Official Mysterious Arsenal - Greninja Information & AT Thread

[FullMoon]

Is Shadow Sneak a good option out of shield though? It's laggy, but at the same time it sounds good for punishing.

 

[Lavani]

Oh, two other things I noticed today:

- Connecting with dair eats your double jump. Important to know if you dair offstage.
- Attacking opponents on the ledge with Shadow Sneak causes you to get pushed off, making it more difficult to punish. Can be somewhat useful considering opponents recovering low won't be able to see your shadow on most stages due to how the camera moves, but it isn't the best KO option considering it hits them back toward center stage.

Is Shadow Sneak a good option out of shield though? It's laggy, but at the same time it sounds good for punishing.

I can't really think of a situation I'd use it where it wouldn't just be a surprise gimmick, I was just looking into the tech because I didn't know about it until now.

 

[Marilink]

Can you charge the shadow while in shield? I could see you being able to shield some Rapid Jabs and popping up behind them with a Sneak OOS, if you can.

 

[Lavani]

From the OP:

Shadow Sneaking While Shielding- It's possible to activate Shadow Sneak while you are sliding after shielding post-running. Activate Shadow Sneak's input during this sliding animation, and while in shield you will be able to charge Shadow Sneak. Check this post for details and a video!

Like I was saying, it seems you can do this while standing and the running isn't necessary (tentatively thinking you need to do shadow sneak on shield frame 11~12f, haven't formally tested). I don't think it would be useful for rapid jabs though, since you're still vulnerable during the teleport startup. At best I think it's just a surprise gimmick for before the opponent hits your shield.

 

[Marilink]

Ah, gotcha.

 

[KERO]

Shadow Sneak is the second slowest out of all Greninja's OoS options I believe (the ones without shield drop frames that is), but at the same time, you can net some early kills with it. I believe that because you have a few frames to move around even if you just tap the button (there's a minimum amount the shadow must be moved before Greninja can disappear), you can turn around and get the more powerful kicking hitbox. That said, you'd need to be punishing something fairly laggy, and weak, like a retreating aerial. Shadow Sneak has fairly good range after all, more range than Greninja's other OoS options (unless we're counting Hydro Pump), but I would not try it against even most Ftilts unless you're anticipating a grab right after.

 

[Rakurai]

Don't know if it's been mentioned yet or if it's that big of a deal, but Greninja's Substitute is apparently the only counter that has true invincibility on it during its active frames, meaning he can't be grabbed out of it and can also avoid being damaged by unblockable attacks like Mac's KO Punch or Final Smashes which would break through the other counters, though they won't trigger the attack from it.

If only they could've put invincibility on the attack itself, as well.

 

[Lavani]

Weird discovery of the day: Shadow Sneak's front and back kicks have nearly identical hitboxes, with the exception that the back kick has less horizontal range but slightly more upwards(?!)

:sakurai:

Don't know if it's been mentioned yet or if it's that big of a deal, but Greninja's Substitute is apparently the only counter that has true invincibility on it during its active frames, meaning he can't be grabbed out of it and can also avoid being damaged by unblockable attacks like Mac's KO Punch or Final Smashes which would break through the other counters, though they won't trigger the attack from it.

If only they could've put invincibility on the attack itself, as well.

It's been mentioned in the social and frame data threads, but not here. Though, Greninja's isn't the only counter like this - Ike and Palutena also have invincibility during the counter stance. Ike's had invincibility in Brawl too, I believe.

 

[Rakurai]

Never noticed it on Palutena until now due to it not coming out immediately after the start-up vulnerability ends.

 

[Lemonade Candy]

Japanese players are on a different level

 

[SuperSmashKing009]

Japanese players are on a different level

Thats almost impossible to pull off. Lol

 

[Lemonade Candy]

Like how is he doing this?

 

[Space thing]

Like how is he doing this?

Rough translation of the text:

"Minor thing about Shuriken (I think), if you land after doing a floating neutral B, you won't float with Neutral B until you've landed again. But if you use something like nair or fair as you land, you will float the next time you use neutral B. Incidentally, you can grab items doing this."

I tried it myself; seems right. Huh, interesting I guess lol.

 

[SAX]

Not sure if this has been posted anywhere, and I'm sure it isn't a true combo, but this is sick nonetheless.

https://vine.co/v/Od3X2YT1F37

 

[FullMoon]

That was posted exactly four post ago. Five counting with this one.

 

[KERO]

Japanese players are on a different level

Wait, wait, wait. This is not something we should write off. People like Zinoto made the single banana lock work in Brawl. If someone can test this and find no way to DI it, we should all try and practice this. Nair is already a really good move, and we also have the ability to set up a footstool with Dtilt as well. I managed to pull it off once in ten minutes, though, so it's gonna take some learning, and we'll need to figure out character specific stuff as well.

 

[erico9001]

Umm I don't play Greninja but I may have found an AT that lets you do the running animation while using Shadow Sneak. I'd imagine this would be nice because one of the greatest tells that a Greninja is shadow sneaking is that he walks towards me or stands still.

I was testing around with this technique:
http://smashboards.com/threads/edge-pivot-dash.385847/

I decided to do it with Shadow Sneak and to my shock Greninja was running while doing Shadow Sneak! I did further testing and you don't even need the ledge to do it. You can do it with any turn around. It's just like this but with side b rather than down smash:

Input timing seems difficult but doable with practice. If done right, it looks like you just turned around and then continued running. It seems like the run is a bit slower than usual though, and the shadow goes faster than you still.

 

[KERO]

Umm I don't play Greninja but I may have found an AT that lets you do the running animation while using Shadow Sneak. I'd imagine this would be nice because one of the greatest tells that a Greninja is shadow sneaking is that he walks towards me or stands still.

I was testing around with this technique:
http://smashboards.com/threads/edge-pivot-dash.385847/

I decided to do it with Shadow Sneak and to my shock Greninja was running while doing Shadow Sneak! I did further testing and you don't even need the ledge to do it. You can do it with any turn around. It's just like this but with side b rather than down smash:

Input timing seems difficult but doable with practice. If done right, it looks like you just turned around and then continued running. It seems like the run is a bit slower than usual though, and the shadow goes faster than you still.

We've actually known about this for a while (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qRzc_mupBHI). Although, I personally didn't think of using it after a turnaround dash. I believe it happens because we use Shadow Sneak the same frame that we are able to shield out of dash as well as when one can no longer foxtrot. For some reason, that causes the dash to not be canceled. Shadow Sneak has a lot of strange, glitchy properties. For instance, as noted under the Delayed Shadow Sneak thread, Shadow Sneak cannot cancel landing lag from a regular landing (except from a short hop). This also applies to the auto-release of Shadow Sneak for reasons I cannot begin to explain. This results in the ability to bypass the auto-release by being in landing lag after jumping and keep the shadow active until we decide to release the button. Of course, to bypass this if you want to Shadow Sneak when you land, just cancel the lag by walking as usual and release the button immediately.

There are some other weird Shadow Sneak tricks as well. Surprised we don't have a dedicated thread to the move tbh.

 

[erico9001]

We've actually known about this for a while (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qRzc_mupBHI). Although, I personally didn't think of using it after a turnaround dash. I believe it happens because we use Shadow Sneak the same frame that we are able to shield out of dash as well as when one can no longer foxtrot. For some reason, that causes the dash to not be canceled. Shadow Sneak has a lot of strange, glitchy properties. For instance, as noted under the Delayed Shadow Sneak thread, Shadow Sneak cannot cancel landing lag from a regular landing (except from a short hop). This also applies to the auto-release of Shadow Sneak for reasons I cannot begin to explain. This results in the ability to bypass the auto-release by being in landing lag after jumping and keep the shadow active until we decide to release the button. Of course, to bypass this if you want to Shadow Sneak when you land, just cancel the lag by walking as usual and release the button immediately.

There are some other weird Shadow Sneak tricks as well. Surprised we don't have a dedicated thread to the move tbh.

Ah, ok. I didn't see it in the AT part of this thread so I figured I might as well post about it.

Oh wow that delayed shadow sneak thing is interesting o.o

 

[Jay-kun]

So I don't understand how to do delayed shadow sneak..apparently the Q and A thread has become the social thread..I was hoping someone here could explain. Ty

 

[Lavani]

My current understanding of delayed Shadow Sneak is that a hard landing when the shadow's fully extended removes the timer, so you can hold it forever.

 

[Spirst]

Yep. It's easily done if you extend the shadow, do a full hop, then land right before you would otherwise reappear. The shadow remains out indefinitely.

 

[KERO]

I believe the reason is because you cannot interrupt a hard landing (landing from the height of a regular single jump) by ending the Shadow Sneak (you either have to manually end the animation by beginning a walk or wait for the Shadow Sneak to end). However, this means that if the auto-release goes by (which apparently lasts only a frame or something) during the landing animation, it, too, does not interrupt the landing animation, allowing you to continue holding the shadow there as long as desired.

 

[Opana]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_8r12Bvsr3U

I found the distance difference interesting.

 

[Jay-kun]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_8r12Bvsr3U

I found the distance difference interesting.

how u do hypen smash?

 

[MartinAW4]

how u do hypen smash?

While dashing, slide the circle pad upwards and press A at the same time. Or if you have a C-stick set to smash you can just press up on the C-stick while dashing.
But after the patch I prefer to use jump cancelled Usmash which is Up + jump + A while dashing, because it works more consistently for me than hyphen smash.

 

[Lemonade Candy]

Can greninja benefit from this?

 

[Spirst]

I can see some benefits with that for slight shuriken spacing but I don't think it'd get too much use. Regardless, any trick is nice to have. What's the input?

 

[Lavani]

It's a wavebounce. Flick back, then B, then forward.

Though to do it grounded you either need to do a back diagonal with B-Stick or lightly hold back while pressing B, since you'll pivot otherwise.

 

[Jay-kun]

It's a wavebounce. Flick back, then B, then forward.

Though to do it grounded you either need to do a back diagonal with B-Stick or lightly hold back while pressing B, since you'll pivot otherwise.

So something like this (grounded): back diagonal --> forward OR back lightly +b --> forward?

 

[Lavani]

It was discovered recently that, by landing as an aerial hits, it's possible to start your landing lag during hitlag and thus be able to act after the attack sooner. While we don't have high hitlag aerials that allow for things like this, I think it's important to note for Greninja considering how often we use shorthop aerials, since it both makes them safer and makes followups easier.

In layman's terms, landing at the same time you hit with an aerial results in less landing lag. Not technically what's happening, but close enough.

EDIT: More specifically, this looks to save us around 10 frames on fair/strong hit nair.

So something like this (grounded): back diagonal --> forward OR back lightly +b --> forward?

Correct.

 

[Marilink]

You know, with SH Nair being our best approach, I feel like all of us have done this many times without noticing it, due to Nair's already-low landing lag.

 

[Lemonade Candy]

It was discovered recently that, by landing as an aerial hits, it's possible to start your landing lag during hitlag and thus be able to act after the attack sooner. While we don't have high hitlag aerials that allow for things like this, I think it's important to note for Greninja considering how often we use shorthop aerials, since it both makes them safer and makes followups easier.

In layman's terms, landing at the same time you hit with an aerial results in less landing lag. Not technically what's happening, but close enough.

EDIT: More specifically, this looks to save us around 10 frames on fair/strong hit nair.

So we should nair as low as possible?

Im hoping he benefits from reducing the lag on his fair because its my favorite approach.

 

[MartinAW4]

So we should nair as low as possible?

Im hoping he benefits from reducing the lag on his fair because its my favorite approach.

He does. The reduced lag is very noticeable on Fair and it`s the only way I`ve managed to do the Fair -> Fair combo.

 

[Lemonade Candy]

can you show it to me? :O

 

[Lavani]

He does. The reduced lag is very noticeable on Fair and it`s the only way I`ve managed to do the Fair -> Fair combo.

This actually isn't necessary for fair -> fair, though the timing's tight.

I'm still trying to figure out the timing to do this with Greninja, but I get the feeling it would make things like nair>shadow sneak possible, for example. In general though it's just good that we can shave end lag off with this; if it works on shield (still not confirmed), nair might even have frame advantage on shield like this.

EDIT: Connected nair -> shadow sneak on 70% Dark Pit like this

EDIT2:

can you show it to me? :O

Both clips hit with nair on frame 30. Right lands during the hitlag, and is able to move six frames sooner than left, allowing the shadow sneak followup to true combo.

 

[Lemonade Candy]

And now we have another guaranteed kill set up. So thats how the Japanese player was able to do nair into toadstool? He had more frames to properly toadstool. I thought I had to sour spot nair.

 

[Lemonade Candy]

Can someone translate this?

He's sliding while doing his forward tilt. It seems to force trip.

 

[Lavani]

Looks like dtilt>dtilt>dthrow>perfect pivot ftilt to force getup>dtilt>perfect pivot utilt>usmash

 

[Lemonade Candy]

This is perfect pivot?

Edit: Had wrong video at first