My impression about PM

[XxTDSxX]

I have played Project Melee since his first release.

I really appreciated (and I still do) the work of PM team and the changes that they have done to re-balance Brawl (L -cancel, WD, no tripping, no floating, no footstool jump, new moves, moonwalk, taunt cancel etc..) but IMHO It stills has 2 big problem:

1. The excessive falling speed of some characters: I noticed that characters move very well on the battleground (I mean above/on the stage) but off of the ground It looks like the character weighs like a whale, it goes down really fast and the recovery became useless (I think about and and their short recovery). Also the recovery must be fixed.
2. The size of characters/stages: The Melee (and SSB) stages have this problem: characters appear huge compared to the stage. Example: Dreamland, Yoshi story, Metal Cavern.

Sorry for my bad english and for using too often the word "character" (any synonyms will be appreciate )

 

[Kink-Link5]

Stages and character models match Melee size. Character fall speeds match Melee.

And the recovery issue has been addressed partially. Sonic and Charizard most notably have had their recoveries nerfed, as a start.

Fox and Falco, just as in Melee, have two of the best recoveries in the game. Fox's is already very long, and both have options far above the curve when recovering.

 

[F. Blue]

Wario's recovery is nerfed, Lucas' is buffed, Metaknight's is nerfed, Diddy Kong's is nerfed, Dedede's is buffed, Sonic's is nerfed, Charizard's is nerfed, Squirtle's is nerfed(?). Overall a nerf for recoveries.

My fear is that this game will be balanced so hard that every character will be a homogenous offensive rushdown character with average recovery.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Most of the characters are already pseudo-falcons that get absurd combos off single hits.

Pit use to be like Peach and Jigglypuff but naw **** that buff his kill setups buff his kill moves nerf his mobility buff arrow combos then nerf them because they're too stupid. And there, Falcon #14.

I'm mad as hell

 

[XxTDSxX]

Stages and character models match Melee size. Character fall speeds match Melee.

And the recovery issue has been addressed partially. Sonic and Charizard most notably have had their recoveries nerfed, as a start.

Fox and Falco, just as in Melee, have two of the best recoveries in the game. Fox's is already very long, and both have options far above the curve when recovering.

They match melee size, but Brawl has larger characters than melee and I think they are not in scale.

I dunno about Sonic and Charizard (I didn't played them in Brawl and I hardly ever chose them in PM), i will see.

Actually IMHO Fox recovery is acceptable, Falco's one is just too short.

Do you know how the gravity was set? (I mean if it was taken from Melee, if it's a result of an attempt to balance Gravity from the three Chapters of Super Smash or something else?)

 

[Yeroc]

The physics in Project M are directly translated from Melee, with Brawl characters designed to fall on that spectrum.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Character models have been resized in Project M so that they match Melee size.

And Falco still has one of the best recoveries in the game. The number of options he has supersedes any problems his recovery has with distance, because pretty much any other character trying to recover from long distances is going to get gimped anyway.

DI up for survival and his fall speed will counteract most knockback. If you're trying to DI down as a space animal your recovery problems are a result of your own fault.

 

[The_Guide]

Most of the characters are already pseudo-falcons that get absurd combos off single hits.

Pit use to be like Peach and Jigglypuff but naw **** that buff his kill setups buff his kill moves nerf his mobility buff arrow combos then nerf them because they're too stupid. And there, Falcon #14.

I'm mad as hell

How on earth does being able to combo into kill moves make characters Falcon clones? Pit and Falcon play nothing alike.

 

[Kink-Link5]

If you really got that out of what I said I don't feel like you really cared about the point in the first place.

 

[The_Guide]

...That was me asking you what you meant. I only spoke up because I wanted to know why you think the way you do. No need to be standoffish about it. :/

 

[Giygacoal]

1. The excessive weight of the characters: I noticed that characters moves very well on the battleground (I mean above/on the stage) but off of the ground It looks like the character weighs like a whale, it goes down really fast and the recovery became useless (I think about and and their short recovery). Also the recovery must be fixed
2. The size of characters/stages: The Melee (and SSB) stages have this problem: characters appears huge compared to the stage. Example: Dreamland, Yoshi story, Metal Cavern.

1. Weight isn't the same as falling speed.
2. The characters should be the right size by now.

 

[Kink-Link5]

I mean that a vast majority of characters are made to be momentum based, get kills early, and set up for those kills with so-to-say autocombos. There are characters against this model, like Zelda, Jigglypuff, and Toon Link, but they are definitely in the minority. Pit was given better kill options, easier ways to lead into kills, and easier ways to lead into the things that lead into kills. Where he was a pestering kind of character, he was made into a momentum based combo character akin to Falcon, Sheik, or Ike.

I fully understand that people find pestering character designs to be "boring." It doesn't mean I have to agree with that mentality though.

 

[The_Guide]

Do you feel that way just because of him losing his second glide? I definitely agree that the loss of that made camping with him inferior to doing the same with Puff and Peach, but he's still a character that can instantly change his aerial momentum without much commitment. He even has a projectile that can take nearly any trajectory you want it to, while stalling his falling speed. It may not be be Peach/Puff level, but its still effective. I think of a Pit as a balance between aggression and attrition based styles, and is a big reason for why I put him in the top ten for this game.

Imo, Peach and Puff are extremes, and too many characters reaching their level of attrition would reduce their uniqueness in the roster.

Btw, when I mentioned clones, I didn't mean it in the shoto sense. I was referring to their style of play, so we were actually on the same page all along.

 

[XxTDSxX]

1. Weight isn't the same as falling speed

The more a character weights, the faster he falls down. Or not?

 

[The_Guide]

The more a character weights, the faster he fall down. Or not?

Nope. For instance, Fox is one of the lightest characters in the game, yet falls extremely fast.

 

[XxTDSxX]

Oh ok you're right, my apologies, Obviously i was referring to the falling speed

 

[The_Guide]

Oh ok you're right, my apologies, Obviously i was referring to the falling speed

I really don't know what to say, then. As others in the thread have said, this is how things were in melee.

 

[Jevedor]

The more a character weights, the faster he falls down. Or not?

If you want to get into physics, weight in general doesnt make a thing fall faster, air resistance does. Shape plays more of a role really. Things that are aerodynamic will reach terminal velocity while descending faster because they have less air resistance. If you remove air resistance from the equation things pretty much fall at the same speed, except on the macro level where objects with their own gravity can pull toward the object they are falling into faster.

 

[Phaiyte]

I have played Project Melee since his first release.

I really appreciated (and I still do) the work of PM team and the changes that they have done to re-balance Brawl (L -cancel, WD, no tripping, no floating, no footstool jump, new moves, moonwalk, taunt cancel etc..) but IMHO It stills has 2 big problem:

1. The excessive weight of the characters: I noticed that characters moves very well on the battleground (I mean above/on the stage) but off of the ground It looks like the character weighs like a whale, it goes down really fast and the recovery became useless (I think about and and their short recovery). Also the recovery must be fixed.
2. The size of characters/stages: The Melee (and SSB) stages have this problem: characters appears huge compared to the stage. Example: Dreamland, Yoshi story, Metal Cavern.

Sorry for my bad english and for using too often the word "character" (any synonyms will be appreciate )

Fast falling is the epitome of this game and has a very huge basis on how and why this game is so fast paced.

Character sizes are pretty much the exact same scale as melee, it just seems different because it's in higher resolution, which is understandable to confuse. It may or may not look a little better for you if you switched to 4:3 aspect ratio in the graphics options. Chances are in tournaments that's what you'll be playing on anyway because most matches are played on old school tvs because they don't lag like cheap hd tvs do because of their piss poor processors. Some stages have larger or smaller sizes on both vertical and horizontal blast zones to give players more options for counterpicks and such. It's really one of those subtle things that makes the game so much more balanced than Melee. Hope that helped.

Also, fall speed doesn't really equate to weight. Bowser's the heaviest character in the game iirc and his fall speed is pretty abysmal compared to way lighter characters. It's probably easier to think about fall speed as how fast the character is in general without a whole lot of tech skill. That's still not entirely accurate but it gives an easier idea than weight does. Honestly if Bowser had super fast fall speed like Falco I'd quit Ganon forever and main only Bowser for the rest of my life. Man that would be so boss.

 

[Paradoxium]

Well falling speed contributes to a faster game pace, so it makes sense that a fast character like fox would fall fast. Just look at brawl, they slowed the falling speed which slowed down the whole game

 

[MrBigstuff]

If you want to get into physics, weight in general doesnt make a thing fall faster, air resistance does. Shape plays more of a role really. Things that are aerodynamic will reach terminal velocity while descending faster because they have less air resistance. If you remove air resistance from the equation things pretty much fall at the same speed, except on the macro level where objects with their own gravity can pull toward the object they are falling into faster.

But weight makes it easier to overcome air resistance, correct? A cinderblock will fall faster than a cinderblock sized pile of foam, but for weights (or should we say masses?) that are closer, they will fall at basically the same speed.

 

[9bit]

Anyway, in Smash Bros. games weight and fall speed are separate.

As for the OP, some characters have a fast fall speed for balance reasons. Some characters have really slow fall speed. The idea is to balance how easy it is for them to get combo'd and how long they can stay off stage.

To your second point, I've never really noticed or thought about the characters being abnormally large. They seem fine to me, but I guess it's a matter of opinion.

 

[Giygacoal]

But weight makes it easier to overcome air resistance, correct? A cinderblock will fall faster than a cinderblock sized pile of foam, but for weights (or should we say masses?) that are closer, they will fall at basically the same speed.

No, weight and shape are different factors. You could reshape the same amount of foam to allow either faster or slower falling speeds.

If you didn't already know, though, Bowser is supposed to be proportionally bigger than his Melee incarnation.

 

[Paradoxium]

Weight a sec (see what I did there) I thought weight did not at all effect falling speed, I thought all about surface area, shape, ect.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Weight, or rather, mass, does effect gravity in the real world by a miniscule amount. It is only noticeable with very large objects, but it's there. In a vacuum, gravity depends on the mass of the two objects and the distance between the centers of mass of the two objects.

With gas friction in account, the factors are the masses, distance, and object shapes.

F(g) = G ((First Mass)(Second Mass))/(Distance^2)

G is a shorthand for the constant 6.67384 × 10-11 m^3 kg^-1 s^-2

But because that is a very silly number to write and remember, calculators have it programmed in already and using "G" is accepted .

 

[Phaiyte]

Obviously Velocity = distance/time DUHHHHH

 

[MrBigstuff]

Note: I haven't taken Physics in a couple years, this is how I thought it worked. Please correct me if I am mistaken.
Air resistance is an upward force, and an object with more mass will have more downward force, which counteracts air resistance more, but this is relatively negligible unless there is a fairly large mass difference, like Styrofoam/concrete. Aerodynamics can help mitigate this, but only so far (a teardrop shaped chunk of styrofoam will still fall slower than a heavy, square chunk of concrete.)

 

[9bit]

Seriously guys? Seriously?

 

[Kink-Link5]

That was a very long winded way to say it, but yes, air resistance is in the opposite direction of gravity and cares mostly about surface area against weight.

Space Animals are obviously made of Obliquitum to explain their completely nonsensical weight and fall speed.

 

[Jevedor]

Yes mass is more at play than weight when it comes to overcoming air resistance. Weight tends to be indicative of mass so in most cases heavy objects stay in motion more efficiently. Its the whole rule of momentum thing, but its the "mass" that breaks the air resistance, not weight. Weight in this circumstance is as arbitrary as length and height.

So in the case of fox, I guess hes just one dense dude, cause he falls like a brick.

 

[leelue]

Oh ok you're right, my apologies, Obviously i was referring to the falling speed

It's just a pet peeve of many people, that many people correct. Don't worry about it.

 

[himynameisruss]

i understand that the sizes are supposed to match melee, but i feel like a giant when i play P:M. playing something like corneria, the stage feels half the size because the models seem so damn large.

 

[leelue]

I am pretty sure the models for both the stage and that characters are melee exact for the melee characters.

Also, stop playing on corneria, you'll shoot your eye out kid

 

[The_NZA]

I do agree that corneria feels way smaller in PM than melee. But that's the only stage for me that feels that way.