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New Snake Technology - No Platform Is Safe From Snake!
- Thread starter FlashingFire
- Start date
MomBomb
Smash Rookie
does the Uair have a hitbox before it cancels?
Darkshooter
Smash Ace
Oh jeez, Snake's gonna be racing to at least the top 7 in the tier list!
Zerthex
Smash Cadet
Not to be sneaky, but I was hoping I could use this at a tourney before it was known. Wasn't sure if that was legal either. Its all fair now though 
Nope.
cisyphus
Smash Ace
Fantastic use of autocancel oh my god. I'm so geeked about this. Nair and fair also work, but are 1 frame tighter in timing. Bair and Dair too, but they're two and three frames tighter respectively (good ways to train it I'd say). I seem to have better luck with using Nair, additionally. It's also a bit safer, with less landing lag if you screw up the timing (and better hitboxes for the scenario?).
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Risky
Smash Ace
This is some really cool tech that's actually worth practicing. Not sure the name fits but ya know.
Uair would be better if you were too early, Nair if you were too late.
Uair would be better if you were too early, Nair if you were too late.
ViewtifulHoe242
Smash Journeyman
i get what you were going for with the name atleast (ken combo vidjo drop tipman spike) but a snake flash sounds like something a drunk redneck uncle would do at a highschool graduation
Risky
Smash Ace
Or something from Naruto.
Everyone's a critic DX.
Lol I picked Snake Flash because of my tag and the fact that it's quick and flashy. If someone comes up with a better shorthand for Full Hop Cypher Up-Air Platform Autocancel Grab/Cypher/Whatever, let me know.
EDIT: I have a recorded match where I executed this, even though the grab missed because my opponent got pushed off the platform. I'll link it here in a day or two if you guys want.
Lol I picked Snake Flash because of my tag and the fact that it's quick and flashy. If someone comes up with a better shorthand for Full Hop Cypher Up-Air Platform Autocancel Grab/Cypher/Whatever, let me know.
EDIT: I have a recorded match where I executed this, even though the grab missed because my opponent got pushed off the platform. I'll link it here in a day or two if you guys want.
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![[TSON]](/data/avatars/l/114/114196.jpg?1360761019){kind=avatar}
[TSON]
Hella.
CUPPA CONFIRMED
CYPHER U-AIR P....UCKING PLATFORM AUTOCANCEL
CUPPA TEA. CUPPA CIGS. CUPPA GRAB. CUPPA JAB. ****. BYE.
CYPHER U-AIR P....UCKING PLATFORM AUTOCANCEL
CUPPA TEA. CUPPA CIGS. CUPPA GRAB. CUPPA JAB. ****. BYE.
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Chesstiger2612
Smash Lord
A different technique, but I feel like it alos belongs here because no platform is safe from Snake...
You can autoland your down-air on platforms. Try it on Battlefield first, fj from the ground input a dair, hold down, input a L-cancel right before you pass through the platform, if you do it right you will instantly land on the platform.
Many characters have some kinds of autoland moves, it just means that their lowest body part which triggers landing moves down faster than you move up.
Most characters can't really use it though because their isn't a hitbox before they land and the only application is a slightly faster waveland on place on platforms.
However, this doesn't hold true for a few moves, including Snake's dair and MK's nair.
In Snake's case, the downward movement of the foot of the second/third hit (depending on timing and platform height) will make you land, so you still have the hitbox of the first (and sometimes second). It might be useful for techchasing and punishing platform drops while moving out of range. After the autoland dair you just go through your landing lag (so don't forget to L-cancel) and follow up with whatever you want.
You can autoland your down-air on platforms. Try it on Battlefield first, fj from the ground input a dair, hold down, input a L-cancel right before you pass through the platform, if you do it right you will instantly land on the platform.
Many characters have some kinds of autoland moves, it just means that their lowest body part which triggers landing moves down faster than you move up.
Most characters can't really use it though because their isn't a hitbox before they land and the only application is a slightly faster waveland on place on platforms.
However, this doesn't hold true for a few moves, including Snake's dair and MK's nair.
In Snake's case, the downward movement of the foot of the second/third hit (depending on timing and platform height) will make you land, so you still have the hitbox of the first (and sometimes second). It might be useful for techchasing and punishing platform drops while moving out of range. After the autoland dair you just go through your landing lag (so don't forget to L-cancel) and follow up with whatever you want.
Chromewhip
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Jul 8, 2014
- Messages
- 36
seems like a good combo starter! Good find!
0mart
Smash Apprentice
Wow , good tech Fire! , I´m looking forward to see more of those in the future, and I´m going to be in the lab maybe tomorrow with my partner so we can help with the Uthrow chaingrab Thread.
I've been figuring out some frame data for this technique in Debug mode. I think I'll make a follow-up up video over winter break that showcases it.
cisyphus
Smash Ace
Yo let's call it the CHAI
Cypher
Hop
Aerial
Interrupt
Swag.
Cypher
Hop
Aerial
Interrupt
Swag.
Updated. Idk about you guys, but I like being able to attack someone on a platform with frame advantage.
BND
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Jul 13, 2014
- Messages
- 174
Hrrm; the frame data exposes a flaw (so I'm posting it here instead of reddit), mainly that there's a 3 frame delay between the end of shieldstun and the letting-go-of-cypher hitbox. Missing the second cypher hitbox doesn't affect your timing at all, meaning that there's no audio/vibrational cue to inform you as to whether or not the cypher actually hit. That being said, there's enough time for your opponent to buffer a roll (which is a valid option select in the event that they suspect a C4 stick or a down aerial aimed towards their side of the platform, and often lowers your hitbox and can make the cypher miss), or if they really suspect the Up-B, they can actually buffer a shielddrop (Holding down all the way between 4 and 6 frames before shieldstun ends works on Dolphin), in which case they have a good amount of time to do whatever they want while you're trying to get off of the Cypher: in Ganon's case, he can up air for a punish/reversal of positions.
Note that this is also theorycraft, given that I'm not actually next to a Wii, so I don't know how effective buffering a shielddrop would be. Still, it suffers from the same flaws C4 and down air does, namely being vulnerability to a (buffered) roll, and hitting a non-shield seems to give less reward than the aforementioned platform punishes (With down aerial, you can at least try to push the opponent off if they don't shield DI, and in the worst case scenario you can try to edge cancel the down aerial (which actually generates more frame advantage, though it puts you in a subpar position to capitalize)/get off the platform altogether once you see something's wrong), so it may be a good idea to be cautious with this.
EDIT: Also late (since it doesn't seem like you frequent the Snake boards anymore hence the lack of ping), but @ Chesstiger, the problem with FJ down air is that it still suffers from the landing lag down air does, and doesn't autocancel.
EDIT2: Hrrm; on PS2 and Joshy's story, at least, Snake can FH->stick->down/neutral air and have his aerial hitbox come out, or he can airdodge afterwards. The former may be a good option select of sorts, given that it covers spotdodge, and if the opponent tries an OoS option the aerial might be able to catch them not blocking. On Joshy, the down air can be executed as late as frame 39.
I can imagine FJ->stick (miss) ->down/neutral air->grab -> uthrow -> jump ->fair back onto the platform (or off the stage, if possible) -> DJ onto top platform if available -> C4 when they get up -> restick to be a good punish to a spotdodge, but I don't know if the frame data and hitbox data works out.
Note that this is also theorycraft, given that I'm not actually next to a Wii, so I don't know how effective buffering a shielddrop would be. Still, it suffers from the same flaws C4 and down air does, namely being vulnerability to a (buffered) roll, and hitting a non-shield seems to give less reward than the aforementioned platform punishes (With down aerial, you can at least try to push the opponent off if they don't shield DI, and in the worst case scenario you can try to edge cancel the down aerial (which actually generates more frame advantage, though it puts you in a subpar position to capitalize)/get off the platform altogether once you see something's wrong), so it may be a good idea to be cautious with this.
EDIT: Also late (since it doesn't seem like you frequent the Snake boards anymore hence the lack of ping), but @ Chesstiger, the problem with FJ down air is that it still suffers from the landing lag down air does, and doesn't autocancel.
EDIT2: Hrrm; on PS2 and Joshy's story, at least, Snake can FH->stick->down/neutral air and have his aerial hitbox come out, or he can airdodge afterwards. The former may be a good option select of sorts, given that it covers spotdodge, and if the opponent tries an OoS option the aerial might be able to catch them not blocking. On Joshy, the down air can be executed as late as frame 39.
I can imagine FJ->stick (miss) ->down/neutral air->grab -> uthrow -> jump ->fair back onto the platform (or off the stage, if possible) -> DJ onto top platform if available -> C4 when they get up -> restick to be a good punish to a spotdodge, but I don't know if the frame data and hitbox data works out.
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cisyphus
Smash Ace
I think all of those are fair points that BND raises, but in all my time playing Snake—or any character, for that matter, any time I've been below someone as they're above me and shielding, they haven't rolled. It's just not a natural reaction because they're watching you sitting right below them as if waiting to react to their movement. Rolling gives you a long visual cue as well as lots of vulnerability frames to act on, on top of it plainly being bad on platforms as most rolls are longer than platforms are (meaning you're even closer allowing even easier punishes). Shield dropping may be more common, but it doesn't really cover the C4 stuff so I dunno. It might help against this but then, who's gonna shield drop this? It's so fast and unconventional and shield dropping is still kind of uncommon in competitive play that it doesn't necessarily debunk this tech.
What I'm more interested in is the "if they're tall enough" bit of the explanation: Ganon is really tall: how short is "too short" for this to work? I'd imagine one could find out simply by noting the lowest point of Cypher's hitbox and cross-referencing individual character shields' heights against that to see if they intersect.
What I'm more interested in is the "if they're tall enough" bit of the explanation: Ganon is really tall: how short is "too short" for this to work? I'd imagine one could find out simply by noting the lowest point of Cypher's hitbox and cross-referencing individual character shields' heights against that to see if they intersect.
That's a pretty darn small window. Honestly it would be kind of silly if the opponent were in shieldstun/hitlag for the entirety of the initial hit to the autocancel. If the opponent escapes here, imo they deserve it, but I doubt you'll find anyone that's aware of this situational technique enough to prepare for that option.
Nope. Full hop Dair definitely autocancels. You can actually fastfall toward the end of the animation; I do it frequently to catch missed techs with an immediate jab reset.
True and potentially very useful.
If the stick misses, it has additional endlag and you can't put out an aerial before landing from the full hop.
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BND
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Jul 13, 2014
- Messages
- 174
Somehow I thought buffered rolls (not shield drops; that was an extreme case, though I suspect that given that it provides the option select of a spotdodge against a C4, and considering that you have 3 frames to input the down button, it'd be a valid choice if the opponent bothered to think of doing it) were relatively common and easy to perform, though I may be wrong on that. Can't seem to get it to work on Dolphin, but then again I'm probably on the Wifi safe version. Might get around to taking a look at it next week.
As for the autocancel remark, I was under the assumption that Chesstiger referred to a FH down air from under a platform onto the platform, where only one hit comes out (For a more explicit construction: PS2, stand under the platform, FH, first frame in the air, start a down aerial). Maybe I'm wrong on my interpretation though: a full hop down air without a platform in between definitely does autocancel.
On a side note, whiffed stick and regular C4 drop seem to both have the same cancel point (Frame 27 after pressing down B), though the aforementioned C4 coverage is a lot less useful than I thought it'd be. YS gives you a good amount of time to do both a C4 and a dair, but on PS2 there's only a 4 frames of leeway to do both actions.
(I also neglected to mention that back air gives an additional frame of leeway, though the followups are considerably fewer in number.)
As for the autocancel remark, I was under the assumption that Chesstiger referred to a FH down air from under a platform onto the platform, where only one hit comes out (For a more explicit construction: PS2, stand under the platform, FH, first frame in the air, start a down aerial). Maybe I'm wrong on my interpretation though: a full hop down air without a platform in between definitely does autocancel.
On a side note, whiffed stick and regular C4 drop seem to both have the same cancel point (Frame 27 after pressing down B), though the aforementioned C4 coverage is a lot less useful than I thought it'd be. YS gives you a good amount of time to do both a C4 and a dair, but on PS2 there's only a 4 frames of leeway to do both actions.
(I also neglected to mention that back air gives an additional frame of leeway, though the followups are considerably fewer in number.)
cisyphus
Smash Ace
I'm back with data collected! Here's my process:
Plug in four controllers
Select four different characters
Go to Training Room
Arrange Characters respective to their HUD displays
Activate the camera lock in Debug mode (L+D-Pad Left)
Pause outside of Debug mode to set the camera to the overview function (L on Player 1)
Activate Debug mode again
Press Start to allow move buffering
Hold L on all four controllers
Use Z to advance four frames forward
Voila!: https://www.mediafire.com/?poa7o0sm9itnqkx
Pardon the rather haphazard quality of the images: no capture card and no dolphin means this is the best I've got, but it certainly reveals useful information, namely that there are three basic tiers of shield height:
Tall (2+ squares tall in these images): Bowser, Donkey Kong, Ganondorf, Mewtwo
Medium (Between 1-2 squares): Luigi, Peach, Captain Falcon, Wolf, Fox, Falco, Zelda, Sheik, Link, Toon Link, Lucario, Charizard, Samus, Zero Suit Samus, Pit, Dedede, Ike, Marth, Roy, R.O.B., Mr. Game & Watch, Snake, Sonic
Short (1- square): Wario, Mario, Yoshi, Diddy, Ice Climbers, Pikachu, Jigglypuff, Squirtle, Ivysaur, Lucas, Ness, Kirby, Metaknight, Olimar
This works to confirm some of my worries regarding the hype FlaFi's giving this: Ganondorf is a really tall character with an equally tall shield (certainly the top five tallest in the game) and thus serves as a poor subject for testing purposes.
Visually, one can rank shields from tallest to shortest as:
1: Luigi > Peach > Wario > Mario
2: Bowser > Donkey Kong > Yoshi* > Diddy Kong
3: Wolf ~ Captain Falcon ~ Falco > Fox
4: Sheik > Zelda > Link > Ice Climbers
5: Ganondorf > Mewtwo > Lucario > Toon Link
6: Ivysaur > Squirtle > Jigglypuff > Pikachu
7: Charizard > Samus ~ Zero Suit Samus > Lucas
8: Pit > Ness > Metaknight > Kirby
9: Dedede > Ike ~ Marth > Roy
10: R.O.B. > Snake > Mr. Game & Watch > Olimar
11: Sonic
If someone with access to better images (BND?) could compare the taller characters (Bowser, DK, Sheik, Zelda, Ganon, M2, D3, Ike, and Marth) in hopes of finding the shortest of them to pinpoint precisely which characters this would actually work on, that'd be fantastic. I can theorize that the minimum height would have to be that of Snake in his Cypher aerial hang minus his shins (because you cancel Cypher into AC UAir when snake is at this point relative to the platform), so it might actually be even lower than these 9 characters. I'm pretty doubtful that it'll hit the "short" group, though.
Plug in four controllers
Select four different characters
Go to Training Room
Arrange Characters respective to their HUD displays
Activate the camera lock in Debug mode (L+D-Pad Left)
Pause outside of Debug mode to set the camera to the overview function (L on Player 1)
Activate Debug mode again
Press Start to allow move buffering
Hold L on all four controllers
Use Z to advance four frames forward
Voila!: https://www.mediafire.com/?poa7o0sm9itnqkx
Pardon the rather haphazard quality of the images: no capture card and no dolphin means this is the best I've got, but it certainly reveals useful information, namely that there are three basic tiers of shield height:
Tall (2+ squares tall in these images): Bowser, Donkey Kong, Ganondorf, Mewtwo
Medium (Between 1-2 squares): Luigi, Peach, Captain Falcon, Wolf, Fox, Falco, Zelda, Sheik, Link, Toon Link, Lucario, Charizard, Samus, Zero Suit Samus, Pit, Dedede, Ike, Marth, Roy, R.O.B., Mr. Game & Watch, Snake, Sonic
Short (1- square): Wario, Mario, Yoshi, Diddy, Ice Climbers, Pikachu, Jigglypuff, Squirtle, Ivysaur, Lucas, Ness, Kirby, Metaknight, Olimar
This works to confirm some of my worries regarding the hype FlaFi's giving this: Ganondorf is a really tall character with an equally tall shield (certainly the top five tallest in the game) and thus serves as a poor subject for testing purposes.
Visually, one can rank shields from tallest to shortest as:
1: Luigi > Peach > Wario > Mario
2: Bowser > Donkey Kong > Yoshi* > Diddy Kong
3: Wolf ~ Captain Falcon ~ Falco > Fox
4: Sheik > Zelda > Link > Ice Climbers
5: Ganondorf > Mewtwo > Lucario > Toon Link
6: Ivysaur > Squirtle > Jigglypuff > Pikachu
7: Charizard > Samus ~ Zero Suit Samus > Lucas
8: Pit > Ness > Metaknight > Kirby
9: Dedede > Ike ~ Marth > Roy
10: R.O.B. > Snake > Mr. Game & Watch > Olimar
11: Sonic
If someone with access to better images (BND?) could compare the taller characters (Bowser, DK, Sheik, Zelda, Ganon, M2, D3, Ike, and Marth) in hopes of finding the shortest of them to pinpoint precisely which characters this would actually work on, that'd be fantastic. I can theorize that the minimum height would have to be that of Snake in his Cypher aerial hang minus his shins (because you cancel Cypher into AC UAir when snake is at this point relative to the platform), so it might actually be even lower than these 9 characters. I'm pretty doubtful that it'll hit the "short" group, though.
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BND
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Jul 13, 2014
- Messages
- 174
There's also the minor problem of shield tilting and shield decay, as well as the time at which cypher is let go of and how far away from the shield's center Snake's cypher hitbox is. Seems somewhat minor, though it can cause problems in obvious ways.
Regardless, a vague list for shield height/size is as follows (I started to realize something was wrong starting from Tlink, because apparently while recording this some of the shields were tilted (or are naturally tilted). I appended each character to each list according to their appearance order from B + right taunt (except for Ike; I botched his first picture and had to retake it), so take that as you will):
Gigabowser>bowser
DK = Ganon
Dedede = M2
Marth = Charizard = ROB>=
Falcon = Falco = Luigi = Pit = Samus = ZSS = Ike
Fox = Link = Lucario = Peach = Roy = Snake = Wolf = Zelda = Sheik
Gaw = Sonic = Tlink = Wario
Lucas = Mario = Ness = Olimar = Ivysaur = Icies
Diddy = MK = Squirtle
Jiggs ~ Yoshi
Pikachu
Kirby
If I remember correctly from last night, the cypher barely hits wario if his shield isn't tilted and the cypher's relatively centered.
My setup was a bit different from the one listed above. Camera lock mode doesn't work consistently on dolphin, so I picked warioware, used zoom, made Snake roll to the left edge of the top right platform and the other character roll to the right edge (or tried to; sometimes I forgot or something went wrong, but it shouldn't be a big issue, I think), and recorded shield at 4 frames. There may be a small margin of error regarding the fact that I used a few frames of shield to execute the roll (which wasn't frame perfect), but after roughly half the cast I waited a bit before recording shield size. Realistically, though, Snake's hitting you with Cypher first; you should expect your shield to decay at least a little
The setup was designed so that you can open your favorite image utility that can scroll through folders, and compare. If you don't have one/are too lazy to download one/etc., you could always open up paint or something and see what the top pixel number is (I didn't do this, obviously). Also included is Snake's lowest possible Cypher hitbox on Warioware (23 frames from the middle platform, up B from the ground) and his highest (27 frames from the middle platform, up B from the ground). The grounded version of cypher was used since its distance/frame is smaller, reducing the margin of error for "height mod distance/frame" silliness.
That being said, link's here: http://www.mediafire.com/download/8p98h7ah24utnm2/Shield_heights.zip.
Regardless, a vague list for shield height/size is as follows (I started to realize something was wrong starting from Tlink, because apparently while recording this some of the shields were tilted (or are naturally tilted). I appended each character to each list according to their appearance order from B + right taunt (except for Ike; I botched his first picture and had to retake it), so take that as you will):
Gigabowser>bowser
DK = Ganon
Dedede = M2
Marth = Charizard = ROB>=
Falcon = Falco = Luigi = Pit = Samus = ZSS = Ike
Fox = Link = Lucario = Peach = Roy = Snake = Wolf = Zelda = Sheik
Gaw = Sonic = Tlink = Wario
Lucas = Mario = Ness = Olimar = Ivysaur = Icies
Diddy = MK = Squirtle
Jiggs ~ Yoshi
Pikachu
Kirby
If I remember correctly from last night, the cypher barely hits wario if his shield isn't tilted and the cypher's relatively centered.
My setup was a bit different from the one listed above. Camera lock mode doesn't work consistently on dolphin, so I picked warioware, used zoom, made Snake roll to the left edge of the top right platform and the other character roll to the right edge (or tried to; sometimes I forgot or something went wrong, but it shouldn't be a big issue, I think), and recorded shield at 4 frames. There may be a small margin of error regarding the fact that I used a few frames of shield to execute the roll (which wasn't frame perfect), but after roughly half the cast I waited a bit before recording shield size. Realistically, though, Snake's hitting you with Cypher first; you should expect your shield to decay at least a little
The setup was designed so that you can open your favorite image utility that can scroll through folders, and compare. If you don't have one/are too lazy to download one/etc., you could always open up paint or something and see what the top pixel number is (I didn't do this, obviously). Also included is Snake's lowest possible Cypher hitbox on Warioware (23 frames from the middle platform, up B from the ground) and his highest (27 frames from the middle platform, up B from the ground). The grounded version of cypher was used since its distance/frame is smaller, reducing the margin of error for "height mod distance/frame" silliness.
That being said, link's here: http://www.mediafire.com/download/8p98h7ah24utnm2/Shield_heights.zip.
cisyphus
Smash Ace
So this'll consistently hit roughly two-thirds of the cast? Not bad at all, and definitely something to keep in mind as well.
The data is strong with these two.
Cool finds, guys.
Cool finds, guys.