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Ness Matchup Discussion - Zero Suit Samus

Noa.

Smash Master
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Jan 2, 2008
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3,758
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Orlando, Florida
Zero Suit Samus

Art Credit goes to Wen-JR

+1: Small Advantage

Frame Data ( Hitbox comes out on frame: )
Move|Ness|Zero Suit Samus
Jab|3|1
Dash Attack|8|7
Ftilt|7|6
Utilt|7|3
Dtilt|3|8
Fsmash|21|13
Usmash|6|10
Dsmash|10|20
Nair|5|10
Fair|8|6
Bair|10|8
Uair|8|6
Dair|20|14
Grab|6|16
Dash Grab|8|16
Pivot Grab|10|17
General Stats
Attribute|Ness|Zero Suit Samus
Weight|30th (94)|44th (81)
Dash Speed|40th (1.46)|5th (2.1)
Walk Speed|47th (.8635)|5th (1.4)
Air Speed|31st (.9588)|4th (1.2)
Fall Speed|42nd (1.31)|11th (1.7)

Bthrow Kill Percent
Closest|Middle|Farthest|Mean
86|120|144|116.6666

 

Trauma1

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jul 10, 2015
Messages
24
So i guess this would be a good time to ask..

How should i handle ZSS?

Ness is better in the air than on ground from what I've been learning but i know ZSS is deadly up there. Is Ness any better than her or should i play carefully.

Ive noticed a lot of ZSS players like to take her up into the air even if im not in the air myself. With Ness being strong up in the air is it a good idea to chase her up and try to punish her or is there a different approach to take to it?
 

EnhaloTricks

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Sep 27, 2014
Messages
197
Location
Texas
So i guess this would be a good time to ask..

How should i handle ZSS?

Ness is better in the air than on ground from what I've been learning but i know ZSS is deadly up there. Is Ness any better than her or should i play carefully.

Ive noticed a lot of ZSS players like to take her up into the air even if im not in the air myself. With Ness being strong up in the air is it a good idea to chase her up and try to punish her or is there a different approach to take to it?
If she has advantage: lots of nairs. Like, it will be able to stop most of what she's going to use to keep you juggled.

Avoid her up b at all costs. Don't approach from above (her usmash reach is ridiculous and her utilt is awesome).

Quick, aggressive approaches I would say work best. She's faster than us so be careful about your air dodges and landing lag. Don't be afraid to challenge and absorb her gun. Magnet cancel always. Off stage she's not too big of an issue as her vertical recovery is far worse than ours, just don't try and challenge too hard while coming back. Save your double jump, as always. If she whiffs a grab there's no reason that shouldn't be a free 30% or kill. Pkt gimping is very real (might even get a soft stage spike if you hit her while she's tethered).
 

Lochy

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Whatever you do don't get hit by her paralyzer she can easily capitalize on your faults. Absorbing her paralyzer is generally a bad idea (unless you magnet cancel) because she is so fast. Her jab can knock us out of a lot of stuff and if she spotdodges our pk fire because of her huge grab range and our general lack of ground speed we will get punished almost everytime. ZSS is very deadly in the air if you give her the chance. You have to play very cautiously against ZSS. But her recovery causes a lot of problems for her if we pull out pk thunder gimping tactics.

Overall,

Pros Ness has against ZSS

Nair beats out the paralyzer (as nair can negate it)

Ness' generally quick grab and pk fire are easy to get if ZSS wiffs her grab.

She is pretty tall so landing combo strings on her are easier than say kirby.

Her recovery can be gimped by our pk thunder.

Cons things Ness struggles against ZSS

Zero suit is very fast which makes us have to play very cautiously and it can be more difficult to get the grab.

Her tether grab range is huge! Landing lag or wiffing a pk fire or thunder is easy for Zero suit to punish.

She has an amazing combo game. Her paralyzer to grab leads to a bevy of up airs and at times an up b to our death. Her tilts also lead into short hop aerials.
Zero suit also has great moves to gimp us with not much trouble.

Her zair is a great zoning tool that can deny us the ability to get in.

Overall i think that ZSS has the advantage in the match up.
But i would love to be proven wrong X3
 

Trauma1

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jul 10, 2015
Messages
24
Whatever you do don't get hit by her paralyzer she can easily capitalize on your faults. Absorbing her paralyzer is generally a bad idea (unless you magnet cancel) because she is so fast. Her jab can knock us out of a lot of stuff and if she spotdodges our pk fire because of her huge grab range and our general lack of ground speed we will get punished almost everytime. ZSS is very deadly in the air if you give her the chance. You have to play very cautiously against ZSS. But her recovery causes a lot of problems for her if we pull out pk thunder gimping tactics.

Overall,

Pros Ness has against ZSS

Nair beats out the paralyzer (as nair can negate it)

Ness' generally quick grab and pk fire are easy to get if ZSS wiffs her grab.

She is pretty tall so landing combo strings on her are easier than say kirby.

Her recovery can be gimped by our pk thunder.

Cons things Ness struggles against ZSS

Zero suit is very fast which makes us have to play very cautiously and it can be more difficult to get the grab.

Her tether grab range is huge! Landing lag or wiffing a pk fire or thunder is easy for Zero suit to punish.

She has an amazing combo game. Her paralyzer to grab leads to a bevy of up airs and at times an up b to our death. Her tilts also lead into short hop aerials.
Zero suit also has great moves to gimp us with not much trouble.

Her zair is a great zoning tool that can deny us the ability to get in.

Overall i think that ZSS has the advantage in the match up.
But i would love to be proven wrong X3
So would you say making heavy use of short hop nair would be a decent strategy? Since ive noticed that a lot of ZSS's like to go for that paralyzer shot and you said our nair negates it
 

Lochy

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So would you say making heavy use of short hop nair would be a decent strategy? Since ive noticed that a lot of ZSS's like to go for that paralyzer shot and you said our nair negates it
Yes that would be a decent strategy to do. But obviously you will have to mix it up too. You can't keep doing the same thing and not get punished by a half-competent player. They will pick up on that strategy. Try to bait them out by conditioning them into think you will do a nair and then do something else like a fast fall fair, up air or bair. It will shock them and put them in an akward situation because they are so use to the nair strategy. Conditioning helps Ness out a lot in this match up and it helps you as a player overall :)
 
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Trauma1

Smash Rookie
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Messages
24
Nice! Thanks for the help. Been trying to get better at the game and finally decided on Ness being my first main.

That and ZSS is one of the characters i hate going against so this should help me get a better handle on it
 

Lochy

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Nice! Thanks for the help. Been trying to get better at the game and finally decided on Ness being my first main.

That and ZSS is one of the characters i hate going against so this should help me get a better handle on it
I hate going against her too but from my many matches against ZSS (my best friend mains her and he is really good with her) is that patience is a virtue. Slow and steady totally wins the race here. Only be agressive when something is wiffed by ZSS.
Also I see you are new to Smashboards. Welcome to the Ness boards happy to have you here. We may not be most busy forum but we are defintely one of the sweetest with very nice, passionate and overall helpful people here! :)
 

David Viran

Smash Lord
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I keep hearing ness can gimp zss but have not seen or experienced this. My friend is a ness main too.
 

Asa

Smash Hero
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Gimping Zss comes down to hitting her out of her downb.. After that her recovery is pretty average. Keeping a pkt around her when she wants to use it helps that aim. It does have a good amount of invincibility though, so avoid using a pkt too close to her since she'll plow through it and hit you.

She's. Up era le as she Saira the ledge as well. A nair deals with that nicely, or pkt.

What stages do you prefer against zss? Bans/cps?
 

Kathuzada

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Since ZSS is being talked about here, I was wondering does anyone know the hitbox on the downb kick? I was playing against my roommate yesterday and I pkf him while he is on the ledge and he drops off. I rush forward to where I would be under the arc of the kick, presumably safe, and pkt towards him, as expected he did his downb. His downb kick was facing away from me when it was used and his character model was not anywhere near me, yet I got sent flying off the stage.
 

David Viran

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Gimping Zss comes down to hitting her out of her downb.. After that her recovery is pretty average. Keeping a pkt around her when she wants to use it helps that aim. It does have a good amount of invincibility though, so avoid using a pkt too close to her since she'll plow through it and hit you.

She's. Up era le as she Saira the ledge as well. A nair deals with that nicely, or pkt.

What stages do you prefer against zss? Bans/cps?
I still don't see how pkt will gimp her. I heard someone say stage spiking but zss has more than enough time to tech those. As long as the zss isn't stupid with their second jump they should recover most of the time from my experience.
 

Lotuz

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hvlvk3imOwI&
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5pOZKc8dlo&

I'd add those matches to the startpost. Fsann vs Choco at Umebura 15, LF and WF.

The tail of PKT can interrupt down b / up b, but a good zss shouldn't get gimped, she simply has too many mix-up options when recovering. Btw, DSmash can be absorbed, so if she charges it to cover your ledge get-up you might want to ledgehop and go for psi-magnet.
 
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Earthbound360

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Oh gawd you put my match against Bengalz up lol. That was a long time ago, and I did NOT know the matchup back then. I'm much better at it now XP
That match really shouldn't be used as a measurement of how to fight ZSS.

Anyways, ZSS is a very annoying matchup that I still think is in our favor. You just have to know how to play it. First tip I want to mention is that cowering in your shield is fine in this matchup, and I recommend it (with proper moderation of course). ZSS just has no way of pressuring your shield, breaking it, and her grab is just too risky to try. If she screws up a grab, that should be a lot of damage for free. This is my #1 here: Don't be afraid to shield turtle.

Now oddly enough, I don't know if you want to be constantly challenging her in the air. Her aerials are fast, and have a lot of range. Mostly zair. Zair is annoying. It's probably what saves her from having an even worse matchup here. You're not gonna outrage it, you're not gonna punish it. But honestly, I don't feel like you need to challenge it so much. Like I said, you shouldn't be afraid to play defensively in this match. Run in and shield a lot to approach her through her obnoxious zair. Then, it's a matter of making moves out of shield.
ZSS players like to toss out aerials out of SH when up close. You'll want to S/FH aerial out of shield with different timing based on when they habitually aerial. If they aerial on the way up from the SH, nair OoS after the hit. If they do it late for reaction, do your nair sooner. I recommend nair most for situations in which you accidentally trade. If you get under ZSS and you're feeling brave, you can try uair (her SH is tall).

Basically, build up your damage through defensive aerials launched from the close range ground. Don't just go full or SHing aerials willy nilly unless you wanna get paralyzed or zaired.

Now let's talk about her shield.
DO. NOT. TOUCH IT.
Utilt and UpB out of shield are very good and very fast. Utilt has shield frames and HUGE horizontal range. It sets you up in to uair juggles, and trust me, you do NOT want that. UpB we all know as the super quick, super strong KO move.
IMPORTANT: When you are at KO percent, do not EVER AERIAL ZSS' SHIELD. If you deny her one of her easiest KO options, then you make it significantly harder for her to KO you. Pair that with all the rage you have, her light frame, and our immense KO power, and we've got MUCH less to worry about. Don't be afraid to play super campy and lame if you're both on last hit status.

I highly recommend this video for surviving boost kick. But read my extra notes just under the video too!
Some things I just wanna add:
If you are INSIDE ZSS when she boost kicks, you can DI towards her to cross up and escape.
Mash air dodge; there's no reason not to. Sometimes not all of the little hits connect, and you can air dodge out of the last one.
Nick Riddle said to di down and away to survive the last hit. While this holds true for surviving dying off the top, what if boost kick is about to kill you off the side? In this situation, you'll be dying SOONER. DI towards her if you're in fear of dying off the sides.

The funny thing about ZSS is that while she has a lot of low risk moves, a lot of her best moves (on hit) are super free if missed or blocked. So please, destroy her for missing that boost kick, or whiffing that grab. Ness has a powerful punish game, and I expect you to use it.

Other things about specific moves:

You can absorb paralyzer and dsmash. Dsmash is pretty impractical. You'll only get that on a hard read, but at least it heals a nice chunk. Paralyzer is what's good though. Smart ZSS players will use it in situations where it'll be harder to react with the magnet, so just keep your trigger finger ready so you can get the free food. Watch out for B reverses too. Make SURE you know how to magnet cancel. Mix it up too, don't always roll back. Jump, spot dodge, or even usmash out of it sometimes. A lot of ZSS players like to go in for the punish on the magnet (as they should).

Uncharged paralyzers don't combo into grab unless very close. Be ready to spot dodge or roll if you get tagged with one of these (but don't be predictable).

You can bat back paralyzers if you predict them, or they are really obvious with the charging. Don't get too cocky though, this is just a little trick you can try every now and then. Be ready to go for that grab if you get it though.

The best time to "punish" reckless flip jump use is to hit it right at the apex of the jump. At that point, she loses the invulnerability (yes, there's a TON at the start of the move, so don't challenge it there), and she cannot attack yet. It can be hard to react and get this hit, plus this move HURTS if it nails you, so don't be greedy with it. Just know that that point of vulnerability is there.

Be very wary of immediate tethers into flip jump right off the edge too. You don't wanna get buried and boost kicked to heaven. I very rarely try to challenge ZSS coming up from the ledge. Maybe that's my mistake, but she just has so many options out of it, and getting hit by flip jump hurts.

If you block a flip jump, ZSS is pretty vulnerable. She bounces off, and can still move and do things, but her options are severely limited. I'm not exactly sure of the entire list of things she can and can't do off the top of my head (don't wanna guess and be wrong lol), but it's still not a comfortable position for her, especially since her dair kinda sucks. Try your hardest to take advantage of her on the way down.

If you challenge flip jump, but are uncertain of your attempt, be ready to tech. It could save your life. In fact, always be read to tech if challenging flip jump. You don't wanna bounce up into a bair.

SH bairs are the most annoying thing up close. Space yourself properly if they're getting too comfortable with them, and go for the nair or uairs as a countermeasure. She can't zair you if she's facing backwards.

Dthrow. Uair, uair, uair, boost kick. I prefer to DI away from her to avoid uairs best I can. DIing towards her still subjects you to uair, but i just hate being over ZSS. You shouldn't really be caught by the boost kick that often if you DI away and air dodge smartly either. It's very hard to space a boost kick to KO a smaller character like Ness too (it's dragging little hits can be finnicky at times). Just be sure to watch out for fair out of dthrow killing you early off the sides. Still, dthrow fair hurts less than dthrow uair, uair.

That's all I've got for now. I haven't lost to a ZSS since that match of mine with Bengalz since I started thinking about this matchup straight :)
 

Noa.

Smash Master
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So I want a gauge on how you guys feel about stages in this matchup?

Which stages should we ban? And which should we counterpick?

Try to name at least three for each.

Ban:

Halberd: You don't want to die to her upB all the time. This stage is super awful against ZSS.

Battlefield: ZSS is amazing at juggling us with these platforms to help her. Her uair, usmash, utilt, dash attack, and dash grab are all very potent for juggling, and I think they work even better on this stage. The platforms also allow her to vertically chase us much more effectively. Scary stage against ZSS.

Dreamland: Similar case to Battleifield. The platform arrangement is not as oppressive to us as battlefield, but the ceiling is a bit lower.

Town and City: I don't think this stage is that awful against ZSS, but it's important to mention it since it has the second lowest ceiling out of the legal stages. Her vertical KO options are more potent than mine.

Pick:

FD: I like to avoid platforms if I can against ZSS. FD as no platforms.

Smashville: Gimping ZSS is practically impossible so the platform won't hurt us here. Being able to stay close to ZSS is nice so a short stage is useful.

Castle Siege: The first stage is petite, so we can stick close to ZSS. ZSS has trouble killing off the sides. She doesn't have easy access to moves that do a decent amount of knockback early like we do.
 

Pazx

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ZSS's best 4 stages imo are Halberd, Dream Land, Lylat and Battlefield, although Delfino would certainly be in the conversation. Playing as Ness, I'd ban them in that order (ie I'd rather go to Battlefield or Delfino than the others). I think if your ZSS opponent is inconsistent with their up-b or you find yourself popping out of it it'd be alright to not ban Halberd. I like Noa's choices for our stage counterpicks though, CS is probably our best although ZSS's mobility may be extra-good on the second transformation.

Slight aside - ZSS must love conservative stage lists. What do you do when you can only ban one out of Battlefield, Dream Land, Lylat, Halberd and Delfino? Seems dumb as hell, but I guess she's just a good character in general.
 
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Noa.

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Strong characters are good on lots of stages. Ness is also really good on most stages I feel.

Thankfully my area has two bans. And that's just wonderful.
 

David Viran

Smash Lord
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I don't know how much this messes with the MU but jab -> up b is guaranteed on ness.
 

Noa.

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I feel that Ness has a very solid advantage in the Zss matchup.

His short height is not easy for Zss to deal with. Zss relies pretty heavily on nair, and zair in the neutral. Both of these options are somewhat made limited by Ness's height. She can only land these aerials pretty late into her jump. This telegraphs Zss's aerial approaches and options pretty heavily. Ness can't punish a well spaced nair on shield, but it doesn't really leave zss in a good position. She doesn't want to get in range of Ness nair really. It's just such a fast aerial with such a large hitbox. Zss can't also do empty hops into tomahawks that well because of her 16 frame grab. Zss also has other decent tools in neutral between paralyzer and dsmash. But these two options also have to be used sparingly by Zss against Ness, because they can heal him for quite a lot.

Zss can juggle ness pretty well, but she isn't threatening when Ness retreats to the ledge. Dsmash is a useful tool for Zss on the ledge but again, make one mistake with it and we heal for a huge amount.

When Zss is on the ledge, she can he hard to pin down actually. Her down b gives her a lot of liberty to combat our anti ledge options like dsmash and nair. As a Ness player, you shouldn't commit to any options while she's on the ledge, or you can get punished by a downB.

Zss isn't super threatening to a Ness offstage. The hitboxes on fair and Bair are pretty tight so hitting Ness with them is not easy. If Ness is forced to use PK Thunder there's a good chance that Zss can land a Bair, but it requires a lot of technical precision and if ZSS messes up she can die very early. I don't personably feel incredibly threatened by Zss offstage.

It's practically impossible for Ness to gimp Zss. The only way it happens is if Zss goes for a very hard read offstage and gets hit, or if she makes a mistake herself and kills herself. If Ness somehow hits Zss with an aerial after she has down B'd, and used her double jump, there is the potential for Ness to gimp Zss. Just use the thunder of Pk Thunder to block any path that Zss has to the edge with her side b. Just cover the bottom pathway of the ledge. Zss pulls herself up from below the ledge. This is the only time you can gimp her, and it almost never happens.

It's hard to get past Zss's uair when you're getting juggled because it's so fast. She can also capture your landings with her grab. So always just try to reset back to the ledge if you are above her.

You have to change the way you use Pk Thunder against Zss. If you want to harass her while she's recovering, make sure you pl Thunder pretty far from the edge of the stage. If you do it to lo closely then she can down B over the Pk Thunder and kick you. This is a pretty hard punish so do not let that happen. Also make sure you Pk Thunder early. You have to force her to use her down b somewhat early. Zss gains intangibility very early on in her flip jump. I'm not sure of the exact frame, but I think it's something like frame 4. She loses her intangibility a little before the apex of her jump, and after the apex she can convert it to the kick. Make sure to put the Pk Thunder in the path of her flip jump. If you try to approach her head on or from below she can just flip jump over Pk Thunder for free, and you have a very low chance of hitting her. You have to make sure to put Pk Thunder in the way of flip jump, it is very important. You should really only expect to land one or two Pk thunders while Zss is recovering.

When Zss is above you, it can be sometimes difficult to juggle her with Pk Thunder. If you commit too heavily in a direction, she can use dair to recover back to stage for free. Her dair will also beat the head of Pk Thunder as well. You have to leave a tail always in the path of her dair. When you do get close to Zss she can always just down B away. Pk Thunder is not very effective at juggling Zss when she's above the stage for these reasons.

Ness doesn't have to change too much when he's playing against Zss. It's a pretty simple matchup. The thing you really have to watch out for is her down B when she's recovering, cause she can quickly punish you for committing to an option too heavily.

Now I haven't mentioned the big tool for Zss, which is her uair uair up B. This is opened up to her from her dthrow. It is very important to learn how to play around her grab. It is incredibly slow, frame 16. If you suspect she's going for a grab, sh nair towards her face. Avoid hitting her shield with landing aerials. No matter how good your spacing is, she can shield grab you cause of its great range. Zss can punish landings with a grab because it's disjointed. To beat this option, you can Pk Thunder before you land into the grab range and hit her. If she's not expecting it you can get out of the situation for free. Otherwise just try to go for the ledge instead of landing on stage. It's important to not get grabbed by Zss. It's a source of a lot of her power, damage, and kill power. So don't get grabbed.
 

Tobi_Whatever

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@ Earthbound360 Earthbound360
"Uncharged paralyzers don't combo into grab unless very close."
The other way round, it doesn't combo into grab unless it's at least dash grab range

"If you block a flip jump, ZSS is pretty vulnerable. She bounces off, and can still move and do things"
Nah, only move horizontally until we reach the same height we started to bounce of. Since we still can move horizontally while landing, I recommend punishing with something that hits on both sides.

"Dthrow. Uair, uair, uair, boost kick. I prefer to DI away from her to avoid uairs best I can."
It's "only" two uAirs. Also mix up the DI, we have no problem hitting you with the full combo if we know how you DI.

Otherwise very solid stuff.

You want stages with slants against us. It messes with our nSpecial and sTilts. NEVER EVER get us on either Halberd or Delfino. BF and Dreamland is pretty good too for us.

nSpecial ITT is overrated. We use it to poke but we don't need to rely on it. zAir is a much superior choice for us in this MU.
Don't just mash nAir to get out of disadvantage. 1. we can space so you don't hit us and 2. if we get a read you will get punished heavily.
 

Noa.

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@ Earthbound360 Earthbound360
"Uncharged paralyzers don't combo into grab unless very close."
The other way round, it doesn't combo into grab unless it's at least dash grab range

"If you block a flip jump, ZSS is pretty vulnerable. She bounces off, and can still move and do things"
Nah, only move horizontally until we reach the same height we started to bounce of. Since we still can move horizontally while landing, I recommend punishing with something that hits on both sides.

"Dthrow. Uair, uair, uair, boost kick. I prefer to DI away from her to avoid uairs best I can."
It's "only" two uAirs. Also mix up the DI, we have no problem hitting you with the full combo if we know how you DI.

Otherwise very solid stuff.

You want stages with slants against us. It messes with our nSpecial and sTilts. NEVER EVER get us on either Halberd or Delfino. BF and Dreamland is pretty good too for us.

nSpecial ITT is overrated. We use it to poke but we don't need to rely on it. zAir is a much superior choice for us in this MU.
Don't just mash nAir to get out of disadvantage. 1. we can space so you don't hit us and 2. if we get a read you will get punished heavily.
Thanks for the handful of corrections. They're very useful.
 

pichuthedk

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@Noa zss can gimp you actually kind of easily but it really depends on how you recover, as well as how brave/precise she is.

Flip jump kicks are far to risky despite the fact that I threw away a GF set theory crafting against it.

Just off the top of my head heres a few ways.
-Run off zair aiming specifically for the thunder ball.

-sh off and paralyzer (she can choose to let go when ever so it's easier to aim then most would think, does require precision though)

-Either sh or run off side b/wave bounce side b (for the semi spike knock back or the thunder ball)

Not sure how things are with the pk shield change but we used to get grabs off absorbs made by ness [at the right spacing].

I kinda feel like a run up JC up b might have been possible as well.
 
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Tobi_Whatever

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@Noa zss can gimp you actually kind of easily but it really depends on how you recover, as well as how brave/precise she is.

Flip jump kicks are far to risky despite the fact that I threw away a GF set theory crafting against it.

Just off the top of my head heres a few ways.
-Run off zair aiming specifically for the thunder ball.

-sh off and paralyzer (she can choose to let go when ever so it's easier to aim then most would think, does require precision though)

-Either sh or run off side b/wave bounce side b (for the semi spike knock back or the thunder ball)

Not sure how things are with the pk shield change but we used to get grabs off absorbs made by ness [at the right spacing].

I kinda feel like a run up JC up b might have been possible as well.
You forgot the laziest one, run off > fAir.
 

Noa.

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@Noa zss can gimp you actually kind of easily but it really depends on how you recover, as well as how brave/precise she is.

Flip jump kicks are far to risky despite the fact that I threw away a GF set theory crafting against it.

Just off the top of my head heres a few ways.
-Run off zair aiming specifically for the thunder ball.

-sh off and paralyzer (she can choose to let go when ever so it's easier to aim then most would think, does require precision though)

-Either sh or run off side b/wave bounce side b (for the semi spike knock back or the thunder ball)

Not sure how things are with the pk shield change but we used to get grabs off absorbs made by ness [at the right spacing].

I kinda feel like a run up JC up b might have been possible as well.
Any character can kill Ness if he's forced to use Pk Thunder 2 and there's enough time for them to counter it.

Characters that are threatening to Ness offstage are characters that can easily hit him out if his double jump. They have to have huge hitboxes, a lot of aerial speed, and good frame data. Ness has a really good double jump, and his aerials are very powerful against characters trying to impede his recovery. Nair is fast and has a huge hitbox and fair has a gigantic disjointed hitbox. Most characters don't have aerials to challenge Ness. If ness can make it back with just his double jump he's usually fine, unless the characters has the tools to combat his aerials and to force him to use Pk Thunder to recover.

I do not feel like Zss is threatening offstage. She has good aerial mobility and great frame data, but her hitboxes are quite small. It's difficult for her to cover multiple double jump, airdodges, and aerial attack timings. Because of this she does not easily knock Ness out of his double jump. Bair has a petit hitbox, and nair also doesn't have a hitbox that large. Uair has a huge hitbox but it has a very vertical angle so it's not useful for edgegaueding. Fair might have a large enough hitbox to be threatening but I haven't seen very aggressive use of fair against Ness offstage. The only Zss i have seen edge guard aggressively is Leon, and I haven't seen him play against a Ness.

If Ness uses Pk Thunder, yes he's dead. But he doesn't usually have to use Pk Thunder to recover. You have to throw him offstage without his double jump, and that is not that easy to do.
 

pichuthedk

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Well I can see where you are going with that, since I don't have as much extensive experience in edgeguarding ness I'll leave it at that.

Ofc Leon would be the one mentioned in terms of aggressive edgeguards lol.

The most aggressive Yolo edgeguard I got on a Ness was down b ledge cancel -> instant down b and kicking Far off stage.

The Ness didn't have time to react or soemthing I can't remember.
 

Noa.

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Well I can see where you are going with that, since I don't have as much extensive experience in edgeguarding ness I'll leave it at that.

Ofc Leon would be the one mentioned in terms of aggressive edgeguards lol.

The most aggressive Yolo edgeguard I got on a Ness was down b ledge cancel -> instant down b and kicking Far off stage.

The Ness didn't have time to react or soemthing I can't remember.
Yeah sometimes Zss can down B spike Ness before he sweet spots the ledge when he pkt2s.

I mean maybe Zss can be super aggressive offstage and super threatening to Ness. I just haven't seen it happen do often. Lots of Zss seem to focus on punishing the ledge rather than edge guarding directly.
 

pichuthedk

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Yeah sometimes Zss can down B spike Ness before he sweet spots the ledge when he pkt2s.

I mean maybe Zss can be super aggressive offstage and super threatening to Ness. I just haven't seen it happen do often. Lots of Zss seem to focus on punishing the ledge rather than edge guarding directly.
It's because she's In such an inconsistent position when it comes to that aspect of the game due to a variety of bs,
I have literally been penalized for teching a wall spike by getting footstooled immediately as soon as the tech ended because a fast faller was spamming jump to try and get back to the stage(don't even get me started with the fact that you need to up b immediately if you do a wall jump tech if you don't want to tether).

footstool at just below the ledge=auto death for zss on most stages that have narrow bottoms since you can't down b wall jump reliably.

Hit off stage during a recover ? "No problem I'll just side b tether" *samus proceeds to do normal side b ignoring the need to tether "guess not?".

However to be fair she hasn't been touched since like the first patch so it's whatever at this point.
 
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Tobi_Whatever

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It's because she's In such an inconsistent position when it comes to that aspect of the game due to a variety of bs,
I have literally been penalized for teching a wall spike by getting footstooled immediately as soon as the tech ended because a fast faller was spamming jump to try and get back to the stage(don't even get me started with the fact that you need to up b immediately if you do a wall jump tech if you don't want to tether).

footstool at just below the ledge=auto death for zss on most stages that have narrow bottoms since you can't down b wall jump reliably.

Hit off stage during a recover ? "No problem I'll just side b tether" *samus proceeds to do normal side b ignoring the need to tether "guess not?".

However to be fair she hasn't been touched since like the first patch so it's whatever at this point.
sSpecial tether doesn't work right after getting hit because you still suffer from the hit penalty that prevents you from grabbing the ledge.
 

pichuthedk

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sSpecial tether doesn't work right after getting hit because you still suffer from the hit penalty that prevents you from grabbing the ledge.
Yeah I know just saying how inconvienient it is especially when you are already slightly below ledge level and have to wait like 10 frames to even attempt the tether, although in most cases it's probably easier to just upair and then tether
 

EarthBoundEnigma

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Does anyone else get the sense that Ness is best-off fighting nearer to the ledge than from center stage, against ZSS? It seems she commands center stage a little too well, but spacing her to the edge may help us by reducing how much ground she has to work with.
 

Lochy

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Does anyone else get the sense that Ness is best-off fighting nearer to the ledge than from center stage, against ZSS? It seems she commands center stage a little too well, but spacing her to the edge may help us by reducing how much ground she has to work with.
I think Ness should fight near the ledge but don't be put in a situation to recoved because ZSS can just Dsmash and stun you before the hit the ledge. Then they have to Down B you and then there goes your stock.
 
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