Newbie 24 - SMT: Devil Survivor LAW IS VICTORIOUS #1 CHAOS LOSES AHAHAHAH

[#HBC | BadWolf]

Hmm ok.

i have one last question for you Wulf, Do you wavedash the pawn wagon was too easy ?

... Ok wtf.... What is up with the word "Wavedash"?

Some admin ****ing with us?

 

[ranmaru]

LOL I was like... Circus why the **** are you putting in the word Wavedash in the title "Ocarina of ____"

think... time...

 

[#HBC | BadWolf]

That is really annoying and confusing.

 

[#HBC | BadWolf]

Seriously?

 

[#HBC | BadWolf]

Oh god damnit... It's the first of April....

 

[ranmaru]

It's April 1st. Just carry on. Don't let it clutter the thread yo.

 

[ranmaru]

@Kantrip: Alright looking forward to that.
@GaGa: Looking forward to your input dude.
@Pwndiator: Hey man. You seem to be viewing alot but don't really say much. Having a hard wavedash getting a word in? Just wondering. If you have any questions feel free to ask. If you haven't, please read my #123 and give thoughts on it too. I know I keep repeating this but I just make sure all the newbies read this so they can have a better understanding.

@Xiroey: I'm disappointed in you. You said you had a big post incoming, and then lost it. Ok, it's gone, try again. If at all, try at least responding to my #206 in a smaller post then. Try doing it all in Microsoft word and Ctrl + S'ing all the wavedash so that way you back up your post instead of letting it go to waste. YOU ARE HOLDING UP THE THREAD SO PICK YOURSELF UP BUDDY. Come on.

I want the newbies to take note of Xiroey taking a bit longer than usual to get involved here. Don't let others hold up the thread guys! You can't get reads on people who don't get involved. You can respect their play-styles but don't let them sit back while others fight it out, no. I also colored this post so that people don't miss this. I want attention to be put on this. I find it hard to get a read if people aren't interacting as much as usual. If people sit back it's easy for them to get away from the sights of town early on and just become "that lurker" and others might prioritize their strong scumreads over them. Don't LET that happen. Bring them in.

Quoting this so you peeps don't forget. New page and all.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

I'd advise to stay away from Mafia on April Fool's because it might get a bit confusing.

Nabe cannot replace, contacting Raz.

 

[Shun Goku Satsu Rake]

Hmm maybe. It still feels like a challenge to me. You are asking me "Is me asking telling?" and I say "Why did you ask if it was telling?" Like, how did it being unusual possibly mean Kantrip was scum for being unusual? I don't really get why you are asking me if you asking was telling. I obviously have a wavedash with you doing so. (And yes, I do wavedash it's telling, I wavedash it's you as scum trying trying to start something to be able to fake your way to a scumread, how else would you start?) What was the purpose in you asking me that?

Except, it isn't and wasn't challenge, I'm not sure how your hung up on this. I didn't say he was scum for it, I said you could stretch it that way, I never said he was scum because it was unusual, in fact, I just said it was unusual and left it as such, your the one who has said it appeared one way, and I am the one telling you it was the other, so I'm not sure how you've jumped to "How did it being unusual possibly mean Kantrip was scum ". I explained how you could stretch it where Kantrip could have (if you take it thinking in terms of Kantrip scum) a hidden angle to being nice to me , but I never did so nor implied so, nor did I say: " And that's what made me feel odd ". I simply asked him why he was nice to me, and now you seem to think I was setting him up for something, which doesn't make any sense. Your fabricating a situation to fit what you think, when it really is as simple as I am making it. I'm asking you if it's telling because you're very hung up on it clearly, largely due to thinking I was trying to start something with Kantrip, when In all reality, if I had wanted to start something as scum, I simply would have, i would have no reason early to fear Kantrip and more to gain by actually starting something. In the scenario your creating, your creating a self fulfilling prophecy that I am scum.

I.E: I'm either scum, because I would have started something with Kantrip to create a fake scum read on him, or I'm scum because It looked that way, but I never did due to lack of ammo.

My purpose is too see why or if you think it's telling. I'm not sure why I need to tell you this, if your scum reading me on it, as clearly you are, I want you to be able to explain your case in full detail and that includes why me asking a question is telling one way or another from your perspective.

I don't know where else you could have gone through with that. How would I know? Yes, it does feel like you wanted to go somewhere with it and had it dropped because he didn't give you any ammo to do so. You still have to explain to me why Kantrip being unusually nice to you possibly means he is scum as opposed to his other games.

Well once again, that's simply not the case, I'll keep saying this until you understand it Ran, lol.

And once again, your misreading what I intended and posted, I didn't say " Kantrip is scum because he was nice to me ", in fact, I didn't even imply as such, I said, If you wanted to, you could possibly stretch that Kantrip had a hidden scum angle in being nice to me. But I didnt' say I believed that, nor that i felt that way, in fact if i remember my own post right , you had asked me for possible scum intent and I responded with what it could be, not with what I believed it to be.

Yes to the ducks in a row question. Rather, if Kantrip said something that could allow you to push further, I would wavedash you would do so.

Again though, your creating a circle here: Either as scum I would have pushed him because I thought I could get away with it, but because I didn't and responded how I did, I am scum.

Meaning that you left the vote on Badwolf for so long. Look at my Marivote777. It wasn't on as long as your Badwolf vote, and I went elsewhere to use my vote wisely. You aren't really doing much with it.

But I am doing things with it, my intent was to put a little pressure onto Badwulf, get him into the thread again and ask him stuff and see where he is at, so in point of fact I achieved exactly what I set out to do with Badwulf, and up to this point, after I get finished with re-reading him, I'll decide if my vote can be better used somewhere else, or if it can still be of use on him.

How does the length of my vote on Badwulf equate to me being scum in this scenario ?

My concern is that the questions you have been asking aren't really helping to determine one's alignment. You are just asking for what the newbie's opinions are of what they'd look for, and their opinions of you. When I say "not that much" I'm not saying that you should have ALOT. You should have some, or a regular amount, but you really have none. Tell me, which questions before I made this case on you, was to determine one's alignment? Did it achieve what you were looking for? Why or why not?

And me asking are you town does ? You and I both have our questions, and in point of fact I only asked once what they thought of me , and when slot's like Xiroey and Gaga were less then committal by saying I hadn't done anything in particular to be worth their attention, I asked them what somethings would be that would be, and that was meant in a general sense, not in a "What would alert you to me in specific".

What determines a regular amount of questions exactly ? To my knowledge there is not a bar saying : You must ask X amount of questions in order to be useful in your own reads. And in point of fact, your blanketing the questions I did ask as only in concern for myself, but again I only actually asked one specific question regarding myself, and followed up on it on a general sense of : What would put someone on your radar. Your clearly undercutting my scum-potential from your POV if you think I'd be as blunt to ask them : What can I do to avoid being noticed by you, as that would bring me into direct notice of them.

Eh, it's sort of meta, but it's just I'm also thinking you are doing this for a hidden agenda. I mean, it seems like since you have this IC role, you want to be under the radar. I don't know, I would guess you came in as scum, thinking "Yeah I'll just be on cruise mode and let newbies do everything and then just spear head whatever comes my way". I mean you can't expect them to do EVERYTHING, you sort of have to be doing stuff too so they can learn via example. Now that's what I wavedash may have been your thoughts as scum, yet I don't really know. I'm just looking at the actions you have done and just explain why I find them suspicious. I won't truly know your motives as mafia, I can only guess at it. I can also guess you were just going with the flow as scum and just not really planning ahead.

But what if I am not ? Have you considered this fully ? You seem to be buying what you yourself are selling here Ran, You think I have a hidden agenda, and as such your treating it like you know this for a fact, when you simply do not, as you are one to do as town when you tunnel them, you get tunnel vision and it clouds your ability to see any angle but the one you have created. I neither expected them to do everything , nor did I state I was going to do nothing, you asked me why and I said I don't want to be the catalyst, this by no means implies or infers that I intend to lay back and do nothing , it simply means I'm only going to pursue something and be outword about it when it suites me and when I feel that it'll help me garner reactions , reads or what have you. They could learn by example when I decided to do as such, I'm by no means bound to any time frame to show them how to create a concise case, or show them how to lay out their thoughts concisely.

I'm not expecting you to be 'always the same'. I do different things all the wavedash. **** I have tried laying low and being super concise in LoLupic... but here is the kicker. I gave my opinions and did ask people questions to try and determine alignment. Also, I don't see what your purpose for asking me about the 'tells' of your question to Kantrip. Why are YOU asking me that? You seem to be trying to clarifying alot of things on the defense, which to me reads as you trying to bounce wavedash back to me. Do you really wavedash I'm trying to say that I wavedash you are scum without me saying it? I'm not. I do wavedash you are scum for trying to stay off the radar and hide behind your IC role. I am not happy with your responses or your play this game, questions such as these is a bit disgusting:



You seem to be trying to say something. What is your opinion of me, and how does this quote fit in with it?

I've made my opinion clear enough , either when i have been asked or of my own volition, and all of my questions have a drive to them, even if it's just me wanting clarification on something I found odd, and when I've been asked by you why I asked those questions, I tried to clarify on my reasoning, were you unimpressed or unconvinced by what i gave you in response ? Could you lay out why you felt that way about them ?
My purpose was to see what you were drawing from it, I knew why I asked him, and I felt like the interaction between he and myself was rather cut and dry , over and done, so for you to inquire about it , meant to me you had an opinion of it, being so I asked you if it was telling from your POV that I had asked him that.
I'm clarifying a lot of things because your asking me for clarification lol. I'm not sure what you mean, do you mean in the sense that, initially I leave it very open to interpretation and only address it when asked ?
I'm not trying to fling it back on you in this way either, I just want to know where your at and why, being the accuser, you have the burden of proof to show why you think i am scum and why you think I am doing what i am, being the defender, I want to be able to concisely respond to your points or questions.
But that's your interpretation of events, you have no knowledge that i tried to hide , any more than I have proof that I was just letting stuff happen, as I have said. I posted a bit much in an IC tone seems to be the brunt of your case here, and while its' true I probably used the IC things moreso than I needed to, that doesn't make your interpretation of why I did so true.
You say your not happy with my response or my play, but to be blunt, making you happy is not my first priority nor did I realize this game was called "King Ran runs this and you best please him, else to your doom ", to compound this, you didn't seem to take any visible issue when i layed out my feelings on Turaz, nor Xiroey, so were you okay with those posts ? Did you agree with them or my points behind them ? And what of my recent postings, are you currently pulling more from now that compounds your feelings ? As it looks now, your stuck in the start of the game, when your read on me should be the sum of my play to it's entirety. So what have you disliked lately, if you dislike my play and responses.
If you are stuck in the start of the game, then In essence your just picking and choosing what to disagree with because you have a scum read on me.
Why exactly were those questions disgusting ?
Is it disgusting that I am asking you to elaborate on your feelings, which should be no real issue ?
Is it disgusting that, as the primary focus of your case lies in the early stages, that I wonder what you disagree with or think about what I am saying now ? Or that I'd want you to tell me about what you feel about recent posts ? Seeing as your scum reading me it seems like I'd be your primary focus and as such, you'd be paying attention to what I post in order to look for connections / intent and things to push on.
As i believe your trying to meta read me this game, is it disgusting that I want to know what standard you hold my questioning to ?
Is it disgusting that i want to know if your connecting odd with scum, or just odd as a general statement ?
I fail to see why me wanting any of these simple things you should be doing regardless qualifies as "disgusting", nor do I appreciate you trying to blanket the questions as "disgusting ", without showing me why or how they are so.
That statement fits on it's own without my opinion on you, in point of fact, because from my POV, you are meta reading me due to these question things, and even now you are stating a total disapproval of my play, and yet when I read what your accusing and questioning me on, it lays in my early play and not my play as a whole , in conjunction, your only getting around to me now, so I want to know what made Mari more of a concern for you than me, if I am that bad from your POV.
oddly enough, the quote doesn't fit with the fact that I am null-town leaning on you. Mainly due to the fact that this is the same crap you always pull as town, and just like the other times, this post will not make any difference to your POV in all likelihood because that's just how a Ran tunnel goes, which is sad because it's the one aspect of your play I truly take issue with. Being that once you lock in, you never consider you may be wrong, or that your version of events may be so. We can talk about this more post game though.

 

[Turazrok]

Ok so for whatever reason I wasn't getting thread updates/alerts so I wasn't posting lol cuz it looked like no one else had. Real quick @rake

The reason I even considered his lack of posting scummy was because I was looking out for it from the beginning ( people not posting or rather barely posting to keep up appearances ) because BSL was in town and we talked about mafia a bit lol. So essentially like page 2.5-3

And now he's become more active since I drew attention to his lack of appearances, as rake does a good job pointing out in #261

I will hopefully put out a bit more laterrr

 

[Shun Goku Satsu Rake]

Also smashboards freaked me the fack out when i saw wavedash all over the dam place in my posts

 

[Shun Goku Satsu Rake]

mkay thank ya Turaz.

 

[ranmaru]

Except, it isn't and wasn't challenge, I'm not sure how your hung up on this. I didn't say he was scum for it, I said you could stretch it that way, I never said he was scum because it was unusual, in fact, I just said it was unusual and left it as such, your the one who has said it appeared one way, and I am the one telling you it was the other, so I'm not sure how you've jumped to "How did it being unusual possibly mean Kantrip was scum ". I explained how you could stretch it where Kantrip could have (if you take it thinking in terms of Kantrip scum) a hidden angle to being nice to me , but I never did so nor implied so, nor did I say: " And that's what made me feel odd ". I simply asked him why he was nice to me, and now you seem to think I was setting him up for something, which doesn't make any sense. Your fabricating a situation to fit what you think, when it really is as simple as I am making it. I'm asking you if it's telling because you're very hung up on it clearly, largely due to thinking I was trying to start something with Kantrip, when In all reality, if I had wanted to start something as scum, I simply would have, i would have no reason early to fear Kantrip and more to gain by actually starting something. In the scenario your creating, your creating a self fulfilling prophecy that I am scum.

I.E: I'm either scum, because I would have started something with Kantrip to create a fake scum read on him, or I'm scum because It looked that way, but I never did due to lack of ammo.

My purpose is too see why or if you think it's telling. I'm not sure why I need to tell you this, if your scum reading me on it, as clearly you are, I want you to be able to explain your case in full detail and that includes why me asking a question is telling one way or another from your perspective.

Ok ok, let me clear up one thing then. Was you asking "Kantrip, why are you being nice to me?" NOT alignment related, then? Just a question with no reason for finding scum at all? Just wondering.

Well once again, that's simply not the case, I'll keep saying this until you understand it Ran, lol.

And once again, your misreading what I intended and posted, I didn't say " Kantrip is scum because he was nice to me ", in fact, I didn't even imply as such, I said, If you wanted to, you could possibly stretch that Kantrip had a hidden scum angle in being nice to me. But I didnt' say I believed that, nor that i felt that way, in fact if i remember my own post right , you had asked me for possible scum intent and I responded with what it could be, not with what I believed it to be.

I think my question above may clear this up.

Again though, your creating a circle here: Either as scum I would have pushed him because I thought I could get away with it, but because I didn't and responded how I did, I am scum.

I think it's possible you would as scum. I don't know for sure you would have done that, which is why I'm asking you why you asked him. I'm trying to understand your purpose.

But I am doing things with it, my intent was to put a little pressure onto Badwulf, get him into the thread again and ask him stuff and see where he is at, so in point of fact I achieved exactly what I set out to do with Badwulf, and up to this point, after I get finished with re-reading him, I'll decide if my vote can be better used somewhere else, or if it can still be of use on him.

How does the length of my vote on Badwulf equate to me being scum in this scenario ?

Yet he has been in thread and has even given some reasoning and voted you. Is your vote still 'trying to garner' a reaction from Badwolf? In fact, what is your opinion of his recent actions? If you can form a read on him, why keep a vote on him (if you don't find anything upon a re-read) and I'm looking forward to you re-reading and finding a direction. Also, have you ever voted like this before as town and just left the vote on to pressure someone? Wondering why you are starting now. If you already have a read and enough content from Badwolf to form an opinion, why not just put your vote on someone else to pressure them as well? Just wondering.

Also saying:

How does the length of my vote on Badwulf equate to me being scum in this scenario ?

Has no good purpose because I didn't say that leaving it on Badwolf for a long time = scum, it fits into your whole play of not doing much in my eyes. Maybe it would be a good question if I said "You are scum for leaving your vote on Badwolf for so long". Yet me asking you if you have done this before and why you have started this if you haven't, is to find out if you really believe what you are doing is doing something, while I think it's you trying to just argue it away.

And me asking are you town does ? You and I both have our questions, and in point of fact I only asked once what they thought of me , and when slot's like Xiroey and Gaga were less then committal by saying I hadn't done anything in particular to be worth their attention, I asked them what somethings would be that would be, and that was meant in a general sense, not in a "What would alert you to me in specific".

What determines a regular amount of questions exactly ? To my knowledge there is not a bar saying : You must ask X amount of questions in order to be useful in your own reads. And in point of fact, your blanketing the questions I did ask as only in concern for myself, but again I only actually asked one specific question regarding myself, and followed up on it on a general sense of : What would put someone on your radar. Your clearly undercutting my scum-potential from your POV if you think I'd be as blunt to ask them : What can I do to avoid being noticed by you, as that would bring me into direct notice of them.

I say 'regular' meaning whatever amount really, as there isn't a bar. I just mean enough to show that you see something questionable and just question. For example, you never really gave a list of reads until I pressured you. Why didn't you release one before? Did you contribute anything worth reading you before I attacked you?

But what if I am not ? Have you considered this fully ? You seem to be buying what you yourself are selling here Ran, You think I have a hidden agenda, and as such your treating it like you know this for a fact, when you simply do not, as you are one to do as town when you tunnel them, you get tunnel vision and it clouds your ability to see any angle but the one you have created. I neither expected them to do everything , nor did I state I was going to do nothing, you asked me why and I said I don't want to be the catalyst, this by no means implies or infers that I intend to lay back and do nothing , it simply means I'm only going to pursue something and be outword about it when it suites me and when I feel that it'll help me garner reactions , reads or what have you. They could learn by example when I decided to do as such, I'm by no means bound to any time frame to show them how to create a concise case, or show them how to lay out their thoughts concisely.

I think you forget something. We all have to read you. I get you don't want to be the thing that shakes up everything, doing everything for the newbies. I understand. Yet you still have to do enough so I can get a gauge on you.

I've made my opinion clear enough , either when i have been asked or of my own volition, and all of my questions have a drive to them, even if it's just me wanting clarification on something I found odd, and when I've been asked by you why I asked those questions, I tried to clarify on my reasoning, were you unimpressed or unconvinced by what i gave you in response ? Could you lay out why you felt that way about them ?
My purpose was to see what you were drawing from it, I knew why I asked him, and I felt like the interaction between he and myself was rather cut and dry , over and done, so for you to inquire about it , meant to me you had an opinion of it, being so I asked you if it was telling from your POV that I had asked him that.
I'm clarifying a lot of things because your asking me for clarification lol. I'm not sure what you mean, do you mean in the sense that, initially I leave it very open to interpretation and only address it when asked ?
I'm not trying to fling it back on you in this way either, I just want to know where your at and why, being the accuser, you have the burden of proof to show why you think i am scum and why you think I am doing what i am, being the defender, I want to be able to concisely respond to your points or questions.
But that's your interpretation of events, you have no knowledge that i tried to hide , any more than I have proof that I was just letting stuff happen, as I have said. I posted a bit much in an IC tone seems to be the brunt of your case here, and while its' true I probably used the IC things moreso than I needed to, that doesn't make your interpretation of why I did so true.
You say your not happy with my response or my play, but to be blunt, making you happy is not my first priority nor did I realize this game was called "King Ran runs this and you best please him, else to your doom ", to compound this, you didn't seem to take any visible issue when i layed out my feelings on Turaz, nor Xiroey, so were you okay with those posts ? Did you agree with them or my points behind them ? And what of my recent postings, are you currently pulling more from now that compounds your feelings ? As it looks now, your stuck in the start of the game, when your read on me should be the sum of my play to it's entirety. So what have you disliked lately, if you dislike my play and responses.
If you are stuck in the start of the game, then In essence your just picking and choosing what to disagree with because you have a scum read on me.
Why exactly were those questions disgusting ?
Is it disgusting that I am asking you to elaborate on your feelings, which should be no real issue ?
Is it disgusting that, as the primary focus of your case lies in the early stages, that I wonder what you disagree with or think about what I am saying now ? Or that I'd want you to tell me about what you feel about recent posts ? Seeing as your scum reading me it seems like I'd be your primary focus and as such, you'd be paying attention to what I post in order to look for connections / intent and things to push on.
As i believe your trying to meta read me this game, is it disgusting that I want to know what standard you hold my questioning to ?
Is it disgusting that i want to know if your connecting odd with scum, or just odd as a general statement ?
I fail to see why me wanting any of these simple things you should be doing regardless qualifies as "disgusting", nor do I appreciate you trying to blanket the questions as "disgusting ", without showing me why or how they are so.
That statement fits on it's own without my opinion on you, in point of fact, because from my POV, you are meta reading me due to these question things, and even now you are stating a total disapproval of my play, and yet when I read what your accusing and questioning me on, it lays in my early play and not my play as a whole , in conjunction, your only getting around to me now, so I want to know what made Mari more of a concern for you than me, if I am that bad from your POV.
oddly enough, the quote doesn't fit with the fact that I am null-town leaning on you. Mainly due to the fact that this is the same crap you always pull as town, and just like the other times, this post will not make any difference to your POV in all likelihood because that's just how a Ran tunnel goes, which is sad because it's the one aspect of your play I truly take issue with. Being that once you lock in, you never consider you may be wrong, or that your version of events may be so. We can talk about this more post game though.

DANG IT RAKE WITH THIS ALMOST UNREADABLE PARAGRAPH LOL.

Ok yes I know I as the prosecutor bring the burden of proof. Yet it's odd when you phrase a question like this "Is it disgusting that _____" and you ask multiple varieties of the same question it's like yo. You are giving too many 'is it possible that ____" kind of questions. Just asking "Why exactly were those questions disgusting?" would suffice, not just go into the next few questions. I feel those were really unneeded and you have given alot of unneeded questions. Sure you and I are known to give alot but this is ALOT for no reason lol.

Now let me get to the point. The quote I gave felt disgusting to me because you seemed to be trying to say I was afraid of saying you were scum as if trying to give all these 'discontent' reasons about your play without really finding you scummy. (When I did say some of the things you did were suspicious, so why would I say that and try not to call you scum in the same post??? ) Does it still seem like I'm trying to say you are scum without saying it? Also, why did you think I would just do all that and be afraid to call you scum?

Yes I say I'm not happy about your play but I'm not saying you have to play up to me but you also have to let others READ you. You say that I'm only reading your early play, so I will ask you this: What parts of your play that you think people should know about, did I miss? Which posts show something readable that I didn't notice? Did this happen after or before I started accusing you of hiding behind your IC role?

 

[ranmaru]

Ok, that's the last wall i'm going to exchange with you, Rake. I don't want to flood the game with a ton of walls giving the newbies a hard time in reading and possibly giving disinterest. I'm going to let you have the last word and I want you to explain my questions in that final posts and don't want you to ask more questions which means I would have to reply (It is me accusing you so I want you to EXPLAIN yourself, not ask me a bunch of questions trying to find out why I'm asking them lol). If you really have a question or two just ask in a concise post because I don't want this to continue because I want some opinions from the newbies and others. If we do continue we'll only just distract ourselves from reading others. After we rein in the newbies and such we'll see how it goes. I think I got to the point of my concerns with this recent wall.

Agree?

 

[Kantrip]

Ew the wall trading is disgusting. This is a newbie game guys

Ended up staying out really late, will have to get to you tomorrow Ran.

 

[pawndidater2]

@Pwndiator: Hey man. You seem to be viewing alot but don't really say much. Having a hard time getting a word in?

Heh, no. A lot of time I'll be viewing on my phone and then a computer opens up, but I don't close the tab on my phone. It's kind of a ***** to navigate to this page on mobile. At least, on my phone.

 

[pawndidater2]

Alright, here are my reads so far.

Scum: Tuz
Null-Scum: Rake
Null: BadWolf, GaGa, Kantrip
Null-Town: Xiroey, Ran
Town: No one is above suspicion.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

Raziek replaces Mari777. Effective immediately.

 

[Raziek]

Greetings, Peons.

Reading up. I don't plan on acting the part of an IC this game, as I'm a busy guy and Ran/Rake/Kantrip seem to have been doing a marvelous job. I'll just be a player like the rest of you.

If you can't tell, I love Devil Survivor.

 

[GaGa]

GodGa's Temp Reads:

Town: Ran,
Leaning Town: Xiroey,
Null: Kantrip, Badwolf, Pawn
Leaning Scum: Tuz
Scum: Rake

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Rake: Ran, Wolf, and Kantrip already laid out a persuasive argument against you. I agree with them for the most part. I wont parrot information.


- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
In addition to the reasoning stated by the other players,
I also have my own reasoning for thinking you're scum.

1: You mentioned that you were playing somewhat 'passive' for whatever reason. Before you were called out on it your reads were minimal.
2: Before being called out on it, your input was centralized around pressuring other players after they were already being read.
3: After being called out on certain things...your game play changed. Of course you had to post more to defend yourself (which may or may not be justified), but you also started pressuring players on your own.

V V V V

If you have nothing to fear as town, why did your game play change so substantially?

If you're innocent, why do you have to go into such great depths to explain your innocent(i.e. your wall of questions defending your position against Ran, previous responses that delve deeper than simply answering the question posed)? Shouldn't it be as simple as A, B, C?

 

[Raziek]

Alright. I'm not even going to touch Rake's 299 with a 10-foot pole.

I like to take a question-oriented route to things, so let's get some dialogue going.

Ran: I trust you more than most of the cast right now. What does that tell you, and how do you think I came to that conclusion?

Short and sweet, what do you think about Rake? If you had to pick 5 key posts that form your read on him, what are they?

Kantrip: Same deal on Rake. Additionally, I want you to talk to me about Turaz. Is he scum? If so, why?

Xiroey, Turaz, Pawndidater, GaGa: I'd like your top 2 lynch choices for today, with bullet point reasoning.

 

[Raziek]

Oh hey Ninja.

I like the way you post, GaGa.

If you had to lynch someone not named Rake or Turaz, who would it be and why?

 

[Raziek]

Town: No one is above suspicion.

I'd like to inquire about this.

What prompted you to post this line? Does paranoia benefit you in some way?

Consider that mafia is a game of trust, in many ways. Is there benefit to trusting someone as a Townie? What about as scum?

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

5 to lynch.

Votecount 1.4:
GaGa [1] Xiroey
Xiroey [0]
Turazok [2] Potassium, Pawndidater
Raziek [0]
pawndidater2 [1] Turazok
Badwolf [1] Rake
Ranmaru (SE) [0]
Potassium (IC) [0]
Rake (IC) [1] Ranmaru

Not Voting: Badwolf, GaGa

 

[pawndidater2]

Alright. I'm not even going to touch Rake's 299 with a 10-foot pole.

Typo? You were 299.

Xiroey, Turaz, Pawndidater, GaGa: I'd like your top 2 lynch choices for today, with bullet point reasoning.

Rake
- Didn't put up content until he was called out for not doing so.
- Did lots of IC posts to look like he was doing something, but wasn't.
- Isn't responding well to the pressure.

Tuz
- Didn't answer questions.
- Tried to put attention on BW for no good reason.
- Also not responding well to the pressure.

Currently my vote is on Tuz but if the consensus turns to lynching Rake first, I don't have a problem with that.

 

[pawndidater2]

I'd like to inquire about this.

What prompted you to post this line? Does paranoia benefit you in some way?

Consider that mafia is a game of trust, in many ways. Is there benefit to trusting someone as a Townie? What about as scum?

I'll get to this in a minute, pizza just happened.

 

[Raziek]

Typo. Meant 289. Moving to my next class, will hit the rest of the responses shortly.

 

[GaGa]

Oh hey Ninja.

I like the way you post, GaGa.

If you had to lynch someone not named Rake or Turaz, who would it be and why?

Likely Pawn. I don't have much concrete evidence...but he seems to 'bandwagon' as opposed to coming up with his own reads.
Likewise, when pressured his answers didn't really satisfy me. He's 'OKAY' but just barely.


VOTE: RAKE

 

[Raziek]

Alright, I like Pawndidater's 305. I don't disagree with any of those reasons.

@GaGa: Are you familiar with the concept of a gambit? (pertaining to mafia specifically)

Also: Which of your reads are you MOST confident in?

 

[pawndidater2]

I'd like to inquire about this.

What prompted you to post this line? Does paranoia benefit you in some way?

Consider that mafia is a game of trust, in many ways. Is there benefit to trusting someone as a Townie? What about as scum?

While it's true that trust can be an important factor, it's also true that suspicion is equally, if not, more important. Even if I feel absolutely certain that someone is not mafia, I can't let my guard down. New evidence always pops up, and I have to retain some, if only a little, disbelief.

As for scum, a change of opinion is much harder to get. While someone who I believe to be a townie only has to slip to get my attention, scum had better have damn good reasons for what they're doing to change my thoughts on them.

The only benefit I can see to trusting someone is that their evidence will hold much more solid ground with me. Ran, whom I currently trust the most, has had perfectly legitimate reasoning and I trust his opinion. If something comes up that points to him being scum, then I might have to reconsider that, and that trust will have become a liability.

 

[GaGa]

Alright, I like Pawndidater's 305. I don't disagree with any of those reasons.

@GaGa: Are you familiar with the concept of a gambit? (pertaining to mafia specifically)

Also: Which of your reads are you MOST confident in?

Not a 'mafia' specific gambit. Care to explain?
Btw, what are your opinions thus far? Have you 'caught up' yet?


Rake.

 

[Raziek]

While it's true that trust can be an important factor, it's also true that suspicion is equally, if not, more important. Even if I feel absolutely certain that someone is not mafia, I can't let my guard down. New evidence always pops up, and I have to retain some, if only a little, disbelief.

As for scum, a change of opinion is much harder to get. While someone who I believe to be a townie only has to slip to get my attention, scum had better have damn good reasons for what they're doing to change my thoughts on them.

The only benefit I can see to trusting someone is that their evidence will hold much more solid ground with me. Ran, whom I currently trust the most, has had perfectly legitimate reasoning and I trust his opinion. If something comes up that points to him being scum, then I might have to reconsider that, and that trust will have become a liability.

While important, that's not quite what I meant.

What I wanted to get at was that forging trustful relationships can benefit both Town and scum. I get some of my best reads by choosing a mental "partner" so to speak, and bouncing reads off them. If they respond or react in a way that I don't expect or agree with, this affects my read on both parties.

On that note, that's why I don't think it benefits you explicitly to be so paranoid. That said, it helps strengthen the Town read I currently have on you. You'd have a lot less reason to be paranoid if you had a scum partner. Note that this doesn't explicitly deconfirm Indy, but I think you'd be more likely to lurk more as Indy, and I've followed your thought process well.

 

[Raziek]

Not a 'mafia' specific gambit. Care to explain?
Btw, what are your opinions thus far? Have you 'caught up' yet?


Rake.

Well, I said I wasn't going to act as an IC, but for the purposes it's relevant.

In the context of mafia, a gambit involves deliberately acting strange in order to provoke reactions to obtain reads. This could involve claiming false information (Like a cop guilty, to see who bites and jumps on the wagon), or simply acting odd.

The reason I brought this up is because you seem to be stuck on Rake's drastic shift in behavior. I can't say for certain if it's a gambit or not, but I wanted to make you aware that an abrupt change of behavior isn't necessarily scummy. In this case, it could be, because as people have brought up, Rake was rather passive earlier. Sometimes it's simply a matter of playstyle.

Trying to look more Townie is both a Town motive and a scum one. Importantly, Rake started applying more pressure and actively scumhunting, which I think is pro-Town. I don't approve of his wall-trading with Ran, nor the excessively aloof and posturing nature of his recent posts, but I think the claim that he's scum may be hasty.

I'm intentionally holding some of my cards at the moment, as I'm still forming opinions, and I don't want scum playing around my reads. T'll give you three. I think Ran is Town, I think Pawn is Town, and I think the Rake push is forming for the wrong reasons.

There's too much visible consensus on Rake. That's usually a bad sign if the person is not OBVIOUS scum. Means scum is likely on the wagon, and I doubt very strongly scum would bus Rake on D1, when Turaz is a much easier and more obtainable lynch.

I need to talk to more people before I'm sure. Yes, I'm caught up, but I'm still drawing the outlines for my "picture" of the game, so to speak. Most importantly, I need to hear from Kantrip and Xiroey. I'd also like to hear from Badwolf, but he's less on my radar at the moment.

 

[GaGa]

That makes sense...but an experienced player wouldn't make that gambit with newbies.
The risk far exceeds the reward.

 

[ranmaru]

Ran: I trust you more than most of the cast right now. What does that tell you, and how do you think I came to that conclusion?

Short and sweet, what do you think about Rake? If you had to pick 5 key posts that form your read on him, what are they?

It doesn't tell me much (about you). Just that I'm obv town. I would guess you had liked my pushes and my approach in getting my reads and thought I was genuine from all that. I wouldn't go any farther because I don't really know how you came to that conclusion, and don't want to make it easier on you. Although, can you tell me how you came to the conclusion?

I think that Rake has been hiding behind his IC role too much, for example, in his #45, he RVS votes Xiroey, yet then omgus votes Pwndiator in jest, meaning he was sticking around in RVS for a bit too long. He doesn't really say anything content related (if it is to even be considered content) until his #69. He states that he just doesn't want to be the catalyst for shaking up the content, and I can understand that, but as stated in my recent post to him, I just want to see what he's trying to do. He wasn't doing much, he then left a vote on Badwolf to just 'pressure' him. I didn't think it was good enough. I also don't like that he says that Pawn seems too easy, and states he is wary of people jumping on, yet doesn't really give an opinion of who he thinks is suspicious from getting on. Here are the 5 key posts that form my read on him:

#50

#86

#157

#158

#183

Now, you say you find the Rake wagon to form for the wrong reasons. After Rake responds, I want you to give your take on his play. I also agree that I want others to come in and make opinions because I too want a grasp of everyone before progressing. (This is why I have been poking at Xiroey for quite some time, he has given a theory about me and GaGa, and even poked at Mari777 [your slot], which was nice without having to ask for it, but I feel it's too soon to give him a town lean, without really even having an opinion on current event or even past events, as he only has a vote on GaGa for pressure as well, currently Xiroey is null for me)

I'm also still waiting for Kantrip because he had a push for Turaz and he claimed, so I'm wondering what Kantrip's thoughts are of that and his thoughts on my #206, since he has Xiroey as town.

 

[ranmaru]

Heh, no. A lot of time I'll be viewing on my phone and then a computer opens up, but I don't close the tab on my phone. It's kind of a ***** to navigate to this page on mobile. At least, on my phone.

Ah ok then, understood.

Mod please prod Xiroey

 

[ranmaru]

Going to class.

Rake, in your next post please include how I changed from Town to null-town.

 

[Turazrok]

Top 2 lynch choices
Badwolf
-Barely shows up to post inconsequential things
-when pressured immediately attempts to shift focus like in #244 along with citing he couldn't be scum because in his previous games he acts differently (wtf why I care bout that)

I'm really at a tossup on pwn right now need to go back and reread his posts, but I can still him being scummy.
He's still bandwagoning and is guilty to some of the same accusations leveled at me in #305
In addition he also puts xiroey on null-town. Xiroey had one post. One. Where does he get the confidence to put Xiroey at null-town considering he claims to trust no one?

 

[#HBC | BadWolf]

Top 2 lynch choices
Badwolf
-Barely shows up to post inconsequential things
-when pressured immediately attempts to shift focus like in #244 along with citing he couldn't be scum because in his previous games he acts differently (wtf why I care bout that)

I'm really at a tossup on pwn right now need to go back and reread his posts, but I can still him being scummy.
He's still bandwagoning and is guilty to some of the same accusations leveled at me in #305
In addition he also puts xiroey on null-town. Xiroey had one post. One. Where does he get the confidence to put Xiroey at null-town considering he claims to trust no one?

OMGUS with bad reasoning and a dash of aggro thrown in. I'm down with either Rake or Tuz lynch right now.

 

[Raziek]

We're not lynching Rake. More later possibly. Got some schoolwork to do, and Monster Hunter to play.