Guide Mr. Fuji's Journal - Moveset Thread - Hiatus

[---]

It's been about a week, so I might as well change the topic to Aerials now.

Personally I have a tough time connecting M2's aerials bar Neutral/Forward. D-Air is situational (although it can hit through platforms/thin stages as Zero showed off in a recent video). Up-Air is easy to see coming, and B-Air I find to be too slow, especially with it's weird hitboxes.

Will have to look up that Smash Corner video again, but what was the trick to placing an opponent in front of you after N-Air again?

 

[Karsticles]

There is a way to control Nair's ending? :-O

Uair is easy to see coming, but Uair, double jump, Nair is hard.

Dair constantly surprises me. Its hitbox is significantly lower than the animation suggests.

My biggest issue is spacing Bair in the ground neutral.

 

[---]

If B-Air just came out a couple frames faster...I swear it always feels delayed.

There is a way to control Nair's ending? :-O

https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=75&v=diKq-5VgQa0

@1:05 Seems situational, IDK I still have a lot of practicing to do.

 

[meleebrawler]

The key to using Uair well lies in abusing it's horizontal reach. While it's at it's strongest if you center it,
positioning Mewtwo to do so can make it obvious. Put him underneath and to the left or right of an opponent, however,
and they will have a much harder time predicting it, while minimizing the risk of retaliation since there aren't many
aerials that can hit those angles well. The low base knockback and growth can lead to interesting followups, particularly
near the ground.

Don't use bair in ground neutral, it's too slow and his tilts plus fair do the job better. Only use bair against ground
opponents if they're on a platform or as a last-ditch defence.

Dair can be done in a short hop, but it isn't generally safe to go for except as a rare mixup. If you're in the air and the opponent
whiffs a relatively laggy anti-air, though, don't hesitate to attack with this. The spike is strong enough to KO people onstage.
To land the sweetspot, ensure that Mewtwo is centered and that the opponent's body isn't overlapping. Though a sourspot
is quite strong in it's own right, and can make for surprise KOs off the top.

 

[Chiroz]

If B-Air just came out a couple frames faster...I swear it always feels delayed.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=75&v=diKq-5VgQa0

@1:05 Seems situational, IDK I still have a lot of practicing to do.

While I haven't practiced that at all, I will say that I am extremely certain that the opponent is able to move before Mewtwo is. So the "effectiveness" of this tech is based completely on catching them by surprise. Which isn't bad, Confusion basically works the same way and I use Confusion a lot to "surprise" opponents into some punish.

 

[---]

While I haven't practiced that at all, I will say that I am extremely certain that the opponent is able to move before Mewtwo is. So the "effectiveness" of this tech is based completely on catching them by surprise. Which isn't bad, Confusion basically works the same way and I use Confusion a lot to "surprise" opponents into some punish.

So what would be the general purpose/use of N-Air, as quite frankly it seems like it has a lot of weaknesses?

BTW does it have the same ending lag as landing when used in the air?

 

[Chiroz]

So what would be the general purpose/use of N-Air, as quite frankly it seems like it has a lot of weaknesses?

BTW does it have the same ending lag as landing when used in the air?

N-Air has the same lag as long as you land before the move ends, if you wait for the last hit then there's no lag at all whether you land it or not (but you won't be able to follow up since it sends your opponent away). A completely aerial N-Air is actually very lagless, if you're double jumping most of the time you can get a combo out of it.

But depending on where you catch your opponent with the N-Air (and if the have a sex kick) sometimes they can DI out of 1 hit of the N-Air, which is enough to N-Air you in the face (Mario, Luigi, Sheik, Link, etc). So be wary of opponents who might try to do that. I saw this video of Trela vs a Sheik where he kept getting punished by Sheik's N-Air even though he landed his own N-Air. I do think though that this is completely dependent on where your opponent is when you hit him the first time and how Mewtwo is moving through the air (+ opponent DIng in an specific way).



The technique shown in the video, I can't do it consistently, but it's still good. It's not an assured combo as the opponent has frame advantage but most of the time you'll be able to react to it faster than your opponent. The better your opponent though, the more useless the technique will become.



I use N-Air as several things:

1-) Anti-Air.

I use Full Hop FF N-Airs or SH (Non-fast falled) N-Airs to intercept my opponent in the air if it's too obvious that he will approach me aerially, but I make sure to get that last hit in (so I have no lag and don't get punished).

2-) Spacing myself.

Since N-Air is a multi-hit move, you can start the move inside your opponent (or space it perfectly too) and then move away. If your opponent shields the first hit you can safely get away from him and avoid any punish. I normally use it in this way when my opponent is too close for comfort and I am unsure what he will do.

N-Air is probably one of the safest options as Grab can be beaten by an attack, Shield can be beaten by grabs and an Attack can be beaten by shield. SH retreating N-Air beats dodges and attacks and is nigh unpunisheable by anything except projectiles if your opponent decides to shield it. I also use it a lot for just regular spacing but I use more F-Air for that.

3-) Cross Ups and Mix Ups.

I do N-Air a lot when doing cross ups. I make sure to land outside of grab range when doing this and normally this isn't very dangerous as N-Air doesn't have much lag, so you are able to run away from most tilt's/smashes.

I also use it as a mix up when my opponent is expecting some other aerial and might drop shield early or attack with some laggy move or... air dodge...

That reminds me... N-Air is great for catching air dodges, and get ups and ledge get ups since it's a lingering hitbox

4-) Punishing Rolls.

I want to punish rolls with something much more rewarding (like a jab or D-Tilt which can lead into combos) but most of the time Mewtwo's body is so big that it makes "calculating" whether your opponent will end up in front or behind you harder than it should be (and sometimes opponents end up inside Mewtwo at a range that Mewtwo CANNOT jab, grab or D-Tilt as it all misses because the opponent is too close, which is complete bull**** but w/e).

N-Air is the "safe and easy" roll punisher since it requires no timing or spacing, after your opponent rolls you can adjust the spacing and the lingering hitbox makes it so you don't have to time it correctly. That said if you can tell exactly where your opponent will end up probably the best punish is a jab combo or a smash if they end up in front of you and a Disable if they end up behind you (which can lead into whatever you want, including charged smashes).




Apart from that I don't think N-Air is that great. The technique in the video is kinda ok I guess. I always try to follow up my N-Airs when I land, just in case I get them but honestly I end up missing more than half of the follow ups due to spacing or w/e and I get punished myself with jabs when my opponent is fast on his feet so trying to follow up normally does me more bad than good.

Still I think that just like Confusion or D-Throw, FF N-Air has some uses in the sense that you can try and get a reaction from your opponent and then punish that reaction.

 

[meleebrawler]

The best way to get full hits of nair is basically jumping into your opponent. Fatties like Bowser also have a tough
time escaping it. The cool thing about it is that if you are confident you'll get the last hit in the air, you can fastfall
to the ground in advance while the opponent is popped up in order to better juggle them.

Nair can also be used to gimp bad recoveries, by dragging them down and away from the stage and ideally avoiding
the last hit. It works well against the air dodges they might do like @ Chiroz said.

It's usefulness as an anti-air somewhat depends on the disjoints and range of your opponents aerials. It works great
against characters like Kirby or Jigglypuff, but Marth can space himself against it pretty easily.

The best move for hitting people uncomfortably close to Mewtwo is dsmash, although it does require advance preparation.
Usmash can work too, but only if they're tall enough. Otherwise nair is the safest option in this situation. Still, if the enemy is prone
to rolling at Mewtwo, don't be afraid to try charging dsmashes to get them. The penalty for missing is quite low.

Bottom line: nair isn't the workhorse aerial that you'll be using 80% of the time you're not comboing or juggling like in Melee, but it can still help land hits when it seems like no other move can, particularly against air dodges.

One last random factoid about utilt: it often triggers counters safely :D.

 

[Karsticles]

You are at the ledge, and Captain Falcon runs up to you and shields out of grab range. What do you do?

 

[Smog Frog]

i dont use against and neither should you

but if you need an answer, if its just outside of grab range, i think dtilts safe

 

[Karsticles]

i dont use against and neither should you

but if you need an answer, if its just outside of grab range, i think dtilts safe

I am a character specialist. I use Mewtwo against everyone.

 

[meleebrawler]

You are at the ledge, and Captain Falcon runs up to you and shields out of grab range. What do you do?

You mean normal grab range? Cause if so then confusion could work.

If he keeps dashing and shielding at the same distance try dash attacking him before he gets in that position,
or do a dash grab once he does get there. You could also use a charged shadow ball which can discourage shield for a little
bit and catches back rolls. A max range disable can surprise him too.

 

[---]

It's been a week, so we might as well get to the final group of moves (customs be damned): throws.

Is there any actual use for F-Throw outside of 3+ player matches? To which in that regard, might it be a good move to consider for Doubles?

B/U-Throws are for kills, but I can't find too much use for D-Throw given it can be hard to follow up with.

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

iirc F throw does the most damage.

 

[---]

iirc F throw does the most damage.

If all hits connect it does 10%, but even with the large heavy characters that doesn't really happen. I think it's also been said opponents can DI out of it .

 

[Smog Frog]

fthrow is pretty bad. however, dthrow and uthrow set up advantageous positions. also, bthrow near the ledge kills earlier than uthrow in center stage, so that's one worth considering.


has an eh pummel, but it works. jab also sets up a grab(i think this is guaranteed on everyone but the smallest characters? it's always worked for me).

 

[meleebrawler]

It's been a week, so we might as well get to the final group of moves (customs be damned): throws.

Is there any actual use for F-Throw outside of 3+ player matches? To which in that regard, might it be a good move to consider for Doubles?

B/U-Throws are for kills, but I can't find too much use for D-Throw given it can be hard to follow up with.

When you just want the opponent away from you so you can charge your shadow balls in peace, fthrow's
balls easily give you the space you need. It also sets up edgeguards well even at low percents like Ness's.
It may not always be reliable in maximizing damage, but you can always count on this throw to give him some breathing
room, which is really important for Mewtwo.

Think of dthrow as an alternate Confusion that puts the opponents a bit further away from Mewtwo. You won't generally
get a smash followup unless they fall towards you, though the added distance makes it more difficult for them to retaliate
immediately.

Uthrow generally should be kept fresh for kills. Only use it for juggles as a last resort for when nothing else seems to work,
like say a slippery airborne opponent who can just move away from Mewtwo after dthrow without having to jump. (Dash attack
after dthrow works on most opponents who don't jump).

Bthrow is simple. Just use it whenever your back is turned to the ledge to set up an edgeguard or possibly KO. You can use
it like like fthrow to get space, but then why not just use that one instead and keep bthrow fresher?

I really feel the need to reiterate just how important fthrow is to Mewtwo in spite of lacking any KO or combo potential.
Instead it does something possibly even more valuable for him: it helps him end close-range pressure that gives him so much
trouble. Mewtwo is at his best when he keeps his opponents out of arm's reach until he sees an opportunity to attack.

If all hits connect it does 10%, but even with the large heavy characters that doesn't really happen. I think it's also been said opponents can DI out of it .

Not sure about DI, but I have seen Yoshi escape the throw with his double jump, so maybe other frame 1 armour moves
like Charizard's Rock Hurl or Jr's Grounding Dash could dodge it?

fthrow is pretty bad. however, dthrow and uthrow set up advantageous positions. also, bthrow near the ledge kills earlier than uthrow in center stage, so that's one worth considering.


has an eh pummel, but it works. jab also sets up a grab(i think this is guaranteed on everyone but the smallest characters? it's always worked for me).

Just be careful not to try jab>grab if you just hit them with confusion, else the regrab immunity will still be in effect.
His isn't as reliable as Palutena's since his grab is short so it's important to know when you can go for a grab or just
use the jab combo to get space.

(Or consider using disable after jab instead, especially if you've discouraged shield).

 

[Marigi174]

I like following D throw up with a fully charged Shadow Ball personally. It gets huge damage against opponents who opt not to jump, and launching it a frame or two later than you would if you were to use shadow ball on the first possible frame lets you read if they'll jump or tech, and if they tech shadow ball is a guaranteed hit while it is good to punish a jump with an up tilt or something (can't quite remember which move(s) you need to use - i just used mewtwo's longest reaching ground attack to save me thinking XD).

 

[---]

Not sure about DI, but I have seen Yoshi escape the throw with his double jump, so maybe other frame 1 armour moves
like Charizard's Rock Hurl or Jr's Grounding Dash could dodge it?

Yoshi was who I was thinking of. Maybe it's just character specific then?

 

[Karsticles]

I had a Greninja get out of Fthrow last night by using Shadow Sneak or Substitution, I forget which. I think Substitution.

 

[meleebrawler]

I had a Greninja get out of Fthrow last night by using Shadow Sneak or Substitution, I forget which. I think Substitution.

I could buy it being Shadow Sneak since it has hitstun cancelling properties. Ask the Greninja boards for more info.

 

[Spirst]

Yep, as a former Greninja main, I can verify that it does have hitstun canceling properties. I believe that it's the only move able to do so after peanut popgun canceling and rush canceling were patched out. You can shadow sneak hitstun cancel out of moves like Sheik's fsmash, Donkey Kong's up B (default), and so on. It has 12 frames of startup though so it's not as useful as rush canceling was. Given Mewtwo's fthrow launches three weak shadow balls, I'm not at all surprised Greninja can do it. Sad for Mewtwo though.

 

[meleebrawler]

Yep, as a former Greninja main, I can verify that it does have hitstun canceling properties. I believe that it's the only move able to do so after peanut popgun canceling and rush canceling were patched out. You can shadow sneak hitstun cancel out of moves like Sheik's fsmash, Donkey Kong's up B (default), and so on. It has 12 frames of startup though so it's not as useful as rush canceling was. Given Mewtwo's fthrow launches three weak shadow balls, I'm not at all surprised Greninja can do it. Sad for Mewtwo though.

But how easy is it for Greninja to do it consistently? Like, does Greninja have to mash out SS quickly in order to escape?
Because if so he runs the risk doing it after a dthrow instead and leave himself wide open. He might hit Mewtwo with it at low
percents but them Mewtwo can just shield.

Also fthrow launches way more than three balls. And even if opponents escape it somehow it still fulfills it's function of creating space.

 

[Smog Frog]

But how easy is it for Greninja to do it consistently? Like, does Greninja have to mash out SS quickly in order to escape?
Because if so he runs the risk doing it after a dthrow instead and leave himself wide open. He might hit Mewtwo with it at low
percents but them Mewtwo can just shield.

Also fthrow launches way more than three balls. And even if opponents escape it somehow it still fulfills it's function of creating space.

i think he has to use shadow sneak before he gets grabbed because from my testing, shadow sneak seems to interrupt the current state you are in to attack. it works with taunts too.

 

[lavagolem123]

Of course there aren't any true combos out of d-throw, but I find it pretty useful since it forces the opponent into two scenarios in low to mid percents. Should they opt to not jump, the general reaction is airdodging or mashing an aerial (characters with frame 3 nairs and stuff like to do this). In that case it's easy to walk up and time a Disable, d-tilt, Shadowball, etc. to catch them in their landing lag. When (or if) they figure out they could jump away, it kinda resets to neutral and you can simply charge Shadowball or fire it off to apply some pressure. If your opponent habitually airdodges, then d-throw eats them alive since it provides Mewtwo with hella opportunities to gain position or rack up damage fairly easily. D-throw at the ledge seems to scare people too if you run off at them. Generally it'll bait an airdodge and then you can follow with a f-air.

As mentioned before, u-throw and b-throw are kill throws. The only use I see for F-throw is like at the ledge or something to gain a positional advantage.

 

[Enoki]

f-throw can put an opponent into a very bad position when used at the edge of the stage - if the opponent double jumps (which a smart player should never do - save that jump!) or you read their airdodge and bair them, it puts them at a very convenient height for a bair chain. Against fastfallers like Falcon, they have to react properly or it can be an easy gimp. Basically it's just a positional advantage throw.
But f-throw also looks freaking cool which is the most important bit

I like dair as a conditioning move - I usually use it as my first throw of the game and watch how my opponent reacts. An airdodge or mashed attack can mean a free smash, disable, or another grab. If they always jump away, it gives you an opportunity to punish their landing. It's kind of like a tech chase situation (especially if they tech) , so mixups and reactions are very important.

I think all of Mewtwo's throws are useful.

Sidenote: because Mewtwo has such meh grab range, I suggest boost grabbing every time you go for a dash grab (cancel a dash attack with a grab) – you never know when that teeny bit of extra range will help!

 

[MagiusNecros]

I find Mewtwo might have to practice Shield Grab finesse much like Ganonondorf has to.

 

[---]

It's been a week, so unless anyone wants to talk about Final Smashes, I guess it's time to start work on the OP.

inb4 Lucas update containing a balance patch.

 

[MagiusNecros]

M2's FS ignores invincibility. Balance patch with Lucas seems plausible.

 

[Karsticles]

M2's FS ignores invincibility. Balance patch with Lucas seems plausible.

Testable example?

 

[meleebrawler]

Testable example?

It ignores most forms of invincibility from dodging or moves and is unblockable. Only a Starman affected player is unaffected.

 

[Karsticles]

It ignores most forms of invincibility from dodging or moves and is unblockable. Only a Starman affected player is unaffected.

Starman?

Oh, I thought FS = Fsmash.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Starman?

Oh, I thought FS = Fsmash.

Ha ha if only

 

[Marigi174]

Starman?

Oh, I thought FS = Fsmash.

F-Smash broken plz ban

Also starman is what you get when you pick up the star item.

 

[meleebrawler]

F-Smash broken plz ban

Also starman is what you get when you pick up the star item.

Not to be confused with the Starman Assist Trophy from Earthbound.

 

[Marigi174]

Not to be confused with the Starman Assist Trophy from Earthbound.

or the smash run enemy of the same character

 

[---]

Finally started to make time for this. Will try to kick this project back up later this week with a new PM group.

Already started playing around with the Up-Tilt strings, and it seems that Lucas is good, but Roy/Ryu you need to Jab 1 with first.

 

[Chiroz]

Finally started to make time for this. Will try to kick this project back up later this week with a new PM group.

Already started playing around with the Up-Tilt strings, and it seems that Lucas is good, but Roy/Ryu you need to Jab 1 with first.

I want to give Mewtwo another try. I really like Roy, very hyped for him. But I really want to make Mewtwo possible. Invite me to any kind of PM stuff you're doing if you can. Let's make Mewtwo happen!

 

[lavagolem123]

I know the topic is still throws talk, but I have been experimenting with full hop nairs quite a bit. It ends just before you hit the ground so there's aerial coverage and no lag. A bonus is that you can sneak a fair in right before you land too should you want to cover that bit of time before you hit the floor. You'll have lag, but it is minimal and very hard to get punished if you space the fair properly. I've had pretty good results with it so far.

If you do not decide to fair, a dtilt or even a down b on landing is a great mixup option since most will want to shield and punish as fast as they can.

Unfortunately smaller chars, Shiek, Fox, and Falcon seem to be the hardest to use this against from what I've experienced. Has anyone else tried this?

 

[Karsticles]

I know the topic is still throws talk, but I have been experimenting with full hop nairs quite a bit. It ends just before you hit the ground so there's aerial coverage and no lag. A bonus is that you can sneak a fair in right before you land too should you want to cover that bit of time before you hit the floor. You'll have lag, but it is minimal and very hard to get punished if you space the fair properly. I've had pretty good results with it so far.

If you do not decide to fair, a dtilt or even a down b on landing is a great mixup option since most will want to shield and punish as fast as they can.

Unfortunately smaller chars, Shiek, Fox, and Falcon seem to be the hardest to use this against from what I've experienced. Has anyone else tried this?

It is often better to fast fall the full hop Nair. If you slightly delay the fast fall past your peak, you will finish Nair directly above the ground with zero landing lag. It is pretty much the only approach option against DHD with customs.