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MU Thread v2 | PM 3.5 Ness Matchup Discussion |

PJHMastermind

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Though Link has been a thorn in all Ness mains sides (I believe is a correct statement) I vote Diddy because of a bunch of them popping up lately on Netplay. O_o

Edit: I also need AGT info, as I just can't seem to get it down as well as I want. :D

Also if you could add me to the Skype group, my username is: pjhmastermind
 
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Soft Serve

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As much as i would LOVE to talk about diddy, I'm out of town for the week so I won't be able to hit the lab to record stuff for the little querks in the MU and show you guys some of the silly stuff you can do with Bananas and Peanuts as Ness.

If we do talk Diddy I'd chime in at the end.
 

Bryonato

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results are in! This week we'll be discussing Diddy Kong. I'll do my writeup later. Let's hear your thoughts
 
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Cazcom

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So I've played Bladewise's diddy kong, as well as a couple others, and here's my general thoughts on the matchup:

1) Diddy is a great combo weight, and if he DIs the d-throw away, we have free a re-grab until high percents. If he DIs back, you can either a) DJC uair --> regrab --> d-throw, or b) SH-bair --> DJC bair --> tech-chase. So it's pretty easy to get diddy kong from 0 up to the 50-75% range. At low percentages, every grab should lead to 40-50%.

2) The secret to beating diddy kong is to stop his recovery. We have 3 really good tools for that in my opinion. A diddy kong that is recovering high will typically throw out a side-b. We have so many tools to beat this. Fair/Bair/Magnet are my favorite, specifically a wavebounced (not jump cancelled) to leave Ness in a stage-facing position to complete the edge guard (bair if he tries again, or DJ dair if he tries the up-b).

The important thing to note is that Ness' dair will beat diddy's up-b (though you'll take damage from the wayward rockets). The wayward rockets actually help in my opinion, because it means you don't have to DJ dair diddy if he's recovering from directly below the stage -- you can dropzone dair him, let the rockets pop you up, and keep fast-fall dairing him as long as you need to if he can still recover with the up-b again. The other important thing to remember is that the tail of pkt can stop diddy's up-b too, and diddy's like to go low as they charge a lot (especially if they get knocked very far away from the stage), so if you can't get to them with the magnet, send out an early pkt, whip it around to catch them with the tail (and then swing the head back around to knock them back further if you can). This will limit diddy's recovery options drastically.

3) Diddy's banana game gives him a huge ability to microspace, so approaching/retreating fair/aerieal pk-fire mixups are a must in your approach. But thankfully Diddy doesn't outspace the hell out of us like Marth/Roy/DDD, so you know he's looking to get in close. And thankfully, we can nair out of a lot of his combos, and he can't really get out of ours too easily.

4) Diddy's killing moves are u-throw, fair, and his d-smash (as far as I could tell from my fights). If you have a stage with a high ceiling, don't be afraid of the grabs too much. And just be ready to DI towards center stage if you're near killing percent. I'd say more about diddy defense, but I haven't figured too much out yet. Since Diddy's a fast faller with a good u-throw, high ceilings are your friend. Diddy's fair has decent horizontal killing potential, but Ness' is better, imo. I personally like FD and Green Hill (despite Diddy's banana gimmicks on the flat stages). I think stages with large blast zones (dreamland and the like) are nice too, because unlike most characters, I think we can stop Diddy's recovery pretty successfully.

Wrap-up: I think we lose the neutral-slightly due to banana games, but we punish WAY harder than Diddy does, have better killing power, and can gimp diddy without too much difficulty. Personally, I think this one is 60-40 in Ness' favor, but I think Ness-Falco is like 70-30 in Ness' favor, so what the hell do I know :p
 

Soft Serve

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^ this is all really good imo.

One thing I want to add about edge guarding Diddy is that if the diddy is recovering from directly below the stage and you've already conditioned him to not go immediately (through dairs) Diddy only has one timing where he can sweetspot the ledge, so if he over charges it you can just start to charge an f-smash. Its a lot safer if you're at higher percents and don't want to risk getting stage spiked by up-b if you messed up.

Most of Diddy's appproaches will be either Banana related, DA, or shffl'd nairs. Bananas are a monstrous topic which I'll go over later. DA's are unsafe, just shield and DJC bair OoS, or if you get hit SDI up/behind diddy quickly and you'll fall out most of the time. Nairs are his main combo tool and approach, with both the strong and weak hits being godlike at starting combos.

Diddy's Only actual kill moves are Fair and f-smash. Dsmash is readbased,Uthrow and Strong Nair kill at high 160's at the earliest on most stages. Dair off stage is risky vs Ness and doesn't really combo out of anything (weak nairs, side-b, and DA are the only thing that will link to it)

Its probably 60-40 ness imo, and is one of the handful of MU's that Diddy potentially loses (fox, shiek, Marth, Ivy, MK, M2, and Lucas being the other main ones)


When I drop my big post later this week (with video attachment, i promise) I'll go into more detail and try to articulate the MU. Its weird because both Ness and Diddy can play as basic or as complex at they want and still be effective, expecially with how intricate both Ness's DJC flexibility and Diddy's AGT abilities are.

First rule of the MU: shielding is baddd (shameless plug): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxu_RSUpjWU
2nd rule of the MU: If you get grabbed, Hope they didn't read your DI correctly, as Diddy's dthrow and f/upthrow are DI traps.
3rrd rule: tech the trips or you'll get f-smashes. Bananas are tools for you too.
When I do make my post I'll have both a video reference towards the banana techs that Ness can do, where the counterplay lies in bananas and Diddy's combo game (Item control and good SDI), and videos of the MU. I'll probably pull a lot from awestin vs Disqo, AbstractLogic, and Luck if i can find any videos of that.
 
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Bryonato

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item control is so essential in this MU and a really good skill to have in general. Ness has some really tricky item stuff with combining djc, footstools and agt
 

Boiko

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you must be playing a noob if you think diddy is easy
I play Godot's Diddy on the regular. Also played with NL.
Ness has guaranteed at least 50% off of a grab if you can read the DI. Diddy is the easiest weight for Ness to combo. Off stage, just fair into rising nair like you would on a spacie. Going for a dair seems pointless to me since it's so easily canceled and you take damage from the barrels 90% of the time. It's pretty tough for Diddy to sweet spot the ledge, so just keep him off with dtilt or fair/nair until you feel like you have a good opportunity for a kill.

Try not to get grabbed. Bad DI means Diddy can down throw chain grab or down throw>dash attack off stage>fair/dair, and if you don't DI that properly, Up+B edge guard, so that's pretty rough. Also, DIddy's fair beats Ness' PKT2 so either sweet spot, or go high on recoveries.

I'd give it 55-45 Ness, just because bananas can be brutal and if you mess up your DI, it's going to be rough.
 

The_NZA

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A lot of good stuff here. I just wanted to chime in and say that.

Also, stage picks matter a lot. I fear diddy on a small stage more than I fear bowser. Warioware v. diddy almost feels unwinnable for me :/. I'm also surprised generally how people who have played this matchup a lot feel like its in ness's favor. I personally struggle in this matchup a bit, but i've also never understood how to edgeguard diddy and just threw pk flashes out.
 

Boiko

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A lot of good stuff here. I just wanted to chime in and say that.

Also, stage picks matter a lot. I fear diddy on a small stage more than I fear bowser. Warioware v. diddy almost feels unwinnable for me :/. I'm also surprised generally how people who have played this matchup a lot feel like its in ness's favor. I personally struggle in this matchup a bit, but i've also never understood how to edgeguard diddy and just threw pk flashes out.
I agree to an extent about small stages, particularly those with small side blast zones as all of Diddy's KO moves (sans up throw), kill off the side. I don't like FD, because of bananas. I personally, almost always go Battlefield or Melee Yoshi's. May just be preference though.
 

SinisterB

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item control is an asset but i think being conscious of the space bananas control is the most important
& how to effectively change your movement based on that

spawning PKF off them and knocking them back with the Bat is a thing

Mag Dasing like CaptinMoses said is useful but approaching in general with Magnet can be a gamble, so i find it more useful defensively (semantics?). if the Magnet connects you can follow up with an aerial, swoop back for the banana if it doesn't, or just land somewhere safe instead. i think Diddy has a pretty good recovery, so if you aren't planning on intercepting the arc he makes on the way back i'd suggest punishing where he lands or at least take advantage. it's similar to ours where he can act really fast if he lands on the ground, and covers a lot more distance than you might think. Our combo game on P.diddy is nuts, because of his weight. I'd say get creative, Dthrow -> Magnet -> PKF is cool at low-mid percents. into whatever you can manage off that. if he DIs behind or whatever just Back Air or start Up Air strings.

got the chance to play firefly for a little while the other day so we did a bunch of Ness v Diddy, ^ few things i gathered from that
 

Soft Serve

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Diddy's Up-b is deceptivly vunerable, It has bad hit-boxes and has a lot of landing lag, Where its really strong is how fast it goes, its flexibility, distance and how easy it is to grab ledge backwards. The Up-b has a long animation before you go into free-fall.



Diddy's arms and head are completely exposed which makes nairing and dairing him a breeze if you can intercept his arc. It also has 18 frames of landing lag so it is very punishable on landing, it just slides very far which gives the illusion of having a short landing lag. (previous builds [2.5] had around 8 frames of landing lag, in comparison)

I've been a lot busier than i thought I was so I'll just chime in in chunks. I also Lost my notebook which had all my MU notes (from diddy's perspective) which is really frustrating and put the video i was going to throw togeather back a lot.

Besides banana awareness and item control, a really important thing to note is that Diddy has pretty sub-par hitboxes. He maeks up for it through speed and bananas, but if you look at his aerials you'll see nothing extends past his hands/feet. His only real disjoints are rapid jab and <100% ledge get-up attack. F-tilt has a decent disjoint.


As you can see Nair has zero disjoints, so Ness's decent hitboxes should beat it out very well. If you see a Nair coming, retreating Fair will wreck it, as will well spaced nairs and Up-smashes. It is used in neutral more than his other aerials, and it is one of his two main combo starters. Nair has 9 frames of landing lag compared to Dairs 12, so Nair is the preferred launcher for combo starters out of neutral. Watch out for Nair planes as an approach, both the strong hit (the first half of the animation), and the weak one (2nd half) are great combo starters.

The rest of his aerials, Note how hitboxes are ehh:



Dair is his other launcher and is normally used in either tech chases, similar to how a Falcon will shuffle a Dair to cover certain options, like Tech in place or neutral get-up. Its also used as a combo ender and extender, Normally after a Nair, up-throw, Tilt, or side-b slap in order to force a grounded state on floaties. Diddy wants to keep Floaters like Ness close to the ground so he can play the tech chace/banana game and press his advantage the most he can, so look out for it.
It is the move with the best body-coverage he has so if you challenge it you'll normally trade, which in most situations is beneficial to Diddy. It is a meteor so be ready.

Heres the Diddy hit-box thread, its really good. http://smashboards.com/threads/storytime-with-cranky-a-diddy-primer-for-3-0.331761/ Take a look so you know what you're up against and when his active frames are, what end lags you can punish, etc.

The Other main point I want to make, And is in my opinion the most important thing after item control when fighting Diddy, is to keep the pressure on. You don't neccesarrily have to always be doing magnet shield pressure or anything like that, but try to limit situations where he can pull out a banana as much as possible. If diddy does go for a pull, be sure you can punish it well, maybe with a grounded-pk fire, or if he jumped and did it, rising fairs. Alternatively just take it from him if he tosses it out towards you. Why this is important is that When Diddy resets the game to neutral, it isn't a "true neutral." If he get away and resets the situation, he gain advantage because Diddy's strengths lie in the neutral game. Its similar to playing a good lock-down falco, except that Diddy's neutral control is Dash-dancing with an Item instead of spamming lasers. Keep the pressure on Diddy, because by getting away he gains his advantages back.


since I lost my notebook, everything is a bit scatted haha. Idk, what is particular are people having problems with for Diddy? Diddy is a really flexible character so its not like you can employ one strategy and shut him down. Its all micro-situations and stage control and pressure, with both characters having a multitude of options in all the categories.
 

Soft Serve

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Double post, sue me lol. I'll probably triple post later if people don't have questions or something.

Little tiny teaser/example of the jank Ness can do with DJC item drop/throws. There is so much flexibility in it that my full video won't show like half of it. Its not even that button intensive, just really silly. It isn't too useful raw, but if you footstool into it, its godlike. I'll show it in the video, you can footstool a shield > DJC z drop and you land right as the banana hits with no lag or anything, its the free-est of free conversions.


Ummm other important thing to think about... just play the MU and learn through experience. People telling you what to do n boards can only help so much, especially when everyone just asks for advice on a MU then leaves without mentioning specifics/ or contributing. Where are the people who wanted the Diddy MU discussed struggling? I'll 100% be able to answer them lol. If theres specific tech problems with Items, I can explain/record my controller as I do them or whatever.
 
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Soft Serve

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Oh **** i was going to finish my last video about playing with bananas as Ness
but i got caught on youtube

And I'm pretty bad, I just theorycraft a lot and love framedata. I'm **** at applying everything, although i'm getting better :p
 

SoniCraft

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Thanks P-0. To all the experienced Ness mains, could you maybe give an ideal option for each point listed on that diagram?
 

Praxis

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Thanks P-0. To all the experienced Ness mains, could you maybe give an ideal option for each point listed on that diagram?
Blue: PK Thunder
Green: PK Thunder
Yellow: PK Thunder
Red: PK Thunder
Dark Red: PK Thunder

Kappa
 

Bryonato

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...on a serious note.
Green: ledgedrop rising nair/dair, magnet
Yellow: ^^^^
Orange: flash, rising nair/dair/fair, pkt
Red: Fsmash, flash, djc nair/bair
Crimson: ^^^^^^
 

SoniCraft

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It has pretty decent hitlag if the percent's high enough. I personally don't like using Pkt to edgegaurd currently, but it's never really been completely ineffective.
 

Soft Serve

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I gave up on the AGT/item tech video, not enough time before I leave for Evo in a few hours.

Things you should mess around with bananas for:
General AGTs
instant catch-AGTS (regular agts, just timed when an item would hit you so you catch and throw it back)
Wavedashing/landing to pick them off the ground
Instant AGTS to throw them straight from the ground
If you have a banana when you get knocked off stage, or you z-caught one, AGTup, toss up > full DJ puts you right where the banana is falling so you can AGT-up again. Stupid recovery boost, similar to what Peach can do with her turnips.
Continued AGTs under the stage to stall. Also, slightly angled continued AGTs to climb walls.
DJC item throws and z-drops. You can shift your momentum with crazy flexibility to position yourself for good item tosses, its crazy.
Footstool>item throws.
Technically, I'm pretty sure if your godlike fast, an instant z-drop out of a ground magnet into like anything else will make it 100% shield pressure, or like a one frame window where they can roll (if you're TAS perfect)
z-drop>DJC Nair>Dtilt spam on someones shield as the banana falls and trips them, if they don't roll away between the nair and dtilts, and they don't get pushed too far, its guaranteed to trip.
If you're edge guarding Diddy and he is recovering vertically, just a z-dropped or throw down banana will hit him out of it no matter what he does. Its good if you didn't have time to set up accordingly, and really salt inducing for the Diddy.

Yeah I can't think of anything else Ness can do with items, other than doing DJC item throws out of magnet and such. Just play smart in the MU and punish well, don't let up pressure because Diddy out camps you, learn item control (at least the basics of it) and figure out what he does thats punishable and stuff.
 

Soft Serve

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I played a pretty scrubby zard at evo in one of the side brackets, but the MU was really hard as Ness imo. We struck to BF and I was just having a hard time getting the kills. It might have been how I was playing though. I had to switch back to fox to win the set.

I would nominate zard or lucario because I litterally don't know what to do in those MU's as Ness.
 
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Akhenderson

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I would like to talk about the Sheik match up. I feel like midwest has tons of Sheik players and it's so hard... ;_;
Either her or Pit.
 

SoniCraft

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Just a suggestion, instead of having a poll choice for every nomination, you could narrow it down to like 2 options from the most requested so that we'd get less spread out results. If there are MUs that more people are having trouble with than Ganon, I'd be fine with you not including him in the poll. But it's your thread, so you have the final say.
 

Red(SP)

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I want to talk about Pit, to be honest.
EDIT: This is what happens when you're inactive on Smash Boards. Soft Serve is a god holy ****.
 
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