Need Advice vs Uber Wario (videos included)

[~preCurser]

So basically, I'm trying to take down this mythical beast named Plan 9. Here are my 3 fights with him on video with Zelda. Help...? lol

http://youtube.com/watch?v=xQ2WmifHUpk

http://youtube.com/watch?v=V1EQC-QYqW0

http://youtube.com/watch?v=koGqr8j4Cy0

 

[sFoster]

Use more grabs, your grabbing is absolutely terrible (by terrible I mean non-existant)

Also practice turning in place quickly, and use dtilt in place of dsmash more often.
You're too reliant on moves that hit on boths sides of you rather than quickly pivoting.

Also jump toward him w/ dins rather than standing in place, and if he air dodges follow up with usmash.
Don't shoot the dins when he is so high up in the air, wait for him to get lower so that the air dodge will leave him vulnerable.

ALL THREE of your deaths in match 1 were punishment from faulty teleporting, but I don't think you need me to tell you that.


You're also way too predictable when you jump up in the air as he is recovering.
Don't ALWAYS attack when he is coming back to the ground.

Fake him out sometimes, and do a fast fall air dodge and then attack from the ground instead.

 

[popsofctown]

all of this IMHO:
I don't think sFoster is right about grabbing. Your match may not contain as much grabbing as he'd like, but plan 9 doesn't really give you many opportunities to grab. Unless the opportunities sFoster refers to is combined with his other suggestion: pivoting and using a move rather than hitting both sides. You could grab plan 9 after a shielded aerial lands behind you if you pivoted, i guess. I never do that against Wario, but maybe i'm a noob.

sFoster is definitely correct about you needing more down tilt. Down tilt can rack you lots of damge against Wario. Even with good DI, i think downtilt downtilt Fsmash can be unavoidable.

Sometimes against Wario, i just stand still and decide I'm either going to shield grab or dtilt his next approach, because i know that i need to get downtilt in the game somewhere. And it works, it there's landing lag i can dtilt out of shield, if there's not i can grab. (of course his approach sometimes succeeds entirely, because the plan is imperfect)

I don't (the benefit) understand or recommend sFoster's Din's fire toss approach. If you jump and toss Din's fire with you, it will be airdodged. Then he'll have to finish the airdodge, and you have to do the landing animation for a helpless faller (you used Din's in the air, it counts as a recovery move). I don't see how that really gives you much advantage. The general idea of the approach is just to do something on your terms, which is accomplished, but against Wario i don't think it's a good idea to sacrifice the ability to sit back, think, and just try to react.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Any particular reason that you, a zelda one of the best defensive characters in the game, is addopting a primarily offenive approach to wario?

 

[Aeyr]

Most if not all of the wario's approaches seemed aerial, which is easily punished by an upsmash- which you rarely did. Jumping from teh edge into a f-air is tricky against wario with his f-smash superarmor, which you probably noticed later on...Din's him off his bike if you have the space/time.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Heck... you have a HUGE amount of ways to de-bike him...

My main advice though, is to make him come to you. Wario has NO range and primarily only aerial methods of approach

 

[sFoster]

all of this IMHO:
I don't (the benefit) understand or recommend sFoster's Din's fire toss approach. If you jump and toss Din's fire with you, it will be airdodged. Then he'll have to finish the airdodge, and you have to do the landing animation for a helpless faller (you used Din's in the air, it counts as a recovery move). I don't see how that really gives you much advantage.

I was referring to the situations where wario is higher in the air.. it's very easy for him to air dodge dins, but that leaves him vulnerable IF you're close enough to follow up with something else.

It sounds like maybe you're using din's too high in the air.
Try this - Short Hop, Fast Fall, and then use dins when you're closer to the ground.

If you time it right you can get good distance and you'll be on the ground by the time it explodes.

 

[sFoster]

all of this IMHO:
I don't think sFoster is right about grabbing. Your match may not contain as much grabbing as he'd like, but plan 9 doesn't really give you many opportunities to grab.

Sometimes against Wario, i just stand still and decide I'm going to shield grab his next approach.

10chars

 

[popsofctown]

ahhh you caught me sFoster.

Ok after the clarification, that Din's Fir jump is a good idea. If he's in the, the higher the better, Din's fire cuts off more options than it creates, in spite of the landing lag.

 

[~preCurser]

Use more grabs, your grabbing is absolutely terrible (by terrible I mean non-existant)

Also practice turning in place quickly, and use dtilt in place of dsmash more often.
You're too reliant on moves that hit on boths sides of you rather than quickly pivoting.

Also jump toward him w/ dins rather than standing in place, and if he air dodges follow up with usmash.
Don't shoot the dins when he is so high up in the air, wait for him to get lower so that the air dodge will leave him vulnerable.

ALL THREE of your deaths in match 1 were punishment from faulty teleporting, but I don't think you need me to tell you that.


You're also way too predictable when you jump up in the air as he is recovering.
Don't ALWAYS attack when he is coming back to the ground.

Fake him out sometimes, and do a fast fall air dodge and then attack from the ground instead.

Happen to agree with everything you said, thanks.

I'm really weak when it comes to pivoting, I guess that is what I need to start working on first. First match I did get ***** by teleport, but I don't see what I can do besides try to land it perfectly on the edge. I didn't do it for the first death, but I was most of the time after. Still, he timed it better and just got invulnerable frames. Only other think I can do is just not put myself in that situation, lawl.

I think I didn't grab as much because I was more afraid to with Zelda's slower grab, he was punishing some of my grabbing with wolf. Also, dair to f-smash is disgusting with wario.

In these matches I wasn't really thinking/planning, I was mostly just reacting. I don't get to play many non-online matches with good people often, so just keeping up with him was intense (for the noobish me).

 

[popsofctown]

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=155351

This thread is stickied in my heart.
You played great. That Wario player is epic.

 

[FirebyrdXX]

You down smashed a lot. There was a part where Wario was behind you for about 5 whole sconds and you kept missing each other. Should have just used NL. It lasts long enough to hit after a sidestep or a roll and it launches him in front of you for a good dash attack or anything else. Your tilts need to be used more and definitely play defensively more. Wario can only safely approad so many ways and Zelda has great counters to them.

 

[~preCurser]

I get bored with ultra defensive zelda, but I suppose I was prolly over aggressive in those fights.

Thanks pops.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I get bored with ultra defensive zelda, but I suppose I was prolly over aggressive in those fights.

Thanks pops.

if you don't like being defensive... zelda probably isn't your character. You don't have to be a gay camper... but you have to be defensive

 

[S2]

I was going to give you some advice, but if it's Plan9 than I'll just say good luck, lol. Well, I have beaten him in teams before, but teams is a lot different than 1v1s.

1 tip, remember that Wario can't dodge Din's if he's recovering on his bike. Sometimes getting hit off of it will send him horizontally and not upwards.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

normally it'll send him horizontally if you hit with the leading edge of the attack... either that, or they have to DI it that way... I'm not sure... but, regardless, he won't get the bike back in time

 

[Doodx]

i dont know about the other guys but wen someone tries to gimp MY recovery i dair and laugh my *** of at watching them cry... and i mean its wario!! he was alot of times right through you were the sweetspotted dair WILL work
you also seem not to grab(i got the same problem you know)
and running smash is VERY good and can actualy make zelda combo sometimes like running smash to dair
i dont know why but i dair alot when i have the chance because there is a higher chance that dair will work instead of doing a bair or fair sweetspotted when you have nothing under you to stop him from dying + zelda can recover from VERY far and faster than most characters(i think)
i bet you didnt even read until this point lol
and when someone is right next to you trying to **** you, just dsmash whicch i think you lack doing because it is very fast and it actualy gave kos to me

 

[popsofctown]

if you don't like being defensive... zelda probably isn't your character. You don't have to be a gay camper... but you have to be defensive

Haha, try to convincing DM of that.
DM is an exception though, honestly, your fights will be easier if you play less offensively.
Against character's like Wario, you might not even need Din's to force the approach. The Wario just might do it automatically like instinct. Definitely don't camp against Wario if you don't have to, i find that when i'm not camping i can react to approaches better.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

DM is also an exceptional enough Zelda that he doesn't need to be defensive... though I think that if he practiced a bit more discression in when to approach and when not to he'd be even better.

 

[FirebyrdXX]

and when someone is right next to you trying to **** you, just dsmash whicch i think you lack doing because it is very fast and it actualy gave kos to me

Watch the first video again. He did it quite a bit.

 

[Darkmusician]

DM is also an exceptional enough Zelda that he doesn't need to be defensive... though I think that if he practiced a bit more discression in when to approach and when not to he'd be even better.

True enough. That's why I keep practicing. But I do try to calculate everything I do. I just do my best.

Sometimes you can't help but be defensive against certain people and certain characters. But it depends.

Curser did fine in these matches. I think if he just plays Plan 9 more it'll get better. Maybe a couple grabs mixed in here or there and just getting used to Warios air control and what moves tend to come after one another. Also memorizing patterns/tendencies in Wario's recovery/approach. And also memorize the length and lag of his powerful moves. It helps alot.

Other then that keep up the good work. :]

 

[Veggie123]

I think you made a good use of a lot of Zelda's moves, some of those matches could have gone either way if it weren't for a few silly mistakes. (Sheik transformation comes to mind!) You put up a good fight overall, ~preCurser!

Though, one problem that stuck out to me was the lack of sweetspotting the ledge when attempting to recover. Farore's Wind can give Zelda a lot of distance, but most of the time you can get back on the stage without having to use it. If Zelda needs to use Farore's Wind, then chances are she has been knocked far enough to the point that you're in KOable percentages.

So then your options boil down to sweetspotting the ledge for a safe recovery or back onto the stage where you're prone to be punished. Sure you can miss the sweetspot resulting in a self-destruct, but if you teleported back on the stage you'd get KO'd anyway by a smash or some other ultra powerful move. Then there's the chance of your opponent edgehogging you if they catch on to your sweetspotting goal, and that's when it's safer to teleport onto the stage...and you're going to want to teleport as close to the center as possible. If you do happen to land near the edge, it shouldn't be too much of a problem since characters have limited offensive options when getting back up onto the stage.

 

[psike]

Good advice all around : ) The best advice I've heard so far is that you should switch up your moves a little bit. Also, watch the arials. Warios airs are really quick, so do a dodge and punish with the uair/upsmash. Also, definitely use the dtilt a bit more to rack up a few % more when you have him just out of range on the ground.

Edit: I forgot to mention that you are very good : )

Edit2: Also, listen to DM well- he's go the Zelda skills!

 

[~preCurser]

True enough. That's why I keep practicing. But I do try to calculate everything I do. I just do my best.

Sometimes you can't help but be defensive against certain people and certain characters. But it depends.

Curser did fine in these matches. I think if he just plays Plan 9 more it'll get better. Maybe a couple grabs mixed in here or there and just getting used to Warios air control and what moves tend to come after one another. Also memorizing patterns/tendencies in Wario's recovery/approach. And also memorize the length and lag of his powerful moves. It helps alot.

Other then that keep up the good work. :]

Thanks. This was the first time I got a sit down with Plan 9, I'm hoping next time will be more interesting.

Maybe I was playing too offensively, but I like to keep it fast paced. Next time we play I'll be trying more neutral aerials, grabs and sweetspots with Farore's (thanks for breakdown veggie). I post newer ones when we get a chance to do it again.