are even more really good first party options.

Speaking of Dillon, I think it would be cool if we got a character that could summon a turret of some sort. An area denial character sounds fun to play as, closest thing I can thing of is Plant's side-b or Isabelle's mine.

 

[Evil Trapezium]

Wonder how the general public would react to this hypothetical lineup
76. Twintelle
77. Musashi (Sushi Striker)
78. Future Zelda from BotW2
79. Cinderace
80. Arle Nadja
81. FE character announced in conjunction with the game he'll be in and he looks a bit like this

I sleep. There is no one here I like. Only one third party and one legacy character, both being Arle who I'm entirely indifferent on. 0/6 pass for me.

 

[DMTN]

If I had to make a first party pass that was designed to please me, we'd end up with nothing but niche picks, lmao.

1. Max Brass - Never played Arms, but this guy looks dope.
2. Captain Syrup - Smash is long overdue for a female villain. And I'm not counting Wendy. It would also help the Wario franchise out.
3. Donbe & Hikari - Might be cool. For some reason, these two have always stood out to me since I got their trophy in Melee.
4. Black Shadow - If you can't tell from my user image, I'm a huge fan of F-Zero GX. I hate the idea of him inheriting Ganondorf's moveset though.
5. Kyle Hyde - Considering this is a 1st party pass, I'm not allowed to list Phoenix Wright. Hyde comes closest though.
6. A Zelda character that's not Link, Zelda or Ganon. I'm not picky. Maybe Kass to drum up hype for BOTW2? They could give him the four champion abilities, kinda like how Zelda has the three goddess abilities.

A very selfish pass, but I wasn't going for realism here.

 

[OnyanRings]

I know PaRappa the Rapper is 100% a sony franchise but i've been thinking about it recently and i think Parappa would make for a really fun and unique character, any thoughts on this ?

And while we're at it, how likely can a Playstation character (That's been featured in Playstation All-star) really join smash ?

 

[DarthEnderX]

it's been right about everything

Yep. Terry Bogard sure is Sylux from Metroid.

 

[slrigeigdew]

People have made vocal criticisms of fatigue of some characters looking similar, so having our third Mario likely won't go over too well in the community where having blue hair means you're a carbon copy of someone else with blue hair

I hate that you're bringing this up because you're probably right and it's going to physically hurt me to see people make such a brain dead comparision to two otherwise completely different characters that are only similar in name alone.

I know PaRappa the Rapper is 100% a sony franchise but i've been thinking about it recently and i think Parappa would make for a really fun and unique character, any thoughts on this ?

And while we're at it, how likely can a Playstation character (That's been featured in Playstation All-star) really join smash ?

He game seems fun and his character suits Smash more than PlayStation All-Stars.
Idk how likely they'd be but I'd love to see Kat, Sly Cooper, or Sackboy join smash.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I know PaRappa the Rapper is 100% a sony franchise but i've been thinking about it recently and i think Parappa would make for a really fun and unique character, any thoughts on this ?

And while we're at it, how likely can a Playstation character (That's been featured in Playstation All-star) really join smash ?

I think timed hits, which would be deemed an easy mechanic for anyone from Parappa's franchise, is a godawful idea for a fighting game.


I feel it's the most unlikely potential company to get on board for Smash. Though a Sony character is the only thing I can think of that can rival a Master Chief reveal in terms of blowing everyone's minds

 

[Among Waddle Dees]

A common complaint about this pass was that it was "too safe", which is a nicer way of saying they think it's too predictable and boring. Aside from Sylux, I don't think this is a particularly unrealistic all first-party pass. Unless I'm out of the loop, I think a lot of people have agreed that Waluigi, Rex, and a Gen VIII Pokemon are all likely first-parties. Paper Mario is more divisive, but I doubt anyone would go as far as to say he's unlikely. Then there's Spring Man, who's franchise is already confirmed.

If you don't find this lineup to be realistic, I'm curious to hear what you do find likely.

I have reason to believe that most of these characters will come from unrepresented franchises.

I also don't actually want that to happen, because that will destroy my damaged hype for the game.

 

[Deleted member]

Here’s my first party pass for your judgement:
-Arms rep (I personally think it’s Spring Man)
-Bandana Waddle Dee
-Isaac
-Starfy
-Kid Icarus rep (Viridi, most likely)
-Waluigi

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

Spoiler: Beeg Jonespost

Kinda seems like there's some fabricated idea of people only liking 3rd parties because they're non-Nintendo, and disliking 1st parties because they're Nintendo, when it's actually pretty simple.

I can only speak from my own perspective, but I'll share it. I've said before that I can be steadily convinced of a character by seeing gameplay. I quickly shut up about Robin after seeing their gameplay for Smash Wii U. That was after previously saying, "No, it's gonna be Chrom!"

I've played at least one of each series with a playable character. I have an idea of what/who the characters are that folks want from Nintendo games. Bandanna Waddle Dee, Waluigi, a Gen 8 Pokemon, Zelda. To me, there really isn't anything inherently wrong with wanting a character from those series if that's what you're into.

However, with the way the DLC has been handled historically...it's kinda easy for me to understand why folks may not be especially excited considering the circumstances of that pass, and the potential for an actual pass like that to exist.

Mario has: 16 stages, 9 characters (though Yoshi, Wario, DK, Diddy, and K.Rool could be tangentially related, but I'd argue DK is a bit more removed imo), 106 music tracks, 13 items, 4 Assist Trophies (6 if you consider Klap Trap and Ashley)

Pokemon has: 7 stages, 10 characters, 33 Music tracks, 2 items (55 Pokeball Pokemon NPCs)

Zelda has: 9 stages, 6 characters, (45 music tracks) 6 items, 4 Assist Trophies

Kirby has: 5 stages, 3 characters, (38 music tracks), 4 Items, 2 Assist Trophies

Fire Emblem has: 3 stages,8 characters, 52 music tracks, 1 item, 3 Assist Trophies

That makes 37% of stages, 44% of characters, 28% of music, ~30% of items, and 22% of Assist Trophies. The numbers shoot up just a tad if you include Yoshi, Wario, and DK items. Nearly half the roster comes from these 5 series, over 1/3 of the stages come from these 5 series, over 1/4 of the nearly 1,000 tracks of music come from these 5 series, just under 1/3 of all items comes from these 5 series, and Assist Trophies are just under 1/4 of the total.

Mind you, there are 36 unique series with playable characters in Smash. 5 of them make up a significant portion of the content of the game. Clearly, some have more than others.

Here the thing though...the 3rd party characters that folks talk about. Let's think about some of them...we've got Dante, Crash Bandicoot, Travis Touchdown, 2B, Ace Attorney, or Tekken...just to name a few.

Devil May Cry: 0 Characters, 0 stages, 0 music tracks, 0 ATs, 0 items

NieR Automata: 0 Characters, 0 stages, 0 music tracks, 0 ATs, 0 items

Crash Bandicoot: 0 Characters, 0 stages, 0 music tracks, 0 ATs, 0 items

No More Heroes: 0 Characters, 0 stages, 0 music tracks, 0 ATs, 0 items

Ace Attorney: 0 Characters, 0 stages, 0 music tracks, 0 ATs, 0 items

Tekken: 0 Characters, 0 stages, 0 music tracks, 0 ATs, 0 items

You get the point.

Now, I understand Smash started as a Nintendo crossover. It still is a Nintendo crossover. However, the series itself has grown, and 3rd party characters are a major reason for that. Smash isn't what it is today without 3rd party companies and developers. Nintendo isn't what it is today with 3rd party companies and developers. Smash has become something that stokes the crossover dreams of fans, so it's no wonder fans will think, "Oh boy, I wonder which new series will cross over next!"

It's like getting an Ice Cream cone with 9 scoops on it, and while the next person says, "Excuse me sir, can I get 1 scoop?" and then the person with 9 scoops say, "But wait, what about mine?"

There's nothing wrong with wanting more, but understand that others may not be as open to it when their favorite/most desired has literally nothing in Smash. Nearly every major Nintendo protagonist supporting crew member, and villain is in Smash, so it's not all that surprising that protagonists of larger/popular non-Nintendo series are getting added over lower tier Nintendo characters. That's not something that I'm placing my bias in, it's just where we're at.

That was...a lot to type. Just some food for thought. Mario, Zelda, Pokemon...they are among my favorites. I grew up with them. They're part of who I am. But I've played a lot of games over the years, and at least for me...considering the amount of content we already have, I'd be much more excited to see what we get from something like Devil May Cry as I would be seeing 10 more Mario songs added on top of the 100 we already have, you know?

 

[DarthEnderX]

Remove Sylux and Gen 8 Pokemon and replace with Dixie Kong and Impa and I'm happy.

Remove everyone except Spring Man and replace them with 5 characters from my own wishlist, and I'll be happy.

I also like how this discussion is happening about how third parties ruined people's expectations to inherently hate Nintendo addittions when I can guarntee that everyone who thought the hypothetical pass sucks can make their own pass exclusively out of Nintendo characters

Not without putting at least 3 characters I don't actually want in it, I can't.

 

[OnyanRings]

I think timed hits, which would be deemed an easy mechanic for anyone from Parappa's franchise, is a godawful idea for a fighting game.


I feel it's the most unlikely potential company to get on board for Smash. Though a Sony character is the only thing I can think of that can rival a Master Chief reveal in terms of blowing everyone's minds

Well, i'm sure sakurai could find an interesting way to use the rythmic aspect of the game without it being too annoying to deal with.
I'll admit that i'm not sure of how they'd actually pull that off, but it's way too important not to include in his moveset.

 

[Cosmic77]

You already admitted Sylux would be unrealistic so I won't bother on that regard, but the others?

People have made vocal criticisms of fatigue of some characters looking similar, so having our third Mario likely won't go over too well in the community where having blue hair means you're a carbon copy of someone else with blue hair

I don't think we're getting characters from Resident Evil, Astral Chain, Kunio, etc, and I'm going to give Gen 8 a fair treatment by assuming it's in the same position, especially as the second pass was already decided by the time the spirits got added


I think Rex's gimmick would be too much of a hassle to bother working with, not to mention Xenoblade's a franchise with a revolving cast, unlike Spring Man, Rex isn't guaranteed in a new Xenoblade game

I don't think Assist promotions are going to happen and I need to be proven wrong to be convinced.


There, that's my reasoning, I feel that's pretty fair

Well, I don't think Paper Mario should be ignored just because he's another Mario. No offense to 3H fans, but if Nintendo genuinely cared about avoiding criticism from fans, I don't think Byleth would've gotten in.

SwSh is split 50/50, but I see it brought up more frequently in prediction passes than most other characters.

Hero got in as DLC, and his gimmick likely required a lot of work. I don't think Rex's gimmick is too complicated for Sakurai's team to handle, and that's assuming the character works the way we're picturing. He could be a lot simpler than that.

Waluigi really depends on Spring Man, but I've seen countless people claim that they expect Spring Man to be the character.

Altogether, I don't think the pass was too out there. I could see people thinking there are a few characters who are more likely than the ones in the pass, but I don't think anyone here would actually say something along the lines of, "You expect Paper Mario, Rex, and Waluigi!? That would never happen! It's so unlikely!"

 

[Garteam]

Here's my totally unrealistic, just things I want Fighter's Pass:
Spring Man with Ribbon Girl, Ninjara, and Min Min alts: We've already discussed this a million times, so I'll keep this brief. Variety's the spice life, and all four share a general body type and set of abilities. Plus, they're fun character ideas in their own right.

Ayumi Tachibana: I love obscure characters that have absolutely no reason to be in a fighting game yet still work, and Ayumi is exactly that. She could have a really fun moveset where she starts off incredibly weak but slowly builds power through finding clues, similar to Phoenix Wright in MvC3. Plus, the image of a schoolgirl beating up powerhouses like Ike and Ganondorf is a fun one.

Sigurd: No such thing as too much Fire Emblem, am I right? On a serious note, Sigurd's one of my favourites units in all of Fire Emblem. It's just so much fun to run around massive maps and destroy basically any enemy you come across. Plus, his story is a great deconstruction of the standard "conquer everything and make it work using the power of friendship" motif that many Fire Emblem games have. Plus, there's still no mounted characters in the roster, so Sigurd's horse would immediately make him stick out.

Lycanroc: As with Sigurd, Lycanroc is just a personal favourite of mine in his home series. He's not an outstanding glass cannon by any means, but having Tough Claws and stats that actually make good use of the Rock-type's strengths makes him a lot fun to play around with. Plus, I'm a dog person, and I really like Lycanroc's simple design. We don't a full Beast character in Smash yet (Wolf kinda touches on this, but he's still pretty anthropomorphized ) or a character who fights using the earth, so there's definitely a niche there.

Bandana Waddle Dee: To quote Todd Howard, "it just works". He's popular, got a cool weapon that is extremely under-utilized in Smash, an endearing personality, and he completes Kirby's main trio of supporting characters. A lot of people have talked about this little guy a lot and for good reason.

Captain Toad: Toad's absence from Smash is kinda strange, when you really think about it. He's been there since the beginning, appears in nearly every Mario entry in some capacity, he's the defacto player 3 in multi-player Mario platformers (unless Peach is there, then he gets bumped down to player 4), and is easily the most glaring omission from Mario's cast in Smash (Sorry, Waluigi). Of all the Toads across the Mario series, I think Captain Toad would be the best in Smash. He's got a very concrete identity, appears frequently, and Braxton's Big Dig did a great job showcasing how much fun a jumpless moveset could actually be. Throw in a Toadette alt and you have a winner.

 

[Will]

Sigurd:

Finally, more good Fire Emblem games being repped.

 

[DarthEnderX]

I hate that you're bringing this up because you're probably right and it's going to physically hurt me to see people make such a brain dead comparision to two otherwise completely different characters that are only similar in name alone.

Well, that and the fact that they're, ya know, the same person.

I honestly don't give a **** how different he plays. I'm never going to be excited about another version of a character that's already in the game.

Well, I don't think Paper Mario should be ignored just because he's another Mario.

I do.

I think timed hits, which would be deemed an easy mechanic for anyone from Parappa's franchise, is a godawful idea for a fighting game.

Aren't all fighting game combos technically timed hits anyway?

 

[SNEKeater]

About that infamous list, it's not like I'm against these characters. I'm actually open to any character. But it's certainly not the most pleasing selection for most people. Not because they're first party, that's not the proble, but because it feels too safe, among other reasons.

Spring Man I'd be completely okay with, in fact I'd rather have him before most of the other ARMS characters.
Waluigi is really indifferent for me, but I get he's popular and after all the demand it would make sense.
Rex I'm fine with him, but I could live without him.
Sylux I don't even get why he's still being considered, I'm a Metroid fan and Sylux for me always seemed a choice to fill the Metroid rep quota. I can hardly see him as a full fledged character. Maybe with Prime 4 he will be great but nowadays he's as interesting for me as a rock.
A new pokémon. The problem with this is that we don't know who they would choose. It's very hard to find a choice that will please most of the fans. Maybe they would go with a pokémon I'd like, but maybe not.
Paper Mario... while I admit that the idea of Paper Mario could probably be original in terms of gameplay, I don't think that the idea of a third Mario it's really exciting. The difference with Young Link would be that Paper Mario would require an unique moveset, which is nice, but I don't know. I'd rather have Waluigi if I have to choose between these two.

Granted each one of us has different tastes, but I think the pass would be a lot more interesting and surprising with 1-2 'risky' picks as Officer Howard or Ring Fit Trainer, throw a long requested character in there such as Isaac, Dixie Kong or BWD, maybe even a retro Nintendo character like Mach Rider or another crazy pick.
When it comes to Nintendo characters I'm in the opinion that I'd rather have new series being repped. Of course, there are some exceptions, but personally from Nintendo what I'd like to see is new franchises in Smash: Golden Sun, Astral Chain, Rhythm Heaven, Advance Wars, Ring Fit...

ARMS wasn't the most exciting announcement for me (partly because of the announcement itself), but I'd always welcome new series to Smash and only for that reason I'm happy with that choice.

I know PaRappa the Rapper is 100% a sony franchise but i've been thinking about it recently and i think Parappa would make for a really fun and unique character, any thoughts on this ?

And while we're at it, how likely can a Playstation character (That's been featured in Playstation All-star) really join smash ?

1% at best, and within that 1% I can only see Nathan Drake or Kratos, with Ratchet & Clank in a really really distant 3rd place.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Well, I don't think Paper Mario should be ignored just because he's another Mario. No offense to 3H fans, but if Nintendo genuinely cared about avoiding criticism from fans, I don't think Byleth would've gotten in.

SwSh is split 50/50, but I see it brought up more frequently in prediction passes than most other characters.

Hero got in as DLC, and his gimmick likely required a lot of work. I don't think Rex's gimmick is too complicated for Sakurai's team to handle, and that's assuming the character works the way we're picturing. He could be a lot simpler than that.

Waluigi really depends on Spring Man, but I've seen countless people claim that they expect Spring Man to be the character.

Altogether, I don't think the pass was too out there. I could see people thinking there are a few characters who are more likely than the ones in the pass, but I don't think anyone here would actually say something along the lines of, "You expect Paper Mario, Rex, and Waluigi!? That would never happen! It's so unlikely!"

Show me the other two Byleths in the game then. It's not just about looking rsther similar, it's about being EXACTLY the same character, like how Zelda fans are annoyed with Link, Link and Link being half of the Zelda cast

Being a 50/50 inherently means it depends on person to person, and although RTC shouldn't really be used as a scale for the entirety of the fanbase, I saw a majority of people there dismiss 'gen 8 rep' yesterday for the same reason I did, by treating Pokemon fairly within our expectations


Hero's gimmick doesn't need to take every single stage into account, an AI partner with different attributes than the main fighter, balance for being too far or up close, etc. Having Pyra assist Rex brings so many damn variables into the mix that no other character has had to even consider

 

[I.D.]

From the creators of "this character can't be in because it has no moveset potential" comes the long awaited sequel "this character can't be in because it has too much potential"

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Aren't all fighting game combos technically timed hits anyway?

There's a difference between reacting after a move and reacting to landing the move, one is chaining hits with multiple attacks, not "Do a jab and if you hit the attack button on a specific frame, the jab will be better". Blazblue CTB changed Azreal's gimmick to timed hits and nobody liked it at all, especially when you consider Smash balance is typically based on online, which severely handicaps players' ability to react and chain hits already

 

[Cosmic77]

Spoiler: Big Jonespost

Kinda seems like there's some fabricated idea of people only liking 3rd parties because they're non-Nintendo, and disliking 1st parties because they're Nintendo, when it's actually pretty simple.

I can only speak from my own perspective, but I'll share it. I've said before that I can be steadily convinced of a character by seeing gameplay. I quickly shut up about Robin after seeing their gameplay for Smash Wii U. That was after previously saying, "No, it's gonna be Chrom!"

I've played at least one of each series with a playable character. I have an idea of what/who the characters are that folks want from Nintendo games. Bandanna Waddle Dee, Waluigi, a Gen 8 Pokemon, Zelda. To me, there really isn't anything inherently wrong with wanting a character from those series if that's what you're into.

However, with the way the DLC has been handled historically...it's kinda easy for me to understand why folks may not be especially excited considering the circumstances of that pass, and the potential for an actual pass like that to exist.

Mario has: 16 stages, 9 characters (though Yoshi, Wario, DK, Diddy, and K.Rool could be tangentially related, but I'd argue DK is a bit more removed imo), 106 music tracks, 13 items, 4 Assist Trophies (6 if you consider Klap Trap and Ashley)
Pokemon has: 7 stages, 10 characters, 33 Music tracks, 2 items (55 Pokeball Pokemon NPCs)
Zelda has: 9 stages, 6 characters, (45 music tracks) 6 items, 4 Assist Trophies
Kirby has: 5 stages, 3 characters, (38 music tracks), 4 Items, 2 Assist Trophies
Fire Emblem has: 3 stages,8 characters, 52 music tracks, 1 item, 3 Assist Trophies

That makes 37% of stages, 44% of characters, 28% of music, ~30% of items, and 22% of Assist Trophies. The numbers shoot up just a tad if you include Yoshi, Wario, and DK items. Nearly half the roster comes from these 5 series, over 1/3 of the stages come from these 5 series, over 1/4 of the nearly 1,000 tracks of music come from these 5 series, just under 1/3 of all items comes from these 5 series, and Assist Trophies are just under 1/4 of the total.

Mind you, there are 36 unique series with playable characters in Smash. 5 of them make up a significant portion of the content of the game. Clearly, some have more than others.

Here the thing though...the 3rd party characters that folks talk about. Let's think about some of them...we've got Dante, Crash Bandicoot, Travis Touchdown, 2B, Ace Attorney, or Tekken...just to name a few.

Devil May Cry: 0 Characters, 0 stages, 0 music tracks, 0 ATs, 0 items
NieR Automata: 0 Characters, 0 stages, 0 music tracks, 0 ATs, 0 items
Crash Bandicoot: 0 Characters, 0 stages, 0 music tracks, 0 ATs, 0 items
No More Heroes: 0 Characters, 0 stages, 0 music tracks, 0 ATs, 0 items
Ace Attorney: 0 Characters, 0 stages, 0 music tracks, 0 ATs, 0 items
Tekken: 0 Characters, 0 stages, 0 music tracks, 0 ATs, 0 items

You get the point.

Now, I understand Smash started as a Nintendo crossover. It still is a Nintendo crossover. However, the series itself has grown, and 3rd party characters are a major reason for that. Smash isn't what it is today without 3rd party companies and developers. Nintendo isn't what it is today with 3rd party companies and developers. Smash has become something that stokes the crossover dreams of fans, so it's no wonder fans will think, "Oh boy, I wonder which new series will cross over next!"

It's like getting an Ice Cream cone with 9 scoops on it, and while the next person says, "Excuse me sir, can I get 1 scoop?" and then the person with 9 scoops say, "But wait, what about mine?"

There's nothing wrong with wanting more, but understand that others may not be as open to it when their favorite/most desired has literally nothing in Smash. Nearly every major Nintendo protagonist supporting crew member, and villain is in Smash, so it's not all that surprising that protagonists of larger/popular non-Nintendo series are getting added over lower tier Nintendo characters. That's not something that I'm placing my bias in, it's just where we're at.

That was...a lot to type. Just some food for thought. Mario, Zelda, Pokemon...they are among my favorites. I grew up with them. They're part of who I am. But I've played a lot of games over the years, and at least for me...considering the amount of content we already have, I'd be much more excited to see what we get from something like Devil May Cry as I would be seeing 10 more Mario songs added on top of the 100 we already have, you know?

But if our focus shifts to just adding new franchises, then what does that leave us with for first-parties? Mainly a bunch of really small franchises that don't have the same support as the larger ones.

It wouldn't matter if BotW 2 had this really cool character that would be perfect for Smash. We have plenty of Zelda content. Doesn't matter if there's this new Pokemon/FE/XC character we really want in the next Smash game. All three are already on the roster, so that would be a let down. At this point, we've made the franchise more important than the character themselves.

I feel like if this is the stance people are going to take, they would be better off just saying, "Let's stick with third-parties from now on", because the number of notable franchises left to add is only getting smaller and smaller. Not that I genuinely believe the whole issue stems from wanting only unrepped franchises. ARMS had no characters, no stages, and no music, and yet the response ranged from somewhat positive to neutral.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Imagine this being the Season 2 Pass.

Spring Man
Paper Mario
Sylux
Gen 8 Pokemon
Rex
Waluigi

I have come back from the dead to critique this post.


Spring Man: A bit safe on the ARMS character. I'm of the opinion that Spring Man is fairly likely and any potential ******** about him would be minimal. I personally think the most likely option is Spring Man / Ribbon Girl so I think this prediction is safe enough. Also I love ARMS so this pick gets a pass from me.

Paper Mario / Waluigi: Neither are bad choices on their own. The issue is both of them together. I'd personally just pick Waluigi, who is the most popular of the two and call it a day.

Sylux: Sylux only got requests because Metroid fans were desperate and the more popular characters Ridley and Dark Samus were thought to be impossible. Sylux himself doesn't have much to stand on. He's been a promise of something cool... for over a decade.

Let's put it this way, your significant other has alluded that they wanna have sex with you, but the chores need to be done first. You do the chores and they suddenly don't feel like doing it. Imagine that over a long period of time. That's Sylux.

There are genuine fans of the character, just not many of them.

Gen 8 Pokemon: I loved my playthrough of Shield, but this is gonna be divisive. I can't actually blame you for picking it though. It seems like a fairly likely option. Just underwhelming. People's favorites aren't gonna get picked. And if they somehow pick Toxtricity, whom I think looks ugly as hell, I'll be a sad boy.

Rex: I dig it. Xenoblade 2 is more popular than this site would have you believe. Rex is popular in Japan (kind like how Byleth was fairly popular going by fan polls) and is fairly popular here. Even if some of the thread would gnash their teeth, he'd ultimately go over well.

 

[I.D.]

Not that I genuinely believe the whole issue stems from wanting only unrepped franchises. ARMS had no characters, no stages, and no music, and yet the response ranged from somewhat positive to neutral.

No kidding. ARMS was genuinely unexpected by the vast majority of people, it still didn't quite receive a warm welcome.

 

[Evil Trapezium]

I know PaRappa the Rapper is 100% a sony franchise but i've been thinking about it recently and i think Parappa would make for a really fun and unique character, any thoughts on this ?

And while we're at it, how likely can a Playstation character (That's been featured in Playstation All-star) really join smash ?

I would love to see Parappa the Rappa in Smash Bros. He would blend in like he was a Nintendo character all along. There are a few other characters I would like to see like Daniel Fortesque, Spike and Tomba.

As for the likeliness of a Sony character joining Smash... Nope... No chance at all.

Here’s my first party pass for your judgement:
-Arms rep (I personally think it’s Spring Man)
-Bandana Waddle Dee
-Isaac
-Starfy
-Kid Icarus rep (Viridi, most likely)
-Waluigi

Isaac is the only one I like out of this pass. Sleep pass for me.

 

[3BitSaurus]

Spoiler: Beeg Jonespost

Kinda seems like there's some fabricated idea of people only liking 3rd parties because they're non-Nintendo, and disliking 1st parties because they're Nintendo, when it's actually pretty simple.

I can only speak from my own perspective, but I'll share it. I've said before that I can be steadily convinced of a character by seeing gameplay. I quickly shut up about Robin after seeing their gameplay for Smash Wii U. That was after previously saying, "No, it's gonna be Chrom!"

I've played at least one of each series with a playable character. I have an idea of what/who the characters are that folks want from Nintendo games. Bandanna Waddle Dee, Waluigi, a Gen 8 Pokemon, Zelda. To me, there really isn't anything inherently wrong with wanting a character from those series if that's what you're into.

However, with the way the DLC has been handled historically...it's kinda easy for me to understand why folks may not be especially excited considering the circumstances of that pass, and the potential for an actual pass like that to exist.

Mario has: 16 stages, 9 characters (though Yoshi, Wario, DK, Diddy, and K.Rool could be tangentially related, but I'd argue DK is a bit more removed imo), 106 music tracks, 13 items, 4 Assist Trophies (6 if you consider Klap Trap and Ashley)

Pokemon has: 7 stages, 10 characters, 33 Music tracks, 2 items (55 Pokeball Pokemon NPCs)

Zelda has: 9 stages, 6 characters, (45 music tracks) 6 items, 4 Assist Trophies

Kirby has: 5 stages, 3 characters, (38 music tracks), 4 Items, 2 Assist Trophies

Fire Emblem has: 3 stages,8 characters, 52 music tracks, 1 item, 3 Assist Trophies

That makes 37% of stages, 44% of characters, 28% of music, ~30% of items, and 22% of Assist Trophies. The numbers shoot up just a tad if you include Yoshi, Wario, and DK items. Nearly half the roster comes from these 5 series, over 1/3 of the stages come from these 5 series, over 1/4 of the nearly 1,000 tracks of music come from these 5 series, just under 1/3 of all items comes from these 5 series, and Assist Trophies are just under 1/4 of the total.

Mind you, there are 36 unique series with playable characters in Smash. 5 of them make up a significant portion of the content of the game. Clearly, some have more than others.

Here the thing though...the 3rd party characters that folks talk about. Let's think about some of them...we've got Dante, Crash Bandicoot, Travis Touchdown, 2B, Ace Attorney, or Tekken...just to name a few.

Devil May Cry: 0 Characters, 0 stages, 0 music tracks, 0 ATs, 0 items

NieR Automata: 0 Characters, 0 stages, 0 music tracks, 0 ATs, 0 items

Crash Bandicoot: 0 Characters, 0 stages, 0 music tracks, 0 ATs, 0 items

No More Heroes: 0 Characters, 0 stages, 0 music tracks, 0 ATs, 0 items

Ace Attorney: 0 Characters, 0 stages, 0 music tracks, 0 ATs, 0 items

Tekken: 0 Characters, 0 stages, 0 music tracks, 0 ATs, 0 items

You get the point.

Now, I understand Smash started as a Nintendo crossover. It still is a Nintendo crossover. However, the series itself has grown, and 3rd party characters are a major reason for that. Smash isn't what it is today without 3rd party companies and developers. Nintendo isn't what it is today with 3rd party companies and developers. Smash has become something that stokes the crossover dreams of fans, so it's no wonder fans will think, "Oh boy, I wonder which new series will cross over next!"

It's like getting an Ice Cream cone with 9 scoops on it, and while the next person says, "Excuse me sir, can I get 1 scoop?" and then the person with 9 scoops say, "But wait, what about mine?"

There's nothing wrong with wanting more, but understand that others may not be as open to it when their favorite/most desired has literally nothing in Smash. Nearly every major Nintendo protagonist supporting crew member, and villain is in Smash, so it's not all that surprising that protagonists of larger/popular non-Nintendo series are getting added over lower tier Nintendo characters. That's not something that I'm placing my bias in, it's just where we're at.

That was...a lot to type. Just some food for thought. Mario, Zelda, Pokemon...they are among my favorites. I grew up with them. They're part of who I am. But I've played a lot of games over the years, and at least for me...considering the amount of content we already have, I'd be much more excited to see what we get from something like Devil May Cry as I would be seeing 10 more Mario songs added on top of the 100 we already have, you know?

While most of my preferences lie with 3rd parties... I think your point is a bit misleading. You see, while most of the third parties you cited have no "ice cream scoops"... they were never guaranteed to get one. I see a lot of people acting like 1st parties are less hype as if Nintendo somehow promised us that we'd get nothing but guest characters (not you specifically, just a general sentiment I see in this thread). Maybe this is still some leftover bias from that one Reggie statement, I dunno. That's what has led me to say that some users are really taking third parties for granted.

So it's like... yeah, these series have no scoops, but they were never in line for one in the first place. Or at least, if they are, they're invisible to us until they're not. I believe that's the big difference - we'll always get more Nintendo characters because this is a Nintendo game. Other characters are cool and all when they happen, but we were never really promised anything in that regard, so if it doesn't happen... it doesn't happen and that's it.

Again, all of this is coming from someone whose favorite additions to the past three Smash games were all third party.

 

[Phoenix Douchebag]

"SPRING MAN ISN'T THE MASCOT OF ARMS, THAT EMERGES OVER A LONG PERIOD OF TI-"

meanwhile the ARMS announcement trailer January 2017

Let's face it, we wouldn't have this type of disscussion if Spring Man wasn't an Assist. Hell, we didn't have this discussion at all in the base game. It all resorts to "Spring Man is boring therefore he's not the mascot".

 

[Cutie Gwen]

But if our focus shifts to just adding new franchises, then what does that leave us with for first-parties? Mainly a bunch of really small franchises that don't have the same support as the larger ones.

It wouldn't matter if BotW 2 had this really cool character that would be perfect for Smash. We have plenty of Zelda content. Doesn't matter if there's this new Pokemon/FE/XC character we really want in the next Smash game. All three are already on the roster, so that would be a let down. At this point, we've made the franchise more important than the character themselves.

I feel like if this is the stance people are going to take, they would be better off just saying, "Let's stick with third-parties from now on", because the number of notable franchises left to add is only getting smaller and smaller. Not that I genuinely believe the whole issue stems from wanting only unrepped franchises. ARMS had no characters, no stages, and no music, and yet the response ranged from somewhat positive to neutral.

Then the issue lies with Nintendo for not trying to make these franchises bigger. They managed to turn a franchise thsat was literally on the brink of death to one of their major IPs soley because they remembered to market it, Splatoon's marketing was hyper-aggressive to the point it became a major hit on a dying, failed console. If Nintendo's not interested in making people care about their smaller franchises, then obviously, their smaller franchises will get ignored in favour of the same 5 that get pumped out constantly.

As to why people aren't excited about the moat represented franchises getting more representation, imagine eating your favourite food, it's great, right? Now imagine eating it all the time, not just every day, but every meal. You'd get sick of it and long for something else, even if it's the only consistent thing in the meals.


As for why ARMS got a lukewarm reception... Well, it's ARMS, a rather barebones game that the hardcore crowd collectively ignored to the point loads of people thought it was dead, it should be no surprise that it got a lukewarm reception compared to most newcomers

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Let's face it, we wouldn't have this type of disscussion if Spring Man wasn't an Assist. Hell, we didn't have this discussion at all in the base game. It all resorts to "Spring Man is boring therefore he's not the mascot".

Remember when people said that about Ryu, and then he came out, and is now considered one of the most mechanically interesting characters in the franchise?

I do.

 

[Phoenix Douchebag]

Remember when people said that about Ryu, and then he came out, and is now considered one of the most mechanically interesting characters in the franchise?

I do.

They said the same about Terry too. Ken with a Cap N' **** is what they called him. Guess no one thought of the idea of giving him desperation moves.

...............Oh ****. Swampasaur it's you. Haven't seen you in this thread until now.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

They said the same about Terry too. Ken with a Cap N' **** is what they called him. Guess no one thought of the idea of giving him desperation moves.

...............Oh ****. Swampasaur it's you. Haven't seen you in this thread until now.

Boredom got to me.

I won't be here for long.




That said, Lloyd for Smash.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

While most of my preferences lie with 3rd parties... I think your point is a bit misleading. You see, while most of the third parties you cited have no "ice cream scoops"... they were never guaranteed to get one. I see a lot of people acting like 1st parties are less hype as if Nintendo somehow promised us that we'd get nothing but guest characters (not you specifically, just a general sentiment I see in this thread). Maybe this is still some leftover bias from that one Reggie statement, I dunno. That's what has led me to say that some users are really taking third parties for granted.

So it's like... yeah, these series have no scoops, but they were never in line for one in the first place. Or at least, if they are, they're invisible to us until they're not. I believe that's the big difference - we'll always get more Nintendo characters because this is a Nintendo game. Other characters are cool and all when they happen, but we were never really promised anything in that regard, so if it doesn't happen... it doesn't happen and that's it.

Again, all of this is coming from someone whose favorite additions to the past three Smash games were all third party.

That analogy wasnt saying the series themselves were in line for ice cream, but the fans of said franchises or series.

My point was that, sure, you can want a 10th Mario character, but just realize that the guy who wanted Phoenix Wright doesn’t have any yet. That’s likely a reason as to why certain potential passes that include mostly Mario, Pokémon, and Zelda (or Fire Emblem) get the responses they do. They have a substantial amount of content already in Smash, whereas series such as the ones I listed, don’t.

That’s not to say those series don’t have good options. They’re all quality series and among my favorites. But I don’t think it should be surprising when people aren’t excited by the idea of putting more characters in when the series they originate from takes up so much of the game already.

Before anybody says it, “They’re big enough to warrant it” is great, but it doesn’t change the fact that it’s boring. Smash Ultimate is built up as this large crossover, and you tell fans we’re getting 6 picks, and then...half of them are from the series that have the most content in Smash? There’s the reaction to Byleth, and then I’d say the reaction to that has the potential to be underwhelming as well.

Granted, I think the discussions can be quite nuanced, because it really isn’t simple to put it as “1st party” and “3rd party” as if all in either “category” have the same levels of appeal to one another in the first place.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

My point was that, sure, you can want a 10th Mario character, but just realize that the guy who wanted Phoenix Wright doesn’t have any yet. That’s likely a reason as to why certain potential passes that include mostly Mario, Pokémon, and Zelda (or Fire Emblem) get the responses they do. They have a substantial amount of content already in Smash, whereas series such as the ones I listed, don’t.

Honestly, I think a Zelda newcomer would go over well due to the lack of newcomers since... Brawl.

But also not Brawl...

Point being, people think a Zelda newcomer is warranted.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Remember when people said that about Ryu, and then he came out, and is now considered one of the most mechanically interesting characters in the franchise?

I do.

It didn't help that people tried to make it sound like we have the moveset already too. Yes, just cause Mario/Luigi/Dr. Mario has shotoclone traits doesn't mean they fully have a similar moveset. There's more to it than specials(or a Down Air in Mario's case). In a sense, at least in Melee, they somewhat had them as their own equivalent to the shotoclones, due to having variations on the same moveset and all. But that's a different thing.

 

[Cosmic77]

Then the issue lies with Nintendo for not trying to make these franchises bigger. They managed to turn a franchise thsat was literally on the brink of death to one of their major IPs soley because they remembered to market it, Splatoon's marketing was hyper-aggressive to the point it became a major hit on a dying, failed console. If Nintendo's not interested in making people care about their smaller franchises, then obviously, their smaller franchises will get ignored in favour of the same 5 that get pumped out constantly.

As to why people aren't excited about the moat represented franchises getting more representation, imagine eating your favourite food, it's great, right? Now imagine eating it all the time, not just every day, but every meal. You'd get sick of it and long for something else, even if it's the only consistent thing in the meals.


As for why ARMS got a lukewarm reception... Well, it's ARMS, a rather barebones game that the hardcore crowd collectively ignored to the point loads of people thought it was dead, it should be no surprise that it got a lukewarm reception compared to most newcomers

You just claimed that Nintendo needs to do a better job of advertising their smaller IPs, only to say that it's no surprise that ARMS wasn't exciting because a lot of people ignored it.

People ignoring certain franchises is kind of why Rhythm Heaven and Golden Sun are in the position they're in right now. People say they'd love to get a new entry from either of those series, but will enough people actually commit? It's not as simple as, "Make new game, watch the cash flow in".

ARMS should probably be in the same boat as other dropped franchises, but for whatever reason Nintendo hasn't given up on it yet. Isn't that what you wanted them to do? Not give up prematurely?