New OOS option as Peach and Yoshi

[TheTurtle]

So if your peach and Yoshi in PM if you press down on the c stick and up on the control stick(tap jump on) at the exact same frame you go into a double jump, but since they dip when they double jump they stay on the ground and there is little to no lag to this. Your shield takes from 14 to 18 frames to be able to act out of with non OOS actions, so you can cancel those frames by using this technique and do tilts, smashes and specials faster out of it. Also if you angle the control stick you do a slide somewhat similar to a wavedash so you can slide when canceling the shield. This works faster than wavedash out of shield since you immediately go into a standing position. And since its a double jump Yoshi has 1 frame of super armor which may be useful.

 

[BILL?]

I think the peach boards found this, it's a cool tech. You can sort of dsmash out of shield with it. Which is hilarious. Especially if they were holding down to fastfall.
Maybe ness, mewtwo, Lucas can do it? They can Djc so it might work...

 

[GMaster171]

Only Yoshi and Peach have enough of a dip to do it OOS (tho they can land on platforms if timed correctly)

 

[Badge]

So if your peach and Yoshi in PM if you press down on the c stick and up on the control stick(tap jump on) at the exact same frame you go into a double jump, but since they dip when they double jump they stay on the ground and there is little to no lag to this.

There's 0 lag on the landing, the whole sequence takes 6 frames (5 jumpsquat, 1 for the DJ).

This technique isn't exactly new, Peach could do it in Melee as could Yoshi, but obv not oos. It's much easier now, though, primarily because you can pseudo-buffer jumps with the Control-Stick (if you have been holding up on the Control-Stick with Tap Jump on for 3 or less frames before you could jump and are still holding up on the frame you can jump, you'll jump on the first possible frame). Due to this Jump->Tap Jump already makes the technique easy. The inputs suggested above, though, also abuse Brawl C-Stick mechanics in a pretty nifty way (you have to press down on the C-Stick within 4 frames after Tap jumping, not on the same frame):
C-Stick down counts as A+Control Stick down for 1 frame. A doesn't do anything in this case (we're in jumpsquat), but as the game sees the Control-Stick as down for 1 frame it treats it as if it had been pushed up again on the next frame, when in reality it's just hold up. Now due to Tap Jump pseudo-buffering you always DJ on the first frame possible as long as the Control-Stick is held up. (Yoshi/Peach jumpsquat is 5 frames, 1 of which is used for the jump input, 1 for the C-Stick input, so Control-Stick is held up at most 3 frames before the DJ can occur)

To get a perfect DJ the timing window for both the C-Stick method and just using Jump->Tap Jump is 4 frames each, but pressing Up for the Tap-Jump one frame late gives you a 1 frame slower DJ that still lands laglessly, while one frame late on the C-Stick results in a DAir (unless you'd hold A during the whole sequence, in that case it'd give you the same result). I find Jump->Tap Jump to be much easier personally, but that's partially just be because I'm doing it all the time for Lucas DJCs anyway.

 

[TheTurtle]

There's 0 lag on the landing, the whole sequence takes 6 frames (5 jumpsquat, 1 for the DJ).

This technique isn't exactly new, Peach could do it in Melee as could Yoshi, but obv not oos. It's much easier now, though, primarily because you can pseudo-buffer jumps with the Control-Stick (if you have been holding up on the Control-Stick with Tap Jump on for 3 or less frames before you could jump and are still holding up on the frame you can jump, you'll jump on the first possible frame). Due to this Jump->Tap Jump already makes the technique easy. The inputs suggested above, though, also abuse Brawl C-Stick mechanics in a pretty nifty way (you have to press down on the C-Stick within 4 frames after Tap jumping, not on the same frame):
C-Stick down counts as A+Control Stick down for 1 frame. A doesn't do anything in this case (we're in jumpsquat), but as the game sees the Control-Stick as down for 1 frame it treats it as if it had been pushed up again on the next frame, when in reality it's just hold up. Now due to Tap Jump pseudo-buffering you always DJ on the first frame possible as long as the Control-Stick is held up. (Yoshi/Peach jumpsquat is 5 frames, 1 of which is used for the jump input, 1 for the C-Stick input, so Control-Stick is held up at most 3 frames before the DJ can occur)

To get a perfect DJ the timing window for both the C-Stick method and just using Jump->Tap Jump is 4 frames each, but pressing Up for the Tap-Jump one frame late gives you a 1 frame slower DJ that still lands laglessly, while one frame late on the C-Stick results in a DAir (unless you'd hold A during the whole sequence, in that case it'd give you the same result). I find Jump->Tap Jump to be much easier personally, but that's partially just be because I'm doing it all the time for Lucas DJCs anyway.

Thanks for the info. I'll try to see where I can take this technology in the future

 

[TheTurtle]

I think the peach boards found this, it's a cool tech. You can sort of dsmash out of shield with it. Which is hilarious. Especially if they were holding down to fastfall.
Maybe ness, mewtwo, Lucas can do it? They can Djc so it might work...

I tried with Ness, Mewtwo, and Lucas I didn't work since they don't dip when they double jump

 

[GMaster171]

There actually is landing lag, its just soft landing as if you just empty hopped. It ends up being 10 frames due to this, 5 jumpsquat, assuming 1 for DJ, 4 for soft landing.

Still 5 frames faster to act than shield drop.

 

[Badge]

There actually is landing lag, its just soft landing as if you just empty hopped. It ends up being 10 frames due to this, 5 jumpsquat, assuming 1 for DJ, 4 for soft landing.

No, there's no landing lag. I guess you need to either have a certain fall speed or need to fall for a certain amount of time before you get landing lag. I don't know, but in either case you have literally 0 frames of lag when DJ-landing or landing right at the apex of your jump.

Edit: Turns out it's vertical velocity that determines no impact landing (see below, thx GMaster).

 

[TheTurtle]

When I

No, there's no landing lag. I guess you need to either have a certain fall speed or need to fall for a certain amount of time before you get landing lag. I don't know, but in either case you have literally 0 frames of lag when DJ-landing or landing right at the apex of your jump.

Yeah I c stick buffered a spot dodge after doing it and the spot dodge came out pretty fast. I'll try to record the tech, but I don't have a capture card so I'll probably use my phone to record it.

 

[BILL?]

Wait so this negates the 4 frame landing lag? As in they never leave the ground?? Huh.

 

[Soft Serve]

All DJC characters can do things similar to this but most of them can't dip that low. Other characters can do it on platforms with decent timing though

I have an example from like 2 years ago that I was messing around with, People did stuff like this off of platforms in melee as well and its been known since they fixed the static frame landing after 1.0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKnFTLiejFw#t=60 i wasn't showing the lag canceling and just going straight into a taunt/smash.

Its useful but impractical OoS imo.

 

[TheTurtle]

Here's a video of the tech.
Yoshi \Peach OOS tech: http://youtu.be/4MOT3PNYSiw

 

[GMaster171]

There are very few "no impact" landings (0 lag). Nearly every time you land from anything, there is a small amount of lag. In this case is the exact same thing as just landing anyway, so it still holds the 4 frames of lag. Also remember 4 frames is 1/15th of a second, so trying to visualize how many frames is rather impractical .

 

[TreK]

How many frames is a wavedash oos ? It's jump squat + hard landing right ?

Yoshi did have something similar in Brawl, called Dragon Dashing. The difference was that he had to do a nair after the DJ because it lowered slightly his hurtbox, just enough to force him to land. Maybe some other character can profit of this ?

 

[GMaster171]

yea, most WDOOS are around 15 frames, or up to 19 for Bowser, so around the same as shield drop just with a little movement added. DJL is still faster than shield dropping to do anything that cant be done OOS anyway, its just a weird technique to do :/

 

[TheTurtle]

I found that there's a frame of armor in the move. Might be useful in some wau

 

[TheTurtle]

And also it slides like a wavedash and lasts around 6 frames possibly. A few of my yoshi comboes start with up tilt so this is useful for me since I can up tilt faster OOS while sliding. This may not apply to others play style, but I was able to shield my friends attack DJL toward him then do an up tilt. So this technique has some usefulness to it

 

[1FD]

There's 0 lag on the landing, the whole sequence takes 6 frames (5 jumpsquat, 1 for the DJ).

you can pseudo-buffer jumps with the Control-Stick (if you have been holding up on the Control-Stick with Tap Jump on for 3 or less frames before you could jump and are still holding up on the frame you can jump, you'll jump on the first possible frame).

Can you explain this better or clearer? I think I get it but long sentence brainslode me. Is that just like buffering jump with C-Stick Up OOS but with control-stick?

Can't everyone like Falco do this with Bair and Luigi with Nair and Shiek with Nair and stuff too or is that something different?
Like what I mean is they rise THROUGH a platform and use the attack and it just STOPS them there
So they don't DO the attack but instead just land on the platform lagless.

Is that a thing?

 

[TheTurtle]

Can you explain this better or clearer? I think I get it but long sentence brainslode me. Is that just like buffering jump with C-Stick Up OOS but with control-stick?

Can't everyone like Falco do this with Bair and Luigi with Nair and Shiek with Nair and stuff too or is that something different?
Like what I mean is they rise THROUGH a platform and use the attack and it just STOPS them there
So they don't DO the attack but instead just land on the platform lagless.

Is that a thing?

So if you watched the video I made yoshi and peach go directly into a double jump. My theory on why this happens is that cstick down is basically Down+A so it inputs down. Since your holding up on the Control Stick it basically goes Up(first tap jump) then down(cstick down) then Up 1 frame after the cstick down. This is why they double jump.

 

[Badge]

There's a pseudo-buffer on Tap Jump. Normally, if you want to jump on the first frame possible, you have to time your jump input on that frame. With Tap Jump, you can buffer your jump by up to 3 frames as long as you keep holding up. Holding up usually is not a problem ofc, as pressing up on the Control Stick for less than 4 frames is difficult in itself. It's probably there, as Tap Jumping isn't as precise as jumping with a button (the speed of the input depends on the Control-Stick used and it's harder to concern, when the game registers the input).
In Melee, this pseudo-buffer existed in some form, but didn't work after jumps - I don't know the specifics here, this is just what I gathered from like 1 minute of testing. In Project:M, it does work after jumps and thus makes DJ-landing or perfect DJCs with Lucas much easier. That's the gist of it.

The method Turtle suggested is really just a fancy way to use the Control-Stick pseudo-buffer. Whether it's easier or harder for most people than simply jumping with Y/X and then Tap jump, I can't say for sure, it probably depends on what you want to do out of the DJ-landing.

 

[GMaster171]

Asked around and found that if you land with a low enough velocity, you will go into a no impact landing (0 lag). This would by why DJL has no lag at all. I was unaware of this before.

Taking that into account, its around 7 or 8 frames before being active when doing a DJL out of shield (5 frames jump, 1 frame DJ, 1 frame momentum lag, couple of frames to make it to the ground)