MUGG's Ness Matches

[MUGG]

Freeplay:

• MUGG (Ness) vs. lexxil (Falcon)
• MUGG (Ness) vs. lexxil (GaW)
• MUGG (Ness) vs. Yomedrath (Doc)

I know I have still much to learn ...
btw, Ness is my fun char. But I'm going to use him as my 2nd lowtier.

@Videos: Improvement and comments would be nice.
Thanx in advance!

 

[Yoichi]

You were trying too hard to be flashy in the GaW match, and not concentrating on the match. Also, the tail whip needs a little work.

Other than that, I thought you played considerably well. Very entertaining matches.

 

[Timotee]

Not bad at all, though I suppose I should go into more detail than that.

You really like the yyg, don't you? I'm glad you managed to get it a few times, but once people start CCing the yy, or just shielding the glitch, you'll find the time that gets put into getting it starts becoming a hindrance.

In the Falcon match, you airdodged up the to stage at one point when Ness would've grabbed the edge. Don't underestimate his sweetspot range, it's pretty nice. Against Falcon, it looked like you have good combo power, but didn't have the killing power and timing down. Just remember to keep an eye on the opponent's % to know when to shift from combo to kill mode. This weekend I did a sweet kill move on a recovering Falcon. Pk fire his recovery, then bat his sweetspot attempt. He teched right into the fire pillar, which stunned him long enough that ^B didn't grab the ledge. If you work on getting fast fallers off the edge, they become much easier pickings.

With G&W, I noticed you guarded yourself with PK thunder when falling, which is fine, but be careful about him catching on and filling the bucket. I found out how good it is at blocking sweetspots the hard way.

And the final thing I've got is that, in my opinion, you spam fair WAY too much. It's a good move, but it isn't the only move. Mixing things up with a ftilt or nair is a good way to throw an opponent off. But, nice Ness, and I hope you laughed at the G&W a ton for that finish.

 

[The_NZA]

Im going to give you less of a point by point suggestions page that i'd usually give the sage..mainly cuase im lazy.

Ness vs Cfalcon

1. Good job racking damage but you SUCK at killing him. Stop using the fair. Hes at such a high percent it does nothing. Instead of doing Fair out of shield, try Nair. That'll give you an opportunity to edgeguard. Also, when you went for that full jumped fair htat cost you teh second life..you could have just JC'd a grab. Learn to not always approach with jumps and when to approach on the ground. Also just a tip against cfalcons. Never wavedash backwards when they go for a shorthopped aerial (unless they are practically doing it stationary). Instead, Wavedashing towards them can actually make them miss. Finally, about the fair. You need to learn when to shorthop it. If you insist to do a fair ev en if hes at a high percent, you need to shfflc it, not DJC it. Its almost sad, now watching through th efull cfalcon vid. you NEVER shfflc your aerials. You only DJC them or full jump them.

2. I had a HUGE problem with what caused you to die twice: knowing where you cant up b recover from. Learn to DI away from the stage before you even touch up b cause if you dont go to an easy angle to recover from, then theres not even a point to hitting up B.

Ness vs GW
1. Again, yoru approach is sickeningly predictable. Learn to short hop fairs to surprise them, DJC nairs (while getting horizontal movemetn...at tricky ability thats possible to learn), dash dance to JC grab...all of these are things you need to try. And wavedash to bat is also a nice one. And ness has one of the best dash attacks. Learn to use it.

2. Dont pkthunder as an offesnive in the air..its a horrible idea

3. your yo yoing too much..there are very few instances wehn you should yo yo cause theres almost always something you can do thats better.

Your predictability practically cost you the round.

Ness vs Doc Mario

1. Dont use up b unnecessarily when the air dodge recovery exists. Geez! THIS IS A BIG ONE. I cant stress this enoguh. You do this about 5 times in the video.
2. Again...smae notes. Bad approach, too much DJC fair, try other approaches
this is another big one. You NEED to learn how to approach your opponent. i think its the biggest reason why you are losing. THat and you use your yo yo too much but mainly its this.
3. as fcor edgeguard game goes, remember Ness's bat >>> Dr. Mario's up b. Also, Pkflash works really well against dr. Mario. It works well against Mario, Dr. Mario, Luigi, Marth, and shiek.

 

[N.OW]

I watched the falcon match. Few tips for you...
Use more Ftilt! It is quick and has decent knockback to get falcon off the stage. If you are close to the edge use a forward throw to set up edgegaurding then bair til falcon dies.
You can get a lot of low percent cheap kills on falcon if you fthrow and edgeguard well.
Dont back throw, unless you know they will die, upthrow is almost always a better option on falcon.
Use Utilt repeadidly for an easy juggle.

 

[thesage]

Woah that's a fast Ness! What buttons do you use to Double Jump Cancel (DjC)? I'll comment eventually. I'm just really busy right now. Mabye this friday I'll do it. I watched the G&W video and you did pretty good, considering that G&W has the advantage in this matchup. I would try to meteor smash G&W more since his recovery is so predictable (not while he's actually doing his move though super priority there).

BTW, I don't know German, but if you'd like I could speak to you in French or Romanian (doubt you know that one though).

 

[MUGG]

I've just read your improvements,
1. I can't airdodge when I'm stunned ?! That's why I recovered with Ness up b 5 times in a row...
2. @ thesage: PLZ i suck at French XD
Romanian XD. no, I can understand your english ;D thx.

I DjC with double X! X, A, X!
X is also my main jump button, I don't use the controll stick or Y to jump (except for trying to double shine with fox).


Also big Thx @ The_NZA: That will help me!
I'm reading through this Thread later again.

 

[Rapid_Assassin]

I would try to meteor smash G&W more since his recovery is so predictable (not while he's actually doing his move though super priority there).

Not if he knows how to meteor cancel, since he'll probably make it back up anyway, and edgeguard you while you're out there.

1. I can't airdodge when I'm stunned ?! That's why I recovered with Ness up b 5 times in a row...

Wiggle the stick. Or use a fast aerial if you're high enough above the stage. then you can airdodge again..

 

[thesage]

If he meteor cancels it I still think he's screwed if you grab the edge. Whatever, I hardly play G&W.

MUGG est-ce tu voudrais que je parle francais avec toi? If you understand my english I prefer that since it's much faster. Whichever you prefer. I'll get my comments up eventually. Latin works too lol.

 

[The_NZA]

Easiest way to edgeguard gw is either to go for the dair like sage suggested (if the Gwatch tries to sweetspot). If hes not going for the sweetspot just get on the stage and go for the bat.

also, when your stunned if you press left right left on the control stick you stpo being stunned. After this you can air dodge.

 

[Rapid_Assassin]

If he meteor cancels it I still think he's screwed if you grab the edge. Whatever, I hardly play G&W.

Depends how far below the stage he is, and how far away from it. If you're grabbing the edge, and he's close enough, he can go for the stage itself (to land on it). Remember that his vertical recovery is insane, but horizontal recovery isn't too good.

 

[MUGG]

@thesage: non, je deteste cette langue. Pourtant merci pour redemander^^
English FTW!!!1

And as i said, I'll look through this thread later and will make new videos or something....

 

[thesage]

Doesn't English = German with weird spelling changes? I'll get my comments up tomorrow.

 

[MUGG]

?
Don't know what you want to say.
But doesn't matter, i can clearly understand everone's english here...
and if it's not like that, I'll use a dictionary^^

sry for this offtopic post, but i wanted to clear this case^^
Will you comment now or not?

- MUGG

 

[technomancer]

Your Ness is pretty sound technically, but you were leaving yourself open almost all of the time. Here's a few things that you need to work on, based on the Captain Falcon vid:

1) Upthrow->DjC Up-air->Repeat, or DjC Back air. That is your throw game vs. Falcon, Fox, and Falco. If he's too high for that you effectively work you can probably full jump and back air him anyway. You must get good and quick with this.
2) Fair leads to grab. At low percents get all of your sparkles in for the stun hit at the end, at high percents just do the opening ones, and that'll get you the grabs.

Those are the biggest things you seem to need practice on because they are the most effective. Work on moving faster when you hit the ground (look at videos of top pros with any character to get the timings), and make sure you're L-cancelling everything. (You were missing some, and others your shield came up, which I think is causing you to be hesitant with your movement timing).

 

[thesage]

Comments for Falcon vid:

You had him under control in your first stock, but then things went down after your first death. You could've survived that if you waited a little later. I like your use of wavedash, but try to Dash dance more vs. falcon. Use pk fire if he tries to approach you with his b-moves. You're fast, but I think you could be much faster if you used more djc's and wavedashes to approach. You DjC a lot, but not in the right situations. Blech... it's hard for me to explain this since I don't have it down right now. Your Ness is better than my Ness, but not by much (I've improved a lot since the last videos!).

G&W vid:
Nice yyg-ing. That's so funny. Nice music btw. The way you DjC at 0:41 is really smart. DjC'ing like that is called swing jumping. That's what I was suggesting that you should do in the last vid. When you try to do a descent from heaven, only do it if your far way (horizontally) from the opponent or he's in the air. You'll get punished otherwise. Nice edgehogging, but you really should try to punish him for his lag. G&W's up-b is pretty laggy. STOP SD'ING BY SLIDNG UP THE EDGE IMPROPERLY. If you don't know how to do it then don't try it. Move away from the edge and then use pk thunder. Don't feel bad about losing. G@W is one of Ness' bad matchups.

Vs. Doc Mario:

NICE edgegauding on your first kill! Get better at recovering with pk thunder. Don't always go for the yyg. Up smash is laggy and has bad start up time. Don't try to absorb doc's pills. Use upsmash or ftilt (i think, not sure about that one). You really need to learn how to sweetspot with pk thunder! Don't get to cocky once you have a jacket equipped. Bat reflect doc's pills. He basically owns you at the end, no offence. Don't sheild the pills. Learn to recover better and use the airdodge.

In general, you're better than me, but I'm better than you at recovering. Combo better, and recover better and you'll be a very good Ness.

 

[MUGG]

Well it's time to thank everyone for the feedback.
I'll get better.

@thesage: while I was bored and tried to beat Event 51 with Ness with only one stock, I've learned how to PK Thunder downward ^_^

I'm going to make more Ness videos and Ylink videos.
Ylink is my lowtier main...

 

[The_NZA]

i disagree with thesage about certain aspects. I think you DJC TOO MUCH when you could benefit from mroe shuffle. I think its also less about how you DJC then what you put in it and right now its just ALL fair. Learn to Nair and Bair out of it...but my commetns already explained how i feel, so you can refer to those.

Oh also, thesage, i disagree with your advice about swingjumping against CFALCON. Swing jumping is very mixed between defensive and offensvie but the main thing is if you want to swing jump then you have to be controlling hte game. He has to be reacting to YOUR moves, not the other way aorund. And the thing is...Cfalcon matches Ness is almost NEVER controllin the game. Cfalcon is, because Most Cfalcon players are just flying everywhere shffling Nairs and knees and stuff. By the time you try to short hop and go backwards, theres already going to be a knee in your face. Thats just my experience. VS cfalcon i generally try to stay more grounded unless given the chance to enter the air without being vulnerable (i.e. during comboing and out of throws ill enter the air)

*EDIT*

Sage, wat are you talking about. He doesn't swing jump there. Swing jump is pretty much defined by a shorthop (usually in one way) and DJCING your second jump immediately after to give yourself a push in an opposite direction. I.e. Ness short hops backwards and then Double jumps to a fair forward so it looks like he jumped backward but RIGHT AFTER he propels forward with an attack.

 

[toasty]

Oh also, thesage, i disagree with your advice about swingjumping against CFALCON. Swing jumping is very mixed between defensive and offensvie but the main thing is if you want to swing jump then you have to be controlling hte game. He has to be reacting to YOUR moves, not the other way aorund. And the thing is...Cfalcon matches Ness is almost NEVER controllin the game. Cfalcon is, because Most Cfalcon players are just flying everywhere shffling Nairs and knees and stuff. By the time you try to short hop and go backwards, theres already going to be a knee in your face. Thats just my experience. VS cfalcon i generally try to stay more grounded unless given the chance to enter the air without being vulnerable (i.e. during comboing and out of throws ill enter the air)

*EDIT*

Sage, wat are you talking about. He doesn't swing jump there. Swing jump is pretty much defined by a shorthop (usually in one way) and DJCING your second jump immediately after to give yourself a push in an opposite direction. I.e. Ness short hops backwards and then Double jumps to a fair forward so it looks like he jumped backward but RIGHT AFTER he propels forward with an attack.

agreed.

haha. another thing that I recently learned about Ness Vs. CF. If CF is at low damage [under 10-15%], you can chain 2, maybe 3 [if he starts at 0%] uthrows and the 4 will barely miss [though I haven't tried doing a dash->full-WD->grab yet, I've just been running between throws] since he'll have a chance to tech but maybe if you get there soon enough you can do it...you're better off following that 2nd or 3rd throw with an aerial [whichever you choose to do is obviously situational]...a cool thing to do with this though is if you end up anywhere near the edge after the 2nd or 3rd grab [like I said, if he started with anything higher than 10-15% don't go for the 3rd grab, go with an aerial]...do a f-throw off the edge and then edgeguard.

OH!!! speaking of which. a lot of CF's learn to master the art of sweetspotting his recovery from below the ledge to avoid any easy-fsmash edgeguards [and that goes for CF Vs. pretty much any character]....now I haven't spent a whole lot of time going through all the guides on these boards so forgive me if this has been posted already...but I really wish people appreciated the up-smash edgeguard more. blah, anyway, before I ramble lemme get back to my point.

the second you see CF double jump and then go somewhat far below the stage to recover, you're spaced far enough away from the edge that you can charge your usmash with the yoyo hanging over the edge spinning. CF will barely get nipped by the yoyo as he's just below the ledge and [I don't know CF well enough to know how quickly he can recover from a weak hit like that] and it's been my experience that by the time he can recover, he's too far down and he'll BARELY miss the ledge...hooray!

oh and about PK Fire against those Forward-Bs? CF is fast. If he's good, he'll mindgame you into creating an opening for his Forward-B, by the time you react and try to PK Fire, Ness's slow *** is toast and all you can hope for is mythical noobgoblins to tell CF that a knee after a Forward-B will NEVER work. instead, either crouch cancel/tech the hit and then do as you please, or if you feel you have enough space, wavedash back and then bat.

this post is entirely too long to be about only three moves. haha...hope this helps at some point?

 

[MUGG]

Sure this helps!
ok... I've already done some of this improvement stuff and will present new match videos sooner or later.

 

[JesiahTEG]

you look like your having fun in the match

 

[toasty]

you look like your having fun in the match

That's cuz he's using Ness

 

[KrulNess]

if you don't mind - i'm going to focus on the Doc match....because i think its easy to point out things in that match

first of all, that doc has a killer edgeguard....meaning you get clobbered and its not that hard to avoid it. instead of focusing on getting back on the stage with your thunder2, attempt to hit the ledge....in other words, aim for the stage instead of getting back on the stage. the fantastic thing about doing that, is that the opponent can't hit you, unless they have a killer arial that hits down funkiliy. advantage two is that if they attempt to edgeguard (and your opponent was naturally doing that) then within the proper frames they will get blasted as you grab the ledge.

i sorta agree with sage on not blocking the pills, but i like to absorb them, and there were a few times where it would have been more appropriate to absorb them

nice edgehog on the first kill

and you shouldn't have lost that match...somehow you just lost what you were attempting when doc had 1 stock...what happened?

other than that, I think you did fine...and that you're not bad at all


can't wait to see improvement!

 

[Ademisk]

Your Ness is a little better than mine. I still can't get my wavedash and L-cancelling as good as yours is. All these suggestions really helped me too because I have similar problems. It's hard to not do an Fair even when I'm fully attempting to do an nair, because I don't want to lose the forward momentum, but I also want to space the attack perfecty, too often I'll hesitate for half a second and the enemy will hit me right before I can press the A button for the nair. I do agree that it's better in high % situations. Also, I don't see much of a difference between Shffling and djcffling, could someone explain it?

 

[Timotee]

Shffling is simply short hopping, then going through the motions, whereas for DjC you double jump, usually almost as quickly as possible, then do your attack. If you're fast enough, you'll be pulling out moves faster than if you just SH. I suppose the best way to see it is just go into practice and try short hopped aerials, then try DjC'd ones, and see the differences.

 

[Ademisk]

I know what a DjC is, my question is, someone was saying Shffled Aerials were better than djcffled aerials and I don't see any difference, except that if you get hit out of a shffled aerial you can do your second jump to evade combos. Is there anything else which seperates the two?

 

[Timotee]

DjCffling aerials is faster, and you can use the swing jump property of the DjC to change momentum. That's all I can think of.

 

[toasty]

aside from the obvious speed difference, it's easier to hit an opponent who's on the ground with a DJCed aerial than a SHFFLed aerial [I don't know what your DJC speed is like, but if you get it down fast enough, Ness should look like he doesn't even leave the ground. you'll be able to string multiple attacks together a lot more easily, so long as you L-cancel that is.]

 

[Ademisk]

I can DjC as fast as I need to, the problem is making sure I L-cancel. But my question was answered, I went back over the posts and saw that I misunderstoof what the person was saying. Thanks for the help