Ness Question and Answer Thread, Ask Ness questions Here!

[Shaky]

@heybrun: Mastering PK Thunder is the most important thing to playing Ness is my opinion. Just keep doing that and you'll probably win a lot.

 

[Flame Hyenard]

There was something I was wondering for a while : which stages should I counterpick against Wolf ? I have troubles against a friend of mine who always beats me as Wolf, no matter what character I use (even MK). I only know I won't take Wolf to the Halberd, since it's my friend's best stage.

 

[P.I.E.]

I suggest frigate and ps1 o.o but thats just my preference.

 

[Jamwa]

I need help with the Ness vs Snake match up. I'm not too sure how to approach him. I also don't know how to punish his ftilt (can i shield grab it?).

Any suggestions as to how to space/approach a snake will be much appreciated :D

ah another question (sorry i dont have a wii myself so i cant test this) but do you think with thunder shifting ness' thunderslide could be made as fast as lucas'?

 

[Rockmix]

Out of shield Nair, fair, bair, grab, and uair if you are close enough. I just avoid the nades and try to put him into the air. Sometimes I throw back the nades. Pk fire and pk thunder helps too. its hard to get inside and rack up some damage and killing him is a pain. Oh if the snake recovers to close the edge try to grab him it gets rid of his upb for some reason. Watch out for the grab. Snake can get a ftilt and utilt from a grab release which can kill you.

 

[Jamwa]

Thanks for the help, much appreciated :D

 

[JTMerrell]

Alright! I seriously need much help...

I recently picked up Ness and started using him for tournaments and I cannot seem to get passed G&W... Especially this one that constantly jumps above me, uses dair then once on the ground, he FSmashes.

I seriously cannot find a way around this except run and keep trying Fair before he get above me and uses Dair. My USmash does not stop his Dair, It just blocks the Yo-Yo and he still gets me. Once he hits, I'll attempt to grab, but Dair makes me slide too far.

Anyway, I just need some serious help with this one. Please and Thank you...

 

[Rockmix]

You just have to do stuff out of shield if you are close to him. Also if you feel that you can't grab or oos stuff it is best if you get out of the situation and wait til he does it again. I like to think of Ness's dair like captain falcons dair in melee you can punish their mistakes with a dair and get them into the air. power shield his dair then you can grab him and stuff.

 

[Jamwa]

@JTMerrell i found this game of FOW playing a GaW, but from this you should find that an uncharged pk flash can help alot against his dair. If you want to grab his dair try shield grabbing (right when the dair hits you but before it lands, the timing will be strict) not sure if you can do that though..

here's the video, very nice gameplay from FOW: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62q92o1wEec&feature=results_video&playnext=1&list=PL645DBD4A2AA27C35

 

[JTMerrell]

I see that it worked and playing that G&W using PK Flash really does help. Very useful for Defensive players as well. I sometimes have trouble predicting it. He doesn't use it as much on me anymore. Makes me a happy man. Thank you guys! The advice really helped out as well. I believe I am about to start maining Ness!

 

[pooka216]

just went to a tournament yesterday. First time entering singles and i lost to a wario and falco as ness. I feel like the wario just outplayed me but the falco matches were just dumb. I was dying like every time he got the chain grab near the edge and i had no idea what to do. i guess i was trying to escape the chain grab by jumping and i would just get edge blocked when he daired me off stage. Oh and is it worth trying to heal from falcos lasers? I also was kinda mind gaming myself trying to predict when he would shoot them. I appreciate any help

 

[Flame Hyenard]

Let me redirect you to the post that says a lot about the Ness VS Falco matchup : http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=13882754&postcount=1679

I hope this is useful for you

 

[Neon Ness]

Oh and is it worth trying to heal from falcos lasers? I also was kinda mind gaming myself trying to predict when he would shoot them. I appreciate any help

Might be... You have to be careful about it. He might just try to bait you into using Magnet so he can hit you with a Phantasm or something else. It sort of depends on how much distance there is between the two of you and how easy it would be for him to punish you from where he is.

But try to sneak in Magnet if you see a safe opportunity, recovering those few % can really stack up after a few times.

 

[pooka216]

Thanks to both of you! Yeah according to that falco post i probably shouldn't of cp'd battlefield... whatever i think i just have to play a bunch of friendlies against a falco next time.

 

[JTMerrell]

I have another question, which might sound a little stupid, but what are some of Ness' best stages, and how can I use them to my advantage?

 

[Eagleye893]

In my opinion, Ness' best stages are as follows:

Delfino
SV
BF
Halberd
Brinstar
(whatever else you like best)

Other people will say this:

Brinstar
Delfino
SV
(Whatever you like best)

The reason I say my order and other people's order is because it really just depends on what stages you like best.
I love BF because Ness can manuever around the platforms like a maniac. The only slight trouble he has is when someone can just camp underneath a platform for a long time, but in that case you should be doing some crazy drop-through shenanigans to get off a BAir or NAir or UAir.
I name Delfino as a favorite stage for a bunch of reasons. The platforms are all at relatively nice heights for FH aerials. The ability to go through the main part of the stage from underneath gives you a bunch of crazy aerial approaches. THE WATER! Some parts of the stage you can camp, but others you can bring the fight to them b/c of a bunch of awesome things.
SV is everyone's favorite starter stage. Not even specific to Ness mains. BUT, with Ness, You can safely use PKT to run away from a fight by jumping on that platform so long as your opponent isn't epic and able to glide-toss over to you super fast. It's also relatively flat, so PK JUMP WORKS!!!
Brinstar was every Ness main's CP, but I hate it for 3 reasons: I take too much damage from random stupid stuff, get gimped by the little balls in the center a ton of times, and there are a ton of characters which are even better than Ness there.
EDIT: as for halberd, personal preference. Low Ceiling = earlier UAir kills... and I <3 UAir.

 

[Jiffyboob]

Learn the stage then counter pick Rainbow Cruise.

 

[JTMerrell]

Alright... More problems/questions! I want to Main Ness, I believe! I am just having so much trouble with characters because I have not had enough practice against these characters!

Toon Link, Wario, Marth!

I have went to these characters discussions to read about advantages and what to look out for and what advantages they have on Ness... I have so much confidence in beating these characters. I just need the practice and advice on what I should do/not should do. :B

I know there is a very low chance against Marth, but I know it is possible. I have not played a single Marth with my Ness because I try to avoid that match up. I feel that I might be ready for this match up though so if the time come, I want to actually know what I am doing against this opponent.

Toon Link... I have so much trouble with this character because he can grab, release, then DSmash... It ****s me up. Along with that, he always runs from me, keeps a distance and uses all of those projectiles to keep me away from him. I played a Toon Link player over 100 matches and beat him once... I just didn't know what to do. I started giving up after a while. I just quit trying because I had no hope. I would definitely like some help with this character PLEASE!

And Wario! I feel like I play a lot of Wario's at every tournament I go to. Yet I feel like I have little experience against him. I would just really like to know advantages and disadvantages against this character.

Any advice will most definitely help me. And if people would not mind, posting stages that would be best to play each character on. Please! I am begging...

 

[Eagleye893]

Marth destroys Ness, even without the grab release.

Wario and TL shouldn't be too much of a problem. I'll talk about that after I'm finished with classes.

 

[R e d X]

Marth destroys Ness, even without the grab release.

Dear lord, THIS^^^

For some reason SO many people I know seem to think the only bad think about that MU is the GR, and when I do face Marths with my Ness (cause I'm stubborn like that), people always ask me why I do poorly when I'm not getting GRed but still having a tough time.

Glad someone understands :D:D:D

 

[pooka216]

Does anyone else mess up the short hop double aerial? I seem to be really inconsistent with it sometimes and it costs me a forward tilt from snake when i miss the second aerial... any tips? or is it just something that gets better with time?

 

[Eagleye893]

Does anyone else mess up the short hop double aerial? I seem to be really inconsistent with it sometimes and it costs me a forward tilt from snake when i miss the second aerial... any tips? or is it just something that gets better with time?

There is a trick to this. The key is to buffer the attack before you leave the ground from the jump animation. Each character has a certaIn time they take to initiate the jump, and IIRC Ness' is 6. Just press your button inputs within six frames of your jump input. Not too difficult really. The easiest way to do this if you have default controls is to sorta slide your thumb from x to a or y to a.

 

[pooka216]

Thanks i'll try that out

 

[P.I.E.]

Whats the best way to setup a jab lock? i saw a replay of shaky catching someone in a short hopped dair to immediate jab lock, but are there even more setups for it?

 

[baconator25]

Against some fast-falling characters on stages with low platforms, such as Battlefield, if your opponent is on a platform above you, you can use a move like fair to cause an edge slip. For some of the roster, their falling animation is too long and they won't be able to do anything (attack, jump or tech) before hitting the ground, causing a knockdown. This is when you run up and jab lock.

I don't remember all of the characters it works on, but I know it works on Diddy, Snake, DDD, Meta Knight, Ike, all of the spacies and a bunch of others. There's a Metagame Minute on it on Youtube but I don't feel like getting.

EDIT: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lyFtJDxsqMs&feature=related

 

[Flame Hyenard]

That video is very useful, gotta look out for the potential of that mechanic.

 

[Eagleye893]

Any time where you can get your opponent into a knock-down animation as described in that video, do either of the following to lead into the jab lock:

FAir them so that the knockback hit doesn't come out (AKA, Land it before that comes out)
Sourspot some other move if they're at low percent BESIDES DAir. Basically, sourspot NAir or BAir.

They pop people up into the jab lock state without pushing too far. I normally just go with FAir if I ever have the chance b/c it's the longest ranged and it's not too difficult to mess up.

 

[Asa]

what's the best way to **** up nana?

and general ic help XD

 

[Eagleye893]

I really like the IC matchup. PK Fire is oddly more reliable because nana doesn't shield at the same time as popo, and if you play right you can force a pillar by using it aerially right on top of them. It's pretty funny the things that ness can do to the ICs. xD

If you can manage to make them go offstage and low, you win. Their squall is easily predictable and you can NAir or BAir to take like 2-3% while dealing out 10-13%. Or you can just predict the path of it and PK Fire them offstage, which DESTROYS their recovery completely (desync FTW! or you just DAir them after that). On this note, Sourspot NAir is your best friend... either that or the crazy situation in which the NAir just sends them horizontally... Or Sourspot DAir. OBVIOUSLY trying to FThrow them is stupid b/c if you grab Nana you lose.

Your goal in this matchup is to get the ICs offstage as quickly as possible and as much as possible. To separate, you need to make sure not to land wrong. By this, I mean you can't land with any lag whatsoever or you risk getting grabbed. Now based on that, the most often used aerials should be in this order as follows:

DAir
UAir
BAir
NAir
FAir

DAir can land laglessly, or near laglessly, and it's a baiting move. Your goal in using DAir is normally not to hit them, but to just land and continue with something else. eg.) land a DAir laglessly and rising FAir to get onto a platform OR RAR Retreating BAir OR Dashgrab > PUMMEL LIKE MAD THEN HOPE TO GOD YOU DON'T GET GRABBED AFTER THROWING!

The only reason I don't like this matchup is because it's impossible to grab without some negative consequence. The only situation in which it is good is if the ICs are on or near the ledge and you can pummel them to a point below the stage.

NAir and UAir are the best moves for separating the ICs whenever you DO get a chance to rush in. UAir pops them up, and once they are in a spot above you, you can just look at which direction each IC went, you go about using something else to move popo and nana apart. Whatever makes sense for the situation. For example, Popo and Nana are close together after being UAir'd. If you get just between them and NAir, they'll both go off in different directions. Of course, you need to make sure they don't do something which prevents you from hitting them at all before you just rush in.

PK Fire is awesome in this MU for a couple of reasons:

1.) Blizzard and iceblocks set up pillars, and pillars prevent stupid approaches.
2.) When both ICs are hanging on the ledge, PK Fire will set up a pillar if you time it right, disrupting Popo and nana as they try a getup (Everything except roll)
3.) Nana shields slower
4.) Desync ICs offstage if it hits and traps just one of them.


And that's my terribly-formatted take on ICs.

 

[Asa]

thanks a lot eagleeye! i'll try to get some vids recorded

 

[Jamwa]

If IC's recover via up-b you can pk fire nana straight away

Oh and be sure to absorb the blizzard, it heals like 100% lols

 

[Eagleye893]

The problem with healing off of blizzard is the opponent often does it when they're desync'd. This means that when the blizzard comes out, nana or popo, whichever one not spitting out ice, can jump in for a grab while you're healing unless you cancel the magnet properly. I don't know for certain how much percent you can recover or whether or not you can escape with a jump cancel, but keep that in mind.

Realistically, since the absorb box of PSImag extends enough off of ness' body, you should be able to roll or spot dodge to get away from the grab.

 

[TOPIX]

Can someone explain the following MUs because I don't the reasoning behind their current placements on the chart

, , , ,

And I mean things such as options, options that we have that are effective on them (pros & cons I guess) and as well as how the matchups should be approached. Then I need help in the following MUs:

, , , , , ,

 

[Eagleye893]

ZSS is higher up because she has a ton of range, good kill power, and some crazy shenanigans with her armor pieces, Dsmash, downB, and just a bunch of things. It's VERY difficult to gimp a good ZSS.

Sonic is Mid-ish because he obviously doesn't have kill power, but his ability to just run around and cause time-outs is stupid.

Rob has been dropping a bit because he doesn't get much great rep. Ocean was the first superb ROB I'd seen, with some scattered people in between. He has good kill power and maneuverability, but he's a bit predictable. Also, he's able to camp people with his laser and gyro.

CF.... IDK



Our matchup against them:

I forget.

 

[TOPIX]

ZSS is higher up because she has a ton of range, good kill power, and some crazy shenanigans with her armor pieces, Dsmash, downB, and just a bunch of things. It's VERY difficult to gimp a good ZSS.

Sonic is Mid-ish because he obviously doesn't have kill power, but his ability to just run around and cause time-outs is stupid.

Rob has been dropping a bit because he doesn't get much great rep. Ocean was the first superb ROB I'd seen, with some scattered people in between. He has good kill power and maneuverability, but he's a bit predictable. Also, he's able to camp people with his laser and gyro.

CF.... IDK



Our matchup against them:

I forget.

I only ask because I feel the following on the MU chart should look more like this:

(-1)
(+1 to +2) (57:43)
(-2 to -3) (65:35)
(-+0)
(+1)
(-2)

And then I need help with other MUs I mentioned, as I have no idea what exactly I should do in them. Especially , , and most of all... &

 

[baconator25]

Seeing all these questions about so many different match ups made me go searching for our match up thread. The only thing we appear to have is the "Ness in the Match Up Chart" thread where information is scattered all over the place and it's difficult to find what you want.

What do you guys think about doing individual match up exports (like every other board)? I personally would find it extremely helpful and I'm sure others would too.

 

[R e d X]

Seeing all these questions about so many different match ups made me go searching for our match up thread. The only thing we appear to have is the "Ness in the Match Up Chart" thread where information is scattered all over the place and it's difficult to find what you want.

What do you guys think about doing individual match up exports (like every other board)? I personally would find it extremely helpful and I'm sure others would too.

I would actually really like this, ^

I'm pretty busy, but I creep the Ness boards pretty much every day so I'd be able to help out and contribute to most if not all of the MUs in at least some way

 

[Neon Ness]

What do you guys think about doing individual match up exports (like every other board)? I personally would find it extremely helpful and I'm sure others would too.

Go for it.

Might be helpful to try and keep a steady schedule, maybe something like one character per week depending on the amount of discussion?

 

[baconator25]

Well, if we really wanted to do this, where do you guys think we should start? We could always be like every other board and start at the top of the tier list and work our way down or vote on which match ups we'd like to discuss first.

Also, who's going to run this? If no one else is really up for it, I suppose I could make the threads every week if necessary.

 

[Eagleye893]

Vote on Matchups to do. I hate starting at the top, because part-way through you're just like AHHH THESE MATCHUPS SUCK! I QUIT LIFE!

I vote to review the ZSS MU first, followed by D3.

WE WILL NEVER TOUCH THE MARTH MU! IT IS DEATH TO US NO MATTER WHO ARGUES AGAINST THAT!