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My theory on how items became such a hot topic.

itsameSMB

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 21, 2008
Messages
332
Location
Sheboygan, WI
*WARNING: somewhat lengthy post!

I've notice that many people here usually don'tlike to use items or they are fanatics. The anti-item side seems to believe that they are to random and unbalanced to require any real skill to use, while the pro-item side says that they were put in the game for a reason and require some thought to use properly. Sure, they are spontaneous, but that doesn't mean that it randomly levels the playing field whenever one appears; it just adds to one's strategy ("do I go after the item so that my opponent can get it or should I take the opportunity to wail on my enemy, knowing they are going towards the item and probably aren't focusing on attack me?"). One reason I believe many smash veterans here have such a negative view of items is that the original Super Smash Bros. game had such horrible items, and the few that were good were either very rare, very weak, or hard to use. Then along came Melee, with improved items and a right-of-the-bat item switch. Most people who played Smash a lot before had a negative connotation with items when it was released, yet new players had learned the game with items incorperated into their strategy. Those who disliked items in SSB butt tried them in Melee anyway most likely did not have as much experience with items as those who played SSB and liked the items, which steepened the learning curb for Melee and put them at a disadvantage to SSB item-users and Melee newcomers/item-users. Taking an even larger conjectural step, I'd say that those who disliked items turned off items the majority of their play time, developing their pure smash skills, limiting their experience of the items, ergo they did not integrate them into their strategies. Meanwhile, item users kept the items on, taking longer to develop their pure smash skills, but increasing their item experience and dexterity. Since it takes time to spot, retrieve, use, and dispose of an item, item users theoretically had less actual play time than their non-item-using counterparts. Now I've never been in a serious tourney myself, but I'd image that this is how it usually worked/works: item users, probably used to playing with items on high and playing with selected items, had less to work with and a lower chance of getting an item they were good with, while non-item users focused purely on beating the pulp out of their opponent. Since you have to grab an item before you can use it, you need to get to it first. Unforuntely for the item users, the non-item users pounded them ever step of the way their, since they could attack from any direction while the item seeker could only do directional attacks (which usually end up with a lenghty vulnerability) and R moves on the way there. If they happened to get the item, they usually wound up being very vulnerable to attack and weren't given much of a chance to use their item. If they happened to land an item attack an they vulnerability produced didn't outlast the recomposure time of the opponent, the item user probably ended up thinking "now what?", since even if you cause a lot of damage, you won't instantly get a KO. Remembering they would probably be a bit slower than than non-item users, they would probably need a good setup to land a powerful blow on the non-item user, something that simply doesn't not happen in top-level play. So the item users got thrashed and the non-item users went on to win the tournaments, in a way discouraging item use in competitive play. This lowers the number of item users competeing in typical tournaments, lessening the item experience of non-item users even more until the point where using items in competitive play was like throwing knives at a gunfight. As the non-item users become pros (and this sort of applys to non-pro non-item users, as well), they detest fighting with items because it is an element that they do not use often, and since it is a somewhat extemporaneous element, they believe it is more of a luck thing so it is labeled as "requiring little to no skill to use". Brawl did not help to bridge the gap between the two groups. In fact, it made it worse with the inclusion of the smash ball and golden hammer, easily the two cheapest items in the game, as they are almost guaranteed KO's if use properly, and have very little vulnerability during use. Item users accepted final smashes with open arms, but the non-item users thought that the cheapness of the final smashes and the chore of attacking the smash ball was both unappealing and tedious.

Of course, I'm not saying non-item users can't use items better than a noob (but they probably don't have many plans for one) and I also am not saying that those who use items lack fundmental smash skills (they are just less developed than that of a non-item user). I myself prefer to use items, since variety is the spice of life, and it prevents matches from becoming hopeless for a player or team (which lowers the alertness of the winning side and increases the apathy of the losing team, making the match far less eventful). Still, non-item users do make a good point so I'm interested to hear what you guys have to say. So, what do you folks think?
 

Chaosblade77

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 1, 2007
Messages
1,958
I couldn't bring myself to read that hideous wall of text. I have ADHD and would get lost fairly quickly... I did read the bottom paragraph though and will comment from what I implied from that.

I don't think items are a good way to determine how good of a player someone is. I believe that a player who has items turned on can be just as developed as a player who has them off. To say otherwise is simply stereotyping. Same goes with people who play with items off, I am an example of this.

I sucked at Melee, for several reasons. One had to do with how I played the game (tap jump messed me up a lot because I had issues short hopping, among other things that I won't get into), and another was because I didn't understand, or even know about, any advanced techniques or higher levels of play. I played the game casually from release until about July or so of last year. I also played the game with items OFF.

Inversely, I play Brawl with items on, and I am actually not bad at it (not the best by any means, and I can use several "ATs" offline, online lag throws me off though). Not sure how much it counts for since the only items I even pick up are bombs (to avoid messing up later due to them), Smash Balls and Dragoon Parts (to prevent opponents from getting them), and healing items (which are usually off, but they are obvious). Anything else I ignore or throw off the stage to get rid of it.

Regardless, I believe that items don't have place in a discussion over who is the better player when you are looking beyond common stereotypes.
 

LouisLeGros

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 23, 2008
Messages
403
Location
Seattle
Not to sound rude, but that would be much more readable if you used paragraphs.

For me personally I don't usually play with items on because I'm just so tired of having explosives spawn right in front of me and losing me the match. Sure using items takes skills, but it also adds random effects that are harmful for competitive play.

If I'm just playing for fun and don't care if I win or lose items are fine with me, but when I play to win items are out of the question.
 

ICanBeYourHero

Smash Rookie
Joined
Dec 10, 2005
Messages
6
Location
MI
I hate randomly picking up items more than anything. Also that flame food is like uber invincibility.
 

RyuuAqua

Smash Rookie
Joined
Feb 3, 2008
Messages
19
Location
Everywhere, at once
I don't mean to be mean or patronizing, and may be wrong, but I hear that the item debate already happened for Melee - in 2004 or 2005. Is it true that around that time, the community basically settled on No Items because items added randomness and could take the win away far more easily from players who otherwise deserve it? I bring this up because all your points (and more largely, the points in the item debate) are sound, but it's all happened before.

While I'm a strong advocate of Melee and Brawl being evaluated independently, one thing both games have in common is the ability for random items to drop in random locations at random times, ranging from awful to game-breaking in strength. Both games also have the ability to turn such items off. For the same reason that so many of us hate tripping, items are bad for competitive games that have them - only far, far worse and far, far more "swingy" - they swing the game randomly in ways that are independent of skill. For this reason, and for the reason that competitive tournaments are mostly about player skill, I'm all for keeping items OFF, as the consensus has stodd from tournament Smashers for about 3 years.

At the same time, I'm a big fan of items in friendlies and casual matches :) They're certainly very fun.
 

rajendra82

Smash Rookie
Joined
Mar 18, 2008
Messages
21
I have read the no item users post passionately how items add a lot of randomness that make the game more like gambling and less like a test of skill. I respect the consensus of no item tournament play in Melee that emerged from experimentation a few years ago, but I think this issue is worth revisiting for two new items in Brawl. I am speaking about the Dragoon and the Smash Ball. One of the criticisms of Brawl is that camping is a very high risk and low reward strategy and no one wants to approach, which results in dull matches of just chipping away at each others health. In my opinion these two new item have a lot of potential to change the style of play as they will reward the mobile and aggressive player over the camper. Plus these two are not very random and need a planned approach to acquire. Could we see the tournaments with everything off escept the Dragoon and Final Smash?
 

Zycor

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 20, 2007
Messages
85
The problem with Dragoon and Smash Balls is that they bring out the dreaded stupid exploding items... Dragoon I think is just random spawning.
 

Arsenic

Smash Rookie
Joined
Mar 21, 2008
Messages
10
Location
VA
I completely agree with OP. Well, at least mostly.

I never really played SSB64. I may have rented it a couple times, or played it at a friend's, but I never really got into it.

When Melee came out, I don't think I got it even close to release. It may have been a couple years. But eventually, the game grew on me, to the point that it was the only game for Gamecube I played. Long before I even knew about the competitive scene, I decided I preferred no items. I just found it to be a deeper game without them, that required you to rely on your character's moves and your own skill more than the ability to go after items that appeared randomly. Luck also had it that I preferred 1v1 matches against humans. And yes, on balanced, non hazardous stages. It's all personal preference, IMO.

In terms of tourneys, if they want to keep things as skill based as possible, they shouldn't include items. Even though the smash ball moves around the stage, giving all players a chance to take a whack at it, it still may move in a manner that benefits one player over another. But again, it's all personal preference and opinion. That's why they're talking about having some tourneys with items.
 

rajendra82

Smash Rookie
Joined
Mar 18, 2008
Messages
21
The problem with Dragoon and Smash Balls is that they bring out the dreaded stupid exploding items... Dragoon I think is just random spawning.
Dragoon may spawn at random places, but the chances that all three parts will fall near only one player are 12.5%, with a 75% chance that one player will get two parts and the other gets the third. And you are foolish enough to see two parts being acquired by your opponent and not beat them out of him before the third falls on him, and can't dodge it while it is being aimed, you deserve to be hit with it (I speak from experience, because that is the fate that usually awaits me).

Smash Balls are a bit more controversial I suppose, but they too need skill to get with lighter characters having advantage is being able to get to them and get hits easier but heavier characters needing fewer hits to break them. The final smashes also vary in strength, so depending on damage level at the time it appears, and the character type one can choose to go after it, or choose to attack the opponent that is going after it.

These will result in a completely different style of competitive play than the classic Melee approach, with a lot of focus on getting into a position to score a chain of hits, but isn't it time that a new game require a new approach.

Why are Smash Balls and Dragoons considered stupid exploding items while there are a myriad of explosion going on all the time with some of the attacks from several of the characters.
 

itsameSMB

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 21, 2008
Messages
332
Location
Sheboygan, WI
I don't mean to be mean or patronizing, and may be wrong, but I hear that the item debate already happened for Melee - in 2004 or 2005.
I dunno, I only heard about this site fairly recently, so I wouldn't know of such a debate. Also, for the record, I'm not nessecarily agreeing on one point or another with this post. I'm mearly stating what I think happened that caused all this disagreement over items.
 
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