Ness is the more improved version of Jigglypuff?

[Managomous]

As the title suggests, I feel as though whenever I play against a good Ness, the match is in favor of ness due to the fact that Ness has everything Puff has, but stronger, plus a projectile.

I mean, incredible reach, recovery is really great considering it's a lot easier to hit than in Melee, power (Aka if I get thrown it's a wrap at around 80), combo potential, his n-air beats my n-air.

And Ness has a projectile to boot which can be combo'd into if incorrect DI is applied/ can follow-up into a smash. (Not to mention it takes a **** load of damage).

Now that the rant is over, I have to ask what do you all believe is our benefits over Ness? What can we exploit that seems significant against this character? We have to do something to neutralize this character lol, because right now the only solution I can think of (Which again this applies to pretty much every other character out there), is that we seriously have to be perfect with not only our execution, but our reads (And hope the ness makes a mistake).

Help!

 

[Deleted member]

"Ness is the more improved version of Jigglypuff"



Ahem.

 

[CHOVI]

Ness does have some disadvantages against us. First, his recovery.If we hit the PK thunder, Ness is dead.
Second, we have rest. Ness doesn't have a move that's similar/as good.

 

[Managomous]

Ness does have some disadvantages against us. First, his recovery.If we hit the PK thunder, Ness is dead.
Second, we have rest. Ness doesn't have a move that's similar/as good.

In turn, I feel as though if we miss the PK Thunder, the tables are turned instantly and we get owned by it .

During what situations can we get a rest on Ness? I find that he zones us out easily due to his range.

 

[CHOVI]

In turn, I feel as though if we miss the PK Thunder, the tables are turned instantly and we get owned by it .

During what situations can we get a rest on Ness? I find that he zones us out easily due to his range.

That is true, but realize that we have the advantage here. There aren't many ways in which Ness can recover, but if we see he's gonna hit us, we can airdodge or quickly move away.
You can rest him when he overextends with aerials. Most Ness players tend to feel safe in the air and even get to a point where they start spamming aerials sometimes. Also, when they use PK Fire, I think if you're quick enough you can punish the endlag with a rest (similar to Robin's arcfire)

 

[Managomous]

Hmmmmmm,
I'll have to try the rest option, I can't believe we can rest if they use the PK Fire, but i'll test it out.
And rest with an overextension of aerials? Is that possible? Have you done this successfully or are we theorycrafting? :O Because if you have done this successfully a lot, this is something I must practice lol.

Also, what's the ideal punish when we see he needs to pk thunder back onto the stage? Neutral air? F-air? Everytime I use one or the other, he just has another opportunity to get back on the stage :o

 

[CHOVI]

Hmmmmmm,
I'll have to try the rest option, I can't believe we can rest if they use the PK Fire, but i'll test it out.
And rest with an overextension of aerials? Is that possible? Have you done this successfully or are we theorycrafting? :O Because if you have done this successfully a lot, this is something I must practice lol.

Also, what's the ideal punish when we see he needs to pk thunder back onto the stage? Neutral air? F-air? Everytime I use one or the other, he just has another opportunity to get back on the stage :o

Nah it was just theory... I mean I'd have to test it out but I think you can airdodge into rest if you read an upair.
I'm fairly sure pk fire can be punished with a rest if you're close enough though.
Also I forgot when they use pk thunder, pk flash... but I doubt any good ness will do it more than once.

 

[Ninja Girl]

I think as Jiggs you have to respect Ness' fair and uair quite a bit because of their priority and power, as well as his nair as a punish/combo breaker.

The advantage you have on Ness in the neutral is your aerial mobility. Ness can space aerials with you and his aerials are arguably stronger, but he does not have the same freedom of movement in the air. Usually he will space his aerials in place, retreating, or moving forward, committing to one. As Jigglypuff you have the "in and out" movement that Ness doesn't have where you can drift forward then backwards, backward then forward, etc. You also have multiple jumps to mix up and stall. The key to winning neutral is probably to just outmaneuver him with tricky movement, trying to bait him to whiff attacks so you can punish.

Ness' projectile game shouldn't pose a big problem for Puff, since you can easily short hop over a PK fire and punish it even if he spaces from a distance. He needs to read you to have any chance of landing it and with Jiggs light weight you'll only get trapped in the PK fire in really low percents anyway. His other two projectiles aren't really usable in neutral and very hard to hit Jiggs with at all because of how fast she can move in the air.

When you can get him off stage, like others already said you can gimp him if you force him to use PK Thunder by hitting him early in the animation, or just simply getting hit by the PK thunder so he goes into helpless. As the PK thunder is still coming out of Ness' head you can't do this because it'll just go through you and sometimes even trap you into his PK thunder rocket. You need to time it so you get hit by the PK thunder right when the full projectile is out (the ball and the little tail), then it will disappear when it hits you and he'll be dead. I'd recommend practicing it so you get a feed for when it's safe to go for the gimp and when it isn't.

I don't know anything Ness specific when it comes to rest, but obviously like any match up if you read rolls, edge recoveries, etc. you can get clutch rests.

 

[Managomous]

I think as Jiggs you have to respect Ness' fair and uair quite a bit because of their priority and power, as well as his nair as a punish/combo breaker.


Ness' projectile game shouldn't pose a big problem for Puff, since you can easily short hop over a PK fire and punish it even if he spaces from a distance. He needs to read you to have any chance of landing it and with Jiggs light weight you'll only get trapped in the PK fire in really low percents anyway. His other two projectiles aren't really usable in neutral and very hard to hit Jiggs with at all because of how fast she can move in the air.

When you can get him off stage, like others already said you can gimp him if you force him to use PK Thunder by hitting him early in the animation, or just simply getting hit by the PK thunder so he goes into helpless. As the PK thunder is still coming out of Ness' head you can't do this because it'll just go through you and sometimes even trap you into his PK thunder rocket. You need to time it so you get hit by the PK thunder right when the full projectile is out (the ball and the little tail), then it will disappear when it hits you and he'll be dead. I'd recommend practicing it so you get a feed for when it's safe to go for the gimp and when it isn't.

I don't know anything Ness specific when it comes to rest, but obviously like any match up if you read rolls, edge recoveries, etc. you can get clutch rests.

Great post! So for the PK fire part, I don't think jumping over is the solution. When I first read this I thought "Oh I can probably short hop over the PK fire and then punish", but then I realized that good players usually do a short hop pk-fire with ness as the ending lag is really not that bad. This compensates for the short hop, and I kind of feel like PK fire's hitbox is a bit above the actual move, so it'll hit you a bit off the top of it. And then I thought "Well I can do a full hop and attack", but in order for this to work, you have to be extremely close. In this matchup, I feel as though pretty close can be the death of you considering the power of Ness' throw.

The PK Thunder explanation is interesting. But I still want to know "Hitting him early in the animation" if you hit him can't he PK thunder again? What would be the most optimal attack from a puff perspective? Fair? Nair? I would think b-air but hitting that is extremely hard due to the lag of it.

As for the PK Thunder (Getting hit) part. I suppose I could try that out. Sucks I have to be hit just to get a kill lol. And at higher percentages this doesn't work right? Doesn't his PK thunder somewhat launch Puff due to the knockback?

Tips are awesome!

 

[CHOVI]

Great post! So for the PK fire part, I don't think jumping over is the solution. When I first read this I thought "Oh I can probably short hop over the PK fire and then punish", but then I realized that good players usually do a short hop pk-fire with ness as the ending lag is really not that bad. This compensates for the short hop, and I kind of feel like PK fire's hitbox is a bit above the actual move, so it'll hit you a bit off the top of it. And then I thought "Well I can do a full hop and attack", but in order for this to work, you have to be extremely close. In this matchup, I feel as though pretty close can be the death of you considering the power of Ness' throw.

The PK Thunder explanation is interesting. But I still want to know "Hitting him early in the animation" if you hit him can't he PK thunder again? What would be the most optimal attack from a puff perspective? Fair? Nair? I would think b-air but hitting that is extremely hard due to the lag of it.

As for the PK Thunder (Getting hit) part. I suppose I could try that out. Sucks I have to be hit just to get a kill lol. And at higher percentages this doesn't work right? Doesn't his PK thunder somewhat launch Puff due to the knockback?

Tips are awesome!

Yes, he can PK Thunder again, but the point is to do it until he can't recover.

As for the last question... not really, since PK Thunder has really low KB.

 

[Ninja Girl]

Great post! So for the PK fire part, I don't think jumping over is the solution. When I first read this I thought "Oh I can probably short hop over the PK fire and then punish", but then I realized that good players usually do a short hop pk-fire with ness as the ending lag is really not that bad. This compensates for the short hop, and I kind of feel like PK fire's hitbox is a bit above the actual move, so it'll hit you a bit off the top of it. And then I thought "Well I can do a full hop and attack", but in order for this to work, you have to be extremely close. In this matchup, I feel as though pretty close can be the death of you considering the power of Ness' throw.

The PK Thunder explanation is interesting. But I still want to know "Hitting him early in the animation" if you hit him can't he PK thunder again? What would be the most optimal attack from a puff perspective? Fair? Nair? I would think b-air but hitting that is extremely hard due to the lag of it.

As for the PK Thunder (Getting hit) part. I suppose I could try that out. Sucks I have to be hit just to get a kill lol. And at higher percentages this doesn't work right? Doesn't his PK thunder somewhat launch Puff due to the knockback?

Tips are awesome!

I don't think I've seen too many Ness' use aerial PK fire too often, at least in neutral. If it's giving you trouble, keep in mind that he can only do it when he's a good distance off the ground to get the full range and spacing since it goes at a downwards angle in the air. If he uses it on the way down then it'll either only cover a short distance or just cancel into the landing lag animation. So I'd say respect the PK fire spacing when he's in the air but once he's falling back down you can start to close the distance and only worry about his aerials. If he's just spamming it out too often you should be able to punish it by airdodging through it and getting at least a jab or a grab if not more.

As for the edge guarding his PK thunder recovery, CHOVI said it already. If you make him use his double jump and hit him every time he tries to up B then eventually you'll either get the KO or knock him too far away for his up B to reach the edge anymore. For gimping his up B by getting hit by the PK thunder before he hits himself, I'll gladly trade getting hit by 1 PK thunder for a KO

 

[Pazx]

I actually think this matchup is pretty heavily in Ness's favour due to PKT juggles and his better aerials (sorry guys, it's true) but the characters definitely aren't similar outside of back air and the fact that they both prefer to be in the air. Ness's air mobility and recovery are both pretty terrible especially in comparison to Puff, so do your best to abuse those things.

PK Fire is terrible against Puff, just SDI up and out (spacing dependent) and Ness will never get any followups.

 

[Ninja Girl]

I actually think this matchup is pretty heavily in Ness's favour due to PKT juggles and his better aerials (sorry guys, it's true) but the characters definitely aren't similar outside of back air and the fact that they both prefer to be in the air. Ness's air mobility and recovery are both pretty terrible especially in comparison to Puff, so do your best to abuse those things.

PK Fire is terrible against Puff, just SDI up and out (spacing dependent) and Ness will never get any followups.

Yeah I forgot to mention, at the end of the day Ness wins the match up and is overall the stronger character with more options so it's supposed to be difficult for the Puff. Though I don't think it's the worst match up in the world for Jiggs and obviously any match as Puff is technically winnable if you manage to get rests off.