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MU Thread v2 | PM 3.5 Ness Matchup Discussion |

Bestrin

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Can't really edgeguard him either.

His throws kill much, much lower than Ness (M2 needs ~115% for guarenteed, Ness needs ~140% for guarenteed)

Hard to force M2 to approach (his weakness) because Ness's main projectile (fire) is slow and easy to reflect.

And obviously very hard to fight M2's long disjointed hitboxes with Ness's short melee range.

Only glaring advantage Ness has is his speed.

Main damage will come from D-throw to Fair, and getting in a few fires.



Take what I say with a large grain of salt. I have lots of experience with this matchup, but only at a mid-tier level of skill.
 

The_NZA

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Can't really edgeguard him either.

His throws kill much, much lower than Ness (M2 needs ~115% for guarenteed, Ness needs ~140% for guarenteed)

Hard to force M2 to approach (his weakness) because Ness's main projectile (fire) is slow and easy to reflect.

And obviously very hard to fight M2's long disjointed hitboxes with Ness's short melee range.

Only glaring advantage Ness has is his speed.

Main damage will come from D-throw to Fair, and getting in a few fires.



Take what I say with a large grain of salt. I have lots of experience with this matchup, but only at a mid-tier level of skill.
On bad DI, fair can do some damage and link as you can see all over this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=2XQN08_ILwU&t=248

Granted, you can't necessarily expect Mewtwo to DI this way consistently or play like a scrub.

Watch out for the disjoints though or this will happen to you:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SK6vccQrAzY


I'm going to go over my own footage later and I can tell you what was working or did not work.
 

TSM ZeRo

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I've hard from Awestin that Mewtwo is very easy for Ness and Mew2king himself said that MU is easy for Ness. Can anyone give me some pointers on this one?
 

DMG

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Pointers as Ness? Hmm... I think watching Awestin vs M2K would help (I believe the set was recorded, I remember seeing it live on-stream). I don't know exactly what is super good for Ness, but I know that a lot of regular Mewtwo "stuff" is much weaker against Ness. Using Tail attacks is less reliable, because PK Fire will eat it. Ness has decent killpower and combo potential from throws, while Mewtwo doesn't have as much guaranteed. Ness can outrange everything with PK Fire from a distance/angle, so you can't just resort to staying grounded and tilting, or Bairing a lot. If you teleport in, he has good enough "get off me" choices like Nair/Fair/Dair.

I dunno how much I trust Jason's opinion of it, but I do trust Awestin's opinion of the MU since we have a pretty competent Mewtwo in DFW and I'd assume they play vs each other. I'd guess Ness stifles a lot of Mewtwo gameplay, and does it in ways that Mewtwo can't easily fix. Can't just make your tail even more of a sword, or reflect PK Fire easier, etc
 
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The_NZA

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If it's easy for Ness, its purely on the basis of the power of fair.Pretty much fair a lot and fair into fair. It's how you maxmize damage against mewtwo.

AT kill percents, fair to upair can work, and pkfire is also good. But most of everything else Ness has loses to mewtwo's tail, and mewtwo has the mobility to get in position to use the tail when he wants.

I'm not sure if I agree with Jason, since mewtwo has a lot going for him that can mess up Ness (range, mobility, amazing edgeguarding on ness), but the one thing I'll say looking back against my own set against m2k is that fairing into more fairing is usually the right decision at combo percents, and can link reliably into kill moves in the 70-100 range.
 

choknater

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that's probably because of his set with ESAM at xanadu

i don't think pk fire is that powerful against mewtwo

idk i think mewtwo wins because the tail whip spacing is really really hard to deal with
 

reslived

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Alright. So MK is super free against Ness imo. Until he gets you off stage. Then god help you.....

Neutral game - At low percents he's going to look for a grab. This is simply a fact. MK's almost fish for grabs at low percents because they get pretty easy tech chases off of them. Luckily, Ness has some amazing anti-grab tools. As usual, PKF and Fair will be your best friends in this matchup. This is one of the only matchups where I will use grounded pkf, because 1) mk tends to go for grounded approaches and 2) mk's dash dance is terrible. If MK begins short hopping over your grounded pkf, then he will try to approach with nair or fair, which you can beat out with fair. Do a lot of fair, do a lot of landing pkf.

Combo game - Dthrow is fantastic in this mu. Dthrow -> magnet -> fair if they DI away. Dthrow -> bair if they DI behind. At mid to high percents, if they DI away, you get a dthrow chaingrab. They will then start DI'ing behind you, and you get a free bair. Since mk is so light, this means he dies at ~80-90. It's silly how early he dies if you play correctly. Uair/Bair are godlike finishers in this mu, since youre not going to get many dair spikes cuz of his awk weight/fall speed.

Defense game - be campy, use pkf/fair when he's at your level. When he's above you, he will dair. This is simply a fact. Nair. Nair all day. Nair trades with MK's dair and you stay in a great position. If you get grabbed at mid-high percent hes going to look for a Down+B finisher; DI down-in and mix up your techs so he can't chase you. If you are above MK at any point, he can uair string you for days. Use magnet to stall and find a way around him to a safe landing. MK's Uair is a little laggy so if he misses by a little you can dair through him.

Edgeguarding - If he recovers low, you can't do much about it. Shuttle Loop (MK Up+B) is hard to predict and spike, set up PK Flash at the edge or drop the yoyo, standard stuff. If he recovers high, he can't do much if you run out and fair him. Also setting up PK Flash when hes coming back to stage is super easy. Bait an action and move PK Flash slightly for free kill. If he shuttle loops early, his best option is to try and glide attack you, and this has a lot of range. Bait it and shield then oos punish.

Offstage - Ok, so this part sucks. If he's obviously chasing you, recover mad far from the stage. He can't go out as far as you think, so he'll be in a rough spot trying to block you. As soon as he starts chasing you offstage just drift away from the stage, out of his sword range. If he's in this position he can't really stop your recovery. If he knocks you off and he waits on stage, you're screwed. If you're recovering low, he can just charge and fsmash and hit you when you miss the sweetspot (i suck at low angle sweetspots T_T). If you recover high, either sweetspot ledge or just aim high and hope.

My 2-0 set against Squeak ^_^: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hkmZWxEr05E
 

MysteryRevengerson

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I can confirm that Res did in fact almost beat K9 (I was in his pool) in case there are any naysayers :p

Does Ness' Fair really outspace MK Fair?

Oh, also. Because of Ness' weight/falling speed you can a lot of the time jump out/do a move when D-throw
 
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choknater

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ness fair vs mk fair spacing sounds about even

if one has larger range, it's probably by a very small margin. in this case, the advantage comes down to character movement and move duration.
 

Soft Serve

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I think an important thing to note is that the only Move MK has that can clank is his DA, so you'll be trading a lot and he even though his sword is as big as ike's he can't swat pk fires and pk thunders away. You'll also be trading with him a lot because of it so you can try to nair/dair out of his combos. MK has really good movement traps imo and he controls space really well, so if you're going to platform camp be really careful.
 

Bryonato

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yeah mk is at one of those weights where Ness gets a ton of mileage out of a dthrow.

DI away = CG, Magnet -> Fair -> regrab, djc/sh fair -> regrab, mag -> uair, mag -> nair, mag -> dair -> jab reset

DI behind/up = bair, djc uair strings, weak hit nair -> dair, fh fair -> djc fair

SO MANY OPTIONS
 
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DMG

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Ness MU's

You either win or lose

Hold your applause, it's time for me to go save other character MU threads

But really, this makes me sad :( Little with Twinkle Toes need MU knowledge spread!
 
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Soft Serve

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I only play good characters now, so once the discussion rotates around to Fox or Diddy I can chime in something that actually contributes to the discussion.
Until then, keep calm and PK fire-on.
 

SoniCraft

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What I don't want this thread to be over! The only reason I don't contribute anything is because I don't have anything to contribute. :( I've only been to two tournaments and I've lost every match I've played as Ness. I'm depending on this thread to help me get better!
 

Bryonato

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Just gonna lay it out here: if people are not going to contribute then I'm not going to waste my time keeping this up to date.
Take it or leave it

That said, here's my contribution for now.
Edgeguarding MK is relatively tough since he has so many options between all of his jumps and all of is B moves. Generally though, you can judge what option he's going to use based on what he does.
I secondary MK so I'll try to provide what I can.

High- obv the most difficult to edgeguard since he has all options available to him. Usually in this situation it's best imo to try and bait out a dair. Sitting at a 45 degree angle from him is very tempting and if you can get him to commit its a free nair since nair trades or even a uair if he's at high % (though he would be pretty stupid to commit to a dair at that %). Also if you just jump out and fair MK doesn't have much of an answer considering that you're spacing it right. Edgeguarding him in this situation how every is definitely not free. He's probably going to make it back.

mid- If the MK is directly (more of less) horizontal from the ledge, his main options are going to be shuttle loop and drill rush. If he loops, or you know he's going to loop, sending a pkflash right at the ledge can be effective. Don't be afraid of detonating it a little early before the full charge as the hitbox is pretty huge. Drill rush has to finish out it's animation before it sweetspots, so simply camping near the ledge and then throwing out a djc dair right next to the ledge will hit him due to its amazing disjoint. His drillrush throws out a little popup hitbox near the end of the animation though, so be wary of that. If he EVER tornados, it's super awful and any of Ness' aerials will beat/trade with it, granted you can hit him.

Low- In this case the MK is probably going to either use dimensional cape or reverse shuttle loop. Grabbing the ledge and taking advantage of LJC is bar none the best option here. Grabbing the ledge removes the possibility of a DC sweetspot. If he does reverse shuttle loop, you'll be surprised how much mileage you'll get out of ledge drop dair/nair/rising dair and nair. And if the MK doesn't land on a plat/cancel of a plat you can get a free ljc fair/magdash/nair/whatever into a grab. Or just LJC bair -> dair
 
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Soft Serve

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Crouch Canceling is also stupid important verses MK.Ftilt, Fair, Dair, weak Nair, jabs, dtilt, all CC-able.

Ness has limited CC options though? CC-dtilt is CC able, dsmash is decent. If you get good at the timing CC-ftilt is godlike, so is CC f-smash.

Try not to get grabbed, I would opt to DI his d-throws up at low percents and just take the hits depending on your stage situation, DIing out of combos is abit easier than being tech chases and re-grabbed indefinitely. If I'm ill kill range I'ld DI down and hope to read his kill move accordingly though, watch out for D-throw IDC and tech chase>crouch Dsmash.

And if you're playing K9 and he does his Fsmash thing, just pk-fire him.
 
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fAtomsk

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I'm sorry Bry that not enough people are contributing, and I would do so for the Meta Knight MU if I could; however, I specifically requested this MU because all I do is lose in it against people who have lots of experience against Ness, so I don't think I have much to offer. That being said, if we do end up doing Mario next, as per reslived's request, I will write an in depth post for you with an accompanying VOD of me in tournament.

Try not to be discouraged, a lot more people need to read this thread as a resource than there are people with the skill, experience and articulation to contribute
 

Bryonato

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I'm sorry Bry that not enough people are contributing, and I would do so for the Meta Knight MU if I could; however, I specifically requested this MU because all I do is lose in it against people who have lots of experience against Ness, so I don't think I have much to offer. That being said, if we do end up doing Mario next, as per reslived's request, I will write an in depth post for you with an accompanying VOD of me in tournament.

Try not to be discouraged, a lot more people need to read this thread as a resource than there are people with the skill, experience and articulation to contribute
well for example someone in your situation could say:
"hey guys i struggle with this MU because of x, y, and z. how should i respond to X and what kind of things beat y?"

sparks conversation and discussion
 
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fAtomsk

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well for example someone in your situation could say:
"hey guys i struggle with this MU because of x, y, and z. how should i respond to X and what kind of things beat y?"

sparks conversation and discussion
Duly noted. I'm rather new to all this, so thanks for the advice. I'll think about it and hopefully post tomorrow
 

fAtomsk

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Ok, so, today I did really well in Exposure 10, although I didn't get as much recorded play as I wanted and no stream time, whatsoever. What is relevant to this forum post though is that I also played a TON of friendlies with the local D3 who always counter picks Meta Knight against Ness, who had previously been kicking my butt, and am starting to get a good grasp on the match up. I took your guys' advice and began experimenting from that starting point.

To start, most of the tone of the discussion so far has been about how free MK is for Ness until you get off stage. I don't think this is quite true, MK seems to me to have a kit that is highly synergistic, gives him great offensive / approach options and in the right hands is just a devastating experience for anyone on the receiving end.

Neutral game: Against a truly competent MK there are not a ton of options here. This state of the game is going to be all about speed, movement and mixup. MK's combination of high speed, small stature and multiple jumps makes catching him in a PKF difficult, to say the least. Not to mention one of the few characters capable of consistently punishing poorly spaced / timed PKF's. It IS one your important tools in the MU, but don't expect it to do as much work as you may be used to, especially if your opponent is knowledgeable of and respects Ness's options. The threat of PKF is just as important here as actually hitting with it, forcing your opponent into options and patterns you can intercept. Fair is your other big tool in the neutral, but it isn't free. I'm pretty sure Fair will lose to or trade with well timed and spaced aerials from MK. This is where your speed and tech skill come into play, baiting the MK into making mistakes and punishing with a move that starts your combo tree. Patience, along with skill, is key in the neutral and will be rewarded as Ness's proactive tools pale in comparison to MK's, but Ness's defensive and more importantly REACTIVE tools can win you the game.

Combo game: Once your patience has paid off into a confirmed hit, it is time to change gears and go full throttle hard in the paint. Punish MK like he left you and your mom when you were young and never paid any welfare or even called at Christmas. Know when your combos end, but don't let up one second before they do. Yeah downthrow leads into downthrow when they DI away, but if they're any good they'll figure that out. Hit that SH Bair when they DI behind, but don't let up! You don't want to have to win the neutral state 3 more times for your bair to finally kill. Sprint after that tech chase, waveland or dair that platform they landed on, or proceed to edge guarding if you've thrown / knocked them offstage. Don't give them an inch until it's truly neutral again. MK is a character that wants to be the one applying pressure, not the one receiving it. His tech roll is kinda poopy, and he's the right combination of hit stun, weight and fall speed to just carry him all over the map if you don't miss a read and if you know all your options. This is a match up where I like offensive magnet linking together combo pieces. Your objective should be to make your opponent afraid, and second guess himself so he'll be more likely to make mistakes next stock. But, for god's sake, don't pursue some jank continuation that will get you punished. If you're lucky he'll try and punish your combo as you realize it's over, and then you can start a new one. If he goes home and posts on the MK forum complaining about the MU you've done your job right.

Edgeguarding: This is a joke, there is no edge guarding MK. Seriously, I'm not being a baby, I don't even care because you don't need it. MK is so light, you basically want to blast line him from stage. My MK will often go high with his jumps, then teleport somewhere over the stage and then Dair to the ground and L-Cancel. If you waste your time trying to punish that, which you can't, then they will have achieved the neutral state they are desiring, or you will get hit and they will combo you. They have so many other options, that it's not even funny. IMO, your best bet is to just threaten an edge guard attempt, maybe force one of their options and be ready to try and pressure them or punish the landing. Often times, I won't even care about trying to get a real edge guard but just spam them with PKT1 which they can't clank with because of the nature of MK's sword. This is highly viable since you aren't even looking to get their percent that high before any big hit or back throw will kill them. You might even pop them back onto the stage or a platform in a stupid way and get a tech chase opportunity. If you make them feel like they are being harassed in their element, the sky, you will continue the psychological warfare and put them on tilt, and get those stocks.

Small side note, Ness likes to kill off the top, but MK does that better than us. Even though MK is light, he also is a Fast Faller, so it's a little harder to kill of the top than sides. Bair and back throw are premium kill options, unless they are high up already when you land that up air.

Recovering: Another reason not to do real edge guarding. MK wants you off stage so bad. Anyone who doesn't believe the "Ness's up B is free, don't challenge it" bologna will quickly realize how good a simple edged Down / Forward Smash is against PKT2. My advice is to mix up sweet spotting the ledge from above, looking like you're going for the ledge from below but actually going more straight up and trying to land on a platform above them, and just recovering way too high. Nothing is really that safe, this is just gonna be based on reading your opponent's habits and mixing up your options. If they jump off stage to try and get you, use Mag stall shenanigans to evade an attack and go above them, or FF under them and dip back up and get back on stage. They still might get you, but *shrugs* that's MK's thing. My REAL advice is to not get knocked off stage.

Stage Choice: As is usually the case with Ness, this is a lot of preference. First ban for me is usually gonna be Dreamland. MK just utilizes the large stage and far blast lines better than Ness, who usually has the better recovery (distance) than his opponent. After this, your main concern is gonna be getting to a stage with close blast lines. This makes his edge guards a little better, but your kill options WAY better / earlier. If you feel your tech chasing, especially onto platforms is very strong, aim for YS, but settle for BF or FoD. If you want an uninhibited Aerial PKF game, SV is probably the optimum balance between unobtrusive platform and close blast lines. FD is a bit big but possesses no platforms to get in the way, and PS2 is medium sized with medium amount of platform play. As for counter picks, GHZ is premium. Close sides, high top and a flat stage with a mostly irrelevant platform. WW is super tiny, and you may want to play there, but I think the plats are a little awkward for MK. Ban Priority: DL, SW, YI, PS1

Spread and extra stuff
: In light of recent progress, I'm inclined to concede it could be as high as 45:55, but it may still be as low as 20:80, as the really good players around here don't main him, so I can't be sure. I, and many of the very skilled and well regarded pros that I've discussed him with, view MK as a very high tier character in Project M, and he has a lot of advantages over most other characters. Like Falco, he is a glass cannon, but for slightly different reasons. If you greatly outclass and out play your opponent, characters like MK will seem like a joke. But, I challenge you all to MM very skilled players who main or second MK. I'm not trying to brag, but I think that I've held my own pretty well for a newer player against some really big names. But, D1 was consistently 3 and 4 stocking me back in April with MK because he's so good and has a Ness main back home to play against. I might do better now, but I wouldn't be that surprised if I didn't. And, if your opponent thinks that running straight at you, attempting to grab and down throw, and then fishing for a random dimensional cape hit, I don't think that qualifies for discussion.
 

Bryonato

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^^^ quality post.

Don't ever take MK to Wario Ware btw. He is an absolute god on that stage. I find vs mk it's best to ban any combination of WW, YI Brawl, Lylat and Dreamland
 

Soft Serve

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I could write pages of talk about The diddy MU and proper Item play that ness should employ in it, but its so much MU specific knowledge its so hard to remember unless you practice the MU all the time.

I think the MU is around even, 60/40 Diddy on some stages, its not too bad for you guys as your punish game against diddy is godlike and dair should always go through up-b no matter what angle he comes from.
 

choknater

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mk's speed makes him challenging

but to simplify it in my head, i just think of the angles that he can approach and try to deter/avoid them.

his approaches are nair, spaced fair, dash attack, dash grab, angled dair, uair from below

his dash dance game is strong but ofc we have pk fire to combat that. i think of him like pikachu: he kinda has to commit to approach so if i keep a strong defense with fair/pkf against his many angles, i can usually win. he's so light too and dies easily, so he doesn't stress me out that much
 
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