D e l t a
That one guy who does the thing with a camera.
For the most part, the enemy is in hitstun until they hit the ground. The hitstun on that is ridiculous if you check it out in Debug mode. There's about as much hitstun as Ganon's Dair really.
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Neon's Match-up Discussion
- Thread starter NeonApophis
- Start date
yeah when you put it like that i can see it lol
Kipcom
Smash Journeyman
I don't even care if that's such an awful option to go for. I'm going to do that on a spacie whose DI is bad just to be rude.
omg it works. thank you for testing.
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It may have been discussed before but I don't feel like wading through 160+ replies.
I feel the Lucas/Ness matchup is fairly even, maybe in Lucas' favor slightly.
Approaching against him is fairly easy, that said PK Freeze is a somewhat obvious approach option which he can absorb. Ness players don't usually throughout PK Fire Grounded as an approach and usually as a retreating option with a DJC, making it a bit harder to read. I haven't tried it but I wonder if SDI --> Mag would work to absorb it. Ness is pretty much perfect for combo weight, with Ness' small model it may be slightly harder to Mag.
The neutral against the guy I played was all about spacing and baiting. WD In, Read approach, WD Back (if necessary) --> Punish. Lucas' large WD gives him a large advantage to punish a whiffed PKFire, but you all know his punish game is exceptional.
Recovering against Ness is a little more difficult than I expected. PKT will be abused as Ness can Mag your lightning and put you into the helpless fall. Lucas can do this too, but with a smaller Mag range you have to careful to not get hit by him. I'd say his mag is good against Ness recovering because if you miss the ball of thunder you can pull him back with the mag and get good hits off of him. You can also meteored before you hit yourself with the PKT as you are vulnerable during that period. Mixing up your recovery is key, and using his tether is probably the most efficient method.
TL;DR: With good spacing, you can get easy punishes that can lead to 0-death combos. Mix up your recovery options. Don't spam PKF to use while approaching. Most importantly read your opponent, as you can punish or even heal with mag.
I feel the Lucas/Ness matchup is fairly even, maybe in Lucas' favor slightly.
Approaching against him is fairly easy, that said PK Freeze is a somewhat obvious approach option which he can absorb. Ness players don't usually throughout PK Fire Grounded as an approach and usually as a retreating option with a DJC, making it a bit harder to read. I haven't tried it but I wonder if SDI --> Mag would work to absorb it. Ness is pretty much perfect for combo weight, with Ness' small model it may be slightly harder to Mag.
The neutral against the guy I played was all about spacing and baiting. WD In, Read approach, WD Back (if necessary) --> Punish. Lucas' large WD gives him a large advantage to punish a whiffed PKFire, but you all know his punish game is exceptional.
Recovering against Ness is a little more difficult than I expected. PKT will be abused as Ness can Mag your lightning and put you into the helpless fall. Lucas can do this too, but with a smaller Mag range you have to careful to not get hit by him. I'd say his mag is good against Ness recovering because if you miss the ball of thunder you can pull him back with the mag and get good hits off of him. You can also meteored before you hit yourself with the PKT as you are vulnerable during that period. Mixing up your recovery is key, and using his tether is probably the most efficient method.
TL;DR: With good spacing, you can get easy punishes that can lead to 0-death combos. Mix up your recovery options. Don't spam PKF to use while approaching. Most importantly read your opponent, as you can punish or even heal with mag.
D e l t a
That one guy who does the thing with a camera.
Tetraflora is part of my crew. I play against her Ness enough to know a few things. I'll try to answer some MU details in full by next week
Essentially, just don't drop combos and punish the UpB. It's hard to sweet spot and has decent end lag. Avoid Ness' DJC Fair & grabs. DI dthrow up bc there's almost 0 followups after. DI forward works but you get Fair'd or hit by magnet. DI'ing behind results in Bair.
Essentially, just don't drop combos and punish the UpB. It's hard to sweet spot and has decent end lag. Avoid Ness' DJC Fair & grabs. DI dthrow up bc there's almost 0 followups after. DI forward works but you get Fair'd or hit by magnet. DI'ing behind results in Bair.
X Riptide X
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Mar 24, 2015
- Messages
- 73
I'm thinking Mewtwo has a slight advantage against Lucas, but it's contingent on the stage. His shield is pretty large, so he can stand Lucas' pressure for a bit longer than other characters. Up B gives him room to breath on larger stages like Skyworld and Dreamland. Mewtwo's combo game is best against fast fallers, Lucas being a part of that group. His tail is smaller now, but still a good spacing option, and his recovery is almost as versatile as Lucas'. Both characters have great options to combo each other into oblivion, as well. Mewtwo's powershield range is huge, so a good M2 will nullify PF as an approach option
D e l t a
That one guy who does the thing with a camera.
whatchu need help on?
Kipcom
Smash Journeyman
Oh baby, the Yoshi matchup. 
I probably have some of the most, and best experience with fighting Yoshi as Lucas...but I'm too lazy atm to make an extensive post.
I'll try to get to it soonish, but I'm pretty busy nowadays. @
D e l t a
might be able to give you some insight until I muster the energy to post some about it, since I think he plays against a Yoshi main too. Just know that Yoshi is an extremely unorthodox character. If you go in trying to fight Yoshi like most characters, you're probably going to get bodied, assuming the Yoshi player is good.
I probably have some of the most, and best experience with fighting Yoshi as Lucas...but I'm too lazy atm to make an extensive post.
I'll try to get to it soonish, but I'm pretty busy nowadays. @
D e l t a
might be able to give you some insight until I muster the energy to post some about it, since I think he plays against a Yoshi main too. Just know that Yoshi is an extremely unorthodox character. If you go in trying to fight Yoshi like most characters, you're probably going to get bodied, assuming the Yoshi player is good.
D e l t a
That one guy who does the thing with a camera.
Yeah I play against @Railz all the time. I'll try to update this post throughout the day so be on the lookout. I've got a busy weekend with my Bday & tourney then golfing / celebrating the day after. Either today or next week around Monday I'll be grinding out as much as I can on MUs & updating the guide.Oh baby, the Yoshi matchup.
I probably have some of the most, and best experience with fighting Yoshi as Lucas...but I'm too lazy atm to make an extensive post.
I'll try to get to it soonish, but I'm pretty busy nowadays. @
Feel free to add anything additionally for what I write below...
D e l t a
That one guy who does the thing with a camera.
Introduction
Neutral game is somewhat free for Lucas. I'd say the defining point in the matchup is definitely neutral game.
Yoshi & Lucas have absurd punishes on each other and in theory, could 0-death each other EASILY. Yoshi's combos are a bit easier on Lucas. Despite Yoshi being super easy combo food, his double jump negates many of Lucas' combos due to primarily low hitstun allowing Yoshi to double jump out / DJC Nair.
Ledge guards are about even. If you don't sweetspot or recover smart, his Nair, smash attacks, eggs, and tilts will be devastating. Overall, Yoshi was built as a punish character. His moveset is not the best at approaching, but once you're offstage, it can be hell trying to recover.
Neutral Game
PKF while a seemingly good option all the time, can easily be CC'd and beat by Nair
Ledge Guards
A good Yoshi will make it rain eggs as you try to maneuver back to the stage. Dtilt / Dsmash will punish a bad tether recovery if your head sticks up, eggs can intercept you, and rising Nair will almost always stop the tether altogether.
If you don't sweetspot the ledge, most times an aware Yoshi will send you right back off.
Neutral game is somewhat free for Lucas. I'd say the defining point in the matchup is definitely neutral game.
Yoshi & Lucas have absurd punishes on each other and in theory, could 0-death each other EASILY. Yoshi's combos are a bit easier on Lucas. Despite Yoshi being super easy combo food, his double jump negates many of Lucas' combos due to primarily low hitstun allowing Yoshi to double jump out / DJC Nair.
Ledge guards are about even. If you don't sweetspot or recover smart, his Nair, smash attacks, eggs, and tilts will be devastating. Overall, Yoshi was built as a punish character. His moveset is not the best at approaching, but once you're offstage, it can be hell trying to recover.
Neutral Game
PKF while a seemingly good option all the time, can easily be CC'd and beat by Nair
Ledge Guards
A good Yoshi will make it rain eggs as you try to maneuver back to the stage. Dtilt / Dsmash will punish a bad tether recovery if your head sticks up, eggs can intercept you, and rising Nair will almost always stop the tether altogether.
If you don't sweetspot the ledge, most times an aware Yoshi will send you right back off.
Lukingordex
No Custom Titles Allowed
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- 3,056
- Switch FC
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Can anyone give me some help on the Sheik, Charizard and Fox match ups?
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D e l t a
That one guy who does the thing with a camera.
As with most matchups, don't get grabbed. In these MUs especially, you can get set up for tech chase situations very easily.
==
Sheik:
Sheik's grab game speaks for itself. Her needles & tilts can stop poor approaches, so play it safe & be smart when attacking.
She can't approach well; therefore, securing a lead against Sheik will play heavily in your favor if you can hold the advantage. She's easy to combo, resembling that of Lucas, a slower falling Fox, Charizard, etc. Ledge guard = bait out needles & double jump aerials, then grab ledge and punish the special fall end lag.
Her OoS game isn't amazing, especially if you cross her up on shield (Bair / Nair have bad hitboxes behind her & Dair is slow). Be cautious of needles & ledge hop aerials when recovering. She can decimate Lucas once he gets offstage. Pressure on sheik is mostly easy comparable to other cast members.
Be smart & safe similar to fighting Marth and you will win this MU.
==
Charizard:
Charizard is combo food. He should take at least 50-80% from a hit, if not being 0-deathd. The massive hurtbox is unfavorable to him and most of your attacks should not whiff. Hard pressure and not dropping combos will mostly win the MU.
His flame thrower & Nair are the biggest moves to watch out for. Dsmash, Upsmash, Ftilt, Dtilt, and Jab are the other tools that Zard will use to space out and wrack on damage. They're somewhat laggy and can be punished really easy. Avoid being in range of Charizard while he's trying to land or out of hitstun. Fight Zard horiztonally and bait out his moves then punish.
This MU is really easy if your combo & bait game is on point
==
Fox:
More on Fox later. I'm still working on mastering this MU. If the Fox player is amazing, this MU can be tricky. If your skill difference resembles M2K's Fox vs Neon's Lucas at LTC2, then Lucas will win. Combo game on Fox & ledge guards, while not free, he has tons of option coverage and has all the tools to combat Fox when played correctly.
Avoid pre-emptive jumps and bait Fox into the air. This applies to ledge recoveries as well. One shine spike on your double jump and you'll die 9/10 times. Always try to tether ledge FIRST if you are in range. If you get hit out of tether, you'll retain your double jump and UpB's. Double jumping first sets up a ledge guard opportunity. If you're forced to use UpB, most times you will end up getting gimped / ledge guarded.
Don't fight him airborne, this should all be done either by using anti-air moves (dash attack, Utilt, Ftilt, Fsmash) or trapping landings and THEN going in with PKF, Fair, Nair, or Dair. His Nair (and most Nairs in the game) will always beat PKF.
***Dash attack, while you should not use this as a crutch, is one of my favorite moves in the Lucas v Spacies MU. This move sets up for BRUTAL combos, such as all your smash attacks after 50-70%, all tilts at most %'s, grab, and all aerials. Go into debug mode and look at this massive hitstun that spacies are in from this move. You have lots of time to confirm off of one dash attack. play around with your combos.
At 0-20%, go for magnet -> Bair / Nair combos. It will easily grant you a quick 13-20% and start to chip away from their crouch cancel.
Avoid Fox players mindlessly Nair / shining & recklessly upsmashing you and absorb / dodge as many lasers as possible. Upthrow - Uair is easily SDI'd and Uthrow -> Bair won't kill until over 110% with good DI. The highest I believe Lucas dies from this setup, is around 130%.
Kipcom
Smash Journeyman
I'm still too lazy to make a post about it omg.
So I'll just post some vids of me fighting Yoshi instead
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4aS6g41eXpI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=asRZK1MrnD4
Something left out of Delta's post was that Yoshi actually has chaingrabs on lucas with down throw. If you DI away, Yoshi can dash grab to get a regrab, and if you DI away and end up off stage, Yoshi can dtilt you or down smash before your hitstun ends....Soooo yeah. If you DI behind Yoshi, he can pivot grab to regrab, and if you're a high percents, you're likely to get nair'd or uair'd, both of which will more than likely kill. Though honestly I'd rather be in the latter scenario. Yoshi can kill lucas at the edge of the stage super early if you DI that down throw off stage.
Yoshi also has good shield pressure against Lucas (and vice versa). DJC Nair spam on shield has enough shield stun to keep Lucas in shield without being able to do much of anything other than rolling. Lucas has some rather poor options out of shield against pressure, though maybe a PK Burst OoS might beat Yoshi's shield pressure. Lucas pressure on Yoshi used to be practically inescapable, but I think the nerfs to his overall shield pressure gives Yoshi enough leniency to retaliate with an armored aerial.
Yoshi also really likes crouch cancelling. Use lots of dairs.
edit: wait I just made a big post about it. Silly me.
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D e l t a
That one guy who does the thing with a camera.
Yeah I don't really know about the Yoshi CGs much 1. Because my training partner never does it (he usually dash attack sif I DI away or chains 4 up smash/utilt/uairs if I don't DI) 2. I've never seen it before. Useful to note for the future. I always thought it could be possible, now I know.
DJC Nair on shield isn't foolproof. Nair/Fair/Dair OoS depending on their spacing and reaction to OoS options can be good. Try WD OoS instead of rolling so that you stay mobile and leave little room to be punished. I think grab might be too slow to work, but Dair is usually a good option that works out for me.
Beating Yoshi's CC is mainly just crossing up Yoshi and doing safe Nair->dtilt and Dairs. Or grab. Grab always beats crouch cancel
Yoshi is like Bowser & Luigi combined. He gets combo'd to death, but can kill you with a few hit confirms. Likewise, he can escape combos with Nair if you give him any opportunities at all to double jump out.
Armor is so underrated as PM yoshi. Especially when he can do rising armored Nairs instead of always falling like in Melee.
DJC Nair on shield isn't foolproof. Nair/Fair/Dair OoS depending on their spacing and reaction to OoS options can be good. Try WD OoS instead of rolling so that you stay mobile and leave little room to be punished. I think grab might be too slow to work, but Dair is usually a good option that works out for me.
Beating Yoshi's CC is mainly just crossing up Yoshi and doing safe Nair->dtilt and Dairs. Or grab. Grab always beats crouch cancel
Yoshi is like Bowser & Luigi combined. He gets combo'd to death, but can kill you with a few hit confirms. Likewise, he can escape combos with Nair if you give him any opportunities at all to double jump out.
Armor is so underrated as PM yoshi. Especially when he can do rising armored Nairs instead of always falling like in Melee.
Kipcom
Smash Journeyman
I've tried OoS aerials on Yoshi before, and when it comes to Yoshi's DJC pressure, it's very hard to actually get the hit before the armored nair comes out. If the Yoshi is on point, Lucas's OoS options are cut short.
I also don't really like the idea of wavedashing out of shield against Yoshi if he's going for pressure. If I wavedash towards him, he's going to have time to punish, if I wavedash away, that could set me up to get down smashed during the wavedash process, along with having awful DI from trying to. I really only buffer rolls when I feel like it's absolutely necessary.
But yeah, any type of good pressure on shield, I don't even bother trying to grab as Lucas. Not with Mr. Frame 11 grab.
Well spaced aerials or quick rushdown pressure on Lucas's shield really screws him over.
I havent played around with OU Burst OoS since 3.02 was still around, tbh.They removed that invincible frame on it and made the hitbox smaller, but they also made it a frame 2 attack...I'll have to test it out and experiment with it next time I get to play someone. I know for a fact it won't save us from Spacie shield pressure (didn't even do so in 3.0), but possibly against most of the cast it can still be a good OoS option. No one ever uses it anymore...same with up tilt.
I also don't really like the idea of wavedashing out of shield against Yoshi if he's going for pressure. If I wavedash towards him, he's going to have time to punish, if I wavedash away, that could set me up to get down smashed during the wavedash process, along with having awful DI from trying to. I really only buffer rolls when I feel like it's absolutely necessary.
But yeah, any type of good pressure on shield, I don't even bother trying to grab as Lucas. Not with Mr. Frame 11 grab.
Well spaced aerials or quick rushdown pressure on Lucas's shield really screws him over.
I havent played around with OU Burst OoS since 3.02 was still around, tbh.They removed that invincible frame on it and made the hitbox smaller, but they also made it a frame 2 attack...I'll have to test it out and experiment with it next time I get to play someone. I know for a fact it won't save us from Spacie shield pressure (didn't even do so in 3.0), but possibly against most of the cast it can still be a good OoS option. No one ever uses it anymore...same with up tilt.
X Riptide X
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Mar 24, 2015
- Messages
- 73
Does anyone have some info on the Lucas vs Mewtwo matchup? I was planning to analyze the M2K vs Neon match, but Gimr took it down.
Other than the info I have here, I can't think of much.
D e l t a
That one guy who does the thing with a camera.
YouTube search it again. It's there. One of the other Lucas players in these boards re-uploaded it
Just gotta be confident with your timings and precisely WD back the instant you know that Nair's shield stun is done. Most people mess up shield pressure the 2nd or 3rd time they try to do something. Even Hax & Mango are guilty of this. Everyone can Nair/Dair shine once, but doing it 2 or 3 times in a row is where they fall short.
I'll agree with this to an extent. I don't always shield grab (bad habit I got rid of a while ago), but if I'm confident I can get a grab, I will. As for quick / well spaced aerials, Lucas' mobility is amazing. Unless you trap yourself in shield or don't move around, Lucas has all the tools needed to escape.I don't even bother trying to grab as Lucas. Not with Mr. Frame 11 grab.
Well spaced aerials or quick rushdown pressure on Lucas's shield really screws him over.
i haven't used much OU burst OoS, primarily because I've never been in a situation where I've been shield pressured AND had a burst charge. It's nice in combos / finishers. It could be used against spacies granted the 4 frame jump squat and 2 frame move. Spacie's pressure isn't 100% safe, just really good. Think of it like a shine OoS
I feel proud to say that I use Lucas' utilt in a number of good situations. It's a decent anti-air and great combo starter. The sweetspot / hits run does better than SH Uair, since chars like Yoshi, FE (especially Marth), Luigi, etc can all escape your combo due to low hitstun from Uair. Conversely, Utilt has about twice the hitstun and similar knockback. At low % (0-20%) from no DI on dthrow, Utilt is the most optimal follow-up IMO. It sets up for another Utilt or any aerial attack.
D e l t a
That one guy who does the thing with a camera.
Mew2 v Lucas despite my friend beating me in the MU, I feel is 55-45.
The MU is pretty straightforward. Avoid random UpB approaches from Mew2, don't be scared by his Nair/hover approaches, and space out / punish Mew2's moves. Mew2's Bair is about the only troublesome thing to worry about due to large hotbox size & being really safe. Lucas can pressure & combo Mew2 to death and has an easy time avoiding Mew2's attacks overall.
General stuff on Mew2's side
Shadowball is extremely slow & can be predicted / baited and healed off for a free 5-25% PKF will clank with Shadowball until it's charged more than halfway. Fully charged, SBall will always out-prioritize and continue going thru PKF.
Shadow claw on the other hand is very deadly and gets kills around 100-130%. It combos into itself and is hard to DI properly due to sending Lucas mostly straight up. If Fair doesn't get Lucas, 20 Uairs or a dozen Bairs all combining into each other will eventually kill.
Both Uthrows kill easily on each other. Lucas dies around the same % Mew2 does from the other's Uthrow.
Tilts can cancel each other and a non-spaced out CC Dtilt battle will be won by Lucas. Spaced out tilts are in Lucas' favor.
Mew2's Nair is slightly better and leads into grab. Be wary of this and use buffered spot dodge to avoid the setup. Also avoid getting pressured by DJC / float cancelled Fairs / Uairs on shield. NEVER get stuck above Mew2, ESPECIALLY when on a platform.
General stuff on Lucas' side
Lucas pressure works really well on Mew2. Due to a very large hurt box and shield, either shield stabs or low shields will happen as a result. With an aware mind, you can cover all of Mew2's options. Scout the roll away with PKF and either force them to shield the PKF then resume pressure -OR- they can get hit by PKF and you get a free hit-confirm. If they roll behind, this is easy to cover: Nair / Fair / Magnet pressure again. Spot dodge / grab OoS can be hit out of so long as your pressure is good. Only UpB OoS seems to do the best against avoiding Lucas pressure safely.
Combos are interesting. Mew2 is essentially a slightly floater Samus. It's easy to hit M2 and beat out his CC. Fair into Fair or Uair into Uair strings are somewhat easier and securing kills isn't too hard.
The MU is pretty straightforward. Avoid random UpB approaches from Mew2, don't be scared by his Nair/hover approaches, and space out / punish Mew2's moves. Mew2's Bair is about the only troublesome thing to worry about due to large hotbox size & being really safe. Lucas can pressure & combo Mew2 to death and has an easy time avoiding Mew2's attacks overall.
General stuff on Mew2's side
Shadowball is extremely slow & can be predicted / baited and healed off for a free 5-25% PKF will clank with Shadowball until it's charged more than halfway. Fully charged, SBall will always out-prioritize and continue going thru PKF.
Shadow claw on the other hand is very deadly and gets kills around 100-130%. It combos into itself and is hard to DI properly due to sending Lucas mostly straight up. If Fair doesn't get Lucas, 20 Uairs or a dozen Bairs all combining into each other will eventually kill.
Both Uthrows kill easily on each other. Lucas dies around the same % Mew2 does from the other's Uthrow.
Tilts can cancel each other and a non-spaced out CC Dtilt battle will be won by Lucas. Spaced out tilts are in Lucas' favor.
Mew2's Nair is slightly better and leads into grab. Be wary of this and use buffered spot dodge to avoid the setup. Also avoid getting pressured by DJC / float cancelled Fairs / Uairs on shield. NEVER get stuck above Mew2, ESPECIALLY when on a platform.
General stuff on Lucas' side
Lucas pressure works really well on Mew2. Due to a very large hurt box and shield, either shield stabs or low shields will happen as a result. With an aware mind, you can cover all of Mew2's options. Scout the roll away with PKF and either force them to shield the PKF then resume pressure -OR- they can get hit by PKF and you get a free hit-confirm. If they roll behind, this is easy to cover: Nair / Fair / Magnet pressure again. Spot dodge / grab OoS can be hit out of so long as your pressure is good. Only UpB OoS seems to do the best against avoiding Lucas pressure safely.
Combos are interesting. Mew2 is essentially a slightly floater Samus. It's easy to hit M2 and beat out his CC. Fair into Fair or Uair into Uair strings are somewhat easier and securing kills isn't too hard.
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D e l t a
That one guy who does the thing with a camera.
Vid of me getting mostly bopped by Tetraflora's training partner, RevolverDog aka RevyDog aka Revy. First time actually sitting down and playing him despite knowing Revy for almost a year now. Also the first time I've gotten to practice against Mewtwo outside of a few quick tourney matches.
Kipcom
Smash Journeyman
I highly doubt going to beat out Fox's pressure, or at least it shouldn't. Falco and Wolf? Possibly, but Fox has a frame 3 jumpsquat and a frame 1 shine. Compared to Melee, Spacie pressure is also much more lenient. It's pretty easy for me to mess up in Melee, but once you have the technical skill in that game, it feels 2x as easy in PM. There's also things like double shine and shine grab, which in the case for all spacies, would most likely beat out an OoS OU Burst.
Maybe if someone could test it out in debug mode to get a frame perfect scenario going. Like I said, I doubt burst works on spacies OoS, but if on the off chance that it actually does, then it's probably something that requires perfect timing/reaction.
D e l t a
That one guy who does the thing with a camera.
It's also rare to be in these situations AND have an OU burst. Maybe I'll play around with this next week... I'll let you guys know if I find anything important on this. Atm it's all theory craft and rough estimations at that
Kipcom
Smash Journeyman
Also, I think it's time for me to take Lucas to the lab again when I have some free time.
I've been practicing a loooot of Melee recently, and it's showing, but there's some underutilized things that Lucas has that I think I'm going to break into the character.
I've been practicing a loooot of Melee recently, and it's showing, but there's some underutilized things that Lucas has that I think I'm going to break into the character.
D e l t a
That one guy who does the thing with a camera.
Ganon DownB camping.....what do?
I try max range PKF
I try max range PKF
Shielded or dashed away from
I try dashing in and shielding to baitGets SideB'd / grabbed / doesn't fall for bait
I try dashing in / out of its range to baitBait doesn't seem to be good enough :/
So far LRAStart Fox has given me good results....
D e l t a
That one guy who does the thing with a camera.
Sits under platform crouching, spaces out from PKF range. If Lucas gets too close, they use DownB. If they're too far away, Ganon waits patiently. The damage of 4-5 PKF = 1 Ganon DownB.
I got maybe 1-2 baits out of the 10 times I was hit by this move. Best attempts were made to stay constantly pressuring Ganon, but when we reset to neutral, I got ****ed over.
I'd like to stay Lucas main as much as possible and work out these MUs. Mainly because my Ivy feels super fraudulent, Snake still needs work on, and Sheik is lame. Falco is a possibility for this MU as well.
I got maybe 1-2 baits out of the 10 times I was hit by this move. Best attempts were made to stay constantly pressuring Ganon, but when we reset to neutral, I got ****ed over.
I'd like to stay Lucas main as much as possible and work out these MUs. Mainly because my Ivy feels super fraudulent, Snake still needs work on, and Sheik is lame. Falco is a possibility for this MU as well.
Xcite
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Aug 15, 2013
- Messages
- 131
Maybe try going for more magnet approaches/baits? You got stuff like b-reverse magnet and depending on how the situation went, you can opt for a PKF, Bair (if they fell for the bait) or another magnet (if they're too close to safely use PKF). Just general stuff Lucas should be doing in neutral should be enough. But I do agree with you that Gannon's down B (and himself as a character) makes it pretty annoying to throw out PKF. All his moves basically beat it out.
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NeonApophis
Smash Apprentice
Ganon's down b is not very fast. Just bait it out, shield or dodge it, and then punish him. You don't really have to approach him. If you're technically consistent you can just do perfect extended DJC pkf from outside his range. But even short range pkf can be sufficient since if he ever goes for a down b and doesn't hit you he should get punished, and even if you get hit you'll often end up outside of his follow-up range. Lucas just punishes harder and is fast enough to easily win the neutral by avoiding Ganon's slow moves.
Ya Boy GP
Smash Apprentice
So, most of you probably don't know me but I'll be playing Lucas a lot since I enjoy playing this game again.
As of right now, here's my 3.5 matchup chart for Lucas.
The * means that there's little documentation or video evidence of the matchup, so my placing is mostly off of theorycrafting.
(+3) 65/35
(+2) 60/40 
(+1) 55/45 * * * * * * *
(0) 50/50 * * *
(-1) 45/55
(-2) 40/60
(-3) 35/65
No idea where to put, literally 0 documentation or high level video play of this matchup, and I can't really theorycraft much of it because Pikachu's so weird and unexplored.
I still think Lucas is broken. Top 10 in my opinion, but I'm pretty crazy.
As of right now, here's my 3.5 matchup chart for Lucas.
The * means that there's little documentation or video evidence of the matchup, so my placing is mostly off of theorycrafting.
(+3) 65/35
(+2) 60/40
(+1) 55/45
* * * * * * * (0) 50/50
* * *(-1) 45/55
(-2) 40/60
(-3) 35/65
No idea where to put
, literally 0 documentation or high level video play of this matchup, and I can't really theorycraft much of it because Pikachu's so weird and unexplored.I still think Lucas is broken. Top 10 in my opinion, but I'm pretty crazy.
D e l t a
That one guy who does the thing with a camera.
Here's my opinion on the MU list. Note: I've played against most of these characters or seen the MU played enough to give my educated opinion.
I only placed his +3 MUs where they are not because "oh they're the worst characters in PM," but simply because Lucas holds great advantages over the 3 listed there. Jiggs, Peach, and Oli die around 60-90% most stocks whereas Lucas won't die until at least 100% or higher. They don't have many solid options to counter Lucas in neutral and lack proper punishes on Lucas' tiny gaps in his pressure.
(+3) 65/35 *
(+2) 60/40 *
(+1) 55/45 * *
(0) 50/50
(-1) 45/55 *
(-2) 40/60
(-3) 35/65
Side notes (I'll update this tomorrow):
I only placed his +3 MUs where they are not because "oh they're the worst characters in PM," but simply because Lucas holds great advantages over the 3 listed there. Jiggs, Peach, and Oli die around 60-90% most stocks whereas Lucas won't die until at least 100% or higher. They don't have many solid options to counter Lucas in neutral and lack proper punishes on Lucas' tiny gaps in his pressure.
(+3) 65/35
* (+2) 60/40
*(+1) 55/45
* * (0) 50/50
(-1) 45/55
* (-2) 40/60
(-3) 35/65
He's still really good, but not broken (I never thought he was in 3.02 either). If we were at least another year or two into his meta-game, we'd start to see even more dominating aspects of Lucas come into play. I'd say he's upper mid-tier, not exactly sure where he would truly lie on a tier list. He realistically can combo everybody to death, and TAS play with Lucas looks even more broken. The only thing he truly lacks is a high priority aerial with a long lasting hitbox and given the 3.0 Fair range back. tl;dr If Lucas had Fox's Nair, he'd be around top 5 IMO.
Side notes (I'll update this tomorrow):
IC's & Oli - While these MU's have not been explored fully (PM lacks top players for a number of characters), I've dealt with Melee & Brawl IC's and mained / fought many Brawl Oli's.
IC's: With the removal of guaranteed infinites, this MU is way easier. Electric hits shield stab very easy and most times will be able to hit Nana. On occasion, PKF will hit both IC's. Lucas can punish Nana extremely hard when she gets separated: powerful smash attacks, easy combos with 0 CPU DI & won't tech Dairs, allowing easy conversions for fast damage / quick kills.
Oli: Pikmin get hit by Nair and have little effect on Lucas. PKF goes even against all pikmin, especially purple, which is his best. Bad roll & OoS options = Lucas able to pressure Oli for free. Tether grab & 0 grab armor means he doesn't have to worry about grabs.
Peach: See above. Can't CC Dsmash against competent Lucas'. Peach's range OoS is too tiny to punish safe shield pressure and turnips will go even with Fair / PKF. Lucas can punish turnip pulls very well.
Sonic: Somewhat unexplored, but Nair & PKF stop most of his approaches. Everything else is pretty straightforward and rely on reading movement. Lightweight = fast kills. Vertically linear recovery that can't sweetspot = charge downsmash at ledge & use both hits to guarantee a hit. Other special recoveries have a predictable angle.
Diddy: Not many Diddy players in 3.5, similar to Lucas, but without a banana, Diddy can still put in work against Lucas. With a banana, he has the advantage over Lucas in neutral. If Lucas uses PKF and hits banana, diddy can regrab / punish the PKF end lag. If he uses Fair, there's the hitlag & end lag of his aerial, which Diddy can punish with a quick grab or smash attack. Even or Diddy's favor depending on item play.
ROB: Substitute ROB for Diddy and gyro for banana. Lasers & boost aerials do well at punishing Lucas and the extra weight + being a floaty = less free kills from Dair and relying more on grabs, which is harder to grab ROB being more aerial based.
Kirby/Ness: I've played Tetraflora countless times and I can say that Lucas confidently beats Kirby. Against Ness, it's either even or Ness' favor due to a high punish game on both sides and more guarantees.
Pikachu: I've played Jampion and Anther a few times. Both of them incredibly proficient at the MU, SDI'ing all of Lucas' multi-hit moves and great DI on the rest of his attacks. Despite this, Pika gets combo'd very easily by Lucas and dies at low % being a floaty. The average % I kill Pika at is around 100 (lowest of around 75 from OU Upsmash and highest of 130-136 from upthrow). Thunderbolts get absorbed by magnet / go even with PKF / outright beat by Lucas' Fair. Only hard part of the MU is being CG'd to roughly 35-50% and getting killed by Pika's upsmash around 70-85%. Everything else is in favor of Lucas.
IC's: With the removal of guaranteed infinites, this MU is way easier. Electric hits shield stab very easy and most times will be able to hit Nana. On occasion, PKF will hit both IC's. Lucas can punish Nana extremely hard when she gets separated: powerful smash attacks, easy combos with 0 CPU DI & won't tech Dairs, allowing easy conversions for fast damage / quick kills.
Oli: Pikmin get hit by Nair and have little effect on Lucas. PKF goes even against all pikmin, especially purple, which is his best. Bad roll & OoS options = Lucas able to pressure Oli for free. Tether grab & 0 grab armor means he doesn't have to worry about grabs.
Peach: See above. Can't CC Dsmash against competent Lucas'. Peach's range OoS is too tiny to punish safe shield pressure and turnips will go even with Fair / PKF. Lucas can punish turnip pulls very well.
Sonic: Somewhat unexplored, but Nair & PKF stop most of his approaches. Everything else is pretty straightforward and rely on reading movement. Lightweight = fast kills. Vertically linear recovery that can't sweetspot = charge downsmash at ledge & use both hits to guarantee a hit. Other special recoveries have a predictable angle.
Diddy: Not many Diddy players in 3.5, similar to Lucas, but without a banana, Diddy can still put in work against Lucas. With a banana, he has the advantage over Lucas in neutral. If Lucas uses PKF and hits banana, diddy can regrab / punish the PKF end lag. If he uses Fair, there's the hitlag & end lag of his aerial, which Diddy can punish with a quick grab or smash attack. Even or Diddy's favor depending on item play.
ROB: Substitute ROB for Diddy and gyro for banana. Lasers & boost aerials do well at punishing Lucas and the extra weight + being a floaty = less free kills from Dair and relying more on grabs, which is harder to grab ROB being more aerial based.
Kirby/Ness: I've played Tetraflora countless times and I can say that Lucas confidently beats Kirby. Against Ness, it's either even or Ness' favor due to a high punish game on both sides and more guarantees.
Pikachu: I've played Jampion and Anther a few times. Both of them incredibly proficient at the MU, SDI'ing all of Lucas' multi-hit moves and great DI on the rest of his attacks. Despite this, Pika gets combo'd very easily by Lucas and dies at low % being a floaty. The average % I kill Pika at is around 100 (lowest of around 75 from OU Upsmash and highest of 130-136 from upthrow). Thunderbolts get absorbed by magnet / go even with PKF / outright beat by Lucas' Fair. Only hard part of the MU is being CG'd to roughly 35-50% and getting killed by Pika's upsmash around 70-85%. Everything else is in favor of Lucas.
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Dotcom
Smash Lord
Why 65/35 for Olimar?