Ness match up discussion (lol B-throw)

[Berserker.]

vs

Discuss

 

[Luco]

You mightn't know it, but Good ol @ Berserker. and I are good buddies that have known each other for years and never actually versed each other. As such our MU knowledge is perfect and we should be considered the gods of this discussion.

On a more serious note, my favourite thread of all time (http://smashboards.com/threads/nesss-back-throw-and-ko-percents-the-thread.387966/ ) which I use in like every MU discussion I go to now states that Shulk will die from Bthrow at the ledge at 97%, from centre FD at 134% and at the far edge at 161%. Shield Shulk takes these percentages up to 122%, 186% and 221% respectively, so aside from the edge we're basically going to use Dthrow for SICK COMBOZ if you're using shield at 100-130% instead of Bthrow because Shield Shulk is bogus. Even though I know you guys like, never use smash ever, for consistency's sake (kinda, also because I want to feel good about my life slightly), in smash the percentages go down to 85%, 119% and 143%. Unlike most characters, the knowledge of these percentages helps you a lot more than it helps us because you can actually change your weight stats unlike everyone else bar WFT and the Miis, so you'll probably actually be living pretty late with us, or more accurately, around 130% + the amount of time you spend in shield stance depending on our rage and our ability to get a grab.

Shulk's range really gives us a sad time occasionally. Usually the best solution against an aggro shulk is... to be aggro back because our aerials will just win if we get them out first and you're in range. But I hear that your meta game is leaning towards a more spacey kind of game which includes the use of things like Utilt which kinda makes our life a little bit more crummy. You guys also have a pretty decent edge-guarding game against us and with Jump we're almost never going to get you edge-guarded (*le sigh*). I think our biggest saving grace in this MU is a really strong combo game against you guys, and some really nicely ranged aerials that can challenge you in the air well as well as stuff like reverse SH Bair which probably safe on shield. For some reason I hate vision in this MU, we would have a beastly combo game against you guys too if you didn't have vision to challenge us the moment we mis-time something. I also think our juggle game is pretty potent against you guys, maybe you can get past it with the extra mobility of Jump or Speed though.

I haven't really played this MU at high level actually, so FORGIVE THE THEORYCRAFT. I'mma let someone else who's actually played this MU either verify or disprove anything I've said and add their own stuff. Also Berserker is quite well attuned to this MU because we talk about our characters to each other all the time so I have no doubt he has some really good stuff to contribute.

I wish we could give a rating, but okayyyyyyy. ;_;

 

[Berserker.]

OP updated

 

[Luco]

I think the MU is prooooooobably about even, as hard as I make it sound.

Open to other interpretations of that though. =3

 

[TWILTHERO]

I've played a few really good Ness' online before, and while I actually think the matchup is fairly even, I absolutely hate playing it sometimes lol. Not sure if I'd rather use my sub Pikachu for this fight, but here's my 2 cents.

Unlike most projectile characters, Shulk can't simply swat away PK Fire with SH NAir (unless I'm doing it wrong...) because while Shulk may still be safe if spaced right, all it'll do is cause the fire to activate and prevent him from approaching. Sometimes it's just better to block it and punish with an FSmash. On the other hand, Ness can't simply just use his up special recover careless because Vision countering it will almost guarantee the stock.

Best thing to do in this matchup is to be patient. Shulk definitely has the range to keep Ness out, but if Ness should get in, you'll want to get out as soon as possible. You absolutely do not want to get grabbed and then comboed into multiple FAirs or hit by PK Fire because Shulk will take a lot of damage if he's hit by either (especially in Jump/Buster). Ness likes being in the air a lot and most of his aerials are safe if they retreat properly (I mostly see Ness use FAir to approach), but UTilt's a great tool for anti airing the character. NAir/FAir are also decent options for getting Ness off of you should he get too comfortable approaching you. BAir's good too if spaced right, but Shulk players should definitely want to MALLC it every chance they can get.

I mostly like using Speed in this matchup. While Ness may be stronger in the air, I think Shulk's stronger on the ground (aside from that dash attack that always keeps catching me by surprise...). Shulk will want to play his normal Speed game with good tilts and while his grab game isn't as strong as Ness, it's still pretty alright for mixing Ness up. Once Shulk has the advantage, you don't want to let it up, though be mindful of Ness' OoS NAir. I actually don't like using Buster too much until mid percentage since Ness doesn't want to stay on the ground too much, making shield pressure hard, though I still like using it for Shulk's powerful F/Bthrows. If Shulk can get Ness off stage, Jump art is a useful and mostly safe option to go for edgeguarding with FAir and stuff, though I've had Ness' airdodge me and go for his powerful UAir. Shield's good for not immediately dying to Ness' BThrow like said before, but I'd actually avoid using Smash at high percentages as it makes said BThrow (along with Ness' FSmash and UAir) all the more dangerous.

I do think the matchup is fairly even overall if not maybe a slight favor for Ness. Most of my experience comes from FG matches and a few really good Ness players on another forum. I'm probably missing a few other things, but that's my take of it.

 

[Berserker.]

Also Berserker is quite well attuned to this MU because we talk about our characters to each other all the time so I have no doubt he has some really good stuff to contribute.

From what I remember.....

Art usage

Speed art will always be the best art to use against Ness. It should always be used since you'll need the mobility to keep up or to run away from Ness if he ever gets close to you. Jump art has a similar purpose except you have the chance of landing an early KO on Ness if you manage to land n-air on him (from there, you can either go for u-tilt > f-air > f-air/air slash or just f-air > f-air. percentage dependent). Only problem with jump is that getting combo'd while you're in the art is quite painful, so take advantage of your mobility and jump height to be more evasive. Buster art is a risk here because on one hand, you can play against Ness at mid-range and harass his shield with your high-damaging attacks. On the flip side, messing up your spacing will result to you taking a lot of damage. Not much since buster only increases damage taken by +13% but additional damage is additional damage. Regardless, the reward from spacing with buster is too much to ignore (+40% damage dayum). As long as you're precise and on-point with your spacing, buster is another good option in the match up. Smash art is only good if you're not at percentage for Ness' b-throw to KO. If you are, DO NOT go on Smash art against Ness. You're better off landing a KO with speed or jump art even. I'd love to say shield art is useful for this match up because it is a good answer to Ness' insane b-throw but Ness players can simply camp Shield out or run away from it

Vision

A smart Ness will always be aware of the existence of Shulk's vision but if you ever see a moment where in that Ness player tries to use PKT2 on you, counter it. If they try to recover with PKT2, counter it. You're in smash art against Ness and he's at maybe ~70%? Counter anything as long as you're somewhere near the edge of the stage but don't be predictable with it.

Other notes to add

Outrange Ness with your aerials and u-tilt. That's a big advantage Shulk has over Ness. Ness combos Shulk hard though (thanks to Shulk being combo meat). Both characters have a good number of options against each other. My advice for this match up is to never go full-aggro with Shulk. Just space with the Monado boy. Take advantage of your range instead of actually leaping into Ness' range. I mean, yeah. Shulk's buster art becomes insane once you get in close but space first and learn how to transition from mid-range to close-range. You have moves like n-air or speed art boost pivot grab/dash grab for that. Or cross up n-air or RAR b-air.

How to beat my main (Shulk)

As for Ness mains, Shulk is combo meat so you guys should exploit that. Shulk has (the) worst frame data in the game so get up close to the Monado boy. Getting around his range will be an issue though especially his u-tilt. My advice is to bait Shulk players into committing to the wrong options. Watch out for the surprise pivot f-smashes or pivot f-tilts. Especially if Shulk is in smash or buster art.

I'd say this MU is even. Key word: imo.

 

[erico9001]

From what I remember.....

Art usage

Speed art will always be the best art to use against Ness. It should always be used since you'll need the mobility to keep up or to run away from Ness if he ever gets close to you. Jump art has a similar purpose except you have the chance of landing an early KO on Ness if you manage to land n-air on him (from there, you can either go for u-tilt > f-air > f-air/air slash or just f-air > f-air. percentage dependent). Only problem with jump is that getting combo'd while you're in the art is quite painful, so take advantage of your mobility and jump height to be more evasive. Buster art is a risk here because on one hand, you can play against Ness at mid-range and harass his shield with your high-damaging attacks. On the flip side, messing up your spacing will result to you taking a lot of damage. Not much since buster only increases damage taken by +13% but additional damage is additional damage. Regardless, the reward from spacing with buster is too much to ignore (+40% damage dayum). As long as you're precise and on-point with your spacing, buster is another good option in the match up. Smash art is only good if you're not at percentage for Ness' b-throw to KO. If you are, DO NOT go on Smash art against Ness. You're better off landing a KO with speed or jump art even. I'd love to say shield art is useful for this match up because it is a good answer to Ness' insane b-throw but Ness players can simply camp Shield out or run away from it

Vision

A smart Ness will always be aware of the existence of Shulk's vision but if you ever see a moment where in that Ness player tries to use PKT2 on you, counter it. If they try to recover with PKT2, counter it. You're in smash art against Ness and he's at maybe ~70%? Counter anything as long as you're somewhere near the edge of the stage but don't be predictable with it.

Other notes to add

Outrange Ness with your aerials and u-tilt. That's a big advantage Shulk has over Ness. Ness combos Shulk hard though (thanks to Shulk being combo meat). Both characters have a good number of options against each other. My advice for this match up is to never go full-aggro with Shulk. Just space with the Monado boy. Take advantage of your range instead of actually leaping into Ness' range. I mean, yeah. Shulk's buster art becomes insane once you get in close but space first and learn how to transition from mid-range to close-range. You have moves like n-air or speed art boost pivot grab/dash grab for that. Or cross up n-air or RAR b-air.

How to beat my main (Shulk)

As for Ness mains, Shulk is combo meat so you guys should exploit that. Shulk has (the) worst frame data in the game so get up close to the Monado boy. Getting around his range will be an issue though especially his u-tilt. My advice is to bait Shulk players into committing to the wrong options. Watch out for the surprise pivot f-smashes or pivot f-tilts. Especially if Shulk is in smash or buster art.

I'd say this MU is even. Key word: imo.

patience?

oo, that worked. I tried it out against a Ness player I was playing . I was shifting between defensive and offensive playstyle.

Agreed, Monado Speed is good for this MU. I also agree Jump works here! Buster was kind of meh, and I only used it for MALLC. Shield saved me from some kill throws, but it may have made me more prone to being grabbed...

Thanks for the help!

 

[TheHopefulHero]

I can't even begin to tell you how many times I lost to Ness because of his B-Throw and overall powerful combos.... For a guy who has a predictable recovery and is light, he can kill very early against most of the cast.

Getting back on topic, this is a weird match up. Going aggressive on Ness is a bad idea since one mistake means we're eating a 25%+ combo from a grab or PK Fire spam. If we don't go in, we're dealing with projectiles which makes approaching even harder. You want to space with your attacks and be patient. It's not worth eating heavy damage and possibly losing a stock from rushing in on Ness (or shield grabs, which I've seen most Ness's I've face do). Ness actually has some good keep-away tactics and edge-guarding methods involving PK Thunder, namely due to how fast it is and the control. If you're off-stage or above Ness, watch out for PK Thunder since it's fast and can gimp our recoveries if we're not careful. (The % also adds up so don't think you're safe after eating a bunch of PK Thunders)

In my experience, the only time Shulk has an advantage is if Ness is off-stage. With Jump, we can pursue and potentially stop him from recovering either by an aerial or a Vision if spaced. Ness's aerials are fast though, so watch out if Ness decides to challenge us with aerial as he gets back on stage.

As for Arts, here's what I've got:

Jump: Really good for edge-guarding against Ness, bad for almost everything else. The decreased defense means we take more damage from Ness's already powerful attacks, and we'll be killed sooner from Ness's throws. Jump should mainly be used defensively, with a focus on finding an opening and mobility rather than rushing in with it. A shield grab from Ness means we're eating a lot of %.

Speed: Love it in this match-up. We have a means of going in past Ness's projectiles and getting started with our grabs. Essentially, we can now pressure Ness a lot easier with our increased mobility. The only drawback to this is our decreased damage, but if we're consistent, we'll be racking up the % on Ness very quickly.

Shield: A lifesaver in this match for many reasons. From getting out PK Fire early, to shrugging off PK Thunder II, and especially surviving the B-Throw at crazy %'s, you will learn to cherish Shield after a fight with Ness. Sure, Ness can use projectiles and essentially wait for Shield to run out or use our weakened mobility against us, but sometimes controlling the pace of the match might not be a bad idea.

Buster: Buster's... okay in this set. Breaking shields and dealing heavy damage is always a plus, but taking more damage from already powerful combos isn't. Like with Jump, if you going to use Buster, be careful with it. Trying to poke Ness's shield with aerials might be a bad idea if he's good with Shield grabs. So again: be cautious and time your swings in Buster.

Smash: Easily a momentum changer in this match-up. We can potentially stop Ness much sooner off-stage or on-stage, but we're also risking an early death. I'd recommend using Smash early or if Ness is at high %, giving you a chance to secure a stock while avoiding Throw and PK Fire shenanigans.

In the end, it's also important to keep track of how Ness fights. Some Ness's prefer to go in with aerials and projectiles, while others are going to wait for a grab opportunity. Try to adapt depending on the strategy and use the arts to give you a hand while doing so.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Ness bthrow is ebola

I don't really have much else to say other than that I'm sorry.

Best thing I can say is "don't get grabbed".

 

[Maple42]

Best thing I can say is "don't get grabbed".

Is Ness the new Diddy Kong now

On a more relevant topic, I have been going back and forth about whether Decisive Arts was the most optimal choice; Ness seems to be kinda like a zoner, and while he may not be, it doesn't change the greatness that is 20 seconds of glorious Speed Art. From what I'm gathering from you guys, Shield and Smash don't seem that great in this match-up, so it'd be okay not to be able to switch to them.

Also, if we end up going by Decisive, we'll probably be using Jump to seal the KO; Speed seems to be the go-to Art in most match-ups, but I'd advocate going Jump first, the reason being that you want to be Jump at maybe +90%, and I doubt we can get a Ness to that percent with our initial 20 seconds of Speed. So it'd go like:
Jump > Speed > Jump
instead of
Speed > Buster (scary when facing PK Fire or D-Throw) / Jump > Speed / Smash (*shiver*) > Jump
and therefore getting to kill at 50+ seconds rather than 80+ seconds, or risking going to Smash for 20 seconds

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Is Ness the new Diddy Kong now

Not really because at least you could DI Diddy's throws and not die at 110%

Ness just grabs you and back throws

Fantastic display of skill

 

[Luco]

Not really because at least you could DI Diddy's throws and not die at 110%

Ness just grabs you and back throws

Fantastic display of skill

Kill throws are only for psychics, duh.

How else would we show off our epic skillz? We need to strike fear into our opponents with a mere grab.

 

[Berserker.]

I think I did a fantastic job with the thread title~

I can't really say much about customs vs Ness. All I know is, take power vision and you have something that's at least the equivalent of Ness' b-throw, more or less.

 

[Linkmario00]

Probably Power Vision can be useful if we constrict Ness to use the PKT to recovery. If it's fresh, it's almost a guaranteed KO. Not mentioning Power Vision+Smash (In this case also normal Vision is almost always a KO).

 

[Luco]

Hmm, very fair. But with customs we also gain an impressive edge-guarding tool. I can see Lasting PKT catching even jump shulk out of his comfort zone, and if you're running decisive arts then you might even get caught without jump arts offstage occasionally, though I doubt that would happen more than a few times a match at most.

But still, power vision and decisive arts would be really frustrating to deal with, to say the least. =P

 

[EXCITE!!!!]

Hey guys what do we do with ness's pl fire? Kind of annoying, and I don't want to use customs, because I have a local tournament that doesn't allow them

 

[Maple42]

With Speed and Jump, you can jump over quickly and punish them; it has a fair amount of ending lag, and even if they dodge roll or shield, a pivot grab from the jump could work.

 

[Brendannn]

As a Ness main I actually struggle in this matchup lol. Shulk has more range and has an easy time gimping Ness due to his inconsistent recovery. My advice is to stay in the air a lot and just try to keep him away. And when Ness goes off stage it's a good time to go into Jump monado and try for a gimp. As others have said Ness can combo Shulk really easily so just try to space and not get grabbed or else you'll be taking ~40-50%.

 

[TheBardlyBard]

My real trouble with this matchup, i knoe this sounds awful and im losing to Scrubby Ness's But how do i land against a Ness who keeps juggling with PK Thunder? I hit it and he just makes a new one, keeping a good wall while giving me the juggle, its easlily my worst MI in the game