MU Discussion: Samus

[Delta-cod]

Samus got some discussion on a Discord chat earlier, and cataloging what was said would be helpful for everyone.

Discussion Topic: Samus' Projectile Wall (Neutral Game).

Frame Data

http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Samus

Charge Shot -- Can Shoot From: 15 FAF: 54
Homing Missile -- Hitbox Active: 18 FAF: 57
Super Missile -- Hitbox Active: 18 FAF: 59
Zair -- Hitbox Active 8-17 Landing Lag: 8
Jumpsquat -- 4

Analysis

After each projectile becomes active, we have roughly 40 frames to deal with the situation before Samus can take another action. This is plenty of time to dodge and punish, or even just to dodge and not get punished. Thus, projectile walls don't force an approach. Zair is pretty tough, but it's much less of a problem when we aren't forced airborne. We should have time to dodge a projectile and get grounded again before she can follow up with Zair. Or we can just shield and she can't follow up in time. Earliest possible Zair is frame 12, given the jumpsquat, which isn't great for Samus.

Charged shot can be scary, but again she has no setups into it through projectiles. We just need to be more careful. She DOES have shieldbreaker combos with bombs > Full Charge Shot. But that doesn't really affect neutral. Also, homing missile to charge shot has the shot being released 72 frames after the initial missile input. The charge shot becomes active 54 frames after the missile is active, which isn't especially fast, plenty of time to avoid things. Assuming a perfectly timed landing Zair, you get 23 frames before Charge Shot becomes active, which should again by plenty of time to not get creamed.

Basically, we should be controlling neutral. Which is great, Yoshi doesn't get to do that too often and that should mean we have a good match up here.

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Anyhow, give more thoughts on the match up here. There's plenty left that hasn't been discussed (edge guarding, advantage, disadvantage, etc.), so if you've got some insight, add it! Also, if the above just seems totally off, tell us why! Neutral is pretty important, so we should take care to have an accurate picture of how it works and how to deal with it.

 

[White_Pointer]

As someone who mains Samus and secondaries Yoshi, I actually believe Samus has the advantage in this MU, even before 1.1.5. Not sure how many other Samus mains would agree with me though. But I see it as very similar to the Luigi MU where Samus can zone him out and there's not a lot he can really do about it.

You're putting a lot of focus on Samus' projectile game when really that's not what you should be focusing on. If a Samus is playing a "projectile wall" as you put it, they are doing it wrong IMO because missiles are not very good in general. They would primarily utilise zairs for spacing and only toss in missiles every now and then as a mixup. Bomb -> CS shield breaks can absolutely happen in neutral by the way, especially since the shield stun patch. What you need to be mostly concerned with are her non-projectile moves, especially her multi-hit aerials, with the exception of CS (zair is not a projectile).

The matchup is doable for Yoshi though. Use aerial egg tosses to cover your approach and use nair and jab1 (his fastest moves) as much as you can. It's a MU where you really need to abuse Yoshi's air speed as much as you can and try to play a rushdown heavy game. Playing patient won't get you anywhere in the MU IMO, you need to be in her face the entire time and not let her breathe. But I do think it's maybe 55:45 to Samus, I just think Samus has all of the tools to keep Yoshi out when played properly, and Yoshi tends to work best if he's not forced to approach.

 

[Delta-cod]

It's a MU where you really need to abuse Yoshi's air speed as much as you can and try to play a rushdown heavy game. Playing patient won't get you anywhere in the MU IMO, you need to be in her face the entire time and not let her breathe. But I do think it's maybe 55:45 to Samus, I just think Samus has all of the tools to keep Yoshi out when played properly, and Yoshi tends to work best if he's not forced to approach.

So, what makes it so that Yoshi needs to approach? I agree that we shouldn't let Samus breathe once we've gotten into advantage, but why do we need to hurry during neutral?

 

[White_Pointer]

So, what makes it so that Yoshi needs to approach? I agree that we shouldn't let Samus breathe once we've gotten into advantage, but why do we need to hurry during neutral?

If you don't approach, you're playing her game. Eggs are a little inefficient because zair cancels them out. If you don't approach she'll be happy to zone you out all day. So it's in your best interest to get in there as fast as possible.

 

[Delta-cod]

If you don't approach, you're playing her game. Eggs are a little inefficient because zair cancels them out. If you don't approach she'll be happy to zone you out all day. So it's in your best interest to get in there as fast as possible.

I guess what I'm really interested in is: What does Samus gain from us taking it slow during our approach? If she is successfully zoning us in this case, what exactly are we getting hit with and is it worse than the punishment we could receive for a sloppy approach?

You recommended using aerial eggs to cover approaches. Does this mean that aerial eggs are a tool that don't really get punished easily? If so, why shouldn't Yoshi just whittle Samus down into an opening with those?

If Zair/Fair are the main aerial zoning tools, wouldn't approaching grounded be better? Fair hits kinda high, and hitting a grounded opponent with Zair can be kind of tricky due to height differences, meaning there are windows where Yoshi can approach without fear.

 

[White_Pointer]

I guess what I'm really interested in is: What does Samus gain from us taking it slow during our approach? If she is successfully zoning us in this case, what exactly are we getting hit with and is it worse than the punishment we could receive for a sloppy approach?

You're mostly being hit by zairs and her aerials, with occasional bombs, missiles and tilts. The zairs alone don't do much damage but what they provide is the spacing she needs to do stuff like charge her charge shot or react to how you're going to attempt another approach.

You recommended using aerial eggs to cover approaches. Does this mean that aerial eggs are a tool that don't really get punished easily? If so, why shouldn't Yoshi just whittle Samus down into an opening with those?

What I mean is that you should be approaching Samus through the air by using aerial egg tosses to cover your approach. That doesn't necessarily mean aerial eggs on their own are hard to punish or a pressure option.

If Zair/Fair are the main aerial zoning tools, wouldn't approaching grounded be better? Fair hits kinda high, and hitting a grounded opponent with Zair can be kind of tricky due to height differences, meaning there are windows where Yoshi can approach without fear.

There are certainly windows you can approach but a good Samus will know what those are and try to cover them. Yoshi's height isn't a problem for zair (he's the same height as Peach and the Pits, although ducks slightly lower when running), short hop zairs will hit him every time (unless he's crouching, possibly). Fair is for spacing if Yoshi approaches from the air, which has been buffed in 1.1.5 (as has her nair, which is now a legit kill move).

As I said the windows are there. I'm not saying the matchup is unwinnable by any means, just that I believe Samus has a slight advantage. If a Yoshi manages to get in her face and stay in, Samus is going to have a difficult time (just watch out for up b out of shield). Getting into her face is the tricky part.

 

[Delta-cod]

What I mean is that you should be approaching Samus through the air by using aerial egg tosses to cover your approach. That doesn't necessarily mean aerial eggs on their own are hard to punish or a pressure option.

Are Samus's tilts/bombs so good a zoning tool that grounded approaches are worse? I know Ftilt's a good poke, but is that really harder to deal with than going through Zair/Fair?

As I said the windows are there. I'm not saying the matchup is unwinnable by any means, just that I believe Samus has a slight advantage. If a Yoshi manages to get in her face and stay in, Samus is going to have a difficult time (just watch out for up b out of shield). Getting into her face is the tricky part.

So let's say Samus does control the pacing of neutral. Is her strength there really enough to overcome Yoshi's really strong advantage state in this match up? She's floaty and just seems like combo food for Yoshi. On the flip side, I don't see her as having an especially strong advantage state in this match up, it all just seems like an extension of the neutral state zoning she does. Can Samus actually convert these advantages into kills and wins, or is she just delaying the inevitable?

Here's how I'm currently seeing the MU: Samus is trying to keep Yoshi out and tacking on some percent through zoning, but nothing major. Yoshi gets in, smashes up Samus to most likely make up the deficit (at least), and depending on percentages is putting himself into kill setups. On the flipside, I don't imagine Samus able to do things like this, and instead see her relying on reads/tricks to pull off a Charge Shot, since she doesn't have an especially strong advantage state to transition into from her zoning. With this, I'd have to say Yoshi wins unless Samus's zoning game is just THAT oppressive.

Also, what do you think about Yoshi crawling towards Samus? Think it'd be worth investigating to get around SH Zair?