MU Thread v2 | PM 3.5 Ness Matchup Discussion |

[SoniCraft]

You guys said that ZSS is a lot like the Falcon MU, but we haven't discussed him here yet, so I'm not sure what that exactly means. I also don't know what LJC means, so can you explain that to me?

Also, I suggest Ganon for the next MU discussion, since I got bodied by him in my last tournament. (Getting back on stage is a real pain in the butt)

 

[Bryonato]

LJC = ledge jump cancel. When you press jump while still hanging on the ledge you'll do a ledge jump, and you can djc that ledge jump while retaining your invincibility frames. You can throw out safe ljc fairs, dairs, nairs, etc. It gives Ness a quick and safer way back on stage and a way for Ness to punish people who overshoot the ledge when recovering.

A cool thing you can do for example is LJC -> FF Bair (bair will autocancel) -> shield before invic. wears off. Remind me about Ganon at the end of the week when I open up voting.

 

[choknater]

for the sake of ease of understanding i'm gonna just call it a ledge jump DJC for now

 

[Bryonato]

ljc makes perfect sense though

 

[The_NZA]

If you want to make it a 5 letter acronym with 5 syllables, be my guest. I'm just going to call it LJC as well.

 

[choknater]

haha ok maybe it will catch on for me

just sounds too hipster still

 

[Bryonato]

bro this aint some fobble **** cmon now.
back on topic, do we have anything out of uthrow on zss?

 

[The_NZA]

bro this aint some fobble **** cmon now.
back on topic, do we have anything out of uthrow on zss?

I'm gonna say doubtful. I don't even think we have uthrow stuff on Lucas, and i'm sure he is much more fast fallie.

 

[The_NZA]

Relevant Info:

ZSS's fall speed is tied with Ike:
16-17 out of the whole cast: Ike, ZSS : 2.05

ZSS is low weight:
http://i.imgur.com/wcc7jgu.png

(tied with toonlink, ivysaur, diddy, wolf, and roy)

 

[Bryonato]

ok cool. didnt know if we could do something like uthrow -> weakhit nair -> .... from low%. That chart is super helpful, granted it's accurate

 

[The_NZA]

Should be. The poster put it up a weeks ago on reddit, saying it was a correction to his previous list which had inconsistencies. Seeing as it is a correction, I presume it is accurate.

 

[Bryonato]

Do you have any insight on the MU from your brief experience at the last SG?

 

[SoniCraft]

Thanks for the response Bryon. I'm all for calling it LJC as well. Just for future reference, I'm more on the scrub side of the spectrum, so if I seem to be taking more than giving in this thread, then it's because of that. ^ ^

 

[Bryonato]

dude dont worry about it. any input from anyone is welcome

 

[choknater]

so i actually practiced the LJC, it's pretty good. i want to master the timing so that i can have forward momentum while i'm doing it. so far i can only do a neutral one.. but i just haven't practiced it much yet.

it's a similar speed to the ledge jump aerials that fox and falcon have, maybe even a lil faster. so i'd imagine it would have the same function, except with more invincibility. overall a great tech, so thanks for telling me about it

 

[Bryonato]

Who would you guys like to see this week in the MU thread? Forgot to open it up for voting earlier

 

[SouthernGent]

I suggest either Peach or Mewtwo maybe even Captain Falcon but if we are going by votes than I would prefer Captain Falcon.

 

[choknater]

i wanna talk ike

lol

 

[SouthernGent]

I'm gonna say doubtful. I don't even think we have uthrow stuff on Lucas, and i'm sure he is much more fast fallie.

yeah we don't really have any up throw stuff but we have down throw chain grab

 

[The_NZA]

Not sure if I said it, but I actually think bat reflect is a good option against ZSS's laser. Her laser is slow and much like a lucario who uses aura sphere to cover his approach, a Bat will reflect hte projectile and immediately cover hte area ahead of himself. Seeing as how ZSS can only really dash out of laser, it can sometimes catch an uncautious ZSS at best and turn her projectile against her at worst.

 

[SouthernGent]

confirmed: bat reflect laser->charged bat too broken pls nerf Ness

 

[Bryonato]

Not sure how I feel about that though since a good ZSS will likely dash right in tune or in front of the laser and could likely punish. Idk

 

[Bryonato]

Well since we only had about 1 vote for each character i'll just choose from those given. CF will be the character in discussion this week. I'll edit this post later with my writeup

UGH I TRIPLE POSTED LOL. JUST GOING TO DO WRITEUP IN NEXT POST AUUUGH

 

[Bryonato]

oops. didnt mean to post this but w/e just going to do writeup here.

Neutral: Falcon is going to DD a lot since that his this thing. The CF I play tends to platform camp me to avoid PKF. You have to be very careful in the neutral here because we're at an ideal weight for CF to combo us and if we get grabbed it's going to hurt a lot, esp. at higher % where dthrow -> fair is free for him.
Fortunately though this same thing applies to CF. We grab him -> tons of dmg. I remember Gmaster once describing the MU as "first one to get a grab wins." Will explain more on this in comboing.
PKFire spacing is essential and should be carefully abused, because a good CF will capitalize on any opening you give him. Just basically don't be throwing out **** in neutral because you're going to get bopped if you do. IMO neutral vs cf is very dd/pkf heavy. You can do some baiting with wb magnet as well. Mostly when I'm playing CF i'm looking for a fair into a grab.

Comboing: We can dthrow tech chase him to oblivion if he di's away and it's easy due to his **** techroll. If he doesn't di away it's a free djc uair -> regrab. I also believe We have uthrow combos on him as well but I've heard contradiction that he can jump out past 20% or so so i'm not sure. Last time I saw NZA playing the matchup he was doing uthrow combos so IDK. Someone clarify on that plz.
DJC uair and nair are very good since CF is a fastfaller. Mag > uair is a free grab. Mag > dair will usually cause a missed tech which is another free jab reset/djc dair, etc.
Look for dtilt -> djc bair at higher %. We wreck him when we get a hit in.

Edgeguarding: Also super free. I mean it's CF. Fthrow off the edge wrecks Falcon. LJC -> wd back sends us at a perfect angle to nair/dair/bair when he's recovering low. Flash works well since his recovery is very predictable, though at higher % since falcon is kinda heavy and flash tends to send people back across the stage and up. Also if you can go deep and get a rising fair it's lights out for him too.
Good rule of thumb is: CF recovering high? -> nair Low? -> dair. Douple dipping is very good vs his recovery, and if the player is good he will always meteor cancel our dair.
Be sure to grab ledge often and ljc -> instant dair to punish if he tries to over shoot or you run out of invincibility.

ALSO: Great way to refresh invinc: LJC -> mag -> wd back.

Recovering: I try to either sweetspot or recover high onto plats to cancel my pkt2 vs CF since he has the mobility to punish most anything. Be wary of recovering close to the stage because if the CF knows the MU he'll run out and stomp/fair/bair you out of pkt whenever he can. Knowing your sweetspot angles is very important in the MU. Recovering low will usually get you stomped.

Stage choice: I like FD since it evens the playing field pretty well and CF has no plats to camp on or retreat to from a grab, though that applies to us as well. SV is a decent neutral as well. I tend to avoid PS2 since I don't like the plat layout for the MU and the blastzones seem kinda short off the side; CF always kills off the side.
Skyworld is amazing for the MU since it gives us tons of options to recover, allows us to combo freely, and if we get a grab on either of the side plats it's death for CF if we grab the ledge. also we can uthrow -> techchase to the top plat i think anyways.
I try to avoid Skyloft and WW.
I think something can be said for smaller stages in this MU.

Matchup Spread: Very even, fun MU. Edge to Falcon 45:55 CF.

 

[MWEX]

Ness has PK Fire and Dair, but ness can get combo'd to hell, it's more so 60:40

 

[reslived]

dair loses to falcon's up+B if we dont time it right.

 

[Bryonato]

yeah most moves do to grab armor if timed/spaced incorrectly

 

[Nkguy01]

Ness mostly destroys falcon...It's funny seeing how the tables have turned since melee haha. Ness can easily juggle Falcon with an upthrow. Can easily react to Falcon's slow techs and rebgrab down throw to tech chase. With the exception of Falcon's raptor boost in the air, his recovery is asking to be gimped by either a nair, or a dair.

The ness has to learn when to go in for the nair, and to not be baited by Falcon's dash dances. For the most part, on stages like Smashville, Ness can easily contain the momentum.

Things to watch out for:

I believe that at 100 or so, an up throw or down throw will lead to a knee. Ness players have to be careful about that. Falcon in general can get a lot out of grabs, but a nair, or a dair will usually trade and end Falcon's combo. A good Falcon will bait out your nair, and go for a regrab and basically chip at you with nairs and fairs until Falcon is able to throw and knee.

The main thing that Ness has to do is maintain momentum. Ness cannot simply allow Falcon any breathing room.

 

[choknater]

yeah i agree

so many things with ness lead into grab, and our fair beats most of his aerials. i have not played a match against a good falcon yet though

and by good i mean ss/s2j/hax/lord level, and they don't really play PM as far as i know

 

[SpaceJello]

As one of he top level players in south Florida, and ness main, I have a lot of experience with the falcon match up. As stated before it's a lot of " who gets the grab first" situations. U-throw->bair is b&b in this matchup. No amount of di can stop it from happening unless they tech a platform.falcon has easy high damage grab comboes too. The probably most punishing and hard to get out of is the d-throw-> u-air->knee. It will always send you off stage. Other than grab game, aerials I would say go to cf. all of ness' aerials lose to cf nair. I wouldn't say this match up is that bad for ness ( like rob lol) but it definitely is quite difficult. I'd say 45-65

 

[Bryonato]

45-65 though >.>

 

[fAtomsk]

45-65 though >.>

dude, it's a simple concept as Ness you're just gonna lose 45 out of the 110 games you play. NBD

 

[SoniCraft]

Haha that math.

 

[SpaceJello]

hahaha i meant 40-60 my b

 

[Bryonato]

Definitely extending the discussion for CF another week. Few posts each with different opinions.

hahaha i meant 40-60 my b

Why specifically do you find it's 60:40? Just because our aerials lose to nair?

 

[SpaceJello]

well not just that, but that is a huge reason for it. another big problem i've always had with ness against cfalc is cf's mobility. cf is way faster than ness. he can easily poke at ness and run away without ness being able to do anything about it. a cf that plays very patient and waits for the ness to do something first is almost always going to win. these two things are why i say its 60-40 in cfs favor.


but on another note, id like to know what you guys think of the link/rob matchup. both of these matchups ( rob more than link) are easily the most difficult for me. these matchups i feel are so bad, that its pointless to even try to play them. rob i feel beats ness in every way. the neutral game youre getting pressured nonstop by lasers and the top. your aerials lose to robs all the time( especially falling nair, its impossible to punish in the air or on ground due to the extended fire). also rob is not easily comboed. he can jump right after a dthrow and not get hit, pk fire can be turned against you with his side-b. the only decent thing i feel i can do is fair chains off stage but that doesnt really matter because even if you spike rob 2 or even sometimes 3 ( yes 3!) times he can still make it back to the edge. i wish i had clips to show you but i dont have a capture card at the moment. it is extremely frustrating.

link i dont feel is as bad but still not a good matchup for ness. links projectiles are good at keeping ness very far away. and when you get close enough, link can use his extendo grab and get easy comboes from a d-throw ( such as d-throw -> u-tilt-->up air-> or dthrow-> upsmash) or he can up-b out of shield. i would say this matchup isnt as bad because ness has very good grab combos on link but thats about it. dthrow for ness is always a guranteed high % combo. if he doesnt di forward, then the best option is bair or utilt -> bair. if he does di away then fair -> dtilt-> grab works most of the time or even down-b ->nair to get them off stage. the biggest problem that puts this in links favor is the boomerang. through my multiple times of getting 2nd and 3rd at tournies due to being camped out by a link with the boomerang, ive found only 2 solutions to it. 1 is if youre far enough away like on fd or smashville to just bat it back at them. the only other option is to powershield it. jumping over it or letting it hit your shield will always lead to a punish. jumping over it will only lead to it hitting you ( and turning you around to make it worst) when it comes back. if it hits your shield, and link is in the air, link will be able to get to you before you are able to act out of shield ( ex: wavedash oos, jump oos
these matchups i feel are much worst than the previous ones discussed (marth, shiek) imo

 

[Bryonato]

I hate to be *that guy* but if you could save matchup requests for when I ask for them at the end of the week that would be great. I just want to keep things structured, yknow?

 

[SpaceJello]

oh okay, well back to cf then. as i ve stated before, i feel falcon( at least one that knows the matchup) has the upper hand in this match up. with that being said, ness still has a variety of options for combos, edgegaurding, etc. someone said already that this match up should be played very offensively. i agree with this 100%. it is hard to play defensively against someone who is faster than you. but this doenst mean that its undoable. with proper spacing you can punish the nairs with a simple wavedash back and f-smash(or upsmash oos if youre feeling fancy
). playing defensively is necessary when cf decides to keep running from you ( since its hard to catch up to them)

 

[The_NZA]

1. Neutral game - How we fair vs. the opposing character in the neutral state of the game. What are our best options during this state? What should we watch out for?
   
   Most of our aerials outrange falcons, so there's a good chance if you get to dictate when and where you both meet, you will win. What this also means is that Ness has to make the mistake in order for him to get hit, which puts a lot of the pressure of the matchup on being attentive and the dashdance/committal game rather than any specific character knowledge.
   
   Full hop aerials (even when the falcon doesn't approach but could aproach at any moment) are a good idea, and then deciding what you want to do with the second jump based on where the falcon is. For example, I'll do a full hop fair sort of threatening the falcons space a little (its a bit more defensive than that) and then I evaluate--should
   
   a. DJC pkfire while jumping backwards
   b. DJC fair (and commit)
   c. Magnet (and see what falcon does in response).
   
   I also like shuffled fairs but I don't really like DJC fair that much in this matchup since its pretty committal and the falcon will be dash dancing the whole time anyhow.
   
   Defensively, when you do approach, remember to do Nairs Oos, or as you leave the ground (you'd be surprised how often this "insurance policy" will net you a free hit when a falcon commits improperly).
   
   Regardless, approaching is hard in this matchup, since both characters punish one another bad and when you commit, falcon has a strong ability to simply run away and hit you when you have missed. Be careful about being still without an aerial out. Its usually a bad idea to do something like approach with magnet, since its small hitbox matched with falcons speed almost always means its a bad gamble.
   
   The one other thing I will say about the neutral game is that this is one of the few matchups where grounded pkfire (and dash attack) is risky since falcon can just jump over it and stomp/knee you. If you are Pkfiring, you should probably be jumping backwards. Aerials are almost always preferable.
   
   
2. Comboing -
   
   Uthrow will lead to several followups before mid percentages, at which point dthrow has some good DJC followups. Personally, I like uthrow to a high up DJC uair (so its like a fullhop but you get to the ground faster). There are really 3 uair options, and this is a matchup where on certain percentages all of them are good.
   
   A. DJC uair (this is usually higher up than when you do it against the spacies)
   B. Full hop aerial to DJ followups (its hard to nail what percents this is good for because full hop uairs will often not send falcon high enough for you to respond with another aerial before he breaks out of hit stun.
   C. DJ rising uair. So this is where you input X->X-> uair. Hopefully this means you do the uair during the rising DJ animation, which puts you out of Doublejump stun quick enough to followup with a second uair or aerial of your choice. I haven't workshopped the percentages in this matchup to know at what percents itll work but i'll go ahead and guess 35%+
   
   Also, it might be situational, but this is one matchup where yoyo can combo into crap. You can try it out from a downthrow. Only other thing is, I don't know how reliable or good magnet is with comboing in this matchup but I normally don't opt for it. Anyone want to comment on that?
   
   Also, Falcon has a god awful tech roll. If you dthrow falcon, you can easily dash in a direction and wavedash to where you think he'll be to regrab him. In fact, I recommend everyone try that for this matchup since its so easy. Just dash->wavedash reactively in the direction you see him roll).
   
   
3. Edge guarding -
   
   Falcon really will only go two ways. High, or low. Low is free as ****, since all you have to do is dair his head. You should practice all the ways to get to his favorite recovery paths to dair him. Run off dairs are especially deadly. But don't make the mistake of grabbing the edge too early since if you do that, he'll just recover high and you'll miss the punish opportunity.
   
   My favorite is when I know i've sent the falcon at a high angle, and he's going to have to falcon kick. Against this, I immediately start a pkflash and place it where I think he'll try to falcon kick to. You can try and pk flash him, and still have time to jump off stage to dair him for when he recovers low.
   
   
4. Recovering -
   
   It really depends. Don't recover too close to the stage or you'll eat a falcon punish (if he's smart enough to get you quick enough after you've started PKT1). Otherwise, you can mix it up between recovering high and low. If you recover high, you'll most likely eat a uair whereas if you recover low, I think you'll eat a knee. Sweetspotting is good since falcon isn't going to likely be hanging on to the ledge, and pkt2ing into the ground is really smart since falcon doesn't have disjoints to punish where you will end up. It can't be overstated enough, but don't make yourself a target. Don't magnet like an idiot near the stage while you are recovering, making yourself into a shiny blue target for him to jump to and **** up.
   
   
5. Stage Choice -
   People say Falcon loves DL64 but I think its better for Ness. In general, He kills horizontally, and so do you but his recovery is garbage and yours is good. Take him to DL64, Dracula's Castle, YI Brawl. Avoid stages with short horizontals. Personally, I wouldn't want to play falcon on PS2, GHZ, Yoshi's Island Melee, or Warioware. If I had to only ban 3, it would probably be GHZ, YI Melee, PS2. I imagine warioware is sort of hard for falcon to play on because of all the platforms (not totally sure on this). As far as neutrals go, I'd ban PS2, YI Melee. Most falcons i bet will ban FoD and DL64 (if they know what they are doing). Between Battlefield, FD, and SV, i'd imagine BF is best for us but that's mostly because I can't tell who has an advantage on flat stages.
   
   
6. Matchup Spread -
   I'm guessing its 45:55 Ness, or 50:50. It's really hard to know since Ness has such an immaculate anti Cfalcon gimping game. But that requires people to be on point with dairs.
   
   
7. Extra stuff -
   www.twitch.tv/gameunderground/b/505042590?t=357m46s
   
   Here you can see two vids of me playing against AOI's falcon twice in a row (sorry for the audio). Notice how often I beat him in the neutral game and how invaluable dair is at ending falcon's existence.
   
   Other extra stuff: For the love of GOD, if falcon grabs you and is going to dthrow you, DI away and down. This will prevent a knee most of the time. Otherwise, welcome to a world of stocks that last until 80%.
   
   

 

[SoniCraft]

I remember watching Mofo fight a Falcon once in Melee, and he seemed to use really high rising fairs a lot. I'm guessing this allows us to get some hits in and escape right after. Seem like a good idea?