New Characters for Project M Discussion Thread (Voting Closed)

[Thane of Blue Flames]

It just seemed like a good way to please the people who like the Falcondorf play style while also satisfying those who want a more unique Ganondorf with a sword.

The primary concern is design and balance, not that.

PMDT found a way to make Ganondorf a lot more unique and even included his sword in a hilarious, cool way without compromising his playstyle or design. I think we've reached a fair compromise already.

 

[_Ganondorf_]

this. you give ganon regular access to a sword and it's going to make his established gameplay completely redundant.

I think you are looking at it the wrong way.
Sure Ganon plays a spacing game and giving him access to sword moves that function exactly the same would be redundant, if they do that they might as well give him all sword moves.

But it can be much more than just adding range to space with.

Let's take Fair as an example,
In this theoretical sword stance one of the moves that change is Fair;
Fist Fair would be stronger and slightly faster and would hit above Ganon more. Sword Fair would be weaker and slightly slower but would cover a lot more distamce in front of Ganon but not above.

Also let's take Fsmash:
Fist Fsmash is strong comes out (relatively) quick and has little lag to it. Sword Fsmash would have a lot of start up and endlag but would have a large over head swinging hitbox that would be stronger than the fist Fsmash.

Same logic can be applied Nair- slower but covers more area, Up smash- slower covers more area, down smash- same as up smash, Uptilt can be a standard up tilt for juggles etc.

The possiblities are endless. And I would recommend using Ashingda's Triforce mod as a reference. It shows some balance can be achieved between 2 almost completely different move sets (like Zelda and Sheik) and also how to completely change Ganon's moveset to sword and magic with some Hand to hand can work just as good if not better than what we currently have. And even at its most extreme it still "feels" like you are playing the same old Ganon.

 

[_Ganondorf_]

The primary concern is design and balance, not that.

PMDT found a way to make Ganondorf a lot more unique and even included his sword in a hilarious, cool way without compromising his playstyle or design. I think we've reached a fair compromise already.

It isn't good enough yet imo. It's better and the PMDT did an amazing job so far but I still think it can be improved upon further. even if he never gets sword moves I still think different Upsmash/down smash, throw animations etc. can still add more to the character. And again a sword stance change can be just like Samus' Ice beam stance: new fair, new Upsmash and different proportions on other moves like Fsmash, missiles, down tilt. Same logic in design can be applied to Ganon. I truley can't see the difference in it's possible application, and it can be balanced quite easily I'm sure. If anyone can do it it's the PMDT.

 

[Zzuxon]

Could someone please PM me information about this leak?

 

[Deleted member]

I think the new Ganondorf is awesome. Just right, imo.

 

[XStarWarriorX]

I'd just like to say that a certain character in that leak looked very much unpolished compared to the other. I'm not saying that they're not both going to make it in, but I myself have gotten farther into projects and decided to drop them damn near completion just because I didn't like how they turned out.

Don't take anything leaked for granted is all I'm saying.

I'm also sad to hear you guys really want to drop tallying the votes but I can also understand why. I might continue to do them by myself if I find time (as this has been the biggest problem for me and I'm sure the rest of you). Finding the motivation to do so after a couple of characters were leaked like this can also be difficult. But there are still more slots left for them to potentially fill over time and for that reason I think this thread still has a reason to exist. Maybe the voting should go since there are not many slots left to fill but WTH if I can find some time here and there I'll go through and count them still.

I'm gonna say what i wanted to tell pwnzor but retracted, but now im gonna say it.

Im getting the feeling, I may be wrong, but im getting the feeling that when people say this, a character they wanted didn't make it in and are hoping that they scrap characters they dont like and replace them with the character they want in, like a DK char for example.

Well guess what, the PMDT is a team, not a single person, I doubt they'd drop everything when they even put voicework into the character and nearly finished both, if they were gonna scrap they wouldn't even make it that far into testing. anyway the leak suggested about four characters, two that are up in the air, but the fourth will probably be in as well. I'm fine with them closing if they wish to.

 

[Deleted member]

According to the new CSS layout in 3.5, it looks like they can nicely fit in 4 more characters, so they may be planning to stop there.

 

[Draco_The]

They just gave him his OoT cape reflector and his OoT float. He's only missing the projectile.

 

[ThePlacidPlatypus]

According to the new CSS layout in 3.5, it looks like they can nicely fit in 4 more characters, so they may be planning to stop there.

I doubt that they'll let the layout determine things, especially since they can always change it.

 

[JayTheUnseen]

Guys,I'd like to post some moveset ideas soon,but how do I use spoiler tags?It'll be more organized and clutter up the page a lot less if I use them.

 

[Niko Mar]

It isn't good enough yet imo. It's better and the PMDT did an amazing job so far but I still think it can be improved upon further. even if he never gets sword moves I still think different Upsmash/down smash, throw animations etc. can still add more to the character. And again a sword stance change can be just like Samus' Ice beam stance: new fair, new Upsmash and different proportions on other moves like Fsmash, missiles, down tilt. Same logic in design can be applied to Ganon. I truley can't see the difference in it's possible application, and it can be balanced quite easily I'm sure. If anyone can do it it's the PMDT.

Yeah, even if they don't adjust the exact properties of the moves, I'd still like to see new animations: such as having his Up-Smash altered to involve magic or a sword. His N-air is also unfitting for the character in my opinion, along with wizard's foot (don't care if I get any hate for thinking this).

I'd be extremely happy if they were able to change all three of those moves in a way that would develop a new playstyle for Dorfenstein. He'd still keep most of old, but have new utilities that could bring much justice to the character.

I'm gonna say what i wanted to tell pwnzor but retracted, but now im gonna say it.

Im getting the feeling, I may be wrong, but im getting the feeling that when people say this, a character they wanted didn't make it in and are hoping that they scrap characters they dont like and replace them with the character they want in, like a DK char for example.

Well guess what, the PMDT is a team, not a single person, I doubt they'd drop everything when they even put voicework into the character and nearly finished both, if they were gonna scrap they wouldn't even make it that far into testing. anyway the leak suggested about four characters, two that are up in the air, but the fourth will probably be in as well. I'm fine with them closing if they wish to.

I HIGHLY doubt they would scrap those characters. Even if they weren't their favorites, I'm sure all of the progress put into the designs would not just go to waste. Alterations can always be made, along with the simple notion that every character (DLC or not) doesn't have to be desirable.

 

[Frozn~]

Guys,I'd like to post some moveset ideas soon,but how do I use spoiler tags?It'll be more organized and clutter up the page a lot less if use them.

Spoiler

blah blah blah

 

[leekslap]

It just seemed like a good way to please the people who like the Falcondorf play style while also satisfying those who want a more unique Ganondorf with a sword.

Oh. My. God. When will people understand? First of all, GANON IS ALREADY REALLY UNIQUE AND I'VE RANTED ABOUT THIS THREE TIMES! Second of all, why so many people want a "unique" Ganon when they probably won't even play him. You literally will not find a single Ganon main who wants him to have swords and energy balls and magic attacks or at least not to the extent people suggest. People don't know ANYTHING about actually playing him so why are they constantly suggesting sword ftw. And I guarentee you at least half of the people who suggest it, know nothing of real spacing and mindgames ( AKA the primary things
you need to play Ganon).

 

[HayabusaTaichou]

There is a way for everyone to be happy and the PMDT has started moving towards that. Some suggestions won't work but that's no reason to not brainstorm at all.

 

[_Ganondorf_]

Oh. My. God. When will people understand? First of all, GANON IS ALREADY REALLY UNIQUE AND I'VE RANTED ABOUT THIS THREE TIMES! Second of all, why so many people want a "unique" Ganon when they probably won't even play him. You literally will not find a single Ganon main who wants him to have swords and energy balls and magic attacks or at least not to the extent people suggest. People don't know ANYTHING about actually playing him so why are they constantly suggesting sword ftw. And I guarentee you at least half of the people who suggest it, know nothing of real spacing and mindgames ( AKA the primary things
you need to play Ganon).

And I "ranted" about Ganon being unique for the millionth time now, so what?

I'm a pretty good player. I'm not pro level or anything but I can Wavedash/land, L-cancel etc. very well. I've been playing Ganondorf since Melee started playing him around 2005/2006.

I love the G-man. In LOZ and smash as well. My main gripe is mainly unique animations. If you go to my earlier post with the link to the Ganon Meta thread you will see most if not all of the suggestions I have are to keep the play style he has now intact but having the moves/animation be better and/or more fitting to his character (there are pics/videos too so it's easy to understand).

Besides there was a rumor before 3.5 that Ganon is getting a hover/reflector, that guy that posted it got laughed at and was met with extreme opposition to his "suggestion/leak".
As soon as everyone saw the new changes though it was 180 degree change in attitude and everyone loved it!

Same would happen if he got more unique animations for lets say Upsmash (magic uppercut?) or down smash (OoT ground punch?), new Nair animation with magic etc. And it would be the same if he got a stance change (like Samus) also.

Like really what's the worst that could happen?... You make Ganondorf a little better and more unique. And provide him with 2 styles of play? Zelda/Sheik anyone? Have the change between stances long like Zelda/Sheik down B so you can't switch willy-nilly, but able to pick the stance on the CSS. Oh my god the world broke...

Besides I gave up on Sakurai giving Ganon a truley unique move set and the PMDT are better than him (imo) so I just want to see Justice done for him finally and the hover/reflector, new Fsmash, rolls/spot dodge only makes me more hopeful for the future.

 

[MagnesD3]

Id also like to know about the leaked info on the pm characters yet to be released if someone would please pm me the information.

Edit: found the info online, wont spread it to facebook since the pmbr doesnt want it leaked to badly.

Id also love to thank the pmbr for the amazing content thats coming, god damn you guys are awesome.

 

[leekslap]

And I "ranted" about Ganon being unique for the millionth time now, so what?

I'm a pretty good player. I'm not pro level or anything but I can Wavedash/land, L-cancel etc. very well. I've been playing Ganondorf since Melee started playing him around 2005/2006.

I love the G-man. In LOZ and smash as well. My main gripe is mainly unique animations. If you go to my earlier post with the link to the Ganon Meta thread you will see most if not all of the suggestions I have are to keep the play style he has now intact but having the moves/animation be better and/or more fitting to his character (there are pics/videos too so it's easy to understand).

Besides there was a rumor before 3.5 that Ganon is getting a hover/reflector, that guy that posted it got laughed at and was met with extreme opposition to his "suggestion/leak".
As soon as everyone saw the new changes though it was 180 degree change in attitude and everyone loved it!

Same would happen if he got more unique animations for lets say Upsmash (magic uppercut?) or down smash (OoT ground punch?), new Nair animation with magic etc. And it would be the same if he got a stance change (like Samus) also.

Like really what's the worst that could happen?... You make Ganondorf a little better and more unique. And provide him with 2 styles of play? Zelda/Sheik anyone? Have the change between stances long like Zelda/Sheik down B so you can't switch willy-nilly, but able to pick the stance on the CSS. Oh my god the world broke...

Besides I gave up on Sakurai giving Ganon a truley unique move set and the PMDT are better than him (imo) so I just want to see Justice done for him finally and the hover/reflector, new Fsmash, rolls/spot dodge only makes me more hopeful for the future.

Yeah this is agreeable. It wasn't really you I was talking about though. And I wanted a reflector but didn't think thePMDT woukd be godlike enough to do it but connect the dots. But if Ganon got a Mewtwo style nair, he'd broken as hell. I kinda want a quake down smash and magic up smash no though

 

[Niko Mar]

Yeah this is agreeable. It wasn't really you I was talking about though. And I wanted a reflector but didn't think thePMDT woukd be godlike enough to do it but connect the dots. But if Ganon got a Mewtwo style nair, he'd broken as hell. I kinda want a quake down smash and magic up smash no though

I think that reflector needs a buff....

Say whatever you want about being skilled enough to use it, because IMO, the window is ridiculously small and counter-intuitive. They should definitely lengthen the active frames on the reflect; right now it's more of a cape slap attack with an ability to rebound projectiles.

 

[TrillyTroy]

Id also like to know about the leaked info on the pm characters yet to be released if someone would please pm me the information.

Edit: found the info online, wont spread it to facebook since the pmbr doesnt want it leaked to badly.

could you pm it to me? im interested

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

I'm gonna say what i wanted to tell pwnzor but retracted, but now im gonna say it.

Im getting the feeling, I may be wrong, but im getting the feeling that when people say this, a character they wanted didn't make it in and are hoping that they scrap characters they dont like and replace them with the character they want in, like a DK char for example.

Well guess what, the PMDT is a team, not a single person, I doubt they'd drop everything when they even put voicework into the character and nearly finished both, if they were gonna scrap they wouldn't even make it that far into testing. anyway the leak suggested about four characters, two that are up in the air, but the fourth will probably be in as well. I'm fine with them closing if they wish to.

I just want to add that everything I've seen leak-wise, I was pretty happy with. I just don't like the idea of getting my hopes up from something that is not confirmed from the official sources. Hence, even though leaks are cool to see, it's still just rumor until it's made official with a real trailer.

 

[JCOnyx]

I'm gonna say what i wanted to tell pwnzor but retracted, but now im gonna say it.

Im getting the feeling, I may be wrong, but im getting the feeling that when people say this, a character they wanted didn't make it in and are hoping that they scrap characters they dont like and replace them with the character they want in, like a DK char for example.

Well guess what, the PMDT is a team, not a single person, I doubt they'd drop everything when they even put voicework into the character and nearly finished both, if they were gonna scrap they wouldn't even make it that far into testing. anyway the leak suggested about four characters, two that are up in the air, but the fourth will probably be in as well. I'm fine with them closing if they wish to.

I'll just say this, I'm okay with every character leaked so far and heavily support their inclusion. That is not my reasoning for telling you guys to be weary of leaks, it's exactly what I said in my post. Things change all the time in PM. Extravagant moves are created and then scraped because they just don't feel right, were unnecessary, or didn't follow their design goals. That's just the nature of PM.

And for heaven's sakes there are still possible slots to fill. Nobody needs to go into a panic just because their characters weren't one of the ones spoiled. They shouldn't anyways, the PMDT don't even have to do this at all. They should be happy they are even considering adding new characters in the first place.

 

[_Ganondorf_]

Yeah this is agreeable. It wasn't really you I was talking about though. And I wanted a reflector but didn't think thePMDT woukd be godlike enough to do it but connect the dots. But if Ganon got a Mewtwo style nair, he'd broken as hell. I kinda want a quake down smash and magic up smash no though

It's all good brother

(bold) You are probably right, so maybe just a set of punches that match the current hit boxes or same Nair we have right now but even more animation changes to make it more "brutish" and less "acrobatic" looking with some added darkness trails on the feet (see Fair darkness trail). The options are there and would keep the core move intact but just make it different than C.Falcon.

(underline) Those would not only make him more unique and represent his canon better but would just match his other unique moves as well. I don't know about anyone else but when I picture PM Ganon I think of; Fair, (new) Fsmash, (new) Bair, Up tilt, Flame choke, hover/reflect, Dair, Ftilt, Jab, and Wiz Kick.

All those moves share the same "theme" so to speak. They all look natural for Ganon to do and they make Ganon look like a beast (no pun intended) while doing them.

So what is missing?
Up smash, down smash, Nair, Up air, Up B (Dark dive) and Grab animation/pummel animation (maybe back throw too). These either don't fit with the theme of the other moves mentioned above or are just plain to acrobatic looking for our 7.5 feet, 400 lbs, clad in armor guy to be doing.

Up air - easy fix: make more brutish looking (like they did with Bair) maybe add some darkness or lightning effect. Perfect!

Up B - easy fix: PMDT should "follow suit" with what Smash 4 did. make the animation while Ganon is holding the enemy more fitting to Ganon and the "push back" animation after the explosion as well. (This was actually very well done in Smash 4 I think)
*NOTE* the hand swipe at the end is bad*** though!

Nair - easy fix: (posted above) maybe just a set of punches that match the current hit boxes or same Nair we have right now but even more animation changes to make it more "brutish" and less "acrobatic" looking with some added darkness trails on the feet (see Fair darkness trail).

Grab animation - easy fix: (besides the fact I think he still needs a buff to his grab range) His grab animation looks so wimpy... like Ganon is going "meh". That is just wrong! Ganon trying to grab someone shouldn't look like he is trying pet you. It should look intimidating as ****! Same for the pummel, the knees just look off :\ he should be punching the foe's stomach instead, with electricity effect coming out as he connects.

Up smash and Down smash should just be redesigned. The Uppercut from the Triforce mod just works so much better than his current one. And OoT ground punch... I don't think I need to explain that one.

Same goes for small animations as well like his (direct Falcon rip off) spinning kicks get up attack... like really? using his hands to swipe back and forth or even a small weak ground punch with a shock wave could work just as well if not better (see my post on the META thread).

And some throws as well; Down and forward throw are good, maybe some tweaking here and there. But Up throw and especially Back throw also just look off. And those can be just made to look better and/or more "in line" with his other unique animations.

All of these keep the same style of Ganon we currently have but just make him even more unique and/or better like with Up smash/Down smash. (Even if all this happens I would still like a some sort of stance change though but I would be extremely content with Ganon at that point)

 

[Hylian]

Please stop asking for leak information on the boards, it's disrupting to the flow of conversation and just makes more people spam the same thing.

 

[kyleglor]

Please stop asking for leak information on the boards, it's disrupting to the flow of conversation and just makes more people spam the same thing.

Agreed

I know theres an alt topic but this character isnt in although hes the only one ive voted for so far so id just like to say a skull kid alt could be him wearing a mario mask like on the salesmans backpack

Spoiler

 

[Ganondalf]

eat my farts you popcorn walrus dancer!

[Ganon and Falcon were never clones]

yes, yes they were

Mario/Luigi/Dr. Mario (Luigi eventually became his own thing)
Ganon/Falcon (Have been clones forever until now in Project M where Ganon is slowly diverging from C.F moveset)
Fox/Falco/Wolf? (This is what is suitable to argue about. Wolf stirs the pot. I vote no)
Link/Young link/Toon Link (Clones of clones)
Pikachu/Pichu (Best definition of a clone)
March/Roy (Changed in Project M to be slightly different)
Ness/Lucas (Lucas has diverged from Ness in Project M) (Snuck this in here after Shin liked just to spite him)

I don't understand where the delusion comes from. I think it comes from higher levels of play where distinctions can be made in their playstyle but that doesn't mean they aren't clones. Their movesets and over all animations are extremely similar, which = clone. Warlock Punch was just a swaggier Falcon Punch. Wizard Foot (Or whatever) was a slower, more powerful Falcon Kick. etc. It isn't about the play style, yes, we get it, they play differently but they were still created as clones.

This isn't really an arguable subject. This is the strictest definition of a clone: A character created using a pre-existing character's moveset or move template with relatively minor changes in other performances (Speed, lag time, jump height etc).

I pulled it out of my ass and we can argue what a better definition is, but don't pretend like C. Falcon and Ganon were designed separately, each with a totally unique design philosophy because it's painfully clear that they weren't.

 

[GunBuster]

Please stop asking for leak information on the boards, it's disrupting to the flow of conversation and just makes more people spam the same thing.

it's better than ******** about ganondorf for the millionth time. he's not even a damn clone engine character.


anyway, I was again reading Manlyspirit's write up for a hypothetical moveset for Lyndis. something has struck me that i'm feeling is a bit out of place in it.

(in regard to her taunts) 3. Draws her sword places it horizontally above her brow as if glaring at her opponent, says some thing about honor in Japanese and re-sheaths it.

now this is implying that in this mock-up build she would be built with a japanese sound bank. that doesn't sit right with me at all. I'm aware that she wields a katana and people would like to see a particularly flashy "anime" for lack of a better word moveset on her if she's included in Project M, but one of her points is the fact that she's one of the lords of the first English released fire emblem game. in fact, besides the katana her character design does not draw from a japanese cosmetic that much - it's much more nomadic, and said game doesn't divide Elibe by languages either. Surely people who want lyn in like myself would prefer her with an english soundbank? there have to be hundreds of english vocal assets from other games that could fit the bill for her if she makes the cut. see what i did there.

As an addendum to this
even her assist trophy had a horribly manly english voice.

 

[Grey Belnades]

As an addendum to this
even her assist trophy had a horribly manly english voice.

More like the voice of a strong independent lord who don't need no RNG.

 

[BaganSmashBros]

it's better than *****ing about ganondorf for the millionth time. he's not even a damn clone engine character.

Its about Canondorf part of Shadowdorf & Canondorf duo, so, it counts. I think majority of those who voted for those 2 care about Canondorf and not Shadowdorf. But still, that discussion is unnecessary now since PMBR desided to keep Falcon-slightly-more-Ganondorf instead. And im fine with it.

They just gave him his OoT cape reflector and his OoT float. He's only missing the projectile.

Not gonna happen and if it will, then they will make the greatest archievement in the Brawl modding since copying articles is impossible for now and is the only reason why not every character can have certain types of final smashes or projectiles. Don't expect PMBR to be able to do anything.

More like the voice of a strong independent lord who don't need no RNG.

At first i thought you said "RPG" (rocket-propelled grenade, not game genre) because then this would mean that "strong independent lord" is just that bada$$.

 

[Niko Mar]

More like the voice of a strong independent lord who don't need no RNG.

More like a 40-year-old woman for some reason....

 

[Marthmario]

More like a 40-year-old woman for some reason....

Yea, that always bothered me for some reason. She's like 16-18, why does she sound 40?

 

[Deleted member]

I doubt that they'll let the layout determine things, especially since they can always change it.

Yeah, but I'm just sayin'... they might be planning ahead, you know.

 

[MagnesD3]

Yea, that always bothered me for some reason. She's like 16-18, why does she sound 40?

Cuz she a wo-man

 

[Niko Mar]

Yea, that always bothered me for some reason. She's like 16-18, why does she sound 40?

It's especially strange considering the voice actress also provided the work for Pit and Lucas in Brawl....

She voices Ivy from SC3 and up as well, and oddly enough it seems like that transferred over a lot for some reason :/.

 

[Deleted member]

It's especially strange considering the voice actress also provided the work for Pit and Lucas in Brawl....

She voices Ivy from SC3 and up as well, and oddly enough it seems like that transferred over a lot for some reason :/.

I'm so glad Pit has a new voice actor...it kind of bothered me that his was a woman.

And only because he's obviously male...I don't mind that Kirby is voiced by a woman, for example.

 

[JarBear]

To add on to that, "decloning" basically means taking some moves and making them completely different. While some characters like Roy, get "decloned," it's still relative, because they still remain clones (in other words it's more of a process, rather than completely making the character unrelated to his base). Luigi is the farthest "clone," being a semiclone of Mario because his side B, down B, dash attack, fsmash, and fair are different.

I am more of a fan of that, when a character still shares similarities, but there are differences. You are right, Luigi is probably the best example of that, which, just a personal choice, the "clones" should be more like that. Wolf was also somewhat similar, in the sense that is side b went at an angle, and he had some different standard attacks. With Project M, Lucas is another good clone example ... some similarities and differences, but also play much differently.

All in all, I think they made good choices with Ganondorf, I personally thought it was a wise decision on their part, now making Ganondorf feel more like Ganondorf as he is portrayed in the series.

 

[arcticfox8]

Hey
Wolf isn't a clone
We're not playing this game today

 

[GeZ]

Hey
Wolf isn't a clone
We're not playing this game today

Wolf's moveset clearly isn't canon.

So take his current moveset and put it on a character from F-Zero called Teal Shadow, and have current Wolf fly one of the X-Wings from his game series.

But, but also make it, so he's no longer anthropomorphized, so he's just like a regular Wolf, so it's canon to life.

This'll clearly appease everyone.

I still won't play him tho.

 

[MagnesD3]

There is no canon to how wolf fights...

 

[True Blue Warrior]

There is no canon to how wolf fights...

GeZ was actually using Wolf as an example to mock people who wanted Ganondorf to be changed.

 

[arcticfox8]

*insert joke over head gif here*
*raughs*
*all the likes*