Official Mysterious Arsenal - Greninja Information & AT Thread

[Funkermonster]

Reliable ways to rack up damage besides Uthrow combos? People have that I attempt to dash grab others far too often and that I need to mixup my gameplay and approaches more, its a horrible habit to have and I still haven't broken it. Not exactly Greninja- specific (I still do it when playing other characters) , but as him I think I am so keen on building damage. I rely too much on grab combos and tend to do the same thing in almost every match I have, and think that is the root of my dash grab spamming. l also use jabs and fully charged shurikens anda few other combos, but I still think that's not enough. Little help?

 

[Marilink]

Nair approaches will help mix up your game and give you some more combo options to work with.

 

[Funkermonster]

I kinda knows that already (thanks anyway). Nair isn't exactly a good approach since its easy to shieldgrab, so it only works for so long.

 

[elusiveTranscendent]

I kinda knows that already (thanks anyway). Nair isn't exactly a good approach since its easy to shieldgrab, so it only works for so long.

You can sometimes catch their grab by going from nair directly into jab.

 

[MartinAW4]

I kinda knows that already (thanks anyway). Nair isn't exactly a good approach since its easy to shieldgrab, so it only works for so long.

They can`t shield grab you if you short hop fast fall it and follow it up with a Jab or even Usmash -> Jab which is what I use.
Edit: I got ninja`d by elusiveTranscendent but that`s to be expected on the Greninja boards.

 

[NinjaLink]

Hey guys I don't normally come here so sorry if this glitch has already been found out but I was messing around with Greninja in training mode and I found this minor but strange glitch with his shadow sneak.

Normally when you hold Shadow Sneak the shadow moves forward and after a bit you're forced to let go of the shadow sneak and teleport to the shadow. However for some reason when I'd start shadow sneak and instantly double jump and then immediately fast fall, I could hold the Shadow Sneak Indefinitely, it's pretty strange. I was able to do it pretty consistently too. Has anyone seen anything like this before? I should note that you still can't run, attack, ect, this just lets you hold it forever.

Jumping, walking, crouching, taunting, and cancelling the shadow sneak altogether by grabbing the ledge.

If only it combined with running SS to give full running mobility with a delayed shadow. Tried it, didn't work.

You can wallcling among those other things.

 

[Appdude]

You can wallcling among those other things.

Does this work with the 3ds version?

 

[NinjaLink]

Does this work with the 3ds version?

Yes it should.

 

[Opana]

Greninja's run off levitating counter

Run at the end of a ledge or end of a platform, use Substitute, the quickly press forward to do.

 

[FullMoon]

Well, it's not like we can do much with that. Substitute is not a very good and we can't do anything out of it. It would be nice if it could be used for edgeguarding but I don't think that's the case.

 

[Opana]

Well, it's not like we can do much with that. Substitute is not a very good and we can't do anything out of it. It would be nice if it could be used for edgeguarding but I don't think that's the case.

I submit all info I find, I don't care how viable it is as I'll let people play around with it.

 

[Lavani]

The appeal to this isn't using Substitute floating in front of the ledge.

The appeal is using Exploding Attack floating in front of the ledge.

 

[Alphamew17]

The appeal to this isn't using Substitute floating in front of the ledge.

The appeal is using Exploding Attack floating in front of the ledge.

I agree that this would be useful, if we could actually use customs in tournaments. Speaking of which, I should take a look into tournaments that allow customs...

Yes it should.

I have tested this and confirmed that it works for the 3ds version. It can be useful (kinda), but I don't see any real practical use in a tournament setting. You wouldn't be sitting there holding a shadow sneak for the full length anyway, much less longer.

 

[Ekans647]

So I've been playing with Greninja for a while. I like playing with him, but I always seems to lose with him. I come close to winning , but never do. here are some of my problems:

Approaching: How do I approach? I try using aerial approaches with Nair & Bair but I constantly get shield grabbed by my opponent. What some ways to approach from the ground?

Water Shuriken: I like this move. I love how fast it is and it controls space very well, but are there any other uses or advanced techniques with it?

Hydro Pump: I there any uses for this move other than recovery? I've seen players push opponents away, but how viable is that? Also, how baldy was Hydro Pump nerved in the patch? Is the push-back still strong enough to warrant use?

Combos: My second biggest problem. I have trouble consistently applying pressure to the opponent and following up with attacks. What moves can combo well? Does Greninja even have a good combo game?

KO: This is by far my biggest problem with Greninja. U-Smash only KO's effectively if you connect the sweetspot, F-Smash I have trouble connecting, and his aerials are slow. Any set-ups for KO's would also be appreciated.

I love the character. I've been playing Pokémon since 2003 and water has always been my favorite type. It just that Greninja feels awkward to me and his hatboxes are weird. Thanks for all the help.

 

[Shack]

So I've been playing with Greninja for a while. I like playing with him, but I always seems to lose with him. I come close to winning , but never do. here are some of my problems:

Approaching: How do I approach? I try using aerial approaches with Nair & Bair but I constantly get shield grabbed by my opponent. What some ways to approach from the ground?

Water Shuriken: I like this move. I love how fast it is and it controls space very well, but are there any other uses or advanced techniques with it?

Hydro Pump: I there any uses for this move other than recovery? I've seen players push opponents away, but how viable is that? Also, how baldy was Hydro Pump nerved in the patch? Is the push-back still strong enough to warrant use?

Combos: My second biggest problem. I have trouble consistently applying pressure to the opponent and following up with attacks. What moves can combo well? Does Greninja even have a good combo game?

KO: This is by far my biggest problem with Greninja. U-Smash only KO's effectively if you connect the sweetspot, F-Smash I have trouble connecting, and his aerials are slow. Any set-ups for KO's would also be appreciated.

I love the character. I've been playing Pokémon since 2003 and water has always been my favorite type. It just that Greninja feels awkward to me and his hatboxes are weird. Thanks for all the help.

Mix in Empty Jumps and space your BAirs so you only hit with the tip.

You can short hop with them to gain a little distance instead of staying in one place. Also mix up your charges to try and throw them off a little.

HP used to be AMAZING for gimps and would send people flying. Now it barely moves them, but it is still worth going for in nearly every matchup because it is an easy 2% and you still can push people far enough to gimp them. You also can push them just far enough to where they are forced to use their UpB and float down into one of your smash attacks.

Greninja doesn't have too many reliable combos or grab set ups outside of the following:
Short hop NAir > Jab
Short hop NAir > DTilt > Dash Attack/Dash USmash
Shuriken > FAir
DAir > BAir/Fair
Up Throw > Fast Fall UAir > Up Throw(chain grabish)
Up Throw > USmash/UTilt/UAir
Also his USmash, UTilt and UAir tend to combo nicely into each other depending on the percents you are at. The annoying thing is that his easy to land combos don't translate into KOs very well and the KO ones are not very easy to land on a competent opponent. You pretty much rely on getting good reads to land a smash/FAir or fighting them off the stage with aerials to land a stage spike or gimp.

 

[Ekans647]

Mix in Empty Jumps and space your BAirs so you only hit with the tip.

You can short hop with them to gain a little distance instead of staying in one place. Also mix up your charges to try and throw them off a little.

HP used to be AMAZING for gimps and would send people flying. Now it barely moves them, but it is still worth going for in nearly every matchup because it is an easy 2% and you still can push people far enough to gimp them. You also can push them just far enough to where they are forced to use their UpB and float down into one of your smash attacks.

Greninja doesn't have too many reliable combos or grab set ups outside of the following:
Short hop NAir > Jab
Short hop NAir > DTilt > Dash Attack/Dash USmash
Shuriken > FAir
DAir > BAir/Fair
Up Throw > Fast Fall UAir > Up Throw(chain grabish)
Up Throw > USmash/UTilt/UAir
Also his USmash, UTilt and UAir tend to combo nicely into each other depending on the percents you are at. The annoying thing is that his easy to land combos don't translate into KOs very well and the KO ones are not very easy to land on a competent opponent. You pretty much rely on getting good reads to land a smash/FAir or fighting them off the stage with aerials to land a stage spike or gimp.

That's a shame they nerfed HP I would've loved to use HP to edge guard. can you still use to push opponents back though, or is it not worth the trouble?

 

[MartinAW4]

That's a shame they nerfed HP I would've loved to use HP to edge guard. can you still use to push opponents back though, or is it not worth the trouble?

HP can still edgeguard some recoveries very reliably. It`s extremely effective against purely vertical recoveries like Ike`s Up B or for hitting Ness to push him away from his PK Thunder. It`s a lot weaker than before so you won`t be able to gimp everyone with it, but even if you don`t you usually send them above you in helpless state right into range of your sweetspot Usmash. So it`s still worth using every time you expect them to Up B.

Also to prevent getting shield grabbed when approaching with short hop fast fall Nairs, always follow up the Nair with a Jab if they shield. The Jab comes out before their grab, so if they try to shield grab, you`ll hit them for 10% free damage.

A good combo which you can do with Water Shuriken is to fully charge one, then chase after it and if your opponent gets caught in it, you can hit them with Usmash or grab them. The combo into Usmash only works at low % (below 20%), but the charged WS -> grab combo works at all %.

Greninja has a lot of different combos. Shack already listed most of the reliable ones. I`d just add:
Dash Attack -> Fair
Nair -> Usmash
Also Uthrow -> Usmash/Utilt and Dtilt -> Dash Attack do not truly combo, but you can often land them if the opponent does not react quickly enough.
For more details about Greninja`s combos, you can check out this thread:
http://smashboards.com/threads/greninjas-true-combos.375003/

And here are some kill combos you can use. The % are against Sheik without rage on FD.
- sourspot Nair -> Usmash at 83-100%
- Dtilt -> hyphen Usmash at 83-120%
- Utilt -> Uair at 100-160%
- Dash Attack -> Fair at 100-140%
- Dtilt -> Uair at 130-320%
- Dtilt -> Fair at 132-300%
- Uthrow above 160%
- and Bthrow -> Bair -> Bair can gimp almost all characters at 0% if you Bthrow them off the ledge.

 

[Ekans647]

HP can still edgeguard some recoveries very reliably. It`s extremely effective against purely vertical recoveries like Ike`s Up B or for hitting Ness to push him away from his PK Thunder. It`s a lot weaker than before so you won`t be able to gimp everyone with it, but even if you don`t you usually send them above you in helpless state right into range of your sweetspot Usmash. So it`s still worth using every time you expect them to Up B.

Also to prevent getting shield grabbed when approaching with short hop fast fall Nairs, always follow up the Nair with a Jab if they shield. The Jab comes out before their grab, so if they try to shield grab, you`ll hit them for 10% free damage.

A good combo which you can do with Water Shuriken is to fully charge one, then chase after it and if your opponent gets caught in it, you can hit them with Usmash or grab them. The combo into Usmash only works at low % (below 20%), but the charged WS -> grab combo works at all %.

Greninja has a lot of different combos. Shack already listed most of the reliable ones. I`d just add:
Dash Attack -> Fair
Nair -> Usmash
Also Uthrow -> Usmash/Utilt and Dtilt -> Dash Attack do not truly combo, but you can often land them if the opponent does not react quickly enough.
For more details about Greninja`s combos, you can check out this thread:
http://smashboards.com/threads/greninjas-true-combos.375003/

And here are some kill combos you can use. The % are against Sheik without rage on FD.
- sourspot Nair -> Usmash at 83-100%
- Dtilt -> hyphen Usmash at 83-120%
- Utilt -> Uair at 100-160%
- Dash Attack -> Fair at 100-140%
- Dtilt -> Uair at 130-320%
- Dtilt -> Fair at 132-300%
- Uthrow above 160%
- and Bthrow -> Bair -> Bair can gimp almost all characters at 0% if you Bthrow them off the ledge.

Thanks for all the helps guys! It good to now that HP is still useful, but I still hope they eventually buff it back to it's former glory. I really appreciate all the help!

 

[Shack]

Thanks for all the helps guys! It good to now that HP is still useful, but I still hope they eventually buff it back to it's former glory. I really appreciate all the help!

Lol, I doubt they will, it was stronger than Mario's flood move and that move has to be charged to use. HP was kind of broken, but it really helped Greninja get KOs since the lack of reliable/easy setups.

 

[Ekans647]

Lol, I doubt they will, it was stronger than Mario's flood move and that move has to be charged to use. HP was kind of broken, but it really helped Greninja get KOs since the lack of reliable/easy setups.

Well I hope they at least give it some buff to pushback. Thanks for your advice btw! While I'm still losing matches, I'm doing better. I only lose because I start to fall into old habits of play. Hopefully I'll break them and start winning.

 

[Shack]

Just wanting to note that NAir to Jab is not safe on block, i get shield grabbed out of it often even without perfect shields.

 

[MartinAW4]

Just wanting to note that NAir to Jab is not safe on block, i get shield grabbed out of it often even without perfect shields.

Aren`t you mistiming the Nairs? The Nair hitbox has to last from the peak of your jump until you land on the ground if you SHFF it and once on the ground your frame 3 Jab should beat all grabs. Nair -> Jab is my main approach and I haven`t been shield grabbed out of it yet even by lv.9 CPUs who perfect shield everything and shield grab even my Dtilts.
Though it is possible that even lv.9 CPUs don`t shield grab perfectly and a skilled human player might be able to time the grab just right to land it before the Jab. Did you save any videos of you getting shield grabbed out of Nair -> Jab?

 

[Shack]

Aren`t you mistiming the Nairs? The Nair hitbox has to last from the peak of your jump until you land on the ground if you SHFF it and once on the ground your frame 3 Jab should beat all grabs. Nair -> Jab is my main approach and I haven`t been shield grabbed out of it yet even by lv.9 CPUs who perfect shield everything and shield grab even my Dtilts.
Though it is possible that even lv.9 CPUs don`t shield grab perfectly and a skilled human player might be able to time the grab just right to land it before the Jab. Did you save any videos of you getting shield grabbed out of Nair -> Jab?

I used to use it all the time as well, it was my main approach especially when playing CPUs on the 3DS because the jab would always stuff there grab or follow up. However my friend's Pit grabs me out of it, sometimes before I even hit the ground -_-. I did not save any replays, but I will keep it in mind for next time I play him. Maybe Pit just has a faster start up on his grab? I guess it is possible that I am not spacing it properly, I doubt it though because of the small hitbox.

 

[MartinAW4]

I used to use it all the time as well, it was my main approach especially when playing CPUs on the 3DS because the jab would always stuff there grab or follow up. However my friend's Pit grabs me out of it, sometimes before I even hit the ground -_-. I did not save any replays, but I will keep it in mind for next time I play him. Maybe Pit just has a faster start up on his grab? I guess it is possible that I am not spacing it properly, I doubt it though because of the small hitbox.

I checked the frame data and it turns out you`re right. Nair has 12 frames of landing lag and Jab hits at frame 3 while Pit`s grab comes out at frame 4 (probably the fastest grab in the game). So he has 11 frames during which he can grab you after shielding a Nair and before your Jab connects (maybe a little less than 11 since Nair probably causes 1-2 frames of shield stun, but he should definitely have at least 8 frames during which he can grab you).

 

[Lavani]

Small correction, Pit's grab is 6f (still really fast for a grab) and nair should do ~3-5f shieldstun.

All of Greninja's aerials (and the vast majority of aerials in general) are pretty unsafe on shield, aside from dair but that has its own issues. Fastfall nair is still something I use a ton, but if you're going to hit a shield with it you should at least land behind them, or mix up front/back landings. And never expect it to be safe.

 

[MartinAW4]

Small correction, Pit's grab is 6f (still really fast for a grab) and nair should do ~3-5f shieldstun.

All of Greninja's aerials (and the vast majority of aerials in general) are pretty unsafe on shield, aside from dair but that has its own issues. Fastfall nair is still something I use a ton, but if you're going to hit a shield with it you should at least land behind them, or mix up front/back landings. And never expect it to be safe.

Thanks for correcting me, Dantarion`s data dump is sometimes hard to read correctly. If Pit`s grab comes out at frame 6 and Nair causes let`s say 4 frames of shield stun that leaves Pit with only 5 frames during which he can shield grab if my math is right (12 F Nair landing lag + 3 F Jab - 4 F shield stun - 6 F Grab). So Nair -> Jab is still pretty safe even against the fastest Jabs and in the ditto, it should be completely safe thanks to Greninja`s horribly slow 14 frame grab.

 

[TTYK]

Still no AT's.... Nothing to see here, I recommend the combo thread.

 

[Gunla]

Still no AT's.... Nothing to see here, I recommend the combo thread.

As it stands, I think the best option is just suggestion and agreement from others in the thread.

That being said, suggest away!

Reposting because it's still relevant.
Again, as long as you guys suggest what should be placed there, it will be placed there.

I'd rather you guys give out the suggestions as I'm only one individual, while total agreement from the community is a much stronger, more accurate and greater overall tool when making AT lists.

 

[MartinAW4]

Reposting because it's still relevant.
Again, as long as you guys suggest what should be placed there, it will be placed there.

I'd rather you guys give out the suggestions as I'm only one individual, while total agreement from the community is a much stronger, more accurate and greater overall tool when making AT lists.

These are all the ATs I can think of right now which might be worth including:
Uair spike
Shadow Sneak hitstun cancelling
Running Shadow Sneak
Unlimited Shadow Sneak delay: http://smashboards.com/threads/shadow-sneak-delay.378754/
Platform Shadow Sneaking: http://smashboards.com/threads/platform-shadow-sneaking-retreating-and-advancing.377129/
Hydro Bubble (the grounded Hydro Pump that shoots one small pump)
Water Shuriken B-Reversing
SHFF Nair (not really an advanced technique, but a very useful and often overlooked one, so I think it deserves more attention)

 

[SuperSmashKing009]

These are all the ATs I can think of right now which might be worth including:
Uair spike
Shadow Sneak hitstun cancelling
Running Shadow Sneak
Unlimited Shadow Sneak delay: http://smashboards.com/threads/shadow-sneak-delay.378754/
Platform Shadow Sneaking: http://smashboards.com/threads/platform-shadow-sneaking-retreating-and-advancing.377129/
Hydro Bubble (the grounded Hydro Pump that shoots one small pump)
Water Shuriken B-Reversing
SHFF Nair (not really an advanced technique, but a very useful and often overlooked one, so I think it deserves more attention)

Does platform SS still work for the Wii U?

 

[MartinAW4]

Does platform SS still work for the Wii U?

Yes, I tested it on Battlefield and it still works.

 

[SuperSmashKing009]

Yes, I tested it on Battlefield and it still works.

This is great, going to use this in tourneys.

 

[Shack]

Still no AT's.... Nothing to see here, I recommend the combo thread.

If you're looking for AT, I would practice the standard movement options like pivots and all the dash options. Greninja has some good smashes, but no real set ups for them. Being able to dash back or forward into a FSmash or DSmash will help him out a lot.

 

[Ekans647]

So I managed to get my first win with Greninja today! Thank you so much for your advice, @ Shack & @ MartinAW4 ! My opponent wasn't the best, but I played very well. I zoned with Water Shuriken, spaced with Bair, punished with Smashes, and KO'ed with Hydro Pump! I saved the recording as well.

So how well can Greninja combo? Does he have any true combos, or can the opponent escape?

 

[Spirst]

So I managed to get my first win with Greninja today! Thank you so much for your advice, @ Shack & @ MartinAW4 ! My opponent wasn't the best, but I played very well. I zoned with Water Shuriken, spaced with Bair, punished with Smashes, and KO'ed with Hydro Pump! I saved the recording as well.

So how well can Greninja combo? Does he have any true combos, or can the opponent escape?

Good job. Hopefully it's the start of more wins.

As for combos, Martin here has compiled an exhaustive list of combos Greninja has. Take a look if you haven't already:

http://smashboards.com/threads/greninjas-true-combos.375003/

 

[Alphamew17]

What kinds of things could you pull off with the SS off a platform? I'd like to know if anyone has used this in battle, and what kind of use it has. Also, a vid would be nice

 

[Maysoon]

I don't know if this was discovered, but if some jumps into water fountain taunt from below, it pushes them extremely high, often times to their death.

 

[ZeroWhiteRei]

Yo, I have been testing Shadow Sneak recently and found out two tiny ATs.
The first one is that you can SS out of shield without jumping. For example, you can run towards your opponent to the right side, shield (while still holding right) then press B.

The second AT is Shadow Sneaking while shielding. I performed it accidentally while trying to do the first AT.
Basically if you were running and then shielded, you will slide for a short distance while in shield. If you managed to input Shadow Sneak after the slide starts and before it ends, you can continue shielding while charging shadow sneak up to the maximum distance.
So I could say the input is: Run (let's say to the right) > Shield (While holding the right direction) > B (as you are sliding).

Here's a video:

Not sure if there is any application for it, but I'm trying to use SS more after 1.0.4 patch, be it on ground or mid air.

 

[Alphamew17]

Yo, I have been testing Shadow Sneak recently and found out two tiny ATs.

Not sure if there is any application for it, but I'm trying to use SS more after 1.0.4 patch, be it on ground or mid air.

Trust me, this is a technique people could use. I could easily see people SS'ing out of shield during a tournament. I should try applying it to a battle and upload a vid of it later.

 

[Gunla]

Now with ATs! 9 ATs have been added to the Mysterious Arsenal OP.

I added quite a few Shadow Sneak ATs, UAir Spiking, Hydro Bubble and SHFF Nair for this first batch!