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Ness Question and Answer Thread, Ask Ness questions Here!

Red(SP)

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I'm very sorry. I was unaware that there was a thread like this. So I decided to bring this post here:

Red(SP) said:
Okay, I've read the Ness guide and I have a couple of questions.

Well, for starters what's this 'DJ' abbreviation you guys keep mentioning in the guide(I'm really lost here.)?

And I also assume by PKJump you mean his second jump.

Which now leads me to my current playstyle issue. I'm pretty decent with Ness; more or less mediorcre but I feel like I'm missing a key in his playstyle. I'm straightforward what you may call 'the aggressive non-thinker' when it comes to my matches. When I play against other fellow Ness players I feel like it's just not enough. I tend to ignore most of his tricks and do-dads and I go straight for the bruteforce actions(No, I don't randomly walk up to my opponent and f-smash them because it's obvious and downright ********.). In the end it's close but it's not enough to make the gold standard.

It feels like I'm looking at the picture but I'm not seeing what you all see. Some of this guide helped but I feel like I need more experience with other Ness players. Well, you can't do that on basic brawl.

And the last guy I had matches with was a vet with Ness. He used PKT and he was potentially putting me in a unsafe situation. I was offstage on Smashville, left side and he used it and he curved round and round. Now, being Pikachu I only had a few options with only a mid-air jump left and a special of some sort to use. I eventually got back to the stage but his PKT curved up and hit him the second I touched the ground. This intrigued me to learn how to use his projectile much better. He used it in all different directions and he had some painted image of where the projectile was with every twirl. He would often use this trickery to get the upper hand in our matches. PKT2 is one of my favorite moves personally, but I feel as if I'm not using its full potential. I use it very quicky and it's often obvious when to shield and counter it. Is there any other ways to use this destructive move to rack some KOs without putting yourself in punishable postitions?

...then again. I am the one to always bash Smashville whenever it's selected. Man I hate that stage...
If there is any way to help lift my dilemma then please help this rookie out.
EDIT: Also, I've noticed there is a PKfire lag cancel tech. How do you perform it?
 

Neon Ness

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DJ is just short for double jump, or his second jump.

PKJump is actually a strange mechanic that occurs when you use PK Fire in midair at almost the same time as double jumping. He lunges forward through the air a short distance while shooting the bolt. Lemme find a video demonstration of it.

PK Jump:

[yt]8QHePOJRNKE[/yt]

There's also a lot of good stuff on PK Fire in this older guide, look in the section labeled Advanced PK Fire. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=169865

Learning PK Thunder (and PKT2) is all about learning the angles in my opinion. Once you've got the muscle memory to understand where that bolt goes and how fast it moves, you'll figure out how to set up kills and juggle with it against different characters/opponents. For starters, I would say practice going offstage and hitting yourself with PKT2 at various angles. For instance, try to recover straight up, or straight down, or sweetspotting the edge from certain angles.

In all honesty though, I don't consider PKT2 the most practical kill move. KO with it when the opportunity arises, but don't ignore his more reliable KO moves like aerials and bthrow.
 

Eagleye893

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what do you mean by transcendent priority?

It's first hits have lesser priority than the power knockback hit at the end. That's all I know in terms of it's priority... Fair, in general, isn't a very high-priority move. It's more known for and reputable for it's large hitbox.

Oh, and a slightly better showing of how to best use PK Jump is in this random video that I made (going to make a more specific one later):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUCIbO2fRvg
 

Neon Ness

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Iirc transcendent means no moves will clank with it? I'm pretty sure Ness' fair does have transcendent priority.
 

Nesu

Smash Rookie
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I wanna ask, how do you deal with a campy Toon Link/Link? I'm horrible against both of them..they're so arrow happy and everything.
 

Yink

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Oh man. It's really obnoxious. My advice to you is to watch how they're keeping space. By that I mean watch where they stand in accordance to yourself.

Personally I'd like to tell you to stay close enough you can catch the bombs, but can still avoid the arrows / boomerang.

Against Link it's a little easier, because Link is just slower in general and less aerial mobile. You can handle his boomerang and use it to your advantage and his bombs and setups aren't as bad. Toon Link however can run away VERY well, and will most likely be using hookshot (zair) to make sure to keep you away and/or get a free dsmash release.

My advice is still to just, stay away, but be close enough for Nair, Fair and some PK Fire. It's a pretty hard matchup in my opinion because the damage can rack up really fast. You NEED to control space well and you need to make sure you can get close to Toon Link/Link.

Hope that was helpful.
 

Nesu

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Thanks! I'll keep that all in mind against 'em. I also I checked up on PK Jump a couple of days ago, and am currently practicing everything possible with it for default controls..hopefully that will help a bit with my approaches against them..
 

vato_break

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My advice is too Power Sheild a lot, and pay attention to where they land and certain habits they have when they're projectile spaming, this will allow you to punish easier. Keep in mind that some of your aerials(not fair) will cancel some of the projectiles. Projectile spammers will usually use more defensive tactics more so keep that in mind, for example, they might shield more so go for more grabs and punish in accordance to the other defensive tools(airdodging, Sidesteping ect)
 

ccst

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Hello Ness boards; just a question. What do you think about the R.O.B. MU and why? Thanks in advance!
 

ShadowRoamer

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I was over nyah, but now I'm over hnah.
^I think it's fair, really. Most of Ness' moves aren't well ranged or laggy, and ROB's game revolves around camping and range, usually. And considering Ness's air game as far as range goes is pretty much inferior to ROB's except at certain angles/small (if any) blind spots, Ness isn't so great against him. Probably one of the only reliefs from this is PK Fire, which works well with the helpful 45 degree angle it shoots from in the air. Yo-yo/up smash also helps set down a base in the rare case of ending lag. But ROB's range and camping ability helps outweigh this a bit, so 45/55 makes enough sense.
So yeah, I find it agreeable.
 

Pogoshark

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Im not understanding PKFLC.

If i have time to airdodge to cancel the lag theres no point because im out of FK fire and will not suffer landing lag :l
 

Eagleye893

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Pk fire lag cancel is very useful. If you use any move (not just airdodge) a set time after your Aerial PKfire ends, you can get rid of lag animatiOns you would have on landing. Doing PKfire in the air, if you are close enough to the ground, ness will enter lading lag if he touches the ground. To prevent the landing lag, you just use an aerial,

For example, a FH PK Fire would lead to landing lag if you didn't cancel the lag before you landed. You can use uair, nair, fair, and airdodge before you land so that the landing lag doesn't start.


So basically, use something after PK Fire in the air, b/c it helps. Airdodge too.
 

Eagleye893

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I'll get some explanation of things going.

Since I'm nearing the end of my high-school days, I can answer questions about ness through video or gameplay.

I'll get you some video explanation with something within a couple days (I'm always up until 3:00 doing nothing, so now I can do something).
 

Pogoshark

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I'll get some explanation of things going.

Since I'm nearing the end of my high-school days, I can answer questions about ness through video or gameplay.

I'll get you some video explanation with something within a couple days (I'm always up until 3:00 doing nothing, so now I can do something).
Thank you :)

If possible do you think you could show your controller while your doing it?
 

ccst

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^I think it's fair, really. Most of Ness' moves aren't well ranged or laggy, and ROB's game revolves around camping and range, usually. And considering Ness's air game as far as range goes is pretty much inferior to ROB's except at certain angles/small (if any) blind spots, Ness isn't so great against him. Probably one of the only reliefs from this is PK Fire, which works well with the helpful 45 degree angle it shoots from in the air. Yo-yo/up smash also helps set down a base in the rare case of ending lag. But ROB's range and camping ability helps outweigh this a bit, so 45/55 makes enough sense.
So yeah, I find it agreeable.
Thank you very much, really appreciated. Yeah I agree that the MU is 55:45 in R.O.B.'s favour.
 

Nesu

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dude this still makes no scene, in not supposed to FH but when i SH it doesnt work =_=
I coulda sworn that a SH'd PKF doesn't work unless you are on a platform like BF or SV's..or offstage. That's the only times you can lag cancel a SH'd PK Fire I remember right.
So basically, press side B + X/Y at the same time to do an aerial FH PKF. Easy way to get down the lag cancel: Use your 2nd jump/aerial right after...Ness...is done yellin' "PK FIRE!". Hopefully that'll help you.

...Does anyone wanna see almost all the PK Jump options? I'll ask someone to record it if anyone's interested..I'd probably go a bit in-depth in it as much as I can..
 

Eagleye893

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@Nesu: do you know how to do the bounce back one? Like where ness moves backward but fires forward?
 

Tomato

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Rockstar, I think the match started to turn against you after you took Holmes' second stock. The jumping and stuff put you in a bad situation, since he came back while you were in the middle of a jump and weren't positioned properly at all. After that, it was tough for you to get anything going for you in your favor, since you had to keep playing on the defensive, recovering from each of his successive hits. Had you been better positioned for him after you had taken his second stock, the match could have turned out better for you.

Also, I think you may have become a little too predictable and he got better at reading you as the match progressed. Coupled with what I previously mentioned, I think those two reasons are why you started to lose.

Even so, really well played, it was a good match. Perhaps I may be a little too critical, but I definitely noticed how the game changed for you as soon as Wolf came back with his last stock. Positioning is so key with a character like Ness, he's not quick enough to get back into a good rhythm given a small space. My advice is to just try to make sure you always have good space between you and your opponent when he comes back from a KO.

Hope I was helpful.
 

Eagleye893

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Don't use your second jump onstage, especially if you're on FD. It's just super predictable as to where you're going to land and almost impossible to come down safely. You have a CHANCE when using Bair or Dair AC'd on shield, but otherwise it's just a big guessing game as to where you have to go and, for your opponent, where you WILL go. Most good opponents and characters can just restrict a majority of your options so that you have to come straight down. On some characters, you have a couple times where you can PKT2 downward (at an angle) toward a ledge and be safe, but only if you a.) don't overshoot it/the stage and b.) aren't directing it at your opponent's shield (edge of shield is fine, directly into opponent isn't). You can also use PSImag to delay time of descent. Basically, play with your opponent's head and make them guess on when you are going to land, but land differently each time or land in a way that best suits a situation.
If you are moving away from an opponent who has a shield up, you can go with a retreating dropdown bair (must be timed perfectly so you land immediately after the hitbox comes out) on shield and either get a poke or just land safely. I've done this a lot. If your opponent grabs at the right time, you may be in trouble, so vary between aiming at the top edge of the shield and the bottom edge.
Dropdown Dair AC'd only works if you can manage to land at their back. If you can, it's "who can react quickest?" and use the quickest move to punish the other. Too risky on shield, but in a general sense it can work against an opponent that is partly in the air or not able to perfect-shield soon. Follow the AC'd Dair with a grab or jab or dtilt or ftilt; utilt MIGHT work, but it's often too short on range to hit the opponent, so don't risk it; d/usmash don't work because they already have their shield up.
PKT2 to a corner IFF the opponent has used their last non-upb jump and can't hit you with anything. Key part is can't hit you with anything. If they CAN, it's pointless.
PSImag to halt above them then FF down with an aerial or airdodge. Time it so that they can't hit you with anything from their current position without moving too drastically.
The normal method is to just use an aerial or FF when going down, but Fair is TERRIBLE when falling (it doesn't hit low at all if you are FF'ing) and the opponent can see it coming easily. A good opponent will know to grab you on the spot and just say "HAHAHAH! I'M DESTROYING A CHILD'S DREAM!"

Keep the whole "must get back to the ground ASAP but opponent is there" situation to a minimum; Ness is good in the air, but being too high isn't ever good. Half of Ness' aerials require close proximity to ground to get their best and full usages.


YOU TRIED TO GRAB FOR PUNISH WAY TOO MANY TIMES!!! OH MY GOSH!!! Never do that. Grabbing to punish only works if you dashdance or pivot grab into it. Ness' standing grab is garbo. I always just FH Nair OoS because it hits both sides, is relatively fast, and has good priority in some sense. It's only around 10% on average, but it beats getting hit by something randomly. You can also SH Bair OoS if you have enough time to punish. Doing that at lower percents leads to some unexpected awesome strings.

The beginning of the match was good. The end you were trying something, but I don't know what. Always keep safe and don't try to switch up gameplay drastically in the middle of a match. You SHOULD switch up a lot in general, but don't start trying to do something that Ness shouldn't, which is standing grab or waste his second jump.

Always pummel at least twice when you grab someone (habit I've gotten into, which helps a ton)
When you dthrow, use awesome reaction timing to judge how they follow it up. With almost all responses except when the opponent double-jumps, you have a chance to follow up with Uair or Bair. If they DI forward from it, dash and put up shield, then OoS Uair (jump, let go, then C-stick up or up + A in a VERY short amount of time). If you want a Bair, you have to ditch the shield-dash and RAR. If you're lucky, you can also potentially regrab if the opponent is dumb, but then they DJ and you run after them with a jumped PKT and loop it back at yourself to run away.
 

Neon Ness

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Can someone explain to me how this ness did what he did at 2:03 (I lol'd) and 2:27?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xWZAnT6oV_U&feature=related
Not sure what's significant about 2:27? It looks like he air dodged upward while double jumping, then used PSI Magnet as he was descending. If you mean how he bounced off of the edge with PKT2, that happens when you hit the stage at certain angles. But I think only on the right side.
 

Eagleye893

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Not sure what's significant about 2:27? It looks like he air dodged upward while double jumping, then used PSI Magnet as he was descending. If you mean how he bounced off of the edge with PKT2, that happens when you hit the stage at certain angles. But I think only on the right side.
CORRECTION! This can happen several different ways and times when you hit a ledge with PKT2. I went on a testing-spree involving "how do I bounce off the ledge in nice ways?" because I wanted to incorporate these things... but it involves SUPER precise timing. If you mess up by a tiny bit you bounce downward to your death.

Basically, when you are nearing the ledge with your PKT2, you want to put your control stick down or away from the ledge. That assures that you bounce off the ledge. Test this out in Training mode. It works every time if you're doing it right. My problem is that I keep screwing up and pointing the control stick away from myself too early and not even hitting myself with the PKT head.

When you do this, you want to hit the top half of the ledge. If you hit anything that is even somewhat close to the bottom half of the ledge, you're basically dead. Getting to hit the top half of the ledge is so impossibly hard to do consistently that I just don't bother. It's much easier to just go with landing onstage or going straight to the ledge.
 

Neon Ness

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I don't know the exact angles, but it's like Eagleye was saying, it seems to happen when you hit the top of the ledge at a very high, steep angle coming downward. He does still do damage as normal after bouncing, I've done this with Lucas' PKT2 before.

You might be able to catch someone off guard with it, but for the most part I'd think it would be safer to either aim to sweetspot the edge or aim directly for the stage. I don't know what would happen if you did this and someone hugged the ledge at the last second.
 

Nesu

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@ Eagle
Yikes! I know it's been a while, I'm really sorry! It seems like the person I asked to upload my replays seems pretty busy, so for now, I'll just post without the videos. I'll edit this post when I get the replays recorded!

Are you asking for Firebound, a B-Stick AT? Or...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NoJtslBf4cw
This freak accident one I did at the end of that Replay? It seems to that act a lot like Firebound, but I have it done with default controls..(I think it's probably an Adjustable PKJ, but the guide centered that on B-Sticking..) For now, I'll assume you're looking for the 2nd one I mentioned..

Replay of it in slow motion (Took a while to catch it...):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dUMklvKdUkY
Do a SH or a FJ, then 2nd jump torwards wherever you're facing, then IMMEDIATELY PK Fire the opposite way you're facing. (Ex: If you are facing left, PK Fire right.) You have to PKF before the 2nd jump's PK spark even appears. So..when done correctly, it'll look something like Firebound, but you are facing the opposite way at first when you actually perform this.

I know, I must be meh at explaining. I wanna note also that I've only been having this incident happen to me every time I try to do a RPKJ, and I have not had it happen to me when I'm trying to do a regular PKJ. Feel free to experiment with this if you're really willing to learn it! The thing is, I label this one as really hard to perform, it's harder than Reverse PKJ...even in slow motion.

If you wanna see the Replays yourself, talk to me about it. I'll be more than happy to send 'em to you for reference, as long as you got an SD Card to use. I don't have Wifi atm, so I can't send Replays that way..
 

Nesu

Smash Rookie
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Apr 3, 2011
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8
Yes, there are quite a lot of ATs for Ness..

I updated and fixed my last post with replays now that I got them. If anyone is curious about the PK Jump I mentioned there, feel free to poke at it...
 
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