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New Mechanic: The Rage Effect

TTTTTsd

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If you think THIS is bad, people play Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo. Not only does your damage go up when you're behind in rounds, your damage is flat out RANDOM period(random between set numbers so it's reasonable to a degree, like specials will never do outright bad damage.) I don't think this is incredibly detrimental if it's predictable in any shape or form because it's more linear than a lot of other comeback mechanics or game design identical to it.

Not saying this is great but, it has application due to its predictability. High on % and you're fighting an enemy who's at 0? Do a small combo and then force him offstage earlier, using higher KB to KO/Gimp their recovery easier. It probably works both on paper and in-game.
 
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Praxis

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@Rayzk, Ctrl-F on this page for the word "Random".

YOU inserted that word when paraphrasing me, and then have continued to accuse me of calling it random and keep going on long explanations of math to prove that nothing is random.

I never claimed it was random. YOU USED THE WORD.

You and Praxis keep making it seem like the results are "inconsistent, random and unpredictable".
I don't like your posts you try to confuse people into not liking the game.

This isn't making kill % inconsistent. they are certainly NOT random.
All uses of the word random are from you, except in my post in which I say:
"I don't think it's random. "

Stop strawmanning me and lying about what I'm saying, and then accusing me of spreading disinformation. It's dishonest and scummy.
 
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ToadsterOven

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I said that the Revenge meter is a bad thing, but it's not THAT bad because the game counter-rewards the attacker as well. It could be worse.

Don't twist my words just because I gave detail.

I said X-Factor was tame because I didn't realize it dominated the metagame as much as it did. Me getting corrected HURT your position.


Do you actually think comeback mechanics are good game design??



If anything, I'd say it would make it harder to combo. I don't think the effect is going to be big enough to make a huge difference in this case though.
You seem to have an agenda in this, because at this point you are just clearly manipulating quotes to try to make me look bad. Incredible.

I never said any of the things you listed here. You are taking quotes out of context.

The person I was replying to was saying that a mechanic can't be bad if it is in a good game.

Everything in this post is a straight up strawman attack. You are acting as if I made an argument I didn't, and then attacking it. And then accusing me of lying.
Yeah I'm not liking your smarter than thou attitude towards everyone despite us showing you why you are wrong! And I did see you corrected as soon as I hit the reply button in my previous post so I will admit to that. I don't see why comeback mechanics are hurtful but what do I know compared to an insufferable Brawl BRoomer who talks down to us plebeians as though he's smarter than us in his own mind? Do us all a favor and LEAVE if we are hurting your ego that much! It will do us all some good. Even if you never used words like inconsistent or random, we at least got the impression that is what you at least thought based on you and @ kupo15 kupo15 posts. I say this respectfully as well. :)
 
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Tristan_win

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ok

I want to just lay out the facts here

FROM 0% TO ABOUT 70% KNOCKBACK DIFFERENCE FROM RAGE AND KNOCKBACK INFLUENCE/VECTOR INFLUENCE IS ABSOLUTELY TINY AND UNNOTICEABLE

YOU STILL HAVE YOUR COMBOS

edit: big letters so people will read
I'm sorry for dragging you back in here but from what I've read so far in this thread it makes me think that decay effect knockback more then rage at least until 100%. If that's true then this effect matches very little as the majority of the time in Brawl decay didn't effect anything noteworthy but killing percentages.
 

KuroganeHammer

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For the FOOLS who aren't reading:

Zelda @ 150% uthrow vs 0% Bowser: 48 KB

Zelda @ 0% uthrow vs 0% Bowser: 41 KB

The difference with Bowser at 50% is a mere 2 points in knockback/launch speed different at the same percentages.

pls frondz, my sanity is at stake
 

Gawain

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Real competitive games either don't have them or they are very limited.
Okay, I'm sorry man, but that is just patently false. Arguably the biggest fighting game currently in the competitive circuit, MvC3 (highest Evo enrollment and highest number of viewers for a few years now), has Xfactor, which is about as gigantic of a comeback mechanic as they come. You can literally kill all three of the other guys characters once you are down to your last guy easily once you hit confirm. Arguing that comeback mechanics have no place in competitive fighters, or even more so that they don't even exist, isn't just wrong, it's ridiculous.
 

Chiroz

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@Rayzk, Ctrl-F on this page for the word "Random".

YOU inserted that word when paraphrasing me, and then have continued to accuse me of calling it random and keep going on long explanations of math to prove that nothing is random.

I never claimed it was random. YOU USED THE WORD.




All uses of the word random are from you, except in my post in which I say:
"I don't think it's random. "

Stop strawmanning me and lying about what I'm saying, and then accusing me of spreading disinformation. It's dishonest and scummy.

Inconsistent and unpredictable put together is random. Something that isn't random is predictable.

The one being dishonest is you. I don't understand why you are going out of your way to misinform people about this game and make it seem like the game has things you CAN'T prove it has.

I do have an agenda. I hate people who misinform others. It's something I have a problem with. It's not you personally.




Honestly if you have no data regarding something and refuse to understand how something works why try to convince others that it's something it's not?

You can say you don't like the mechanic. You can say it makes the game too complex. You can say you don't like how it rewards heavier characters or how it rewards survival on top of aggressiveness. All of those are valid reasons to dislike it. Heck you can say you don't like it JUST because you don't want to learn something new.

But outright misinforming people and saying it makes the game unpredictable, unreliable and inconsistent (ergo: Random) is literally just the same as lying through your teeth. I am sorry if it offends you but it's the truth. None of those arguments are actually true, and as such they are lies.
 

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I don't really get the outrage about this, maybe it's because I'm looking from outside of the tournament community looking in but it doesn't seem like the difference in the numbers is significant enough to make a huge deal in most situations.

Sometimes I wonder if there is a mechanic that won't cause some from of outrage around here.
 

Zork

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I'm sorry for dragging you back in here but from what I've read so far in this thread it makes me think that decay effect knockback more then rage at least until 100%. If that's true then this effect matches very little as the majority of the time in Brawl decay didn't effect anything noteworthy but killing percentages.
Some chaingrabs in Brawl would only work after the throw was decayed a bit but other than that you are correct.

However it is worth noting that as you said, decay became extremely significant once players were at kill percent. A kill move being fresh or not decided matches.

Speaking of which, what is the decay like in Smash 4? Is it the last 0-10 moves like Brawl?
 
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kupo15

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You can definitely KNOW consistently if your combo will work at said %. It might work, might not. But you will DEFINITELY know after the first time you try it. You and Praxis keep making it seem like the results are "inconsistent, random and unpredictable". They are neither of the 3 and that statement is a lie. Lying just causes problems and makes people not understand what's going on.
I think you are taking what we are saying way to exaggerated. We are not saying that this is breaking the game but mere stating an observation how this mechanic has negative implications which is not a lie. We are not lying to try and create panic like you think we are. I don't see how slandering us like this when we are trying to have a conversation is helpful to the discussion. I've recognized a valid point in how this could add something new and positive to the game but I still believe it has negative implications and wish you would attempt to understand what we are trying to say instead of resorting to insults.

We are not saying the results are inconsistent but that the its adding yet another inconstant factor to the game which is true

The point is inconsistent stuff or stuff that only works in certain situations is in every fighting game. The best players figure out a way around it (unless it's OP then it gets banned).
And I'm not disagreeing with you nor do I think unpredictable things are necessarily a bad thing. Heck, Smash bros is fundamentally rooted in a more unpredictable sandbox fighting game which is why Traditional Fighting players are afraid to touch Melee competitively and that is the reason why I love Smash.

I'm not saying such a mechanic is terrible by itself. If you design a game that changes based on your % that is fine but that is not Smash Bros. Smash bros is a game designed to changed based on your opponent's % which is a very different thing so it should be clear that adding a mechanic that is based on your % is counter to that of how Smash was designed.
 
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Black Mantis

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I don't really get the outrage about this, maybe it's because I'm looking from outside of the tournament community looking in but it doesn't seem like the difference in the numbers is significant enough to make a huge deal in most situations.

Sometimes I wonder if there is a mechanic that won't cause some from of outrage around here.
Not unless its stuff that makes the game more like melee (aka wavedashing and l canceling). The melee bias is strong around here.
 

KuroganeHammer

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but it doesn't seem like the difference in the numbers is significant enough to make a huge deal in most situations.
The numbers are tiny, but there are so many people who want to just... be cancer about a game they STILL HAVEN'T PLAYED YET, so they're busy crying about it here.
Speaking of which, what is the decay like in Smash 4? Is it the last 0-10 moves like Brawl?
0-9*

And yes, decay affects knockback, but the rest is like melee.
 

Chiroz

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I think you are taking what we are saying way to exaggerated. We are not saying that this is breaking the game but mere stating an observation how this mechanic has negative implications which is not a lie. We are not lying to try and create panic like you think we are. I don't see how slandering us like this when we are trying to have a conversation is helpful to the discussion. I've recognized a valid point in how this could add something new and positive to the game but I still believe it has negative implications and wish you would attempt to understand what we are trying to say instead of resorting to insults.



And I'm not disagreeing with you nor do I think unpredictable things are necessarily a bad thing. Heck, Smash bros is fundamentally rooted in a more unpredictable sandbox fighting game which is why Traditional Fighting players are afraid to touch Melee competitively and that is the reason why I love Smash.

I'm not saying such a mechanic is terrible by itself. If you design a game that changes based on your % that is fine but that is not Smash Bros. Smash bros is a game designed to changed based on your opponent's % which is a very different thing so it should be clear that adding a mechanic that is based on your % is counter to that of how Smash was designed.




There's a difference between trying to create discussion with truth and doing it with lies.

You can say "this will make calculating knockback way too complicated for any given scenario, most player's won't realize when they can KO or combo due to how many variables are being added".

But you know if you say that it won't have as much of an impact as saying: "the game is unreliable, unpredictable and inconsistent". All 3 of those arguments are lies. I don't care how you put it. If you want to create argument it's as simple as stating the truth instead of lying.



The game is getting more complex for competitive standards. It's NOT getting more inconsistent or more unreliable, it's simply becoming more complex. You are entitled to your opinions whether you like it or not, but players who read these threads should be entitled to their opinions too, they shouldn't be misinformed to make them share your opinion.
 
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Praxis

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Inconsistent and unpredictable put together is random. Something that isn't random is predictable.

The one being dishonest is you. I don't understand why you are going out of your way to misinform people about this game and make it seem like the game has things you CAN'T prove it has.

I do have an agenda. I hate people who misinform others. It's something I have a problem with. It's not you personally.




Honestly if you have no data regarding something and refuse to understand how something works why try to convince others that it's something it's not?

You can say you don't like the mechanic. You can say it makes the game too complex. You can say you don't like how it rewards heavier characters or how it rewards survival on top of aggressiveness. All of those are valid reasons to dislike it. Heck you can say you don't like it JUST because you don't want to learn something new.

But outright misinforming people and saying it makes the game unpredictable, unreliable and inconsistent (ergo: Random) is literally just the same as lying through your teeth. I am sorry if it offends you but it's the truth. None of those arguments are actually true, and as such they are lies.
I have repeated back to you how the mechanic works and demonstrated that I understand it. You are convincing yourself that I am saying something I am not and puffing your chest about it.

You can say you don't like the mechanic. You can say it makes the game too complex. You can say you don't like how it rewards heavier characters or how it rewards survival on top of aggressiveness. All of those are valid reasons to dislike it
This is basically everything I said.


This is the part that I need to address with you, now. And if you will extend the same courtesy, I will try my best to do it politely. I am not misinformed nor am I trying to misinform people.
Inconsistent and unpredictable put together is random. Something that isn't random is predictable.

Something that isn't random is not inherently predictable. Can you predict where a terrorist is going to strike next? No, but it's not random.

I'm saying that the algorithm for knockback is so complex in Smash 4 that it will seem inconsistent. There are so many factors that go in to where a person is going to end up now. Stale move negation + Rage + VI means that you will almost never see the same knockback twice. To see the same knockback, you AND your opponent would have to have the same percentage, your opponent would have to hold the same direction, and you would have had to have used a move the same number of times on a stock.

I'm saying that compared to Melee and Brawl, all of these mechanics have created an atmosphere where knockback is no longer consistent in that the concept of a move's Kill Percent no longer exists. I think that this detracts from player's interactions with each other, because it's harder to determine what the threat of their respective options is.


Does that make more sense?

I don't think it's random, I think it's created so many factors that it is going to muddle player interactions. This is just one more on top of the pile.
 

Tristan_win

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Some chaingrabs in Brawl would only work after the throw was decayed a bit but other than that you are correct.

However it is worth noting that as you said, decay became extremely significant once players were at kill percent. A kill move being fresh or not decided matches.

Speaking of which, what is the decay like in Smash 4? Is it the last 0-10 moves like Brawl?
Yeah I was thinking about chain grabs as well as certain tilt combos when I said the majority. I do agree with you that decay can effect matches greatly which is why learning how rage works is going to be just as essential to competitive players now. Thinking back to Brawl if Sheik tried to usmash a meta knight at 90% with di he will most likely live but with this new system in place if Sheik herself is at 100% then it could make up for the extra 3% making so even with DI meta knight will die. Thinking like that will be critical for both parties and will help better separate the best from the worst.

So far decay is looking very similar to Brawl if not identical but nothing is absolutely confirm yet as the person mainly working on it has only the demo.

Edit: Of course if KI/VI was in brawl meta knight would really die something closer to 143% for a usmash but that's something we are all going have to clinch our jaw for as sakurai slaps us with the other side of his d.
 
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TTTTTsd

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Eh, it'll seem inconsistent but people will average it out in their heads and find a way around it. Sometimes it's best to just use it as a general rule rather than going for precision anyways.

I still stand by my theory that if you do a SHORTER and SMALLER combo that ends in them going offstage you can use this as an aid when your opponent comes in fresh. You just have to generalize and go "At what % and above would it be a good idea?"

I also argue that kill moves are kind of less prominent in this game to begin with, I just call them "moves that knock people offstage" because I have to follow up a lot of the time and gimp anyways.

Don't mention vertical KO moves they're just not a good idea.
 
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DraginHikari

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The numbers are tiny, but there are so many people who want to just... be cancer about a game they STILL HAVEN'T PLAYED YET, so they're busy crying about it here.
Believe me as someone who'd like to get into the game further this time around and haven't been able to in the past. It's definitely... frustrating to watch.
 

kupo15

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I never said the game is unreliable, unpredictable and inconsistent. I said that this adds another element of unreliability to the game which is a true statement, is it not?
 
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TTTTTsd

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Believe me as someone who'd like to get into the game further this time around and haven't been able to in the past. It's definitely... frustrating to watch.
Don't let it discourage you. Really, don't. Passion fuels every scene more than anything else, if you let that go, well....yeah.
 

Praxis

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Okay, I'm sorry man, but that is just patently false. Arguably the biggest fighting game currently in the competitive circuit, MvC3 (highest Evo enrollment and highest number of viewers for a few years now), has Xfactor, which is about as gigantic of a comeback mechanic as they come. You can literally kill all three of the other guys characters once you are down to your last guy easily once you hit confirm. Arguing that comeback mechanics have no place in competitive fighters, or even more so that they don't even exist, isn't just wrong, it's ridiculous.
I'm arguing that "comeback" mechanics are anticompetitive. It doesn't mean that a game can be competitive despite it, however.

Random factors are bad for competitive games, but Poker is still competitive.

Comeback mechanics are bad for competitive games, but Marvel vs Capcom 3 is still competitive.

A bad mechanic doesn't necessarily spoil the whole game. Wobbling is the result of a badly designed mechanic, but Melee is still a great game.


I'll admit, I was definitely wrong in my phrasing- there ARE competitive games that have comeback mechanics. I stand by the statement that they are bad for competition, however.

If Chess, Starcraft, or Poker had comeback mechanics ("player without a queen can move pawns two spaces", or "players who have lost their home base can rebuild for free", or "the player with the shortest chip stack gets half the ante"), it wouldn't make the games better.

In fact, I can provide you a fun example:

Monopoly, under the rules that the company puts out, is a 1-2 hour game.

However, most players play with house rules that include comeback mechanics (money for landing on free parking, for example).

Monopoly under house rules is usually a 3-4 hour game.


Comeback mechanics aren't good for games, but it doesn't automatically make the game bad if it has one.

I don't like this mechanic. It doesn't automatically make Smash 4 bad though. It looks like the effect is small.
 

Cactusblah

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This is a terribly designed mechanic. It's counter-intuitive to punish players for playing well, avoiding attacks, and staying at lower percentages. It would be unfortunate for this to make the difference in a match by robbing a player of a kill because he was at 59% instead of 60%. Are we going to start purposely taking damage for certain kills to happen?

That being said, it seems like a minor difference, but still shouldn't be in the game. It's not unthinkable for this to be patched out of the game (along with vectoring) if enough feedback were provided to Nintendo. Developers patch games all the time to improve player satisfaction of the gameplay.
 

Praxis

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Yeah I'm not liking your smarter than thou attitude towards everyone despite us showing you why you are wrong! And I did see you corrected as soon as I hit the reply button in my previous post so I will admit to that. I don't see why comeback mechanics are hurtful but what do I know compared to an insufferable Brawl BRoomer who talks down to us plebeians as though he's smarter than us in his own mind? Do us all a favor and LEAVE if we are hurting your ego that much! It will do us all some good. Even if you never used words like inconsistent or random, we at least got the impression that is what you at least thought based on you and @ kupo15 kupo15 posts. I say this respectfully as well. :)
I'd really appreciate if you would try reading and actually discussing the content of what I posted. Do you disagree with what I wrote about comeback mechanics? If so, why? I am not trying to insult you in trying to correct you, I am making an honest tempt to communicate on this topic.
 

TTTTTsd

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Comeback mechanics are a mixed big but honestly this one, while again it's not great, has applicable uses perhaps but also doesn't do TOO much. It's only gonna reward people who are smart with it and...well, don't get hit.

I like to look at silver linings. This could've been X Factor.
 

Chiroz

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I have repeated back to you how the mechanic works and demonstrated that I understand it. You are convincing yourself that I am saying something I am not and puffing your chest about it.



This is basically everything I said.


This is the part that I need to address with you, now. And if you will extend the same courtesy, I will try my best to do it politely. I am not misinformed nor am I trying to misinform people.



Something that isn't random is not inherently predictable. Can you predict where a terrorist is going to strike next? No, but it's not random.

I'm saying that the algorithm for knockback is so complex in Smash 4 that it will seem inconsistent. There are so many factors that go in to where a person is going to end up now. Stale move negation + Rage + VI means that you will almost never see the same knockback twice. To see the same knockback, you AND your opponent would have to have the same percentage, your opponent would have to hold the same direction, and you would have had to have used a move the same number of times on a stock.

I'm saying that compared to Melee and Brawl, all of these mechanics have created an atmosphere where knockback is no longer consistent in that the concept of a move's Kill Percent no longer exists. I think that this detracts from player's interactions with each other, because it's harder to determine what the threat of their respective options is.


Does that make more sense?

I don't think it's random, I think it's created so many factors that it is going to muddle player interactions. This is just one more on top of the pile.



About your terrorist example. If the attack is not random then someone with all the information at hand CAN predict when the attack will be, otherwise it's random. In your example the person "predicting" doesn't have enough information to predict it, if he had he could. All the information you need is available to you in Smash.



The problem is now you are saying "it will seem inconsistent". Yes to the players who don't play Smash 4 it will seem inconsistent just the same as DI seems inconsistent to a person who doesn't play Brawl: "Why did my hit sent you right but it sent you left before?" "Why did it kill you earlier but not now?"

For players who know Smash 4, they will learn this mechanic and know it's 100% consistent and predictable. It will never seem inconsistent at all. They will just learn with time what kills and when. And like most players, they will have a "feel" for the mechanic and ballpark it.

You understand, because I know you aren't stupid, that when you say things such as "this makes the game inconsistent and unpredictable" there is at least 1 person who will read that and believe it as soon as he reads it. This person won't understand that you meant "it will seem inconsistent to the uninformed noob", he will literally believe you mean the game is now random.

As such would you please think about those people who will read your posts and take it to heart before you post? Just try to keep your posts to as much factual data as possible instead of throwing out terms and words that will just confuse everyone reading the thread.

I don't mind whether you don't like the mechanic or not. As I said everyone is entitled to their own opinion. The problem is when you try to sway others to your opinion by using "theories" and claiming them as facts, even if you thought everyone understood you were just posting them as theories.

If you want to express your discontempt towards a certain mechanic do it only with actual facts and numbers. Like in the VI discussion, VI is a completely different formula than DI yet everyone is crying it's making combos worse. They have literally 0 proof they are worse, for all you know, they are better. It all depends on numbers we still DON'T know for sure. Saying it's worse without proof or evidence (like you did in this thread) just creates panic and misinforms people. Please stop doing that.



Anyways, good players, with time, will learn the mechanic and use it in their favor. They will consistently know what to do when their rage is at a certain level and that's fact.




Also, I will extend an apology. Sorry for attacking you. I truthfully have a problem against people who misinform others, even if it's not on purpose. It's part of my personality. It's nothing personal truthfully. It just makes me rage a bit. Sorry about that.
 
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Praxis

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About your terrorist example. If the attack is not random then someone with all the information at hand CAN predict when the attack will be, otherwise it's random. In your example the person "predicting" doesn't have enough information to predict it, if he had he could. All the information you need is available to you in Smash.



The problem is now you are saying "it will seem inconsistent". Yes to the players who don't play Smash 4 it will seem inconsistent just the same as DI seems inconsistent to a person who doesn't play Brawl: "Why did my hit sent you right but it sent you left before?" "Why did it kill you earlier but not now?"

For players who know Smash 4, they will learn this mechanic and know it's 100% consistent and predictable. It will never seem inconsistent at all. They will just learn with time what kills and when. And like most players, they will have a "feel" for the mechanic and ballpark it.

You understand, because I know you aren't stupid, that when you say things such as "this makes the game inconsistent and unpredictable" there is at least 1 person who will read that and believe it as soon as he reads it. This person won't understand that you meant "it will seem inconsistent to the uninformed noob", he will literally believe you mean the game is now random.

As such would you please think about those people who will read your posts and take it to heart before you post? Just try to keep your posts to as much factual data as possible instead of throwing out terms and words that will just confuse everyone reading the thread.

I don't mind whether you don't like the mechanic or not. As I said everyone is entitled to their own opinion. The problem is when you try to sway others to your opinion by using "theories" and claiming them as facts, even if you thought everyone understood you were just posting them as theories.

If you want to express your discontempt towards a certain mechanic do it only with actual facts and numbers. Like in the VI discussion, VI is a completely different formula than DI yet everyone is crying it's making combos worse. They have literally 0 proof they are worse, for all you know, they are better. It all depends on numbers we still DON'T know for sure. Saying it's worse without proof or evidence (like you did in this thread) just creates panic and misinforms people. Please stop doing that.



Anyways, good players, with time, will learn the mechanic and use it in their favor. They will consistently know what to do when their rage is at a certain level and that's fact.




Also, I will extend an apology. Sorry for attacking you. I truthfully have a problem against people who misinform others, even if it's not on purpose. It's part of my personality. It's nothing personal truthfully. It just makes me rage a bit. Sorry about that.
Definitely appreciate the change in tone.

The difference between this and DI is that DI has consistent knockback. You always know how far DI is going to send you. Between VI and Rage, knockback becomes much more fluid and variable. I don't like how I feel that will affect gameplay.

Hopefully, it won't be that bad in practice as each of these mechanics looks individually small in impact, but I have been feeling for the last week of playing the demo that knockback was inconsistent and it was affecting my combo game and ability to predict if an attack would kill. Learning about VI and Rage in the last two days has made a LOT of sense of it, but it still becomes quite difficult to judge, and I think they are poor mechanics (particularly Rage).

Melee had a consistency in knockback. Fox usmash at 90% on Ganondorf would always send him the same distance- only the angle would be adjustable. But in this game, it's much more variable and a ton of factors influence it. It's more than just fear of change- I think not being able to know kill percents is detrimental to interaction. We'll see how the game evolves, though.
 

TTTTTsd

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I think it's more a matter of breaking out and getting used to the increased variables. So long we've been used to specific things and set factors, and now it's being thrown away, but I don't see it as outright bad design. I feel like it's more a matter of just grasping the individual factors one at a time and then combining them to fully expand your knowledge

TL;DR we'll get used to it and our minds will slowly become more open, ideally.
 

Tristan_win

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Things to think about before trying to kill someone
What percentage is my enemy at?
How close to the blast zone can I hit them from?
Can they survive with proper KI/VI? (this use to be DI)
How decay is my attack?
What percentage am I at?

I think that's the order of importance when its going to come down to kill someone so really we only added one more factor and it plays a much smaller role then everything else when figuring how to kill someone.
 
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Chiroz

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Things to think about before trying to kill someone
What percentage is my enemy at?
How close to the blast zone can I hit them from?
Can they survive with proper KI/VI? (this use to be DI)
How decay is my attack?
What percentage am I at?

I think that's the order of importance when its going to come down to kill someone so really we only added one more factor and it plays a much smaller role then everything else when figuring how to kill someone.




I would say it's the same for combo potential only eliminating step 2 and maybe eliminating step 4 depending on character and/or attack.
 

DownWitDaWaveDash

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  • God forbid we have a new mechanic to help make KO's a little easier based on our damage percentages which can also potentially help someone who's not having a good day!

guys, im not playing good today, so give me a handicap even if its an ever so slight one

this may not be "drastic" or anything, but its still silly. I liked when comebacks were all skill and adaptation. Thats one of the main things I liked about smash bros
 

kupo15

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I think it's more a matter of breaking out and getting used to the increased variables. So long we've been used to specific things and set factors, and now it's being thrown away, but I don't see it as outright bad design. I feel like it's more a matter of just grasping the individual factors one at a time and then combining them to fully expand your knowledge

TL;DR we'll get used to it and our minds will slowly become more open, ideally.
Its bad design for a Smash game because Smash is fundamentally designed to constantly change by how your moves act based on your opponent's %. Even though this mechanic makes the game always changing there is still some element of control you have here because things only change when you hit your opponent so you are responsible for that change. If you don't hit your opponent your moves don't change. Furthermore when you hit your opponent you get direct feedback of how your moves are changing.

With Rage this is not the case. When you take damage your moves are changing without you getting direct feedback of how they are changing. This is what not allows you to be able to predict how your moves will act thus making it harder to combo or do what you want to do.

I think the main issues here are this. Smash 4 is introducing VI and now Rage, two mechanics that physically alter the way your moves act without your control. Before the only thing your opponents could control is influence the trajectory of your moves, that's it. Now they can affect the angle, the strength through VI (without hitstun compensation) and to an extent the strength again by damaging you (which you don't get feedback to feel how its changing). Now there is literally no aspect of your moves you can 100% rely on to ground yourself with.

The game is giving your opponent more defensive options yet its removing or not giving you any offensive options in return to fight it. No more dash dancing, no wavedash, no l canceling, air dodging out of tumble etc...It wouldn't be as bad if you were given more movement options and offensive options to balance out how much defensive options they are always adding.
 

Black Mantis

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Its bad design for a Smash game because Smash is fundamentally designed to constantly change by how your moves act based on your opponent's %. Even though this mechanic makes the game always changing there is still some element of control you have here because things only change when you hit your opponent so you are responsible for that change. If you don't hit your opponent your moves don't change. Furthermore when you hit your opponent you get direct feedback of how your moves are changing.

With Rage this is not the case. When you take damage your moves are changing without you getting direct feedback of how they are changing. This is what not allows you to be able to predict how your moves will act thus making it harder to combo or do what you want to do.

I think the main issues here are this. Smash 4 is introducing VI and now Rage, two mechanics that physically alter the way your moves act without your control. Before the only thing your opponents could control is influence the trajectory of your moves, that's it. Now they can affect the angle, the strength through VI (without hitstun compensation) and to an extent the strength again by damaging you (which you don't get feedback to feel how its changing). Now there is literally no aspect of your moves you can 100% rely on to ground yourself with.

The game is giving your opponent more defensive options yet its removing or not giving you any offensive options in return to fight it. No more dash dancing, no wavedash, no l canceling, air dodging out of tumble etc...It wouldn't be as bad if you were given more movement options and offensive options to balance out how much defensive options they are always adding.
You enjoy saying things that aren't true or can easily be refuted by facts mentioned earlier don't you? Dash dancing has been confirmed.
ok

I want to just lay out the facts here

FROM 0% TO ABOUT 70% KNOCKBACK DIFFERENCE FROM RAGE AND KNOCKBACK INFLUENCE/VECTOR INFLUENCE IS ABSOLUTELY TINY AND UNNOTICEABLE

YOU STILL HAVE YOUR COMBOS

edit: big letters so people will read

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
 

kupo15

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You enjoy saying things that aren't true or can easily be refuted by facts mentioned earlier don't you? Dash dancing has been confirmed.
Apparently I do...according to you and you are picking one thing from that whole post to refute and come up with that blanket statement? Really?

Firstly I heard it wasn't in or at least in an effective form. If it is then I'll take that statement back.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3i3VqY6-0jk

Yes he did "dash dance" but if you think that does anything great you are mistaken I was referring to it being the viable and important spacing tool it used to be in 64 and Melee which it isn't. I guess I should have clarified. Hey did you know you can waveland in this game? Its "technically" in the game.
 

Joe73191

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I don't like this. However it applies to everyone so it is kind of balanced. So what does that make Lucario now? Has his mechanic changed at all? It reminds me of Lucario in PM's turbo mode. Everyone gets Lucario's mechanic again.
 

yume_nikki

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Seriously, I’m tired of this.

I read the competitive subforum in order to learn, just like hundreds of lurkers. Smashboards is a wonderful source of information, where pretty much all the new mechanics and techniques are discovered and posted first. I can’t be thankful enough to all these people who, through testing and analyzing data, find out new mechanics. They’re really those who make the metagame advance.

Sadly, not everybody is willing to make meaningful contributions. Every time there is a relevant discovery, people complain from the very first page of the post, instead of exploring the possibilities and implications of the finding. Claiming how the changes are highly detrimental to the metagame the same day they’re discovered, barely with any tournament data, is by no means a positive contribution. Explaining how the game should be to fit your personal tastes isn’t even relevant.

This kind of pointless discussion goes on in every page of the thread, making harder to find useful data or analysis (for example, any Aerodrome post in this thread) and giviing a really bad impression to people entering the competitive scene. It’s obstructing the development of the metagame, rather than helping. And I’m pretty sure that everybody here wants to see how competitive Smash 4 finally turns out.


tl;dr: Finding new mechanics and exploring their applications to create optimal strategies will develop the metagame. Your subjective opinion won’t.
 

Werner Herzog

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Pardon me if this veers off the topic at hand, but I'm a little confused about how this change would hurt competitive play - assuming that's what the issue is, since at lower skill levels stuff like this and VI would be either irrelevant or just intuitive. Anyway, my interpretation of how competitive viability in a game works is that stronger players are rewarded for knowing the ins and outs of said game's intricate mechanics and are able to implement this knowledge quickly in high-pressure circumstances to gain an advantage. In other words, what separates great players from good ones, in Smash or in any competitive game really, is split-second adaptability.

If the numbers attached to this were truly random, then of course I could understand the issue, but since they seem to scale consistently, then it just means there is yet another variable to keep track of when predicting knockback, KO percentages, etc etc. But shouldn't adding more variables be a good thing? Instead of dismissing this as something that assists weaker players - I'll come back to that too - shouldn't we be thankful that high-skill players will now have another layer of depth to assess when approaching their opponents? It seems to me like increased complexity would actually aid those who are constantly on their toes and working out what tactic would be best in the specific situation they're in. At first, of course, managing all these factors will be overwhelming. But this change seems intuitive and consistent enough that after the hundreds or thousands of hours dedicated players will no doubt put in, they will indeed be able to juggle the numbers and predict a move's outcome.

...Or any number of potential outcomes, since the argument I'm seeing a lot of, both here and in the VI thread, is that it takes control partially away from you and that's what leads to reliable strategies not working. I can only really see this as a good thing though, because quality competitive play doesn't require reliability. If the result of, say, a charged Fsmash is influenced by freshness, rage factor, and whether or not an opponent uses proper VI in response, then that doesn't mean the outcome is random, it just means that you will need to be flexible enough to adapt to a variety of outcomes.

As for it rewarding weaker players by being a comeback mechanic, I personally see it fundamentally differently. This isn't a revenge meter per se, and Smash isn't the kind of fighting game where you're just whittling away at an opponent's HP. In fact, If you're playing a 2-stock match, it's actually the leading player - the one who scores the first KO - who will first have the mixed blessing of Rage. Against a weaker player, they'll be able to take advantage of the increased knockback to get their opponent off the stage quickly - which is, in my eyes, where the game seems most inclined to reward high level play.

On a somewhat related note to that last point, it seems clear now that we have to think outside of the box when it comes to this game. A lot of the negativity here seems to stem from changes seeming counter-intuitive to longtime series fans, and it's true that this is not Smash as we used to know it. IMO, those worried about matches lasting longer because of VI or becoming uneven when one player is at a higher percent need to start getting reckless and going against old instincts to find new strategies. For example, with this game's buffed recoveries, more predictable airdodging, and larger blast zones, how has aggressive offstage play not become much more widespread? I have to believe that if people were getting the early KOs now possible (yes, even at lower percentages and with VI) by chasing opponents to the edge and bottom of the screen, they wouldn't be freaking out so much about something like this.

Oooof, that escalated into a rant. My apologies, I hope there's a point in there somewhere.
 
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Chiroz

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Pardon me if this veers off the topic at hand, but I'm a little confused about how this change would hurt competitive play - assuming that's what the issue is, since at lower skill levels stuff like this and VI would be either irrelevant or just intuitive. Anyway, my interpretation of how competitive viability in a game works is that stronger players are rewarded for knowing the ins and outs of said game's intricate mechanics and are able to implement this knowledge quickly in high-pressure circumstances to gain an advantage. In other words, what separates great players from good ones, in Smash or in any competitive game really, is split-second adaptability.

If the numbers attached to this were truly random, then of course I could understand the issue, but since they seem to scale consistently, then it just means there is yet another variable to keep track of when predicting knockback, KO percentages, etc etc. But shouldn't adding more variables be a good thing? Instead of dismissing this as something that assists weaker players - I'll come back to that too - shouldn't we be thankful that high-skill players will now have another layer of depth to assess when approaching their opponents? It seems to me like increased complexity would actually aid those who are constantly on their toes and working out what tactic would be best in the specific situation they're in. At first, of course, managing all these factors will be overwhelming. But this change seems intuitive and consistent enough that after the hundreds or thousands of hours dedicated players will no doubt put in, they will indeed be able to juggle the numbers and predict a move's outcome.

...Or any number of potential outcomes, since the argument I'm seeing a lot of, both here and in the VI thread, is that it takes control partially away from you and that's what leads to reliable strategies not working. I can only really see this as a good thing though, because quality competitive play doesn't require reliability. If the result of, say, a charged Fsmash is influenced by freshness, rage factor, and whether or not an opponent uses proper VI in response, then that doesn't mean the outcome is random, it just means that you will need to be flexible enough to adapt to a variety of outcomes.

As for it rewarding weaker players by being a comeback mechanic, I personally see it fundamentally differently. This isn't a revenge meter per se, and Smash isn't the kind of fighting game where you're just whittling away at an opponent's HP. In fact, If you're playing a 2-stock match, it's actually the leading player - the one who scores the first KO - who will first have the mixed blessing of Rage. Against a weaker player, they'll be able to take advantage of the increased knockback to get their opponent off the stage quickly - which is, in my eyes, where the game seems most inclined to reward high level play.

On a somewhat related note to that last point, it seems clear now that we have to think outside of the box when it comes to this game. A lot of the negativity here seems to stem from changes seeming counter-intuitive to longtime series fans, and it's true that this is not Smash as we used to know it. IMO, those worried about matches lasting longer because of VI or becoming uneven when one player is at a higher percent need to start getting reckless and going against old instincts to find new strategies. For example, with this game's buffed recoveries, more predictable airdodging, and larger blast zones, how has aggressive offstage play not become much more widespread? I have to believe that if people were getting the early KOs now possible (yes, even at lower percentages and with VI) by chasing opponents to the edge and bottom of the screen, they wouldn't be freaking out so much about something like this.

Oooof, that escalated into a rant. My apologies, I hope there's a point in there somewhere.


People who are actually playing the game have been seen as having a more aggressive offstage game. And people are being gimped left and right in streams. Matches lasting as little as 1-2 minutes isn't uncommon to see.

I agree with all of your post wholeheartedly. It seems to me that it's people who haven't played the game the one's who speak out of fear of losing their edge who just want to throw mud without any factual data or actual experience at the game and see what sticks in other players minds because this game is changing things.

I agree that every post made should be based on facts and how to apply said mechanics/technicalities on the yet unknown meta of the game.




You are right that this game is adding mechanics which add to its complexity and it's depth. Player's with higher understanding of these mechanics will more options at their disposal because they will be able to analyze and predict knockbacks correctly and thus they will have an upper advantage. One could argue there is such as thing as too much complexity, or that there is a point where blindly adding learning curves just takes away from the depth instead of adding to it. I agree, there is a fine line at which that happens, but this mechanic in no way crosses that line. It's barely noticeable and it's actually quite easy to learn.
 
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