Ness Matchup Discussion - Rosalina

[Noa.]

Rosalina

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Art Credit goes to Amaterasu 121

-2: Solid Disadvantage

Frame Data ( Hitbox comes out on frame: )
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Move|Ness|Rosalina|Luma
Jab|3|8|4
Dash Attack|8|6|6
Ftilt|7|7|8
Utilt|7|9|3
Dtilt|3|5|8
Fsmash|21|16|17
Usmash|6|8|10
Dsmash|10|6|7
Nair|5|9|3
Fair|8|11|11
Bair|10|9|10
Uair|8|8|3
Dair|20|17|8
Grab|6|6
Dash Grab|8|8
Pivot Grab|10|9

General Stats
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Attribute|Ness|Rosalina
Weight|30th (94)|46th (78)
Dash Speed|40th (1.46)|24th (1.632)
Walk Speed|47th (.8635)|29th (1.0835)
Air Speed|31st (.9588)|26th (1)
Fall Speed|42nd (1.31)|50th (1.25)

Bthrow Kill Percent​

Closest|Middle|Farthest|Mean
86|118|1142|115.333

Videos

Shaky vs Dabuz​

Fow vs Dabuz​

 

[EarthBoundEnigma]

This replay is needed, while we're on the topic:
Awestin vs iGGY

It is important to see what matchup-specific techniques actually work, and can be used to some success.
Awestin has demonstrated several times in this series that if you use PKT close enough to Rosalina, you can take damage and get another PKT immediately.

 

[franniested]

I like how he would use pkt 2, planning on being punished, but also immediately taking luma out of the equation. Calculated risk. Best use of pkt in general vs a Rosalina That I've ever seen

 

[EarthBoundEnigma]

It was also very smart to juggle the Luma and cart it offstage to just fall to its death. The commentators made note of the tactic and explained how it works. (Awestin vs iGGY)

 

[Asa]

You need a very strong neutral game to handle this mu. Eliminating Luma Id crucial. She can be exploited offstage so maximum punishes need to be used there.

Pkt will kill Luna offstage. Nair is good against Luma.pkf is good on her too but there is a spacing where Luna floats above grounded pkf height.

Usmash hits luma high in the air so you can combo her.

Dsmash hits rosa under the stage when she recovers. She can get hit by most anything really, but dsmash has the best Angle. Her landing options aren't super good as well so capitalize on that.

 

[EnhaloTricks]

As far as landing goes, watch out for Lunar Landings. It makes her Luma hit around her (nair) while rosalina autocancels into the ground. It's VERY tricky and can catch you off guard and knock you far away. So her landing options, if they know to do this and can do it well, become really hard to notice.

Her fair also can jab lock (I think, i dont know if her jab can actually lock but its the perfect bounce and kb) or lead into a smash with Luma if they fast fall it.

 

[Noa.]

I'll quote what I said in the Rosa thread.

All right so I think this matchup is +2 in Rosa's favor. I do sometimes consider +1 for Rosa cause it's not that awful, but it is solidly in Rosa's favor. I do play this matchup a lot and I feel like the matchup is perfectly winnable at a mid and low level. Perhaps at a top player level it may not be winnable as shown by Dabuz against Fow and Shaky. Not sure about that though because I don't think either of them played the matchup that amazingly and Dabuz has historically been a stronger player than the both of them.

Rosa wins in neutral but it's not that bad for Ness. Dash attack outranges a lot of Rosa's moveset and will pop Luma into the air which allows some time away from Luma for a bit. Dash grab doesn't really work well against Rosa at all unless the Ness player has conditioned her to shield as he's dashing to her.

Short hops are a very poor option to approach Rosalina because Ness can't make it pass Luma. Most of Rosa's smashes will stuff any approach Ness makes with a short hop.

Full hopping with Ness isn't too bad. If she tries to dsmash or jab Ness as he's falling down in between Rosa and Luma then he can just nair her head. If she shields his landing he can land an grab her. Usmash is the strongest option that Rosa has against a Ness that full hops against her. It will stuff both an empty landing and a landing aerial. Rosa's usmash is like the worst part of the matchup for Ness imo. It really limits his options when he's trying to land. When approaching with a full hop the only option Ness has against Rosa's usmash is to just bait it out from her and then try to land just outside of those hitboxes and then punish the end lag of it with a dash attack or dash grab.

PK fire can hit Luma if she's really low. That usually happens when she's doing ditlt, dsmash, or jab. It hits pretty inconsistently though and is difficult to rely on. When pk fire activates on Luma it won't be much of a hassle for Rosa herself but it can quickly rack up damage on Luma. Ness generally speaking doesn't have too much trouble with killing Luma because his aerials have huge hitboxes so when he lands them they more often than not end up hitting both Rosa and Luma. Ness also has a pretty high damage on hit as well. Rosa usually has a pretty easy time just jumping out of Pk fire because of her floatiness.

Ness's dash attack is incredibly important in this matchup for catching Rosa's landing and having Luma temporarily out of the way.

In the neutral Ness can poke at and damage Luma with aerials and with really good spacing and a double jump it can be difficult for Rosa to punish him for doing that.

So yeah Rosa does do better than Ness in Neutral but it isn't too awful for him.

The real pain is disadvantage for Ness. It is super awful and he gets wrecked by Rosa in this state. It's the reason way it's so awful for Ness. Landing is so very hard for Ness because of Uair, Usmash, and Dash attack. To get out of uair juggles from other characters Ness usually air dodges past them and tries to hit his opponent with a nair or uair. But Rosa's uair with Luma has such a huge hitbox that he can't airdodge past it.

Usmash as I have mentioned before just powers through any of Ness's aerials and will destroy Ness if he tries to land with an airdodge or empty landing. This is especially true if Luma is still alive.

If Ness just tries to drift away from Rosa, she can just dash attack his landing and if Luma is there, his aerials will not win.

If luma is alive his only option is to retreat to ledge, and Ness still has a hard time getting onstage between Rosa's smashes, grab, and jab.

If Ness is ever forced to use pk thunder offstage he's dead. With a hard read if you knock him offstage without a double jump he's dead.

Ness can exploit Rosa's recovery with smart use of pk thunder and his aerials, but this edgeguarding requires a lot of matchup experience on Ness's part. If Ness makes one small mistake while edgeguarding he's dead though.

The margin of error is really small for Ness in this matchup. He has to play very well all the time. He also cannot press his advantage too strongly. He has to play really cautiously at all times. Often times ness mains play way too aggressively and risky and you just cannot do that against Rosa.

 

[Lochy]

I'll quote what I said in the Rosa thread.

Well put.

 

[BlueberrySyrup]

You need a very strong neutral game to handle this mu. Eliminating Luma Id crucial. She can be exploited offstage so maximum punishes need to be used there.

Pkt will kill Luna offstage. Nair is good against Luma.pkf is good on her too but there is a spacing where Luna floats above grounded pkf height.

Usmash hits luma high in the air so you can combo her.

Dsmash hits rosa under the stage when she recovers. She can get hit by most anything really, but dsmash has the best Angle. Her landing options aren't super good as well so capitalize on that.

Sadly if you use usmash to hit Luma a lot of the time Rosalina will just hit you for it. And then comes the down b gimp

 

[Asa]

Usmash after you throw rosa. Can also be used oos to punish a landing or an atk on your shield

 

[NorCal_DSS]

It's definitely winnable, but I honestly feel as though this matchup is almost not worth playing as Ness. I played against Falln in LF at a SoCal tournament, and I only went Ness for 2 of the games (1-1) because I felt so limited playing as him. Your options are restricted, and the possibility of dying at 0 is looming in the background.

Key to the matchup is getting Rosa offstage, and working on your offstage punishes. Definitely practice catching Rosa out of her up b to the ledge with dsmash--this is the most critical aspect for getting early kills. PK Fire can work since it activates on luma, but make sure to space it out or you'll get called out hard for throwing it out. Back air is a great spacing tool imo. Work on your ground/grab game, and don't pummel.

+Keep her offstage/in the air
+Space super hard. Weave in and out with Bair, Uair, and play a much better neutral
+PKT2 (even if she's shield), dsmash, and fsmash auto kill luma. Dsmash is probably the safest option, but be careful with throwing it out on Rosa's shield if she's near either edge.
-Don't be in the air; we lose
-Don't go offstage
-Don't be overaggressive

I'd honestly just recommend picking up a secondary. Meta Knight does great against Rosa (Dash attack at 25% to Uair strings x 4/5 kill).

 

[Luco]

Oh, did no-one mention Dsmash at the ledge? I'm pretty sure because of Rosa's build it catches the 1-frame vulnerability window, and it's super important and swings the off-stage game from "lol Ness can't compete" to "pretty much if either are forced to recover low or far out they're dead".

Hmm, maybe I'm exaggerating... But maybe I'm not. I'm not perfect at it and I went against one of UKs top Rosa players (DX) and won a set against him (I lost against him later that tournament in loser's finals but the strategy itself should work if you perfect your timing) abusing Dsmash at the ledge.

You have to be careful of Luma there too of course but normally Rosa has her with her.

And taking Luma out of the equation early is also paramount in the neutral.

At top level the records are obviously bad, but I really do think Ness mains will develop the tech needed to change this MU to a -1 as Dabuz has mentioned the MU probably is in reality.

 

[_clinton]

Every chance I get I burn luma. Also uair kills so well.

 

[Noa.]

Dsmash at the ledge can hit Rosa before she grabs the ledge. If Rosa is trying to grab the ledge with her UpB you can hit her out of it. The timing on it is tight and the spacing of dsmash is weird. You want to be practically on top of the ledge and then dsmash. The yoyo should be going slightly offstage. The timing and spacing is very different from trying to punish a ledge option.