My thoughts on Tier Lists

[Dopplegamer]

Hi everyone! Long time Smasher, first time poster. I finally got around to setting up a SB account today and wanted to celebrate with my first discussion.

This may have already been discussed before (remember, I'm new), but I wanted to throw my own two cents in. I firmly believe tier lists are absolutely useless for Project M....hear me out.

This summer, I started training in PM regularly with relatives and friends. I started out by only picking my mains, Diddy and Squirtle. After I while, I got bored, and just played random. For some reason, random loved to give me Zero Suit, Peach, Olimar, and Ice Climbers. So I started getting used to them, and good at them. Nowadays, I regularly cycle between over a third of the roster. All this experience has made me realize the uselessness of PM tierlists. And that is why I love PM so much. No longer are matches dominated by a Spacey, or Sheik, or Marth. Every character has a shot at kicking ass, even Olimar. If you don't believe me, here's a trick: Go to Brawl Vault (or wherever), and get a custom skin for a character you don't usually play. The right skin can make any character feel awesome (For me, I got Chibi Samus for Olimar, and my Olimar game really improved). If you don't like skins, just play Random, and then play the character you land on repeatedly.

After my experiences, I come to a deep sigh every time I see a tierlist. All they are doing is enforcing the Melee mindset, that only an elite few characters can be played with success. But I understand that some characters are better than others, which is why I suggest that we focus entirely on counterpicks, instead of tiers. Everyone feel free offer your ideas on tierlists, and their future in Smash.

 

[Exodo]

I agree, people just keep seing the melee top characters as the top characters, but in P:M every character is good, it all depends on the users knowledge over the character.

 

[isalegend]

Depending on the game, tier lists are followed in different fashions. Melee is pretty much a set standard of high level play, but in games like Tekken, it's all based on how difficult it is to bring out the characters strong points, and use them vs faster, stronger, and better characters.

That's how I would see a Project M Tier List at the moment, being the same way. Not followed to the absolute, but more-so as a guide for matchups and picking a main.

 

[InfinityCollision]

It's not that tier lists are useless, it's that you don't understand tier lists.

PM's tiers are closer to Smash 64's than Melee's in that the difference in tiers is much smaller and a much broader portion of the cast is viable.

 

[Bellioes]

There is actually a Tier list discussion thread. You could have posted there instead of making a new thread.

Putting that aside, heres what i have to say. For me, a tier list is just a ranking of the characters. It doesnt mean the line of viability has to be set to just the top tiered characters. In melee, this was actually the case. However, I think it stems from the fact that the difference between the "elite" top-tiered characters and those lower on list was too great such as Sheik being able to chaingrab like half of the cast. This is why Melee is accepted by most to be an imbalanced game. Its not the same as in PM.

In PM, the characters are much more balanced and most if not all characters are viable in competitive play. The actual difference between the top and bottom of the list would be mich much closer than Melee. The fact that a character is low on the list would not imply that the character is just unable to be good for competitive play. Despite this, Im sure people can agree that some characters are just better than the rest of the cast ( M2 comes to mind). The tier list can therefore still be useful for ranking the cast without barring any characters from being tourney viable. The game attempting to be more balanced than previous Smash generations means that the line of viability, if one exists, is probably really low down on said tier list.

 

[2 C H i L L E D]

"All they are doing is enforcing the Melee mindset, that only an elite few characters can be played with success."

To a degree, tier lists in PM are somewhat pointless but I don't really think anyone is necessarily enforcing a "Melee Mindset". There are a number of characters that are clearly more viable than others in PM, just because they are being listed higher in the tier list doesn't mean they will be overused. Besides the S & A tiers, the Melee tier list has gaping voids in character viability between sections. PM tier lists are the opposite there is minimal drop off in character viability between the sections. Because the game is balanced well, and each character is viable in his/her/its own right, I can't see the entire PM community using only a handful of characters out of the roster.

 

[Dopplegamer]

"All they are doing is enforcing the Melee mindset, that only an elite few characters can be played with success."

To a degree, tier lists in PM are somewhat pointless but I don't really think anyone is necessarily enforcing a "Melee Mindset". There are a number of characters that are clearly more viable than others in PM, just because they are being listed higher in the tier list doesn't mean they will be overused. Besides the S & A tiers, the Melee tier list has gaping voids in character viability between sections. PM tier lists are the opposite there is minimal drop off in character viability between the sections. Because the game is balanced well, and each character is viable in his/her/its own right, I can't see the entire PM community using only a handful of characters out of the roster.

Maybe I misunderstood PM tiers, but I'm probably just talking from personal experience, coming from an area that almost exclusively plays Melee, and treats PM as a lesser Melee.

 

[Raijinken]

With an evolving game that has balance patches, it's best to sort tiers by actual pick or win rate in tournaments, not by "perceived effectiveness". Dota is a pretty good cross-example: every character is viable in basically some setting, but you can largely tell by which ones are played most to see what the dominant strategy and characters are.

Of course, in Smash, a lot of that is driven by fandom, so characters with a smaller fandom will be less represented as a result. Still, an over-arching tier list is indeed useless, as any character could fall to a patch, and another can rise to take their place.

 

[Vashimus]

It doesn't matter how young or unexplored the metagame is, or how things will definitely change next patch. A tier list is a reflection of the metagame at the time of creation. As such, it's never static and evolves and changes with the metagame.

Also, if you're a newer player in Project M, the tier list is practically meaningless for you. You wouldn't have any idea of what makes this or that character strong because it doesn't apply to you. All a tier list says is, theoretically, who would more likely come out on top in a serious competitive setting when played at their max potential.

Don't worry about tiers and just worry about getting better at the game, that's what most people are doing.

 

[Dopplegamer]

I

Don't worry about tiers and just worry about getting better at the game, that's what most people are doing.

Never do, I just see some people take it TOO seriously.

 

[Giga-Bowser]

Too seriously for what? Do they care too much for you? Some of us like to analyze the game outside of personal anecdotes, it's why there are threads dedicated to frames, tournament results, and match-up specific information. If it isn't your cup of tea then good for you, but those of us who want to improve from looking at the game from different angles often end up with insights that can improve our game. The difference in tiers aren't as big as in Melee, but Mewtwo for example is looking better than the Ice-Climbers in almost every aspect right now. This observation isn't just reserved for the highest level play, but becomes apparent to those who want to get good enough to win even a mid-sized tournament. Results and good speculation also are a way to help with character tweaking, which is what lead to your original observation that the cast is pretty balanced in the first place.

Don't write off things if you don't understand them.

 

[PajamasM]

Tires don exits

Bu seriously, tiers don't really matter at all in this game. Like someone earlier said, it is like smash 64 where there is an order and different tiers of "viability", but that doesn't change the fact that Japan's best player in 64 is Jousuke, a Samus main. Samus is considered the worst character in the game, and this man has beaten isai (The undisputed king) in both 1 on 1 and 12 character battles. This game is even more balanced than 64, so tiers don't matter except for the ones that are "as the metagame stands" where obviously the melee top tiers are dominant due to knowledge on them already. If you look at the CT tier list (which was a stupid idea to do btw) and want to main toon link, then you should.

 

[Joe73191]

This is why an accurate PM match-up chart is so needed and would be so deadly. A real match up chart would be the handiest thing for PM players right now. Its no longer about tiers in PM its all 100% about match ups. In PM you need like 3 mains because you need to cover all your weaknesses. The first group to come out with an accurate match up chart will change and shape the PM metagame.

 

[Shadic]

Please take this to the existing tier-list discussion thread. Thanks.