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Natural Talent

Divinokage

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 6, 2006
Messages
16,250
Location
Montreal, Quebec
Perhaps his past experiences helped him to understand what he truly needed to do a lot faster. Talent is the ability to understand a problem because obviously most players or I guess even everyone in a given discipline cannot be at the same level ever because their brain processes information differently. If you can connect those wires in your brain a lot faster then you'll plow through your problems one by one until you reach a strong level.
 

BEES

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 23, 2008
Messages
1,051
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
The concept of natural talent is quite intimidating to me, seeing as it took me months to learn to wavedash consistently and further months to learn to L-cancel consistently. Heck, just short-hopping and fast-falling was tough for me. Light presses on those X/Y buttons. Too light for my taste. I still pick up Fox after playing other characters for a while and can't short hop without spending some time warming up. It's taken years to figure out why I lose, where the weaknesses are in my approaches and mixups that allow opponents to get right in.

Every aspect of learning this game has been a brute force slog for me. I have absolutely no trace of natural talent and everything has been forced. People talk about age sometimes. Maybe that's it. Perhaps it's because I started playing it at the age of 21, and I had never played anything remotely similar before. RTS mostly. Started with Brawl too before going back to Melee.

I find people that traverse the landscape I slogged through for four years in just a few months and some change utterly intimidating. Those *******s.
 

KrIsP!

Smash Champion
Joined
Oct 8, 2007
Messages
2,599
Location
Toronto, Ontario
I know what you mean bees. Them *******s. But your not the only one going up an incline and really, part of the reason I haven't quite playing a game where everyone is so far ahead and I have no real training partner is because I kind of want to prove something to myself by just sticking with it.
 

ZaXXoR

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 21, 2012
Messages
327
Location
St.Catharines
lol I cant figure out what the censor is, I guess you could call it natural talent, but honestly I find it was pretty easy to start learning the advanced techniques, it involved looking at my friends hands when he played and asking questions. The hard part is perfecting the advanced techniques so you don't randomly airdodge and kill yourself/set them up to kill you. And think about it, they wouldnt be able to become good fast if there weren't amazing players already.
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
11,153
Location
Jarrettsville, MD
lol I cant figure out what the censor is, I guess you could call it natural talent, but honestly I find it was pretty easy to start learning the advanced techniques, it involved looking at my friends hands when he played and asking questions. The hard part is perfecting the advanced techniques so you don't randomly airdodge and kill yourself/set them up to kill you. And think about it, they wouldnt be able to become good fast if there weren't amazing players already.
I will tell you. Email me: no
 

DoH

meleeitonme.tumblr.com
Joined
Jul 1, 2004
Messages
7,618
Location
Washington, DC
I think a good example of talent vs work is comparing the careers of Chu and Wobbles. Wobbles really isn't that talented at this game - he'll admit that freely himself - but his results are an accomplishment inspite of that. He is severely underrated when it comes to amount of effort put into this game. Chu just kind of shows up and is awesome, and can't really articulate why things work.
 

Coo_Too_Tim

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 9, 2005
Messages
81
Location
Brookport Illinois
I think age also has its effect.

I believe if the community was younger, we could have better talent, the older we are getting, the more that life interferes with "practice" and player development.
This is true for me. Smash was my one true love but no one around here played anymore so I stopped playing since at the time I couldn't travel. Now I'm married. =/
 
Joined
Feb 3, 2008
Messages
858
Location
PWN
Talent, in perspective.

I feel I have something to contribute.


Talent, as we refer to it, is something of an initial disposition or will, applied and given opportunity by circumstance, and seen in its expression of success.


This isn't to say talent defines us
or limits us, in some way

but rather that there are forces influencing our thoughts and behaviors and desires (or goals), and that though these can be worked through and changed, over time, and with certain steps of metanoia (change of mind, like in perspective, realization, or epiphany), some of us have a better initial combination suited for the task at hand.

Or, "natural talent."

(So, it's true - there are probably many people who could be good at smash, who don't play the game - likewise, there are many of us who are probably good at something else, but not necessarily smash - and then there are those of us who probably... haven't found what that is yet. But, we're only seeing the ones who are here, now.)


This also means that the expression of talent can give clues about its origin.

Where smash is a game, with
depth, complexity, and capacity for competition,
We find that our thoughts, and even desires
are reflected in the expression that is our play.

In this way, a game acts as a battle of one against himself, or as a challenge with another to seek out what there is to find (like how your thoughts of how to play succeed or fail against your friend's, or even the limitations of the game), and in this sense serves as one challenge of many that you could have in your life (or whatever) that pits your desires and thoughts against some sort threshing floor or proving ground in order to grow and refine your knowledge of yourself, your ability to analyze and learn, and your knowledge of how you interact and respond to difficult events.

As such, a game, though it can be played forever, has somewhat of a finite purpose to what it can tell or teach you - and after you've reached that certain point, wherever you feel it is for you, the game changes for you, in that the decision to play it changes in some way.

Even in our natural discussions we compare and contrast who is better, what the best strategy or mindset is, and how to succeed the most with what is available. But that doesn't mean we'll necessarily become the best - but it points out options for how we can become better.


But this means talent can also come from other places. Whether it be the type of our drive to win, or the mindset we have while facing this challenge, what we learn by doing on our own, or by figuring things out elsewhere in life, we can apply to smash - and vice-versa. Talent in one area can translate to another - and what that 'talent' can be can exist in lesser-known or in greater-known areas: smash, compared to chess; managing friends, to managing a family; coping with disability, to winning an olympic medal.

In one sense, talent is something you understand 'by not looking at directly.' This works both way: for us, it's hard (impossible?) to understand the actual driving force behind one's ability by looking at them and trying to understand it/them - though we can see reflections of that drive through how they cultivate and act on that ability; and for them (and us), you have to realize that they're (probably) not relying on how well they're 'hitting a mark' compared to other people - they're just relying on 'themself', in whatever allows them to step forward in their task - which means that they're not looking at something either, trying to figure out what it is that someone has that gives then 'natural talent' - they're already making that natural talent... naturally.

At least, in the area that we're focusing on, like smash.

***

Some anecdotes.

[COLLAPSE="On reflections"]When I use to play this game, I realize now, that I was trying to play in a way that, if I won, I would have won in a 'right' way. That is, I would want my playstyle to somehow embody the 'best' possible decisions and actions for my character, in all situations, and if I won without doing that, I wouldn't feel satisfied, to the point where I'd even stop doing as well by the last stock or two, if I were doing really well in the beginning (probably because I was afraid a challenge would be gone if that were true, which is a wrong assumption, of course). Or, like in the few tournaments I was in, I couldn't bring myself to do well (for a few reasons), but one of them probably because I was afraid that if I put out my all where it mattered, I might not be accepted for what I was able to offer (in a sort of messed up sense like that). In this way, smash showed (among many other, smaller things) some insight to my initial drive to play, and how this hindered my 'success' overall (though, like in the first case, it may have helped me understand more about my character or odd nuances of the game more than most - and it did). And I was able to take this knowledge away from that, and apply it elsewhere (or if I wanted to, back on to playing smash).[/COLLAPSE]
[COLLAPSE="On a friend's 'talent' and 'effort'"]My friend has played this game for so long, and has played to win for so long, he really excels with just 'natural' dominance, excellence, and knowledge of the game. He always has, with games before this, and games after. And even with his lack of tournament experience, he still holds his own against the top players (if it counts, like taking a match from l ovage in pools in a tournament recently, if that matters at all). He spent a lot of time with the game, and explored it to its ends until he was satisfied. He's logged a few thousand hours probably. And every time he plays, he gets better. But he hasn't really been to tournaments, and he hasn't really been around other people to play - so his growth in smash is stifled, to say the least. But, his talent is there... he could really get really good. But, he'll probably never be in that limelight of having the chance to play and test his skills against all the top players around him. Regardless, he came in with the right mindset, and he's still advanced with the right mindset - and it's something you can see in him when you play him, and it's something even he'll tell you you can't really try to analyze and 'own', unless you're already owning it yourself.[/COLLAPSE]
 

BP4

Smash Rookie
Joined
Apr 23, 2012
Messages
1
Newcomer

Hey guys,

I'm brand new to this forum, kinda just stumbled across this topic but it sounded too intriguing to disregard. I've never played in an official tournament, and haven't the first clue what differentiates tournament players from your average smash aficionado. However, judging from my own experience, I'm willing to bet that the majority of talent refrains from entering tournaments for any number of reasons. The concept of playing smash for cash prizes simply doesn't register with most young gamers, even though they're probably capable of competing against the best. Thinking back, I can honestly say that Smash represents one of the few consistencies in my life, but it's never dawned on me that I possess the wherewithal to excel in a tournament. Fantastic topic though; definitely one worth discussing with my circle of friends. What advice would you extend to someone who's considering entering these types of competitions? Specifically, how can they best prepare? Looking forward your responses!
 

Krynxe

I can't pronounce it either
Joined
Aug 1, 2011
Messages
4,903
Location
Lakewood, WA
3DS FC
4511-0472-1729
Hey guys,

I'm brand new to this forum, kinda just stumbled across this topic but it sounded too intriguing to disregard. I've never played in an official tournament, and haven't the first clue what differentiates tournament players from your average smash aficionado. However, judging from my own experience, I'm willing to bet that the majority of talent refrains from entering tournaments for any number of reasons. The concept of playing smash for cash prizes simply doesn't register with most young gamers, even though they're probably capable of competing against the best. Thinking back, I can honestly say that Smash represents one of the few consistencies in my life, but it's never dawned on me that I possess the wherewithal to excel in a tournament. Fantastic topic though; definitely one worth discussing with my circle of friends. What advice would you extend to someone who's considering entering these types of competitions? Specifically, how can they best prepare? Looking forward your responses!
Hello BP4, welcome to the Smashboards. :)

I can definitely see where you're coming from, people not wanting to spend money while feeling assured that they cannot win due to their lack of experience and such. However, the money not only gives those who participate an incentive to win but also gives those who just join a huge drive to improve, aiming for that money. It adds to the competitive atmosphere, causing each tournament to be a time to test your own skills and how much you've improved with something of yours on the line. It might not be the best system for attracting new players, but if one is dedicated, the game definitely becomes a much more significant part of their life.

Playing against a player much better than you, and of course losing horribly to them, often results in one of two things: Motivation or lack thereof; that is if one feels obligated to improve often striving on pride, or feels demoralized and helplessly unable to reach what they once thought was easily accessible. This is usually what occurs the first time someone enters one of these tournaments, and if the former, we'll often see that new face again.

As for yourself preparing yourself for such a tournament, you've already taken the first step and involved yourself in the community. :) Unlike most fighters, (using that term loosely; I don't wish to start an "is smash a fighter" debate) people often don't realize how competitive or in-depth this game really is. Becoming familiar with that knowledge is, in my opinion, the first step towards improvement. Take a look at this thread
to get a glimpse at what Melee has to offer. Additionally, Youtube is one of your most helpful resource. Once you feel comfortable with the basics, try to move on to more in-depth things such as heading to your character's board and looking at match-up information or even frame data/hitboxes. Don't ever be let down, things may seem impossible at first but I guarantee that you will see huge results and large improvement if you stay dedicated. Even the "basics" are very difficult for new players and may take a very long time to get down. The game only gets easier once your technical skill and mindset are trained/experienced.

I hope this helps.
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
11,153
Location
Jarrettsville, MD
^That shiz is all well and good, but most of all just have fun. Not that that's hard when you're playing Melee, but at the end of the day, winning isn't going to come easy if you're not enjoying the game.
 

Cummings

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Sep 25, 2011
Messages
96
Location
Ledyard, CT (Right next to Foxwoods/Mohegan Sun)
Hey guys,

I'm brand new to this forum, kinda just stumbled across this topic but it sounded too intriguing to disregard. I've never played in an official tournament, and haven't the first clue what differentiates tournament players from your average smash aficionado. However, judging from my own experience, I'm willing to bet that the majority of talent refrains from entering tournaments for any number of reasons. The concept of playing smash for cash prizes simply doesn't register with most young gamers, even though they're probably capable of competing against the best. Thinking back, I can honestly say that Smash represents one of the few consistencies in my life, but it's never dawned on me that I possess the wherewithal to excel in a tournament. Fantastic topic though; definitely one worth discussing with my circle of friends. What advice would you extend to someone who's considering entering these types of competitions? Specifically, how can they best prepare? Looking forward your responses!
I feel like you and i are quite similar BP4... i've been playing this game for years and years but never went to a tournament because i was straight up too intimidated to play against the "pros", as well as playing for any stakes other than pride.

but after having actually gone to a small tournament, i can tell you that while the higher tier players are in fact playing for money, for you and i its more about the experience of it all. having so many people all with a glorious similar interest, who are all willing to play a friendly and usually ARE friendly when it comes to any questions you might have- like bones said, at the end of the day its just a blast.

BP4 represents an interesting demographic though. The world of competitive smash is pretty underground, and it can be pretty difficult to actually unearth, even on the internet. how many players who are "naturally talented" play all the time but are just plain oblivious to the hidden world here on Smash boards?
I myself learned about the actual game's depth from a friend, but didnt actually discover these boards (and therefore the tournaments listed here) until nearly half a year after i began practicing daily.


my roomate for example, was ecstatic when i told him i was bringing my cube to my dorm (he loved ssbm too) but when he saw all the tech skills he was like dafuq?
so he started to practice them with my guidance (tech skills only, I'm still not proficient enouph at spacing and mindgames ect to be teaching anyone) and now after only about 3 months, his tech skill arrived where mine took nearly a year to get to.
also i think his spacing/approaches are better than mine now.
but he wouldn't have gotten this good if he had not been randomly selected as the roommate of someone here on the boards. what of the people who aren't as lucky?
 

Blu

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 10, 2012
Messages
159
Location
Sarasota (Midwest Florida)
God, I ****ing love this game. Looking back at what once was versus what is just makes me more excited about what will be...

BP4, if you think you like this game now, just you wait.
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
11,153
Location
Jarrettsville, MD
That's why I think it's really important for TOs to target college audiences as potential tourney-goers. Stuff as simple as a notice on a bulletin outside of a dorm elevator could easily get a small group of friends to attend their very first tournament.
 

GrazzaB

Smash Rookie
Joined
Apr 2, 2012
Messages
22
That's why I think it's really important for TOs to target college audiences as potential tourney-goers. Stuff as simple as a notice on a bulletin outside of a dorm elevator could easily get a small group of friends to attend their very first tournament.
This^.

I can definately agree with that. My first tournament was one I found out on a bulletin, and it made me realize how much I needed to improve and how great the community was <3
 

KrIsP!

Smash Champion
Joined
Oct 8, 2007
Messages
2,599
Location
Toronto, Ontario
What advice would you extend to someone who's considering entering these types of competitions? Specifically, how can they best prepare? Looking forward your responses!
The reason this game has lasted so long is because it's accessible but has a steep learning curve. When you go to your first tourney, do it to learn. Unless you have access to competitive players to play with a lot, your going to lose hard and that should be okay with you. <-I know this all too well. This game isn't easy, but it's soooo damn fun, so stick with it and check out the everything thread as well as asking questions. Watch wak's ssbm advanced technique videos on youtube to get yourself started...and welcome.
 
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