Mystery of the 7 Needles - Extensive Lucas Research Thread

Kodystri · Sep 1, 2015

Someone better title please ;-;

Hello Guys(Please come up with better, catchy title). This is Kodystri, a hardcore Lucas and Ness Comain and I finally want to start extensive and strict research on all the tools Lucas can do on everything. If you need to find something, press CTRL + F and find the thing you need. I have them separated by moves.

If anything that could be improved with the organizing, please let me know, just know I am working on things atm.

Also for fun, I will throw in some random jokes and easter eggs in here

I am also would like help aside from test subjects. But beware, this will be pretty strict and i want this to be as accurate as possible. You can find the application at post 4.
This includes:

Frame Data
Punish Options on certain moves against certain Characters.
When Fairs starts knocking people over
PSI Magnet Heal Percent(Done anyways lol)
Up Throw Kill Percents on all legal Stages
Back Throw kill percents on all legal stages.
Kill Percents on all moves that can kill.
Guarantee Combos(Unescapable, doesn't neccessary mean it is a true combo on the Training mode counter)
Footstools
Jab Locks
Ledge Coverage Options
Edgeguarding Options
and more that I need to remember.

However, all of this will take a long time to completely finish. I am dedicated to get all the info we need about Lucas to become a successful Lucas player(Mostly because I am going to do serious labbing with him and want to be the best Lucas player in the world.) I will also try to include videos as well!

Table of Contents

http://www.kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Lucas Just go here for now.

Jab 1 - IASA frame 20, TASA frame 7

-Hitbox ID=0x0 (body hitbox) - active 2-4; 2.5% damage, 30° angle; 0 BKB, 30 FKB, 100 KBG; 1.0 hitlag, 1.0 SDI
-Hitbox ID=0x1 (leg hitbox) - active 2-4; 2.5% damage, 66° angle; 0 BKB, 18 FKB, 100 KBG; 1.0 hitlag, 1.0 SDI
-Hitbox ID=0x2 (foot hitbox) - active 2-4; 2.5% damage, 87° angle; 0 BKB, 16 FKB, 100 KBG; 1.0 hitlag, 1.0 SDI

Jab 2 - IASA frame 20, TASA frame 7

-Hitbox ID=0x0 (body hitbox) - active 3-5; 2.0% damage, 30° angle; 0 BKB, 30 FKB,10 0 KBG; 1.0 hitlag, 1.0 SDI
-Hitbox ID=0x1 (leg hitbox) - active 3-5; 2.0% damage, 70° angle; 0 BKB, 18 FKB, 100 KBG; 1.0 hitlag, 1.0 SDI
-Hitbox ID=0x2 (foot hitbox) - active 3-5; 2.0% damage, 88° angle; 0 BKB, 16 FKB, 100 KBG; 1.0 hitlag, 1.0 SDI

Jab 3 - IASA frame 30

-Hitbox ID=0x0 (body hitbox) - active 6-8; 4.0% damage, 48° angle; 80 BKB, 0 FKB, 60 KBG; 1.0 hitlag, 1.0 SDI
-Hitbox ID=0x1 (leg hitbox) - active 6-8; 4.0% damage, 48° angle; 80 BKB, 0 FKB, 60 KBG; 1.0 hitlag, 1.0 SDI
-Hitbox ID=0x2 (foot hitbox) - active 6-8; 4.0% damage, 48° angle; 80 BKB, 0 FKB, 60 KBG; 1.0 hitlag, 1.0 SDI

Fastest possible jab combo hits 2-4, 9-11, 18-20; IASA frame 42.
Three hitboxes on each hit, and they are prioritized from innermost to outermost, so if the opponent's hurtboxes overlap any two or more hitboxes, he'll be hit by the one closest to Lucas's body. That innermost hitbox explains why Lucas seems to be able to hit foes behind him.

Forward tilt - IASA frame 26

-Hitbox ID=0x0 (hand hitbox) - active 7-8; 7.5% damage, 361° angle; 20 BKB, 0 FKB, 60 KBG; 1.0 hitlag, 1.0 SDI
-Hitbox ID=0x1 (PSI hitbox) - active 7-8; 11.0% damage, 361° angle; 30 BKB, 0 FKB, 75 KBG; 1.0 hitlag, 1.0 SDI
The slowest of all of Lucas's tilts, hitting frame 7 as opposed to d-tilt's frame 3 and up tilt's frame 4. Like with dash attack, his hand has priority over the hexagons. Mainly used for spacing or beating out an opponent's slower options, but its 361° angles mean it can cause a jab lock at low percentages. At low percentages, weak f-tilt can combo into strong f-tilt. Also like with dash attack, the sweet spot is completely disjointed.

Down tilt - IASA frame 16

Hitbox ID=0x0 (waist hitbox) active 3-4; 3.0% damage, 76° angle; 18 BKB, 0 FKB, 50 KBG; 0.7 hitlag, 0.4 SDI
Hitbox ID=0x1 (leg hitbox) active 3-4; 3.0% damage, 40° angle; 10 BKB, 0 FKB, 45 KBG; 0.7 hitlag, 0.4 SDI
Hitbox ID=0x2 (foot hitbox) active 3-4; 3.0% damage, 0° angle; 8 BKB, 0 FKB, 40 KBG; 0.7 hitlag, 0.4 SDI
Down Tilt hits on frame 3; interruptible as soon as frame 16. 76° body hitbox, 42° leg hitbox, 0° foot hitbox. The 0° is denoted as a horizontal line across to show it will always send the opponent straight back without ever putting them in the air; this it the hitbox you use if you're going to extend a jab lock, as the other two will pop the opponent up.

The camera panning makes the hitboxes seem like they have less reach than they do, but they reach pretty far.\

Up tilt - IASA frame 37

-Hitbox ID=0x0 (hand hitbox) active 4; 1.5% damage, 120° angle; 0 BKB, 60 FKB, 100 KBG; 0.5 hitlag, 1.0 SDI
-Hitbox ID=0x1 (hand hitbox) active 4; 1.5% damage, 120° angle; 0 BKB, 60 FKB, 100 KBG; 0.5 hitlag, 1.0 SDI

-Hitbox ID=0x0 (leg-PSI hitbox) active 7-10; 8.0 damage, 93° angle; 50 BKB, 0 FBK, 100 KBG; 1.0 hitlag, 1.0 SDI
-Hitbox ID=0x1 (body hitbox) active 7-10; 8.0 damage, 93° angle; 50 BKB, 0 FBK, 100 KBG; 1.0 hitlag, 1.0 SDI
-Hitbox ID=0x0 (leg-PSI hitbox) active 11-14; 5.0 damage, 90° angle; 50 BKB, 0 FBK, 100 KBG; 0.5 hitlag, 1.0 SDI
Those two hitboxes on the ground hit frame 4, then the main two hitboxes hit 3 frames later (frame 7). At frame 11, the bottom hitbox disappears and the top hitbox shrinks in size, becoming the late hitbox and switching from 93°-angle to 90°. The late hitbox lasts until frame 15, no longer active frame 16.

Forward smash - charge: frame 8; IASA frame 47

-Hitbox ID=0x0 (base hitbox) active 14-15; 14.0% damage, 361° angle; 50 BKB, 0 FKB, 88 KBG; 1.0 hitlag, 1.0 SDI
-Hitbox ID=0x1 (tipper hitbox) active 14-15; 15.0% damage, 361° angle; 50 BKB, 0 FKB, 88 KBG; 1.2 hitlag, 1.0 SDI
Forward Smash hits on frames 14-15; IASA frame 47. The tip of the stick does an extra 1% to your opponent. It can also reflect projectiles with 1.5x Reflection with an 80% Break Threshold. It's just a solid, fully disjointed whack to the opponent's face,It launches at a 45° angle after 42% (361°--Sakurai--angle).

Down smash - charge: frame 6; IASA frame 60; if one of the hitboxes connects with a collision box, all subsequent ones become inactive.

Hitbox ID=0x0 (PSI hitbox) active 20-21; 17.0% damage, 361° angle; 43 BKB, 0 FKB, 90 KBG; 1.0 hitlag, 1.0 SDI

Hitbox ID=0x0 (PSI hitbox) active 29-30; 14.0% damage, 361° angle; 30 BKB, 0 FKB, 90 KBG; 1.0 hitlag, 1.0 SDI

Hitbox ID=0x0 (PSI hitbox) active 39-40; 11.0% damage, 361° angle; 20 BKB, 0 FKB, 90 KBG; 1.0 hitlag, 1.0 SDI
19-frame start-up, with the hitboxes hitting at frames 20-21, 29-30, and 39-40; IASA frame 60 (it's exactly a full second of commitment). All hitboxes have the same launch angle (Sakurai), but increase in size while decreasing in kill power. All hitboxes are able to cover the ledge snap area, but the timing is rather strict as the opponent has fairly large windows to snap throughout the move--namely frames 1-19, 22-28, and 31-38. Once a hitbox hits someone, all the other hit fails to connect.

Up smash - full-body invincibility 1-4; charge: frame 5 (lol); IASA frame 99

-Hitbox ID=0x0 (shockwave) active 28; 2.0% damage, 110° angle; 0 BKB, 110 FKB, 90 KBG; 1.0 hitlag, 1.0 SDI
-Hitbox ID=0x1 (shockwave) active 28; 2.0% damage, 110° angle; 0 BKB, 110 FKB, 90 KBG; 1.0 hitlag, 1.0 SDI

-Hitbox ID=0x0 (knees-PSI hitbox) active 30-32; 19.0% damage, 95° angle; 48 BKB, 0 FKB; 77 KBG; 1.0 hitlag, 1.0 SDI
-Hitbox ID=0x1 (hip-PSI hitbox) active 33-37; 18.0% damage, 95° angle; 42 BKB, 0 FKB; 77 KBG; 1.0 hitlag, 1.0 SDI
-Hitbox ID=0x2 (chest-PSI hitbox) active 38-42; 16.0% damage, 95° angle; 37 BKB, 0 FKB; 77 KBG; 1.0 hitlag, 1.0 SDI
-Hitbox ID=0x3 (PSI hitbox) active 43-47; 14.0% damage, 95° angle; 32 BKB, 0 FKB; 77 KBG; 1.0 hitlag, 1.0 SDI
-Hitbox ID=0x0 (PSI hitbox) active 48-52; 12.0% damage, 95° angle; 27 BKB, 0 FKB; 77 KBG; 1.0 hitlag, 1.0 SDI; Aerial-only hitbox
Frames 1-4 are green for invincibility. The two large hitboxes on either side of Lucas hit frame 28, reaching pretty deep under the stage, allowing up smash to hit characters on the ledge. Their 110° pulls them into the strongest hitbox of the move at frame 30. Frame 33 introduces a slightly smaller, slightly weaker hitbox that is overlapped by the sweetspot. The sweetspot disappears one frame later (34), then the pattern repeats every 5 frames: 38, 43, then 48. Each consecutive hitbox is smaller, and placed higher than the last. Frames 48-53 only hit aerial opponents, so someone under the effects of a Super Mushroom can be standing in that final hitbox and won't be affected until he decides to jump (although that scenario happening is pretty much impossible since it's only a 4-frame window between when the second-to-last hitbox overlaps the final hitbox and the final hitbox disappears).

Dash attack - IASA frame 42

-Hitbox ID=0x0 (hand hitbox) - active 17-18; 9.0% damage, 75° angle; 70 BKB, 0 FKB, 60 KBG; 1.0 hitlag, 1.0 SDI
-Hitbox ID=0x1 (PSI hitbox) - active 17-18; 13.0% damage, 46° angle; 70 BKB, 0, FKB, 60 KBG; 1.2 hitlag, 1.0 SDI
This move hits on 15-16, so it's a slow, very short attack but with only 23 frames of cooldown (relatively little for a dash attack) it starts giving you frame advantage as your rage or your opponent's percentage starts to increase. To take advantage of said frame advantage, though, you have to hit with the 75° sour spot hitbox, as the 46° sweet spot hits far too strong to be followed up on. So basically: if you hit with the sour spot, combo; if you hit with the sweet spot, take stage control. A good time to use dash attack is to follow up on a missed tech, but this move doesn't have any long-lasting hitboxes like many other dash attacks, so you still have to be precise with it, like with the rest of his toolkit. The sweet spot is completely disjointed, but the hitbox has lower priority than the sour spot on his hand, so if you touch an opponent with his hand they'll get launched more vertically.

Neutral air - IASA frame 45, AC window 37>, 13-frame landing lag

-Hitbox ID=0x0 (full body hitbox) - active 7-23, re-hit rate: 5 frames; 1.0% damage, 367° angle; 20 BKB, 0 FKB, 70 KBG; 1.0 hitlag, 2.0 SDI

-Hitbox ID=0x0 (full body hitbox) - active 26; 4.0%, 60° angle; 40 BKB, 0 FKB, 140 KBG; 1.5 hitlag, 1.0 SDI
The first hitbox lasts frames 5-23, re-hitting the opponent every 5 frames with the strange 367° semi-autolink angle (I have no idea what it's actually called). What this special angle basically does is, instead of pushing the opponent in the direction Lucas is traveling (like the 366° proper autolink angle), this angle repeatedly pulls the opponent into the hitbox. I think the reason this nair uses this specific angle over 366 is because of the amount of hitlag and SDI the move has due to its electric property. This semi-autolink angle basically "resets" the opponent into the hitbox as they try to SDI and fall out of it. The weak 1% damage output and its weak 20 base knockback means that, despite its special launch angle, it's still very easy for an opponent at low percentages to fall out of the move because it's just not strong enough to keep pulling the opponent at the same speed that Lucas moves. The complete lack of disjoint on the move also means that literally every attack in the game (save knockback-less moves--a.k.a. Fox's laser) will knock Lucas out of it.

Anyway, the long first hitbox (it's all one constant hitbox that activates and re-activates every 5 frames from when it first makes contact) ends at frame 23, then the body-wide launcher hits frame 26, launching at a 60° and dealing a weak 4%. Due to its high knockback growth (a value of 140) and being interruptible a very quick 18 frames after the final hitbox--with an auto-cancel starting frame 37 (or TEN frames after said hitbox--that's almost immediate)--, it has a ton of frame advantage on-hit, allowing you to combo into basically anything you want, given your follow-up can reach the opponent. This is a very fascinating move, overall.

Forward air - IASA frame 42, AC window: 1, 38>, 15-frame landing lag

-Hitbox ID=0x0 (leg hitbox) active 9-10; 9.0% damage, 361° angle; 10 BKB, 0 FKB, 97 KBG; 1.0 hitlag, 1.0 SDI
-Hitbox ID=0x0 (leg hitbox) active 11; 6.0% damage, 361° angle; 7 BKB, 0 FKB, 100 KBG; 0.8 hitlag, 1.0 SDI
-Hitbox ID=0x1 (PSI hitbox) active 9-12; 11.0%, 46°; 30 BKB, 0 FKB, 100 KBG; 1.2 hitlag, 1.0 SDI
Sweet spot is disjointed, but the sour spot takes priority. You must hit with the sour spot's 361° angle in order to perform a jab lock. It's also a great move for spacing and works great to wall out an opponent when you use it as you retreat. Try not to approach with it as it's got very few active frames (frames 9-12) and a hefty 15 frames of landing lag. Frameswise, 9-10 has the small sour spot (his leg) overlapping the sweet spot (the hexagons). The sweet spot disappears after frame 10, and the only hitbox active from 11-12 is the jab-locking hitbox on his leg.

Back air - IASA frame 40, AC window: 1-2, 39>, 15-frame landing lag

-Hitbox ID=0x0 (body hitbox) active 15-20; 9.0% damage, 361°; 30 BKB, 0 FKB, 80 KBG; 1.0 hitlag, 1.0 SDI
-Hitbox ID=0x1 (knee-interior PSI hitbox) active 15-20; 12.0% damage, 280° angle; 30 BKB, 0 FKB, 90 KBG; 1.0 hitlag, 1.0 SDI; Aerial-only hitbox
-Hitbox ID=0x2 (knee-interior PSI hitbox) active 15-20; 12.0% damage, 361° angle; 30 BKB, 0 FKB, 90 KBG; 1.0 hitlag, 1.0 SDI
-Hitbox ID=0x3 (exterior PSI hitbox) active 15-20; 7.0% damage, 361° angle; 10 BKB, 0 FKB, 60 KBG; 1.0 hitlag, 1.0 SDI

Three active hitboxes with increasing priority the closer towards his torso. The x's on the sour spots denote a 361° angle and the meteor hitbox has an angle of 280°, so opponents will get launched down and behind Lucas (the Sheik here is DI'ing inwards). Said meteor hitbox is only active against airborne opponents, so that big middle hitbox would have a big "x" for an angle had Sheik been on the ground.

Down air - frame 57, AC window 47>, 24-frame landing lag

Hitbox ID=0x0 (foot-PSI hitbox) active 10-12; 3.5% damage, 90° angle; 42 BKB, 0 FKB, 10 KBG; 1.0 hitlag, 1.0 SDI
Hitbox ID=0x0 (torso hitbox) active 10-12; 3.5% damage, 270° angle; 0 BKB, 20 FKB, 100 KBG; 1.0 hitlag. 1.0 SDI

Hitbox ID=0x0 (foot-PSI hitbox) active 18-20; 3.5% damage, 90° angle; 42 BKB, 0 FKB, 10 KBG; 1.0 hitlag, 1.0 SDI
Hitbox ID=0x0 (torso hitbox) active 18-20; 3.5% damage, 270° angle; 0 BKB, 20 FKB, 100 KBG; 1.0 hitlag. 1.0 SDI

Hitbox ID=0x0 (foot-PSI hitbox) active 26-28; 3.5% damage, 90° angle; 42 BKB, 0 FKB, 10 KBG; 1.0 hitlag, 1.0 SDI
Hitbox ID=0x0 (torso hitbox) active 26-28; 3.5% damage, 270° angle; 0 BKB, 20 FKB, 100 KBG; 1.0 hitlag. 1.0 SDI

Hitbox ID=0x0 (foot-PSI hitbox) active 32-34; 5.0% damage, 270° angle; 10 BKB, 0 FKB, 110 KBG; 1.0 hitlag, 1.0 SDI
Hitbox ID=0x0 (torso hitbox) active 32-34; 5.0% damage, 361° angle; 10 BKB, 0 FKB, 130 KBG; 1.0 hitlag, 1.0 SDI

There are two hitboxes for every hit. The body hitbox has a 270° angle and very little knockback, serving only to push an opponent above Lucas into the bigger, top priority (meaning if both hitboxes are overlapping, the one with the most priority will beat out the others) hitbox, which has a vertical 90° angle. Basically what the hitboxes are doing is trapping the opponent between each other. This is the reason why dair will have a hard time connecting if you use it while rising, and fail to connect at all if you fall with it.

The 4th hits are angled 270° at the sweet spot under Lucas's feet, and 361° (Sakurai--basically 45° in the air) at the sour spot in his body.

As you can see the move has very little end lag, so if you finish it in the air chances are you'll only get his regular hard landing lag (4 frames) as opposed to his dair landing lag, which is a whopping 24 frames, or about as much lag as air dodging into the ground.

Up air - IASA frame 46, AC window 1, 38>, 12-frame landing lag

-Hitbox ID=0x0 (head) active 7-9; 13.0% damage, 80° angle; 10 BKB, 0 FKB, 100 KBG; 1.1 hitlag, 1.0 SDI

The hitbox is relatively small for an up air (especially when you compare it to the other Mother representative's), but it does 13% damage and hits frame 7, making it a decent combo breaker. Nair hits frame 7, but it has only 1% priority, so it's extremely unreliable when trying to muscle out of combos. Up air will help you escape a Luigi's combos if they're not on-point, nair won't because all of Luigi's aerials completely out-prioritize it due to their damage output. Also, up air has 12 frames of landing lag, as opposed to nair's 13.

Z air - IASA frame 60, 8-frame (22 if used off of an air dodge) landing lag

Hitbox ID=0x0 (snake's head) active 9-12; 4.0% damage, 45° angle; 30 BKB, 0 FKB, 60 KBG; 1.0 hitlag, 1.0 SDI
Hitbox ID=0x0 (snake's head) active 13-19; 2.8% damage, 45° angle; 30 BKB, 0 FKB, 60 KBG; 1.0 hitlag, 1.0 SDI
8-frame start-up, hitting 9-19. Starts strong(ish) 9-12, dealing 4% damage, the stales 13-19 (hitbox size also shrinks slightly) doing only 2.8%. Strong and weak hitboxes both launch at 45°. Not the 45° you get from the Sakurai angle, just straight up 45°, meaning it will always pop the opponent up, even at 0% damage.

http://smashboards.com/attachments/lucas-pkt2-gif.75177/[/IMG]
It's considered a frame 1 move, starting at the explosion when the PK Thunder article collides with Lucas's hurtboxes. Hitboxes go as follows:

-Frame 1: Two large 8% damage hitboxes with 60 base knockback and 110 knockback growth, launching at a 361° (Sakurai) angle. The strong base knockback and decent knockback growth (for the damage it does) makes it a viable kill move at higher percentages, as long as your opponent doesn't get launched into the rest of the hits. Hitbox lasts exactly 1 frame.

-Frame 3: Starts a 3-frame hitbox loop. Frames 1-2 of the loop are composed of two hitboxes, the smaller of which is completely engulfed by the other one. Both hitboxes do 2% damage with a 366° autolink angle (which I denoted with a circle; hitboxes disappear for frame 3. The loop repeats 5 times, meaning it hits frames 3-4, 6-7, 9-10, 12-13, and 15-16 of the overall move.

-Frame 18: Starts another 3-frame loop identical to the first one, but drops the damage to 1.5% and very minimally reduces the size of the hitboxes. The 5 loops hit 18-19, 21-22, 24-25, 27-28, and 30-31.

-Frame 33: 10% damage finisher that launches at a 50° angle. 90 base knockback and 74 knockback growth means it will knock the opponent pretty far even at low percentages, but will still take a while before it starts to kill. The hitbox hits frames 33-34 and is the same size as the sweet spot of his up smash (12 units, which is pretty ****ing big).

The move has the same amount of cooldown that using a regular PK Thunder does (not even counting special fall), but it seems to be cut in half if you slide into the ground, much the way Lucario's Extreme Speed does.

PK Fire - IASA 53; article generated frame 20

Article hitbox active 21-35; 3.0% damage, 80° angle; 50 BKB, 0 FKB, 40 KBG; 1.0 hitlag, 0.0 SDI

Flame hitbox ID=0x0 (flame base) active 1-20; 6.0% damage, 45° angle; 45 BKB, 0 FKB, 97 KBG; 1.0 hitlag, 1.0 SDI
Flame hitbox ID=0x1 (flame...not base) active 1-20; 4.0% damage, 45° angle; 40 BKB, 0 FKB, 97 KBG; 1.0 hitlag, 1.0 SDI

The article explodes on contact doing 3% damage, then the 6% damage flame hitbox hits exactly 1 frame later. That upper 4% damage flame hitbox will never hit unless an opponent runs into the flame after something has already triggered it.

For all combos, we have 7 Test Subjects: Mario, Fox, Pikachu, Sheik, Marth, and Donkey Kong. I am only doing 6 because doing 55 Characters would take entirely way too long. The Reasoning I picked these characters:
Mario: Basic Build for Ness, Lucas, Luigi, Diddy Kong, Olimar, Pac-Man, etc
Fox: Top Tier and very unique fall speed and size
Pikachu: Fit Small characters like Meta Knight, Kirby, Jigglypuff, and Small Miis.
Sheik: Best in the Game, unique fall speed, weight, and size
Marth: Represents the tall characters like Rosalina, Zelda, Pits, Roy, Ryu, etc
Donkey Kong: Represents the heavies like Bowser, King Dedede and Ganondorf.

Down Tilt works on the following character until this Percent at 0% Rage.

Neutral Air Starts comboing right at 0%.

This is when Nair stops working from Short Hops.

Credit to @

JosePollo & @

Kodystri

Character | 0% Rage Sweepspotted | 0% Sourspotted
Jigglypuff | 19% | 48%
Mewtwo | 20% | 50%
Mr. Game & Watch | 20% | 51%
Kirby | 20% | 51%
Rosalina | 21% | 52%
Pikachu | 21% | 52%
Olimar | 21% | 52%
Fox | 21% | 52%
Meta Knight | 21% | 52%
Zero Suit Samus | 21% | 52%
Little Mac | 21% | 53%
Falco | 21% | 53%
Zelda | 22% | 54%
Sheik | 22% | 54%
Peach | 23% | 55%
Smash Shulk |
Marth/Lucina | 23% | 55%
Palutena | 23% | 56%
Duck Hunt | 23% | 56%
Toon Link | 23% | 57%
Diddy Kong | 23% | 57%
Ness | 23% | 57%
Greninja | 23% | 57%
Lucas | 23% | 57%
Sonic | 23% | 57%
Robin | 24% | 57%
Pac-Man | 24% | 57%
Roy | 24% | 57%
Wii Fit Trainer | 24% | 58%
Pit/Dark Pit | 24% | 58%
Villager | 24% | 58%
Luigi | 24% | 58%
Mario/Dr. Mario | 24% | 58%
Lucario | 24% | 59%
Mii (default weight) | 23% | 57%
Mii (1/4 Height, Thin) | 23% | 56%
Shulk | 25% | 60%
Mega Man | 25% | 60%
Ryu | 25% | 60%
Yoshi | 25% | 60%
Link | 25% | 60%
Captain Falcon | 25% | 60%
R.O.B. | 26% | 61%
Wario | 26% | 61%
Ike | 26% | 61%
Bowser Jr. | 24% | 60%
Samus | 26% | 62%
Ganondorf | 27% | 63%
Charizard | 27% | 64%
King Dedede | 28% | 65%
Donkey Kong | 28% | 66%
Bowser | 29% | 68%
Shield Shulk | 52% | 90%

Abbreviations:
L=Killing from the far Left of the stage to the Right Blast Zone
M=Killing from the exact middle of the stage to the Right Blast Zone
R=Killing from the far right of the stage to the Right Blast Zone

Character | 0% Rage | 150% Rage
Jigglypuff
Mewtwo
Mr. Game & Watch
Kirby
Rosalina
Pikachu
Olimar
Fox
Meta Knight
Zero Suit Samus
Little Mac
Falco
Zelda
Sheik
Peach
Smash Shulk
Marth/Lucina
Palutena
Duck Hunt
Toon Link
Diddy Kong
Ness
Greninja
Lucas
Sonic
Robin
Pac-Man
Roy
Wii Fit Trainer
Pit/Dark Pit
Villager
Luigi
Mario/Dr. Mario
Lucario
Mii (Default)
Mii(1/4H, Thin)
Shulk
Mega Man
Ryu
Yoshi
Link
Captain Falcon
R.O.B.
Wario
Ike
Bowser Jr.
Samus
Ganondorf
Charizard
King Dedede
Donkey Kong
Bowser
Shield Shulk

Character | 0% Rage | 150% Rage
Jigglypuff
Mewtwo
Mr. Game & Watch
Kirby
Rosalina
Pikachu
Olimar
Fox
Meta Knight
Zero Suit Samus
Little Mac
Falco
Zelda
Sheik
Peach
Smash Shulk
Marth/Lucina
Palutena
Duck Hunt
Toon Link
Diddy Kong
Ness
Greninja
Lucas
Sonic
Robin
Pac-Man
Roy
Wii Fit Trainer
Pit/Dark Pit
Villager
Luigi
Mario/Dr. Mario
Lucario
Mii (Default)
Mii(1/4H, Thin)
Shulk
Mega Man
Ryu
Yoshi
Link
Captain Falcon
R.O.B.
Wario
Ike
Bowser Jr.
Samus
Ganondorf
Charizard
King Dedede
Donkey Kong
Bowser
Shield Shulk

Character | 0% Rage | 150% Rage
Jigglypuff
Mewtwo
Mr. Game & Watch
Kirby
Rosalina
Pikachu
Olimar
Fox
Meta Knight
Zero Suit Samus
Little Mac
Falco
Zelda
Sheik
Peach
Smash Shulk
Marth/Lucina
Palutena
Duck Hunt
Toon Link
Diddy Kong
Ness
Greninja
Lucas
Sonic
Robin
Pac-Man
Roy
Wii Fit Trainer
Pit/Dark Pit
Villager
Luigi
Mario/Dr. Mario
Lucario
Mii (Default)
Mii(1/4H, Thin)
Shulk
Mega Man
Ryu
Yoshi
Link
Captain Falcon
R.O.B.
Wario
Ike
Bowser Jr.
Samus
Ganondorf
Charizard
King Dedede
Donkey Kong
Bowser
Shield Shulk

L=Killing from the far Left of the stage to the Right Blast Zone
M=Killing from the exact middle of the stage to the Right Blast Zone
R=Killing from the far right of the stage to the Right Blast Zone

Character | 0% RageL | 150% RageL | 0% RageM | 150% RageM | 0% RageR | 150% RageR
Jigglypuff
Mewtwo
Mr. Game & Watch
Kirby
Rosalina
Pikachu
Olimar
Fox
Meta Knight
Zero Suit Samus
Little Mac
Falco
Zelda
Sheik
Peach
Smash Shulk
Marth/Lucina
Palutena
Duck Hunt
Toon Link
Diddy Kong
Ness
Greninja
Lucas
Sonic
Robin
Pac-Man
Roy
Wii Fit Trainer
Pit/Dark Pit
Villager
Luigi
Mario/Dr. Mario
Lucario
Mii (Default)
Mii(1/4H, Thin)
Shulk
Mega Man
Ryu
Yoshi
Link
Captain Falcon
R.O.B.
Wario
Ike
Bowser Jr.
Samus
Ganondorf
Charizard
King Dedede
Donkey Kong
Bowser
Shield Shulk

Character | Move | Heal Percent

Bowser Jr. | N/A | N/A

Bowser |

Neutral B 1%

|

Neutral B 7%

Captain Falcon | N/A | N/A

Charizard

Dark Pit |

Neutral B
- 3% No Charge
- 9% Fully Charged

|

Neutral B
- 9% No Charge
- 25% Fully Charged

King Dedede |

Up B (Stars) 5%

|

Up B 13%

Diddy Kong |

Up B 18%

|

Up B 30%

Donkey Kong | N/A | N/A

Dr. Mario | N/A | N/A

Duck Hunt

Falco

Fox

Ganondorf | N/A | N/A

Mr Game and Watch | N/A | N/A

Greninja | N/A | N/A

Ike | N/A | N/A

Jigglypuff | N/A | N/A

Kirby |

Final Cutter 6%(The Slash after Kirby lands

|

Final Cutter 13%

Little Mac | N/A | N/A

Link |

Bomb
- Bomb explosion on Ground
- Bomb Hitting Lucas 5%

|

Bomb
- Bomb explosion on Ground 20%
- Bomb Hitting Lucas 12.5%

Lucario

Claus |

PK Freeze
- Minimum 9%
- Maximum 21%
PK Fire 9%
PK Thunder 3%

|

PK Freeze
- Minimum 24%
- Maximum 30%
PK Fire 6%
PK Thunder 6%

Lucina | N/A | N/A

Luigi |

Neutral B
- 6% Point Blank
- 5% Max Range

|

Neutral B
- 16% Point Blank
- 14% Max Range

Mario |

Neutral B
- 5% Point Blank
- 4% Max Range

|

Neutral B
- 14% Point Blank
- 9% Max Range

Marth | N/A | N/A

Mega Man |

Lemons/Pellets 2%
Side Smash 12%-18%
Side Special 8%

|

Lemons/Pellets 5.25%
Side Smash 30%
Side Special 3%

Meta Knight | N/A | N/A

Mewtwo |

Shadow Ball
- Uncharged 3%
- Charged 26%

|

Shadow Ball
- Uncharged 6%
- Charged 30%

Mii Brawler | N/A | N/A

Mii Gunner

Mii Swordfighter

Ness |

PK Fire ~20%
PK Thunder 8%
PK Flash
- uncharged 9%
- Fully Charged 37%

|

PK Fire 10.5%
PK Thunder 19%(21% if inside Ness)
PK Flash
- uncharged 24%
- Fully Charged 30%

Palutena |

Autoreticle 9%

|

Autoreticle 23%

PacMan | N/A | N/A

Peach

Pikachu |

Thunder 8%
Thunder Jolt
- Close Range 6%
- Max Distance 4%

|

Thunder 42%
Thunder Jolt
- Close Range 16%
- Max Distance 10.5%

Pit |

Neutral B
- 3% No Charge
- 9% Fully Charged

|

Neutral B
- 9% No Charge
- 23% Fully Charged

ROB |

Neutral B
- Uncharged 4%
- Fully Charged 11%

|

Neutral B
- Uncharged 12%
- Fully Charged 27%

Robin |

Neutral B
- Thunder 3%
- ElThunder 9%
- Arc Thunder 10%
- Thoron 10-17%
ArcFire 4%-12%
Elwind
- First Hit 7%
- Second Hit 4%

|

Neutral B
- Thunder 8%
- ElThunder 24%
- Arc Thunder 6%
- Thoron 7%
ArcFire 2%
Elwind(32% overall)
- First Hit 19%
- Second Hit 14%

Rosalina and Luma | N/A w/o Customs | N/A w/o Customs

Roy

Ryu

Samus |

Charge shot
- Uncharged 3%
- Charged 26%
Down B 9%

|

Charge shot
- Uncharged 6%
- Charged 30%
Down B 14%

Sheik |

Vanish 12%
Side B 14%

|

Vanish 30
Side B 30%

Shulk | N/A | N/A

Sonic | N/A | N/A

Toon Link |

Bomb 4%

|

Bomb 10%(if hits you)-16%(if hits ground)

Villager |

Lloyd Rocket 12%

|

Lloyd Rocket 30%

Wario | N/A | N/A

Wii Fit Trainer |

Sun Salutation
- Uncharged 5%
- Fully Charged 18%

|

Sun Salutation
- Uncharged 13%
- Fully Charged 30%

Yoshi |

Yoshi's Bomb Star 4%

|

Yoshi's Bomb Star 10.5%

Zelda |

Din's Fire
- Minimum 5%
- Maximum 14%

|

Din's Fire
- Minimum 18.5%
- Maximum 30%

Zero Suit Samus |

Neutral B Paralyzer
- Uncharged 4%
- Fully Charged 7%
Down Smash
- Uncharged 8%
- Fully Charged 11%

|

Neutral B Paralyzer
- Uncharged 4%
- Fully Charged 7%
Down Smash
- Uncharged 21%
- Fully Charged 30%

Because of the new patch, I decided to add this option in.

Note this is taken from Kurogane Hammer's Frame Data for Lucas and using rough estimates for frame data. This is assume you used the move right in front of them and the Landing/Lag Part applies. Aerials are used as the whatever way you can act first such as autocancels or landing immediately
FAF=First Actionable Frame
LL=Landing Lag
AC=AutoCancel

Whatever makes you act out the fastest between Landing Lag and AC will be used.

Note this may be inaccurate because of the working discovery on how Shield Stun works. I am just giving a basis of what to be expected from this. All of this was done from math. Later, this will be fixed to be better

.

Move | Start-Up | FAF/LL/AC | Shield Stun | Frame Advantage(Drop) | Frame Advantage(OoS)
Jab 1 | 2-4 | 20 | 3 | -8 | -15
Jab 2 | 3-5 | 20 | 3 | -7 | -14
Jab 3 | 6-8 | 30 | 4 | -13 | -20
Forward Tilt (SourSpot) | 7-8 | 26 | 6 | -6 | -13
Forward Tilt(Sweepspot) | 7-8 | 26 | 8 | -4 | -11
Down Tilt | 3-4 | 16 | 3 | -3 | -10
Up Tilt
Forward Smash | 14-15 | 47 | 10 | -16 | -23
Down Smash (1) | 20-21 | 64 | 11 | -26 | -33
Down Smash (2) | 29-30 | 64 | 10 | -18 | -25
Down Smash (3) | 39-40 | 64 | 8 | - 10 | -17
Up Smash
Neutral Air
Neutral Air(Final Hit) | 26 | 13 | 4 | 0 | -7
Forward Air(Sourspot)
Forward Air(SweepSpot) | 9-10 | 15(LL) | 8 | 0 | -7
Back Air(12%) | 15-20 | 15(LL) | 8 | 0 | -7
Back Air(9%)
Down Air
Down Air (4) | 39-40 | 47(AC) | 4 | +3 | -4
Up Air | 7-9 | 12(LL) | 9 | +4 | -3
Zair (4%) | 9-12 | ??? | 4 |
Zair (2%)
PK Fire | 21-35 | 53 | 3 | -22 | -29
PK Freeze(21%) | ???? | 27 Lag | 14 | -6 | -13
PSI Magnet | 17 | 36 | 6 | -6 | -13

[/spoiler]

Kodystri · Sep 1, 2015

Reserved just incase something happens

Kodystri · Sep 1, 2015

To Do List

Add Kill percents of Up Throw
Add What recoveries is hit by Down Smash
Add PSI Magnet healing chart.

Change List

September 1st, 2015

Added Table of Contents including Kill Percents, Combos, Frame Data, and more!
Added Tables to the Kill Percents

September 2nd, 2015

Removed Jab, Down Tilt, Down Throw, Nair, and Dair from Kill Moves at number 5 in the Table of Contents.
Remove all the stages except Smashville to reduce some of the lag as I am not working on atm.
Added Punish Options to the Table of Contents

September 7th, 2015

Reorganized Table of Contents
Added Percent it takes for Fair to knock people over.

September 8th, 2015

Added Up Throw Kill percent for most characters.
Added PSI Magnet Healing Percentages

September 18th, 2015

Reformatted the Table of Contents
Separated Vertical and Horizontal Kill percent
Added Utilt kill percents for half of the cast with no rage.

Kodystri · Sep 1, 2015

Lucas Research Credits

Admin: @

Kodystri

Helpers
UltraZap

Credits:
Shoutouts to @NekoJubei for letting me use his chart! <3

If you want to help me, please fill the following.

1. Do you have Skype and what is your Skype name??(We will be communicating solely through this)
2. How experience are you with Lucas?
3. How dedicated are you to Lucas?
4. How much effort are you planning on putting into helping?
5. Are you able to communicate fairly common?
6. Are you able to understand and do strict instructions(For DI Purposes, kind of has to be strict) and redo things that are messed up?

Also, remember, I am very laidback and so if you do join the team, just do what you can, but if you call dibs on something, please please try to dedicate time to doing it. If you don't think you can finish that part in a timely manner or going to vacation soon, then don't call dibs on something. Also, remember, I have to final say in everything as this is my thread, but I would love new ideas to everything!

____________________________________

For Kill Percents Make sure you do the following

1. Using the Best DI Possible to live
2. SDing after every kill attempt so the moves stays Fresh.
3. Not In Training Mode
4. If it has a sour or sweepspot, treat it as two completely different things.
5. Use the charts provided under "Vertical Kill Percents of Moves" or "Horizontal Kill Percent of Moves". And then put | after each character name and after each different Percent so I can just copy and paste instead of having to type everything in it(So it would make if faster for things to get done!) Also, please don't put it as a table for now.
6. I will probably test a few to just make everything is correct. If I find things that are incorrect/inconsistent, I will ask you to redo them. I am a very paranoid person that wants everything right.

So use either two of these charts:

Example
Character | 0% Rage | 150% Rage
Jigglypuff | 5% | -5%

would appear as

Character | 0% Rage | 150% Rage
Jigglypuff | 5% | -5%

Vertical Kill Percents
Character | 0% Rage | 150% Rage
Jigglypuff
Mewtwo
Mr. Game & Watch
Kirby
Rosalina
Pikachu
Olimar
Fox
Meta Knight
Zero Suit Samus
Little Mac
Falco
Zelda
Sheik
Peach
Smash Shulk
Marth/Lucina
Palutena
Duck Hunt
Toon Link
Diddy Kong
Ness
Greninja
Lucas
Sonic
Robin
Pac-Man
Roy
Wii Fit Trainer
Pit/Dark Pit
Villager
Luigi
Mario/Dr. Mario
Lucario
Mii (Default)
Mii(1/4H, Thin)
Shulk
Mega Man
Ryu
Yoshi
Link
Captain Falcon
R.O.B.
Wario
Ike
Bowser Jr.
Samus
Ganondorf
Charizard
King Dedede
Donkey Kong
Bowser
Shield Shulk

Or

Horizontal Kill Percent
Character | 0% RageL | 150% RageL | 0% RageM | 150% RageM | 0% RageR | 150% RageR
Jigglypuff
Mewtwo
Mr. Game & Watch
Kirby
Rosalina
Pikachu
Olimar
Fox
Meta Knight
Zero Suit Samus
Little Mac
Falco
Zelda
Sheik
Peach
Smash Shulk
Marth/Lucina
Palutena
Duck Hunt
Toon Link
Diddy Kong
Ness
Greninja
Lucas
Sonic
Robin
Pac-Man
Roy
Wii Fit Trainer
Pit/Dark Pit
Villager
Luigi
Mario/Dr. Mario
Lucario
Mii (Default)
Mii(1/4H, Thin)
Shulk
Mega Man
Ryu
Yoshi
Link
Captain Falcon
R.O.B.
Wario
Ike
Bowser Jr.
Samus
Ganondorf
Charizard
King Dedede
Donkey Kong
Bowser
Shield Shulk

Yaya Haider · Sep 1, 2015

Awesome this is so great for his Meta! Since i think that Lucas's game is kinda underdeveloped.

Kodystri · Sep 1, 2015

Yup, I am going to try my best. It would help once I make this, you can help me point out things i missed.

Kodystri · Sep 1, 2015

NVM figured it out

Yaya Haider · Sep 1, 2015

Kodystri said:
Yup, I am going to try my best. It would help once I make this, you can help me point out things i missed.

All right, well if you need help then ask. I'll try my best.

Though i might be pretty busy on the week , since school. I'm sure you'll do a great job though and probably won't need me, i hear you're one of the best Ness mains on Smashboards, so you can do it.

Kodystri · Sep 1, 2015

If you guys have complaints/any way to improve this, let me know <3. I am going to prioritize Ledge Coverage options and kill percent on Smashville as Smashville is the most popular stage.

MrWhYYZ · Sep 2, 2015

For smashville (You'll probably know this) the ceiling is the same height as FD. Only platform stuff is important.
Also I wanna help, I already wanted to see If I could find a mathmatical function to calculate any rage percentage. And seeing how much you want that rage written down, if I can find it it should safe you days of labbing.

KaptenFullkorn · Sep 2, 2015

I've been waiting to see this kind of post! Starting with Ledge coverage options will be great, any chance covering ledge getup options? Idk why but Lucas really made me struggle with getting up safe from the ledge.

Kodystri · Sep 2, 2015

I am adding a changelist for people's convenience

K3H · Sep 4, 2015

Do you think it'd be a good idea to include matchup specific details in this thread too? I've got some in mind that might be helpful.

Kodystri · Sep 5, 2015

Was going to, but i wont describe how to win MUs. I will work on it next week. School kicking me atm.

JosePollo · Sep 6, 2015

This looks like something I'd be interested in helping out with. I, too, am looking to better my Lucas play overall just help people understand Lucas better so he can finally start seeing more tournament usage and exposure, in general.

1. Yes. Poi Wong
2. I'd say I'm pretty decent at the things Lucas can specifically do, just need to hone my general Smash Bros. skills more.
3. Like I said, I think Lucas has a good chance of being considered a high tier (A-tier, at the least) character, and I want to show it through tournament results, first and foremost.
4. I work 5 days a week, 7-or-so hours a day, so nothing too bad, but it's usually mid-day to night or graveyard shifts, but outside of that I don't really have a life so... I'm pretty much open outside of work.
5. Kind of a weirdly worded question, but I have a cellphone (unlimited talk/text), decent Internet, and an e-mail account. Also a Smashboards account. And a Skype.
6. Err... yeah, I guess. If it's for the sake of science.
7. Umm... 7? What...?

Kodystri · Sep 6, 2015

I meant via skype lol. My bad. I will word it better later. And dont worry I am very laidback <3

JosePollo · Sep 6, 2015

Oh. Well, whatever. It's there now lol.

I already have the earliest percentages at which a rage-less f-air (sweet-spotted and sour-spotted) starts causing knockdown, since it seemed like the simplest thing to start with. One percentage less than what is listed only causes the character to stumble backwards slightly without actually leaving the floor.

...29% sweet-spotted, 68% sour-spotted for Bowser
...24% sweet-spotted, 60% sour-spotted for Bowser Jr.
...25% sweet-spotted, 60% sour-spotted for Captain Falcon
...27% sweet-spotted, 64% sour-spotted for Charizard
...24% sweet-spotted, 58% sour-spotted for Dark Pit
...23% sweet-spotted, 57% sour-spotted for Diddy Kong
...28% sweet-spotted, 66% sour-spotted for Donkey Kong
...24% sweet-spotted, 58% sour-spotted for Dr. Mario
...23% sweet-spotted, 56% sour-spotted for Duck Hunt
...21% sweet-spotted, 53% sour-spotted for Falco
...21% sweet-spotted, 52% sour-spotted for Fox
...27% sweet-spotted, 63% sour-spotted for Ganondorf
...23% sweet-spotted, 57% sour-spotted for Greninja
...26% sweet-spotted, 61% sour-spotted for Ike
...19% sweet-spotted, 48% sour-spotted for Jigglypuff
...28% sweet-spotted, 65% sour-spotted for King Dedede
...20% sweet-spotted, 51% sour-spotted for Kirby
...25% sweet-spotted, 60% sour-spotted for Link
...21% sweet-spotted, 53% sour-spotted for Little Mac
...24% sweet-spotted, 59% sour-spotted for Lucario
...23% sweet-spotted, 57% sour-spotted for Lucas
...23% sweet-spotted, 56% sour-spotted for Lucina
...24% sweet-spotted, 58% sour-spotted for Luigi
...24% sweet-spotted, 58% sour-spotted for Mario
...23% sweet-spotted, 56% sour-spotted for Marth
...21% sweet-spotted, 52% sour-spotted for Meta Knight
...25% sweet-spotted, 60% sour-spotted for Mega Man
...20% sweet-spotted, 50% sour-spotted for Mewtwo
...20% sweet-spotted, 51% sour-spotted for Mr. Game & Watch
...23% sweet-spotted, 57% sour-spotted for Ness
...21% sweet-spotted, 52% sour-spotted for Olimar
...24% sweet-spotted, 57% sour-spotted for Pac-Man
...23% sweet-spotted, 56% sour-spotted for Palutena
...23% sweet-spotted, 55% sour-spotted for Peach
...21% sweet-spotted, 52% sour-spotted for Pikachu
...24% sweet-spotted, 58% sour-spotted for Pit
...26% sweet-spotted, 61% sour-spotted for R.O.B.
...24% sweet-spotted, 57% sour-spotted for Robin
...21% sweet-spotted, 52% sour-spotted for Rosalina
...24% sweet-spotted, 57% sour-spotted for Roy
...25% sweet-spotted, 60% sour-spotted for Ryu
...26% sweet-spotted, 62% sour-spotted for Samus
...22% sweet-spotted, 54% sour-spotted for Sheik
...25% sweet-spotted, 60% sour-spotted for Shulk
...23% sweet-spotted, 57% sour-spotted for Sonic
...23% sweet-spotted, 57% sour-spotted for Toon Link
...24% sweet-spotted, 58% sour-spotted for Villager
...26% sweet-spotted, 61% sour-spotted for Wario
...24% sweet-spotted, 58% sour-spotted for Wii Fit Trainer
...25% sweet-spotted, 60% sour-spotted for Yoshi
...22% sweet-spotted, 54% sour-spotted for Zelda
...21% sweet-spotted, 53% sour-spotted for Zero Suit Samus

Do you want me to start working on throw kill percentages?

Kodystri · Sep 6, 2015

JosePollo said:
Oh. Well, whatever. It's there now lol.

I already have the earliest percentages at which a rage-less f-air (sweet-spotted and sour-spotted) starts causing knockdown, since it seemed like the simplest thing to start with. One percentage less than what is listed only causes the character to stumble backwards slightly without actually leaving the floor.

...29% sweet-spotted, 68% sour-spotted for Bowser
...24% sweet-spotted, 60% sour-spotted for Bowser Jr.
...25% sweet-spotted, 60% sour-spotted for Captain Falcon
...27% sweet-spotted, 64% sour-spotted for Charizard
...24% sweet-spotted, 58% sour-spotted for Dark Pit
...23% sweet-spotted, 57% sour-spotted for Diddy Kong
...28% sweet-spotted, 66% sour-spotted for Donkey Kong
...24% sweet-spotted, 58% sour-spotted for Dr. Mario
...23% sweet-spotted, 56% sour-spotted for Duck Hunt
...21% sweet-spotted, 53% sour-spotted for Falco
...21% sweet-spotted, 52% sour-spotted for Fox
...27% sweet-spotted, 63% sour-spotted for Ganondorf
...23% sweet-spotted, 57% sour-spotted for Greninja
...26% sweet-spotted, 61% sour-spotted for Ike
...19% sweet-spotted, 48% sour-spotted for Jigglypuff
...28% sweet-spotted, 65% sour-spotted for King Dedede
...20% sweet-spotted, 51% sour-spotted for Kirby
...25% sweet-spotted, 60% sour-spotted for Link
...21% sweet-spotted, 53% sour-spotted for Little Mac
...24% sweet-spotted, 59% sour-spotted for Lucario
...23% sweet-spotted, 57% sour-spotted for Lucas
...23% sweet-spotted, 56% sour-spotted for Lucina
...24% sweet-spotted, 58% sour-spotted for Luigi
...24% sweet-spotted, 58% sour-spotted for Mario
...23% sweet-spotted, 56% sour-spotted for Marth
...21% sweet-spotted, 52% sour-spotted for Meta Knight
...25% sweet-spotted, 60% sour-spotted for Mega Man
...20% sweet-spotted, 50% sour-spotted for Mewtwo
...20% sweet-spotted, 51% sour-spotted for Mr. Game & Watch
...23% sweet-spotted, 57% sour-spotted for Ness
...21% sweet-spotted, 52% sour-spotted for Olimar
...24% sweet-spotted, 57% sour-spotted for Pac-Man
...23% sweet-spotted, 56% sour-spotted for Palutena
...23% sweet-spotted, 55% sour-spotted for Peach
...21% sweet-spotted, 52% sour-spotted for Pikachu
...24% sweet-spotted, 58% sour-spotted for Pit
...26% sweet-spotted, 61% sour-spotted for R.O.B.
...24% sweet-spotted, 57% sour-spotted for Robin
...21% sweet-spotted, 52% sour-spotted for Rosalina
...24% sweet-spotted, 57% sour-spotted for Roy
...25% sweet-spotted, 60% sour-spotted for Ryu
...26% sweet-spotted, 62% sour-spotted for Samus
...22% sweet-spotted, 54% sour-spotted for Sheik
...25% sweet-spotted, 60% sour-spotted for Shulk
...23% sweet-spotted, 57% sour-spotted for Sonic
...23% sweet-spotted, 57% sour-spotted for Toon Link
...24% sweet-spotted, 58% sour-spotted for Villager
...26% sweet-spotted, 61% sour-spotted for Wario
...24% sweet-spotted, 58% sour-spotted for Wii Fit Trainer
...25% sweet-spotted, 60% sour-spotted for Yoshi
...22% sweet-spotted, 54% sour-spotted for Zelda
...21% sweet-spotted, 53% sour-spotted for Zero Suit Samus

Do you want me to start working on throw kill percentages?

This was tested out of training mode right? If so you are awesome <3

And sure why not

. i do have uthrow kill percent somewhere though.

Hold on it actually. Be back tomorrow.

JosePollo · Sep 7, 2015

Kodystri said:
This was tested out of training mode right? If so you are awesome <3

And sure why not . i do have uthrow kill percent somewhere though.

Hold on it actually. Be back tomorrow.

Yes, so no rage. That means any amount of rage will cause the moves to knock down at earlier percentages.

If you already have up throw, then I'll start working on back/forward throw when I'm off tomorrow.

Kodystri · Sep 7, 2015

JosePollo said:
Yes, so no rage. That means any amount of rage will cause the moves to knock down at earlier percentages.

If you already have up throw, then I'll start working on back/forward throw when I'm off tomorrow.

Can you add SWS | WV Kodystri on skype? Too many Poi Wongs

MrWhYYZ · Sep 9, 2015

For the people that wondered if I succeeded in creating a formula for Up-throw. I did, but i isn't as accurate as a wanted because even though the percentages are rounded up(Or down) in game, they still count the decimals even though you can't see them.
For mario it's:
Rage percentage=0,00002x^3-0.0049x^2+0.068x+145
Might be off by 1.
This might be the universal formula for Up-throw but I need to test at least one other character before I can make that assumption.

Kodystri · Sep 9, 2015

MrWhYYZ said:
For the people that wondered if I succeeded in creating a formula for Up-throw. I did, but i isn't as accurate as a wanted because even though the percentages are rounded up(Or down) in game, they still count the decimals even though you can't see them.
For mario it's:
Rage percentage=0,00002x^3-0.0049x^2+0.068x+145
Might be off by 1.
This might be the universal formula for Up-throw but I need to test at least one other character before I can make that assumption.

O_o

JosePollo · Sep 9, 2015

MrWhYYZ said:
For the people that wondered if I succeeded in creating a formula for Up-throw. I did, but i isn't as accurate as a wanted because even though the percentages are rounded up(Or down) in game, they still count the decimals even though you can't see them.
For mario it's:
Rage percentage=0,00002x^3-0.0049x^2+0.068x+145
Might be off by 1.
This might be the universal formula for Up-throw but I need to test at least one other character before I can make that assumption.

Not quite sure what I'm looking at here. Mind giving me some background/explanation?

Also, Kodystri, I see you've started on kill moves. Are you including kill percentages with optimal DI? Lucas's forward and back throws have easy angles to DI (making it ridiculously easy to survive up to some pretty high percentages--Jigglypuff survives forward throw up to like 140% from the ledge on BF) , so I figured I might as well.

Kodystri · Sep 9, 2015

JosePollo said:
Not quite sure what I'm looking at here. Mind giving me some background/explanation?

Also, Kodystri, I see you've started on kill moves. Are you including kill percentages with optimal DI? Lucas's forward and back throws have easy angles to DI (making it ridiculously easy to survive up to some pretty high percentages--Jigglypuff survives forward throw up to like 140% from the ledge on BF) , so I figured I might as well.

Yes all of it is the best possible DI. Whatever I did, for example, Jigglypuff is 116%. There was no way I could make Jigglypuff survive at 116% while there was a way to make her survive at 115%.

JosePollo · Sep 10, 2015

Alright, I was getting pissed off last night collecting forward throw kill percentage data with optimal DI for 50+ characters on 7 legal stages, so I took some time to cool off and did these ****ty gifs that kinda show the positioning of the hitboxes on some of his attacks.

Three hitboxes on each hit, and they are prioritized from innermost to outermost, so if the opponent's hurtboxes overlap any two or more hitboxes, he'll be hit by the one closest to Lucas's body. That innermost hitbox explains why Lucas seems to be able to hit foes behind him.

Those two hitboxes on the ground hit frame 4, then the main two hitboxes hit 3 frames later (frame 7). At frame 11, the bottom hitbox disappears and the top hitbox shrinks in size, becoming the late hitbox and switching from 93°-angle to 90°. The late hitbox lasts until frame 15, no longer active frame 16.

Frames 1-4 are green for invincibility. The two large hitboxes on either side of Lucas hit frame 28, reaching pretty deep under the stage, allowing up smash to hit characters on the ledge. Their 110° pulls them into the strongest hitbox of the move at frame 30. Frame 33 introduces a slightly smaller, slightly weaker hitbox that is overlapped by the sweetspot. The sweetspot disappears one frame later (34), then the pattern repeats every 5 frames: 38, 43, then 48. Each consecutive hitbox is smaller, and placed higher than the last. Frames 48-53 only hit aerial opponents, so someone under the effects of a Super Mushroom can be standing in that final hitbox and won't be affected until he decides to jump (although that scenario happening is pretty much impossible since it's only a 4-frame window between when the second-to-last hitbox overlaps the final hitbox and the final hitbox disappears). EDIT: Made a much cleaner gif that also illustrates the start-up invincibility and correctly prioritizes and more accurately positions each hitbox.

Kodystri · Sep 10, 2015

JosePollo said:
Alright, I was getting pissed off last night collecting forward throw kill percentage data with optimal DI for 50+ characters on 7 legal stages, so I took some time to cool off and did these ****ty gifs that kinda show the positioning of the hitboxes on some of his attacks.

View attachment 72710
Three hitboxes on each hit, and they are prioritized from innermost to outermost, so if the opponent's hurtboxes overlap any two or more hitboxes, he'll be hit by the one closest to Lucas's body. That innermost hitbox explains why Lucas seems to be able to hit foes behind him.

View attachment 72711
Those two hitboxes on the ground hit frame 4, then the main two hitboxes hit 3 frames later (frame 7). At frame 11, the bottom hitbox disappears and the top hitbox shrinks in size, becoming the late hitbox and switching from 93°-angle to 90°. The late hitbox lasts until frame 15, no longer active frame 16.

View attachment 72712
Frames 1-4 are blue for invincibility. The two large hitboxes on either side of Lucas hit frame 28, reaching pretty deep under the stage, allowing up smash to hit characters on the ledge. Their 110° pulls them into the strongest hitbox of the move at frame 30. Frame 33 introduces a slightly smaller, slightly weaker hitbox that is overlapped by the sweetspot. The sweetspot disappears one frame later (34), then the pattern repeats every 5 frames: 38, 43, then 48. Each consecutive hitbox is smaller, and placed higher than the last. Frames 48-53 only hit aerial opponents, so someone under the effects of a Super Mushroom can be standing in that final hitbox and won't be affected until he decides to jump (although that scenario happening is pretty much impossible since it's only a 4-frame window between when the second-to-last hitbox overlaps the final hitbox and the final hitbox disappears). Anyway, up smash is a christmas tree of death, and this gif is pretty terrible.

Ooh woow nice i will add that later when I have ton of free time today. We really only need to get the kill percents of Forward Throw and Back Throw at the ledge because Uthrow will become much more optimal and I will put a picture somewhere on when to start using Up Throw instead of Back Throw/Forward Throw.

KaptenFullkorn · Sep 10, 2015

JosePollo I love your research on the hitboxes, these and that clarification on B-air is solid gold. I hope to see more as time goes on!

JosePollo · Sep 10, 2015

Kodystri said:
Ooh woow nice i will add that later when I have ton of free time today. We really only need to get the kill percents of Forward Throw and Back Throw at the ledge because Uthrow will become much more optimal and I will put a picture somewhere on when to start using Up Throw instead of Back Throw/Forward Throw.

Yeah I'm actually finding that forward throw's 50° launch angle makes it extremely DI'able to the point where most of the time you can still kill earlier using up throw at any point on the stage than you would using forward throw at the ledge. It's pretty unreliable for getting kills, especially on Dreamland.

KaptenFullkorn said:
JosePollo I love your research on the hitboxes, these and that clarification on B-air is solid gold. I hope to see more as time goes on!

I am happy to be of service

Jellyfish4102 · Sep 10, 2015

Can you not heal of off the explosion of

up b or down b?

Kodystri · Sep 10, 2015

Jellyfish4102 said:
Can you not heal of off the explosion of up b or down b?

Ii will double check!

Kodystri · Sep 10, 2015

JosePollo said:
Yeah I'm actually finding that forward throw's 50° launch angle makes it extremely DI'able to the point where most of the time you can still kill earlier using up throw at any point on the stage than you would using forward throw at the ledge. It's pretty unreliable for getting kills, especially on Dreamland.

I am happy to be of service

Yeah the Fthrow is stupid. The only reason to use it is DI mix ups. Hm.

Also amazing work so far. Should be able to work on this a good bit today.

MrWhYYZ · Sep 10, 2015

JosePollo said:
Not quite sure what I'm looking at here. Mind giving me some background/explanation?

Sure, I'll explain it a bit more

y=0,00002x^3-0.0049x^2+0.068x+145
Using this formula you can calculate when Up-throw is going to kill mario while he's DI'ing the right direction.
x=your own percentage
y=Percentage up-throw will kill.

Example 1

0,00002*0^3-0.0049*0^2+0.068*0+145
0-0+0+145=145
This is the basic example, Mario dies at 145% if Lucas has 0%.

Example 2

0.00002*100^3-0.0049*100^2+0.068*100+145
20-49+6.8+145=122.8
In this example, Mario dies around 123% if Lucas has 100%

Example 3

0.00002*100^3-0.0049*100^2+0.068*100+145
20-49+6.8+145

0.00002*72^3-0.0049*72^2+0.068*72+145
7.46496-25.4016+4.896+145=131.95936
In this example, Mario dies around 132% if Lucas has 72%

It's not 100% accurate because a lot of moves have hidden decimal damage. (Which grinds my gears a lot) But the rule of thumb is -2,2% for every 10% damage of rage.

Brozoco · Sep 10, 2015

Kodystri said:
Lucas Research Credits

Admin: @ Kodystri

Helpers
UltraZap

Credits:
Shoutouts to @NekoJubei for letting me use his chart! <3

If you want to help me, please fill the following.

1. Do you have Skype and what is your Skype name??(We will be communicating solely through this)
2. How experience are you with Lucas?
3. How dedicated are you to Lucas?
4. How much effort are you planning on putting into helping?
5. Are you able to communicate fairly common?
6. Are you able to understand and do strict instructions(For DI Purposes, kind of has to be strict) and redo things that are messed up?

Also, remember, I am very laidback and so if you do join the team, just do what you can, but if you call dibs on something, please please try to dedicate time to doing it. If you don't think you can finish that part in a timely manner or going to vacation soon, then don't call dibs on something. Also, remember, I have to final say in everything as this is my thread, but I would love new ideas to everything!

1. You have me added.
2. 4 months worth of dedication to Lucas.
3. Pretty darn loyal if I say so myself.
4. A lot.
5. Yep.
6. Yes, sir.

JosePollo · Sep 11, 2015

MrWhYYZ said:
y=0,00002x^3-0.0049x^2+0.068x+145
Using this formula you can calculate when Up-throw is going to kill mario while he's DI'ing the right direction.
x=your own percentage
y=Percentage up-throw will kill.

Example 1

0,00002*0^3-0.0049*0^2+0.068*0+145
0-0+0+145=145
This is the basic example, Mario dies at 145% if Lucas has 0%.

Example 2

0.00002*100^3-0.0049*100^2+0.068*100+145
20-49+6.8+145=122.8
In this example, Mario dies around 123% if Lucas has 100%

Example 3

0.00002*100^3-0.0049*100^2+0.068*100+145
20-49+6.8+145

0.00002*72^3-0.0049*72^2+0.068*72+145
7.46496-25.4016+4.896+145=131.95936
In this example, Mario dies around 132% if Lucas has 72%

It's not 100% accurate because a lot of moves have hidden decimal damage. (Which grinds my gears a lot) But the rule of thumb is -2,2% for every 10% damage of rage.

What stage are we talking about here? Or can the formula be used for any stage? And that's only for Mario?

MrWhYYZ · Sep 11, 2015

JosePollo said:
What stage are we talking about here? Or can the formula be used for any stage? And that's only for Mario?

Right now, just FD and just Mario. But I'm assuming it's universal and should work on all stages. Hieght of the ceiling has nothing to do with the killing power of the throw But it needs more testing. And I'm lazy.

The 0ne · Sep 13, 2015

What's up everyone? The 0ne here. I'm glad that somebody put in the effort to make a thread like this a reality. I think Lucas is one of those characters that deserves a ton of research and development. I'll do whatever I can to advance the Lucas metagame.
I've already created a video thread explaining follow ups out of his zair, so check that out if you want. Also, in the Ness boards, there is a highly detailed thread that I contributed to along with the help of many other dedicated Ness/Lucas/Game and Watch players showing every move they can absorb. If you didn't know, all of the energy projectile-absorbing characters can absorb the same things. It doesn't have Lucas's heal percentages, but it will allow you to more easily find which moves to test.
http://smashboards.com/threads/psi-magnet-reference-guide.373370/

Anyway, the questionnaire.

1. Yep, the_0ne_ssb
2. Played my my boy since Brawl, and nonstop since he came out for Smash 4.
3. Lucas is my last name. Not kidding.
4. A ton. I've already made plenty of threads and I love just sitting in Training and doing research for some reason.
5. Sure, mostly.
6. Definitely.

Kodystri · Sep 14, 2015

Sorry Guys, I am really busy this week as I need to work on homework/studying. After Thursday, I should be able to keep working on this, starting on all Vertical kill percents of moves on SV/FD/Lylat/Dreamland 64.

Kodystri · Sep 14, 2015

The 0ne said:
What's up everyone? The 0ne here. I'm glad that somebody put in the effort to make a thread like this a reality. I think Lucas is one of those characters that deserves a ton of research and development. I'll do whatever I can to advance the Lucas metagame.
I've already created a video thread explaining follow ups out of his zair, so check that out if you want. Also, in the Ness boards, there is a highly detailed thread that I contributed to along with the help of many other dedicated Ness/Lucas/Game and Watch players showing every move they can absorb. If you didn't know, all of the energy projectile-absorbing characters can absorb the same things. It doesn't have Lucas's heal percentages, but it will allow you to more easily find which moves to test.
http://smashboards.com/threads/psi-magnet-reference-guide.373370/

Anyway, the questionnaire.

1. Yep, the_0ne_ssb
2. Played my my boy since Brawl, and nonstop since he came out for Smash 4.
3. Lucas is my last name. Not kidding.
4. A ton. I've already made plenty of threads and I love just sitting in Training and doing research for some reason.
5. Sure, mostly.
6. Definitely.

And I am waiting for you to add me <3

CommanderRin · Sep 17, 2015

Day 1 Lucas because I was bored.
Found out that the frog shirt isn't a frog.
Finally figured out the "Nowhere" reference
Destroyed some local players with Lucas
Started watching Mother 3 LP
Respect for Lucas sky rocketed
Now I have another character I'm testing alongside my ZSS and Emblem Princesses

Aka, work hard guys!
Maybe I can do something to help.

Kodystri · Sep 17, 2015

Fill in the application <3

CommanderRin said:
Day 1 Lucas because I was bored.
Found out that the frog shirt isn't a frog.
Finally figured out the "Nowhere" reference
Destroyed some local players with Lucas
Started watching Mother 3 LP
Respect for Lucas sky rocketed
Now I have another character I'm testing alongside my ZSS and Emblem Princesses

Aka, work hard guys!
Maybe I can do something to help.

Fill in the Application or me accepting your help will go Nowhere <3

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