Guide Mr. Fuji's Journal - Moveset Thread - Hiatus

[Chiroz]

Also does anyone get random Pivot Grabs even when you're 100% sure you didn't input a Pivot? It only happens when I play Mewtwo. I have no idea wtf is going on.

 

[Karsticles]

Also does anyone get random Pivot Grabs even when you're 100% sure you didn't input a Pivot? It only happens when I play Mewtwo. I have no idea wtf is going on.

Nope.

 

[Chiroz]

Nope.

Someone told me it's my controller after using it for a while. Good thing I just bought a new controller yesterday, lol.

Btw this new controller, it's white. And I am painting the buttons Mewtwo Purple :3. Going to have my own Mewtwo controller.

 

[Chiroz]

Do we have a PM for discussing stuff? I really want to get into like serious discussion that doesn't take 2 hours per reply about Mewtwo for anyone interested. The skype group is also a joke to be honest, lol.

 

[---]

Sorry, some Mega Man stuff got in the way. When ahead and restarted the PM for revamping this thread.

Not sure if it's the serious discussion you're looking for though, but hopefully it eventually turns into that.

 

[Eight_SixtyFour]

Maybe we could talk about each individual move, like the Mario boards have been doing. Learn about each move in detail.

For reference, here is the thread.

http://smashboards.com/threads/mari...n-session-21-super-jump-punch-customs.395539/

 

[Chiroz]

Is anyone else having an easier time hitting opponents at the ledge with D-Smash? It still doesn't hit below platforms but maybe it's hitbox was slightly buffed? Or maybe I am just imagining things.

 

[lavagolem123]

Not me personally, no. I honestly avoid it all together as a ledge guard. I find u/d/f-tilt better and safer options if I am waiting for them to get back. How far back can you be to actually hit them? I've never really tested it to be honest.

 

[Chiroz]

Not me personally, no. I honestly avoid it all together as a ledge guard. I find u/d/f-tilt better and safer options if I am waiting for them to get back. How far back can you be to actually hit them? I've never really tested it to be honest.

It's not about how far back, it's about the fact that it kills at the ledge.

The thing is, when someone grabs the edge a second time they have to stay for a few frames and they have 0 frames of invulnerability. This means that if you ledge trump someone (or if your opponent lets go of the ledge by himself) and they are about to re-grab the edge you can charge a D-Smash and get a free kill.

It's a very situational scenario but one that you can create almost everytime if you just instant ledge trump chars as they grab the ledge with Teleport or the instant ledge grab technique. It also works if they are just waiting there at the ledge without doing anything waiting on you to perform a laggy move. You can surprise them with a D-Smash.

 

[Karsticles]

It's not about how far back, it's about the fact that it kills at the ledge.

The thing is, when someone grabs the edge a second time they have to stay for a few frames and they have 0 frames of invulnerability. This means that if you ledge trump someone (or if your opponent lets go of the ledge by himself) and they are about to re-grab the edge you can charge a D-Smash and get a free kill.

It's a very situational scenario but one that you can create almost everytime if you just instant ledge trump chars as they grab the ledge with Teleport or the instant ledge grab technique. It also works if they are just waiting there at the ledge without doing anything waiting on you to perform a laggy move. You can surprise them with a D-Smash.

I usually go for the spike in those situations.

Also, df tilt is good at getting people on the ledge without committing.

 

[lavagolem123]

As far as other uses go, I find D-smash to be a pretty decent bait move since it looks so laggy. In my experience, players tend to try to punish it hard but M2 recovers surprisingly quick. I almost use it exclusively over f-smash simply because it's a lil harder to punish.

 

[Chiroz]

As far as other uses go, I find D-smash to be a pretty decent bait move since it looks so laggy. In my experience, players tend to try to punish it hard but M2 recovers surprisingly quick. I almost use it exclusively over f-smash simply because it's a lil harder to punish.

It seems to have more knockback than the sourspot of F-Smash and it seems to have the exact same horizontal range as F-Smash. Someone correct me if I am wrong.

 

[Karsticles]

Does anyone else hate Mewtwo's double jump? It is so annoying in the neutral. I just want to be able to bait people with two normal jumps like most characters. This jump is crap! I would rather have a better Teleport range.

 

[meleebrawler]

Does anyone else hate Mewtwo's double jump? It is so annoying in the neutral. I just want to be able to bait people with two normal jumps like most characters. This jump is crap! I would rather have a better Teleport range.

Confusion is basically a normal second jump for baiting purposes. Ness, Lucas and even Yoshi have similar jumps (though Yoshi
can mitigate with eggs).

Though if you ask me I wouldn't be jumping much in neutral until the opponent jumps first. Mewtwo's aerials
work much better against aerial opponents than grounded. Use tilts and shadow balls to try to get them up there first.

 

[Chiroz]

Confusion is basically a normal second jump for baiting purposes. Ness, Lucas and even Yoshi have similar jumps (though Yoshi
can mitigate with eggs).

Though if you ask me I wouldn't be jumping much in neutral until the opponent jumps first. Mewtwo's aerials
work much better against aerial opponents than grounded. Use tilts and shadow balls to try to get them up there first.

Confusion lags way too much to use it as a second jump to bait, you might bait an attack but you won't get anything out of it.


I agree abour not jumping at all. I normally don't "bait" jump in neutral. If I am jumping in neutral I am mostly spacing an aerial.

 

[meleebrawler]

Confusion lags way too much to use it as a second jump to bait, you might bait an attack but you won't get anything out of it.


I agree abour not jumping at all. I normally don't "bait" jump in neutral. If I am jumping in neutral I am mostly spacing an aerial.

Yeah you're right Confusion is more of a defensive feint.

Frankly the only characters that benefit from bait jumps a) can fall fast and/or have a good descending aerial like a sex kick or
b) have multiple jumps. Dedede happens to have both.

 

[lavagolem123]

Anybody ever have any success with immediate DJ rising U-air to another aerial? I've been trying to implement more ways of actually making his DJ useful other than recovering. After a d-tilt or even u-tilt(rarely, generally there's a better option) it seems to be a decent mixup option depending on character size and DI. I feel like even when the opponent is in the air or above M2 without hitstun it's almost always better to not chase with the DJ and either just react or use grounded moves.

 

[Browny]

Enjoy some smash theorycraft 101 on how to make marth mains be quiet and prove the disjoint on Mewtwos dtilt is BIGGER THAN MARTHS

1) Marths dtilt hurtbox extension
http://i.imgur.com/uIFQtkV.png

2) Max range to hitbox start = total disjoint
http://i.imgur.com/5jJogJT.jpg

3) Mewtwos hurtbox maximum extension (On the spark)
http://i.imgur.com/9pHb1bm.png

4) Mewtwos hitbox max range + disjoint
http://i.imgur.com/MDdsZqc.jpg

Conclusion: Mewtwos dtilt has a considerably large disjoint and it is larger than marths.

All arguments to my evidence are to be submitted via screenshot or video proof only.

 

[Chiroz]

Enjoy some smash theorycraft 101 on how to make marth mains be quiet and prove the disjoint on Mewtwos dtilt is BIGGER THAN MARTHS

1) Marths dtilt hurtbox extension
http://i.imgur.com/uIFQtkV.png

2) Max range to hitbox start = total disjoint
http://i.imgur.com/5jJogJT.jpg

3) Mewtwos hurtbox maximum extension (On the spark)
http://i.imgur.com/9pHb1bm.png

4) Mewtwos hitbox max range + disjoint
http://i.imgur.com/MDdsZqc.jpg

Conclusion: Mewtwos dtilt has a considerably large disjoint and it is larger than marths.

All arguments to my evidence are to be submitted via screenshot or video proof only.

I thought it was known day 1 D-Tilt and Disable outrange all of Marth's moves (maybe excepting Neutral B).

 

[Browny]

I dont care about the range, the point is the disjoint.

Too many people think that mewtwos tail is his hurtbox when thats just a flat out lie. Mewtwos tail is a better sword than marths.

 

[meleebrawler]

I dont care about the range, the point is the disjoint.

Too many people think that mewtwos tail is his hurtbox when thats just a flat out lie. Mewtwos tail is a better sword than marths.

Well it's half true, the tip certainly is disjointed but the base isn't, and that's where the sweetspots are.

You don't need to exaggerate to show Mewtwo's merits. Mewtwo only pokes to stay safe while Marth thrives on doing that
constantly so it's a bit short-sighted to just say Mewtwo's tail is a better sword just because it has slightly longer reach.

 

[Browny]

Well it's half true, the tip certainly is disjointed but the base isn't, and that's where the sweetspots are.

You don't need to exaggerate to show Mewtwo's merits. Mewtwo only pokes to stay safe while Marth thrives on doing that
constantly so it's a bit short-sighted to just say Mewtwo's tail is a better sword just because it has slightly longer reach.

Ohhhh my god.

I am not. Talking. About. Range.

Disjoint disjoint disjoint.

I did this purely to quiet the people who say that mewtwos tail is a full hurtbox. That disjoint is HUGE. This has nothing to do with the range.

I could do it for all his tail attacks but it takes so long.

 

[Chiroz]

Ohhhh my god.

I am not. Talking. About. Range.

Disjoint disjoint disjoint.

I did this purely to quiet the people who say that mewtwos tail is a full hurtbox. That disjoint is HUGE. This has nothing to do with the range.

I could do it for all his tail attacks but it takes so long.

Ummmm, is his disjoint really more than Marth's? That seems very doubtful.

I'll test it myself later on.

 

[Browny]

Ummmm, is his disjoint really more than Marth's? That seems very doubtful.

I'll test it myself later on.

I didnt spent like 2-3 hours testing dtilts alone by myself last night to just lie to myself on the internet lol.

I am convinced the disjoint is larger and at worst, it is even. Nothing to me suggested that Marths dtilt had more.

 

[Eight_SixtyFour]

Just wondering what the consensus on Up Tilt is. I think it's one of Mewtwo's better moves (despite the misleading hitboxes) and one of his important anti-air tools.

 

[---]

I think it's an important tool for anti-air and that it's a nice bread-n-bread with Up-Smash, but I do think it's somewhat flawed given the general problems with a lot of Mewtwo's attacks.

The next step we'll touch on in the PM is attacks. Have been a bit busy so I haven't had time to summarize/get a final consensus of everyone's thoughts about Mewtwo as a whole/playstyle.

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

The disjoint is not more than Marth's, but it's approximately the same. You had an error in one of the pictures in that you didn't account for the hurtboxes positions (most notably the pic with Marth's Dtilt). Most people don't know this but hurtboxes and hitboxes are actually 3D and operate on a 3D plane. Mewtwo's foot hurtbox was too far back which is why Marth's attack barely hit there instead of hitting. It would have been better to test with Mewtwo facing the other direction.

Onto Mewtwo's tail. Have you payed attention to how it moves during attacks? Most animations for Mewtwo that don't use his tail leave it's hurtbox outside of the range character's attacks will land. Not sure if this was a thing in Melee but I'm guessing it wasn't?

We're kinda disadvantaged on Duck Hunt though.

 

[Chiroz]

The disjoint is not more than Marth's, but it's approximately the same. You had an error in one of the pictures in that you didn't account for the hurtboxes positions (most notably the pic with Marth's Dtilt). Most people don't know this but hurtboxes and hitboxes are actually 3D and operate on a 3D plane. Mewtwo's foot hurtbox was too far back which is why Marth's attack barely hit there instead of hitting. It would have been better to test with Mewtwo facing the other direction.

Onto Mewtwo's tail. Have you payed attention to how it moves during attacks? Most animations for Mewtwo that don't use his tail leave it's hurtbox outside of the range character's attacks will land. Not sure if this was a thing in Melee but I'm guessing it wasn't?

We're kinda disadvantaged on Duck Hunt though.

It was, sort of.

In Melee when in idle position most of Mewtwo's tail was sort of ethereal (it lacked a hurtbox). At least that's how I remember it. As soon as you attacked the hitbox extended to almost the tip, but the tip always lacked the hurtbox at all times.

 

[Browny]

The disjoint is not more than Marth's, but it's approximately the same. You had an error in one of the pictures in that you didn't account for the hurtboxes positions (most notably the pic with Marth's Dtilt). Most people don't know this but hurtboxes and hitboxes are actually 3D and operate on a 3D plane. Mewtwo's foot hurtbox was too far back which is why Marth's attack barely hit there instead of hitting. It would have been better to test with Mewtwo facing the other direction.

Onto Mewtwo's tail. Have you payed attention to how it moves during attacks? Most animations for Mewtwo that don't use his tail leave it's hurtbox outside of the range character's attacks will land. Not sure if this was a thing in Melee but I'm guessing it wasn't?

We're kinda disadvantaged on Duck Hunt though.

Im working off the sparks, not the other character. If I tested this vs G&W who has no z-depth, it would be the exact same. The spark shows the maximum range of any attack.

When I zoomed into both images and counted the pixels it was literally 98 pixels for both attacks from the same angle/distance, however in one instance, I managed to clip marth in a equally-timed dtilt battle. I never once managed to hit mewtwo. I must have tried this like 50 times the score was 1-0.

 

[Chiroz]

Im working off the sparks, not the other character. If I tested this vs G&W who has no z-depth, it would be the exact same. The spark shows the maximum range of any attack.

When I zoomed into both images and counted the pixels it was literally 98 pixels for both attacks from the same angle/distance, however in one instance, I managed to clip marth in a equally-timed dtilt battle. I never once managed to hit mewtwo. I must have tried this like 50 times the score was 1-0.

No, you don't get what he means.

This game has a Z axis. In order for attacks to hit the hurtbox and the hitbox of the attack MUST collide on a point, that is equal X, Y and Z axis.

Mewtwo on most attacks swings his tail through the Z axis which means that at certain points of the animation his hurtbox might be completely untouchable by moves that do not enter that part of the Z axis (like most if not all of Marth's attacks).

While this is good for us since it means the tail's hurtbox is basically "not there", it also means the hitbox might not be there at that point, but the main issue is that you must test the "spark" right at the moment when the tail is completely outstretched, because that's when most of the tail is in the correct Z-Axis.



A good example of this is DK's F-Smash which has him slap from outside the Z-Axis into the correct Z-Axis. It doesn't hurt the opponent and the opponent cannot hurt DK's hand until the smash is done, and even at that point there's a huge blindspot that occurs because of this Z-Axis motion.




Also if you're performing D-Tilts at the same time, most often than not the one to come out first will lose (because the hurtbox will stretch outwards while the other hurtbox isn't there, then the hitbox of the second attack will hit the now outstretched hurtbox of the first attack). And you cannot honestly believe you are able to be 1 frame accurate (1/60th of a second or less) between both inputs.

 

[Browny]

I am quite well aware of that, I've been around for a while.

The frame I took those screenshots at is the maximum tail stretch. I thought that was clear in the screenshots it was all taken on the same frame.

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

You're counting pixels? The characters are different sizes though. @.@

I was referring just to the pic with Marth's Dtilt. Where it appears his sword reaches inside his foot without connecting, which is due to it being on a different Z axis. The display of how much range it has is very unclear. The other pictures looked fine to me. It seems Mewtwo's tail doesn't have a hurtbox approximately1/3rd of the base closest to the tip. I'm assuming it's not move specific.

edit: asked a dumb question that I immediately remembered the answer to. whoops

 

[Rhus]

I have a potentially silly question.

So if Mewtwo teleports down into the stage and the teleport doesn't reach full length before "hitting" the ground, Mewtwo moves in an L shape, moving the approximate remaining distance of the teleport left or right, dependant on which way he is facing.

Now, when you do this you have noticeable lag as Mewtwo reappears. However, if you perform the teleport the approximate distance above the stage that is slightly more than the maximum range of teleport, he has a landing animation lag, rather than the "reappearance" lag from the teleport.

Are these two lag times different? The second one looks a lot shorter but when I was testing how early I could shield/Jab from it it felt very similar in lag time if not the same. The reason I ask this is on Battlefield/Miiverse/Dreamland we can teleport our maximum distance from the top platform into the stage without getting the "reappearance" lag, is this a practical way of moving around this stage and repositioning (obviously as long as you aren't practically teleporting right on top of them)?

 

[Chiroz]

I have a potentially silly question.

So if Mewtwo teleports down into the stage and the teleport doesn't reach full length before "hitting" the ground, Mewtwo moves in an L shape, moving the approximate remaining distance of the teleport left or right, dependant on which way he is facing.

Now, when you do this you have noticeable lag as Mewtwo reappears. However, if you perform the teleport the approximate distance above the stage that is slightly more than the maximum range of teleport, he has a landing animation lag, rather than the "reappearance" lag from the teleport.

Are these two lag times different? The second one looks a lot shorter but when I was testing how early I could shield/Jab from it it felt very similar in lag time if not the same. The reason I ask this is on Battlefield/Miiverse/Dreamland we can teleport our maximum distance from the top platform into the stage without getting the "reappearance" lag, is this a practical way of moving around this stage and repositioning (obviously as long as you aren't practically teleporting right on top of them)?

When Mewtwo Teleports, at the end of the Teleport he has a "twirl" animation. When Mewtwo's Teleport ends in the air he also has this twirl animation and then when he lands he gets ANOTHER landing animation (double lag). This is why teleporting in the air on top of the stage is mostly always a bad idea.

It is possible to Teleport at a range where Mewtwo is still in the air but his twirling animation makes him land, this will cancel the twirling animation and initiate the landing animation. The landing animation is shorter than the twirling animation, it also allows Mewtwo to "slide" briefly.

It is possible to Teleport at a distance where the twirling animation is not even seen (cancels frame 1 by the landing animation), if you are able to do this then you will have less lag. This is kind of hard to do consistently though and the lag is still there (it's just a little bit less), it mostly happens when you teleport perfectly above the ground or teleport in a perfect diagonal.



So to answer your question: Yes, there are ways to have less landing lag when teleporting into the ground (although it's slightly less lag), it's a distance/angle relation that I honestly don't know that well.

 

[Rhus]

When Mewtwo Teleports, at the end of the Teleport he has a "twirl" animation. When Mewtwo's Teleport ends in the air he also has this twirl animation and then when he lands he gets ANOTHER landing animation (double lag). This is why teleporting in the air on top of the stage is mostly always a bad idea.

It is possible to Teleport at a range where Mewtwo is still in the air but his twirling animation makes him land, this will cancel the twirling animation and initiate the landing animation. The landing animation is shorter than the twirling animation, it also allows Mewtwo to "slide" briefly.

It is possible to Teleport at a distance where the twirling animation is not even seen (cancels frame 1 by the landing animation), if you are able to do this then you will have less lag. This is kind of hard to do consistently though and the lag is still there (it's just a little bit less), it mostly happens when you teleport perfectly above the ground or teleport in a perfect diagonal.



So to answer your question: Yes, there are ways to have less landing lag when teleporting into the ground (although it's slightly less lag), it's a distance/angle relation that I honestly don't know that well.

Wow, thanks for the speedy response!

Yeah so it is like I thought then. I was messing around a lot with Teleport just seeing what we can do with it and the lag on it is really saddening. I mean, I found out that on Battlefield you can teleport left and right between the two platforms regardless of your position on them, but this won't always work on Dreamland (they are further apart than Miiverse and BF). I was fiddling with Teleporting down into the edges of the platforms to teleport cancel, but was having a hard time consistently doing it like I can with the edges of the stage.

Also found out Mewtwo can go under FD which is neat but not all that practical.

 

[Browny]

You're counting pixels? The characters are different sizes though. @.@

I was referring just to the pic with Marth's Dtilt. Where it appears his sword reaches inside his foot without connecting, which is due to it being on a different Z axis. The display of how much range it has is very unclear. The other pictures looked fine to me. It seems Mewtwo's tail doesn't have a hurtbox approximately1/3rd of the base closest to the tip. I'm assuming it's not move specific.

edit: asked a dumb question that I immediately remembered the answer to. whoops

Look I'll explain this clearly.

All attacks in smash 4, and brawl, will 'spark' if the attack is literally a pixel away from hitting. This shows an attacks maximum range. If a character has a hurtbox with a z depth and the attack clearly goes through them, the spark might appear inside a characters hurtbox, but it will only ever appear on the pixel outside the maximum range of an attack.

http://i.imgur.com/JMdumps.png

Here is the disjoint on bair, within +/- 2 pixels. That looks very consistent with the disjoint on dtilt so it might not be move-specific.

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

All attacks in smash 4, and brawl, will 'spark' if the attack is literally a pixel away from hitting. This shows an attacks maximum range. If a character has a hurtbox with a z depth and the attack clearly goes through them, the spark might appear inside a characters hurtbox, but it will only ever appear on the pixel outside the maximum range of an attack.

Yes I know that. Your picture does a great job of representing the Z axis and vertical range of Marth's Dtilt, but I thought the whole point was how far it reaches horizontally which it does not represent very well.

 

[Browny]

What?

The spark shows the maximum horizontal range... Marths dtilt doesn't have maximum range along the ground, I haven't seen anything which would suggest that.

 

[Chiroz]

I just played like 20 games of Mewtwo dittos.

The guy was quite decent. He taught me to not underestimate U-Tilt (at least against floaties and small characters).

It true comboes into Jab throughout all %s from the sweetspot. I now have a new found respect for U-Tilt as a combo starter against some specific chars. Before I thought it was just inferior to just using D-Tilt, now I see that U-Tilt can lead into Jab which opens up a plethora of other stuff.

 

[Chiroz]

So, IDK if anyone had noticed but 1.0.8 actually fixed something that I hadn't noticed. Shadow Ball doesn't die on platforms anymore. It was like a huge thing I hated because Shadow Ball would always die in most platform stages. It's funny I hadn't even noticed yet it's something that happens every game.