Need some advice against Marth - Videos

[Binx]

List of my recorded matches

Binx(ICs) vs Cmin(Marth) - Yoshi Story
Binx(ICs) vs Cmin(Marth) - Yoshi Story 2

I have no idea what do once I am cornered, I have no clue how I am supposed to combo Marth. Ive been playing ICs for about 2 weeks so I am not too familiar with them, if you have any gameplay advice that isnt specifically related to Marth matchups I would also love to hear it. Thanks alot guys.

 

[Speedsk8er]

LOL, Cmin, I finally got it after a while.

Dthrow dair doesn't work on Marth. I'd suggest desynch combos from a grab if you're good at them and just Throw+Smash if you're not.

Platform stages + marth = NOT GOOD.

I'm not as good at this game as you(your marth proves that) but I'd suggest alot of WD into sheild and out of it to punish lag. If you shield his forward smash, you may be able to pull off an UpB out of shield desynch(nana blizzard) to get a grab. I'd also say mix up your approach alot.

Hell, i dunno what to suggest. That Marth knew what the hell he was doing. He only got grabbed twice throughout the entire match.

Just wait for the good people to get here. They know what they're talking about.

 

[Binx]

Thank you, I am thinking about desynching a popo iceblock into a nana wavedash towards iceblock into a popo wavedash towards grab, I will have to wait until I play him again to figure out if it will work, but hopefully it will, I also just learned the short hop fastfall desynch so hopefully I will be able to incorporate that a little bit.

Minh is really hard to grab, he crouch cancles my jabs so im not sure what to do, I think if they crouch cancle jabs you can forward tilt instead for the results a grab would normally give, not sure on this. I am just not experienced enough with ICs to know how to come up with counters on the fly I'm not used to that. Also thanks for the Marth compliment.

 

[Speedsk8er]

LOL, I tend to play pretty wreckless in this match-up and toss nana around alot to get the grab.

Of course, the marth I play isn't as good as you guys. I also usually play FD against a MArth but I dunno if that's any good. I just feel my approach options aren't so crippled. As far as stages are concerned, I'd choose either FD or DL. Also, I dunno if Waveblocks would be the best choice since Marth could easily swipe them away. I'd suggest dashdance to nanablizzard outside of his reach. Be spontaneous and crazy.

Also, question for anyone able to answer it. Would any of IC's moves be able to clank with Marth forward smash? I'm thinking that only their Utilt would be able to but I may be wrong. I'm thinking of something crazy but I wanna know if it would work first.

 

[Genuine]

LOL, Cmin, I finally got it after a while.

Dthrow dair doesn't work on Marth. I'd suggest desynch combos from a grab if you're good at them and just Throw+Smash if you're not.

Platform stages + marth = NOT GOOD.

I'm not as good at this game as you(your marth proves that) but I'd suggest alot of WD into sheild and out of it to punish lag. If you shield his forward smash, you may be able to pull off an UpB out of shield desynch(nana blizzard) to get a grab. I'd also say mix up your approach alot.

Hell, i dunno what to suggest. That Marth knew what the hell he was doing. He only got grabbed twice throughout the entire match.

Just wait for the good people to get here. They know what they're talking about.

Ur Dthrow dair does work on Marth I can do it to my friends and If you need anyomre proof
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Z5fSRyCs-yc
1:32-1:45

 

[Speedsk8er]

Ur Dthrow dair does work on Marth I can do it to my friends and If you need anyomre proof
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Z5fSRyCs-yc
1:32-1:45

Also, notice at 2:54 where Ken Smash DIed out of it? It won't work on Marth. They can DI out.

 

[Lixivium]

For a current list of my uploaded matches

here are links to specifically my Marth Matchups

Binx(ICs) vs Cmin(Marth) - Final Destination
Binx(ICs) vs Cmin(Marth) - Yoshi Story

I have no idea what do once I am cornered, I have no clue how I am supposed to combo Marth. Ive been playing ICs for about 2 weeks so I am not too familiar with them, if you have any gameplay advice that isnt specifically related to Marth matchups I would also love to hear it. Thanks alot guys.

Your D-throw -> D-air chaingrab is inconsistent; the timing is too early and you're not shorthopping with Nana. Yes, Marth can DI out of it even if done perfectly, but you're not doing it correctly so that's a moot point. Just Up-smash him out of throws and go for some Up-airs.

You missed quite a few opportunities to wavedash out of shield into a (jab ->) grab or a D-smash. Any time a Marth F-smashes your shield without tipping it he should regret it.

I know you don't have much choice on Yoshi's Story, but you shouldn't ever drop on Marth from above. Go around him and approach from the sides.

Bad decision making around the edges made this match a lot more one-sided than it probably should have been.

 

[Binx]

I know, I dont really understand my options yet, I am used to playing as marth where I have more range than anyone and dont have to worry about getting inside. Everytime I wavedash out of my shield he seems to have enough time to spot dodge or crouch cancle my jab/grab/smash, maybe I am not wavedashing at my earliest possible frame or something, not sure.

Speed I am pretty sure your clank idea is the same idea I had where you would have nana wavedash in with a smash and you could basically be gauranteed a free hit with either nana or after the clank from her and Marth, I doubt it works or I would have seen it by now, as far as the dash dance blizzard it doesnt work on him usually, if he is close at all he hits me out of it and if he isnt close he doesnt run into the blizzard. It does work very well on my other friends Marth though and I do abuse it there frequently, better players wont fall for it.

As far as my grabs yeah I am not used to doing so many quick little movements on the controller yet, I am getting more consistent as time goes on and I am pretty confident I will be able to do my chain throws pretty accurately in a week or two. I was doing dthrow uair like a week ago and I dont really know why I stopped using it, thanks for reminding me.

As for my decision making near the edge what do you mean? the forward B recoveries or when I was getting up? or some other bad decision.

EDIT: I watched the videos again and I see what you mean about not dropping on top of him, yeah I cant believe I even kept trying ti after the first time or two.

 

[Lixivium]

Speed I am pretty sure your clank idea is the same idea I had where you would have nana wavedash in with a smash and you could basically be gauranteed a free hit with either nana or after the clank from her and Marth, I doubt it works or I would have seen it by now, as far as the dash dance blizzard it doesnt work on him usually, if he is close at all he hits me out of it and if he isnt close he doesnt run into the blizzard. It does work very well on my other friends Marth though and I do abuse it there frequently, better players wont fall for it.

Clanks work well for some characters (Luigi) but I wouldn't rely on them for the IC's. I've had attacks clank TWICE and still hit me; it is infuriating.

As for my decision making near the edge what do you mean? the forward B recoveries or when I was getting up? or some other bad decision.

2nd death: should have airdodged
3rd death: misjudged height of recovery
4th death: hung on ledge too long

BTW your first link is mislabelled; it's actually a Marth ditto.

 

[Binx]

Thanks the link is fixed now dont know why I did that, 2nd death I think I would have gotten fsmashed anyways, 3rd death I shouldnt have attacked and I should have airdodged instead of f-b, 4th death I didnt hit l fast enough or hard enough not sure which, I did try though.

Second match I was rolling like a newb, it was one of my worst games of the day, I dont play like that against any other character or on any other levels, alot of them I was expecting Fsmashes so just bad prediction on my part. Still better than the other one though haha. Yeah... dthrow usmash need to stop doing all this random stuff.

Also I win a lot more matches against him than these videos suggest I just uploaded the ones I lost because I have more to learn from those than the ones I won.

 

[Speedsk8er]

Speed I am pretty sure your clank idea is the same idea I had where you would have nana wavedash in with a smash and you could basically be gauranteed a free hit with either nana or after the clank from her and Marth

I was actually moreso referring to if you miss a grab on a marth, he'll more than likely try to Fsmash you. If you could pull it off in time, you could get Nana to whiffed grab desynch to Utilt to clank with his Fsmash in order to land the grab on the Marth. I think the utilt has too much lag though.

 

[curly]

i think you need to wd into grabs more. if he trys to swing at ya when your wd in shield, then grab.. i dont know thats what i do against marths lol

 

[Wobbles]

Chu's favorite low percent combo on Marth seems to be d-throw f-smash, WD into f-smash. I personally prefer d-throw reverse d-air up-tilt, or d-throw reverse d-air up-smash. If they're at a mid percent, I reverse d-air and then f-smash the opposite way to send 'em off the level and confuse DI; it gets me a lot of good edgeguarding setups.

Dashdancing into grab works well if you can get the Marth to misspace a f-air, but I doubt that will happen often against a good Marth. Honestly, I'm not even sure how I beat Marths at all; I just wait for them to make a really bad move and then punish as hard as possible.

That is in no way helpful, and I'm sorry.

 

[Druggedfox]

Um i have trouble in this matchup a lot though im just picking up IC's, my IC's are pretty good. I would have to say counter pick stages like Dreamland, poke stadium, and FD. I personally prefer the first two because its not like yoshi's story where if u try to get around him u just get tippered F-smashed, but its not like FD where anytime u get near him u get hit with his long *** sword. Dreamland also provides good mindgames with platforms. Marth is extremely hard to play against, but if u can just wavedash around a little while spamming projectiles the marth will mess up eventually. No one is perfect, so because he doesnt have a projectile annoy himm until he comes to you. When he does make a mistake i personally love wavedash > up tilt. Mostly because out of up tilt u can either hit with up smash and a u air. Or juggle with u airs. Another thing i find helpful is cc next to the edge when edgeguarding then forward or downsmash. What i find usually happens is that if he doesnt sweetspots he killed almost guaranteed. If he does sweetspot then since his sword probably hit u in the processm it will cause u to desync so that they ice climbers forward smash at slightly different times. So if the boy doesnt hit the girl will. Also if it comes down to it... be a ***** and learn how to wobble. Im not saying do it the whole time cuz thats is seriously gay. But lets say u hit him with a fair, then immediately tap "a" and then grab. Around 50 damage it is fairly east to wobble to around 100 damage and downthrow and F smash while still in the throwing animation. If u watch the FCD crew battles chudat does it the exact same way every single match in terms of how he ends it. Though its not the nicest or easiest thing to do...Most tournaments dont ban it unless it becomes a problem. So as long as every time he dies u arent grabbing him at 30% and 0-Death cg'ing him its extremely useful to use it to get a quick stock off at 75%. Also as mentioned wavedash out of shield is AWESOME. I would seriously sit there on lvl i computers with marth (just because computer AI works with using marth for this way of practicing) and forwarrd throw, put your shield up immediately, and then watch as he techs forward every time. Then try wavedashing out of shield and grabbing the second he gets up. After u can do that perfectly, go to IC's and put your shield up, and just practice wavedashing. I found it easiest to do with marth against a fox on FD to practice, b4 switching to my main. GL with it and it also comes down to practice against good players its is hard, but i guess watching chu dat if u still cant do anything about it. XD

 

[Binx]

Wobbles that helps tremendously I didnt even know there was a good mid percent combo, Ive been using grab = smash, although it seems very difficult to grab Marth, and yes fighting Marth on Yoshi Story is probably a lost cause, you can ban neutrals right? I know it would be easier on BF by at least a little bit.

@ Curly: I have been told that, I wasnt WDing out of my shield fast enough because before the only thing I was using wavedashing out of a shield for was getting out from underneath a falco when I was in my shield, thank god I had already learned to do that or playing ICs might be impossible for me. I also wasnt doing the longest wavedash possible but I am working on that. My Marth did alot less wavedashing than ICs because his dash dance just seemed better to me.

Ive found that a rediculous ammount of nana blizzard seems to help me tremendously in this match up, also thanks Drugged, I have been practicing chain grabs against computers, we had a smash fest in Oregon where we ranking battled everyone that went so I play 33 different people round robin style and ended up with a fairly respectable record, I am sorry to say though that I used very little ICs mostly against shieks and a few fox's and a couple falcons, I mostly used Marth and I feel sort of guilty about it, oh well I had fun and placed pretty well, and although oregons game is pretty weak overall I am proud of my placing regardless. As for spamming projectiles I dont think that works cause he cant just fair them or dodge them really easily, if there was a faster way to desynch and have popo do an iceblock by himself so nana could pult or use an aerial then have popo work on a followup based on what they do or dont do to nana then that would be awesome, unfortunately it doesnt seem possible so I dont know how I should be using blocks, you cant really count on them hitting anyone and you have too much lag afterwards to do anything, besides its when Marth is close I have alot of trouble, what do you do about down tilts?

 

[Wobbles]

Druggedfox; I agree about practicing WD out of shield, but it's important that you remember when your shield has been hit you account for the shield stun. You can't punish Marth's tipper against your shield, for instance, because it sends you too far and stuns you for too long.

It's possible to punish Falcon and Ganon's smashes, even though they have a lot of shield stun, but you need to be precise with your timing. Marth's f-smash, however, is pretty forgiving with timing; just don't do it too early or you'll accidentally roll or something.

 

[Druggedfox]

Yea i know, but most marths cant tipper every time can they? Well, i hope not lolz.

 

[Shai Hulud]

Marth is very hard to beat if he knows what he's doing. You can't really shieldgrab Marth out of anything except maybe horribly spaced fairs so don't try it. You should waveshield with light shield in this matchup so you won't get dtilted. Recovering against Marth is basically impossible.

Hmm...what I do is just try to play very fast and confusing to make the Marth mess up. This involves a lot of wavedashing and randomish desynching. If you think there's an opening then wavedash => jab is the easiest to connect with and it usually leads into a JC grab which, if Nana is with you, will lead into massive damage or death.

If you get Marth above you you can juggle him pretty well with uairs. Just watch out for dair...

If you find yourself above Marth you can sometimes get him to miss his utilt or whatever and then fast fall a dair, which if l-cancelled may lead into a grab.

 

[Wobbles]

Shai; whiffed d-tilt is punishable, but you need to:

1) know he's going to d-tilt and be prepared for the moment the animation ends and
2) know he's going to miss it.

So it's stupidly hard. You can punish it by hopping over the very tip with SH f-airs though, which is cool.

Baiting Nana seems to be the best way to confuse Marth's spacing. The only way you can beat him is to make him miss you, and sometimes you have to let him hit Nana to do it. Be careful though, because when he hits her he gets impact lag, and if you space TOO well you can get hit because of it.

I'm still trying to figure out a surefire edgeguard on him. The lightshield edgehog works well most of the time, although sometimes its failed me and gotten me killed which really, REALLY sucks.

Rolling away is your friend, but be careful; you're in a bad situation the moment you run out of level. Platforms get you hurt and the edge is a scary, scary place.

That's all I can think of ATM.

 

[psicicle]

I think you can do a d-throw chainthrow at low percents right? I use it sometimes when I have a single ice climber, so maybe d-throw d-smash chainthrow might also work? I'm not sure if you can DI out or not.

Waveshielding is very important for getting marth out of his f-smash. If you find him doing d-tilt spam in place you might want to do retreating iceblocks instead of trying to get closer because he can fsmash if you try to get in from above with a shorthop and trying a full arial is too slow.

 

[Lixivium]

I'm still trying to figure out a surefire edgeguard on him. The lightshield edgehog works well most of the time, although sometimes its failed me and gotten me killed which really, REALLY sucks.

Unless you have the balls and/or timing to use B-airs near the edge, I'd just go for safe edgehogs and watch for a punishable mistake.

If you can't make it to the edge in time, send some desynched or regular ice blocks his way. Sometimes you can keep him off for quite a while.

 

[Binx]

Unless you have the balls and/or timing to use B-airs near the edge, I'd just go for safe edgehogs and watch for a punishable mistake.

If you can't make it to the edge in time, send some desynched or regular ice blocks his way. Sometimes you can keep him off for quite a while.

I dont like to do the bair regrab cause nana likes to kill herself, when solo though I do try and fit that in if I can, only works once though after that they fair kill you. Thanks for the advice everyone it really helps. I've been doing better against him, not so much on yoshi story but overall.