Motion Control competition

[DivineBlade]

It seems like Xbox is coming out with a new intuitive way to play games. Enters the NADAL technology that allows motion control, BUT with no controller O_o I'm sure most of you are gonna say Xbox is just copying the Wii (despite their avatar creation and attempt to make a motion controller resembling the Wii remote). Even though we are unaware of their intention of copying Nintendo or becoming friendly partners with Nintendo's third party subordinates. DO you think this is a threat to Nintendo's market or will they crash and burn in flames?

LET THE BATTLE BEGIN!!!!

 

[Cashed]

While Project Natal shows a lot of promise, two vital questions weren't addressed during E3:

1) How much is it going to cost?
2) When the **** is it coming out?

 

[The Halloween Captain]

It seems like Xbox is coming out with a new intuitive way to play games. Enters the NADAL technology that allows motion control, BUT with no controller O_o I'm sure most of you are gonna say Xbox is just copying the Wii (despite their avatar creation and attempt to make a motion controller resembling the Wii remote). Even though we are unaware of their intention of copying Nintendo or becoming friendly partners with Nintendo's third party subordinates. DO you think this is a threat to Nintendo's market or will they crash and burn in flames?

LET THE BATTLE BEGIN!!!!

Actually, they're copying Sony's eyetoy. I would be surprised if it didn't share the same level of success and mainstream acceptance that they eye toy did.

And because I do not believe the eyetoy changed the gaming industry significantly, I would say this is about as much a threat to Nintendo as Nintendo's bongos from DK Jungle Beat were a threat to Sony's PS2 dominance. That is to say, none whatsoever.

EDIT: I agree with Cashed.

 

[Cashed]

The Eye Toy and Natal are very different. Microsoft's carbon-copy of the Eye Toy was the Vision Camera, which pretty much nobody purchased ('cept me!). The Eye Toy couldn't track 3D movement, multiple people, have facial recognition, voice recognition, etc. Natal is unlike anything Sony or Nintendo has done.

 

[DivineBlade]

The Eye Toy and Natal are very different. Microsoft's carbon-copy of the Eye Toy was the Vision Camera, which pretty much nobody purchased ('cept me!). The Eye Toy couldn't track 3D movement, multiple people, have facial recognition, voice recognition, etc. Natal is unlike anything Sony or Nintendo has done.

Very good point, I forgot to mention the facial and voice recognition. The cost of this might be pretty **** high. It's amazing what we can do these days.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

The Eye Toy and Natal are very different. Microsoft's carbon-copy of the Eye Toy was the Vision Camera, which pretty much nobody purchased ('cept me!). The Eye Toy couldn't track 3D movement, multiple people, have facial recognition, voice recognition, etc. Natal is unlike anything Sony or Nintendo has done.

Ah, well my experience with voice recognition is that it is never an acceptable form of imput except when absolutely necesary, such as with a blue-tooth headset (and maybe Phoenix Wright). This is compounded by the amount of skill I have witnessed 3rd parties put into motion controls - voice recognition seems to be in many ways entirely dependent on the programming, and I do not foresee 3rd party success at properly utilizing it.

Now be honest - you witnessed the E3 demo, but I only caught snipits; outside of Milo and voice recognition, is there anything they showed that cannot be done on an eyetoy?

Actually I feel the greatest hurdles for Natal will be 1. It has to be packaged with all future Xbox's, or it will not become anything. 2. It requires totally new programs for controls.

Even if they created the most perfect 3D camera, the fact is that someone has to create programs to take the camera's imput and turn it into a game. With the tremendous amount of failure we have witnessed with wii attempts, I cannot see this happening any faster than it has happened with the wii. That is, it will take years, and there will be a lot of below average shovelware, if it ever manages to become an accepted standard.

 

[Cashed]

It can't be too difficult to program for-- Milo was created in three months. And that's Lionhead. Lionhead is notorious for slow development.

It's evident you are trying to be tough on Natal with your continued comparisons to the Eye Toy. It isn't like the Eye Toy. The Eye Toy could sense movement. That's it. Natal can track the slightest movements, track 3D motions, blah blah everything I've already stated. But I'll answer your question. Yes, everything that Microsoft showcased at E3 with Natal is impossible for the Eye Toy to do.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

It can't be too difficult to program for-- Milo was created in three months. And that's Lionhead. Lionhead is notorious for slow development.

It's evident you are trying to be tough on Natal with your continued comparisons to the Eye Toy. It isn't like the Eye Toy. The Eye Toy could sense movement. That's it. Natal can track the slightest movements, track 3D motions, blah blah everything I've already stated. But I'll answer your question. Yes, everything that Microsoft showcased at E3 with Natal is impossible for the Eye Toy to do.

Of course I'm being tough on Natal. I am not only an eternal skeptic, but I've seen it before.

The eyetoy seems like a fair comparison because it came out in the sixth gen(I believe). That would mean it was about as inovative back then as Natal is now. I would say the primary difference is that the wii came in the seventh gen of consoles and proved that motion technology was an acceptable control scheme for video games.

And as for voice recognition, the Nintendo DS has it. It is simply rare to see utilized. In pokemon you can actually use it as a telephone of sorts via the Pokemon Center Wifi connection (not that new Platinum plaza thing though), and conversation is actually both easy and intelligible. The problem is in the programming, which has simply never been correctly utilized for that medium of imput.

Finally, on the topic of Milo - Milo as an AI exceedes everything else in the demo by so much, I am actually skeptical because it is too good. This has been compounded by a lot of talk that many of Lionhead's projects are hyped as much more revolutionary than they inevitably turn out. The voice recognition software used for Milo is so apparently advanced that I can't actually believe it works as consistenly as it is advertised to work, as no comparable voice recognition has worked so accurately. Furthermore, the AI is simply too intelligent. As in, it is more intelligent than actual people at recognizing voice patterns and facial expressions. This should be impossible, simply because so many voice patterns and facial expressions are contextual, as in, relative to a given situation, and I'd imagine programming has a tough time with context. Furthermore, being able to give Milo a picture? There is an entire game devoted solely to that called Scribblenaughts(?), as in a game that can take any word in the dictionary and form a picture out of it. But unlike words pictures are not absolute and can vary - two pictures of a car can look very different, and often a badly drawn horse looks like a cat. No program should be able to handle that task with consistency.

However, the part of Milo that is handled by Natal technology is very believable, just not the AI Milo itself.

 

[Cashed]

You are comparing old technology to new technology once again.

Eye Toy =/= Natal
DS voice recognition =/= Natal voice recognition

Voice recognition has come a long way, believe it or not. Did you play Tom Clancy's End War? Probably not. The entire game is played using voice commands, and as long as you don't stray from the words that the game instructs you to use, it works amazingly well. But that's using a crappy 360 headset microphone. Those things are cheap. Not as cheap as the DS's microphone, but cheap. Seeing Natal at E3 you can definitely tell-- it ain't gonna run cheap. The voice recognition was primarily demoed using Milo, because uh, most of the game appears to be you talking to Milo and forming a relationship. But yeah, from what was shown and from reading hands-on impressions, it works very well. Multiple press members got to speak to Milo and they will tell you-- he is very real. Peter Molyneux would first instruct the person to introduce them self to Milo. I didn't find a hands-on where the person wasn't greeted with their name in return. Everyone was greeted with a "Oh hello [enter name here]!" That's a lot of voice recording and a lot of voice recognition at work. Like you touched on, Milo senses your emotions through your speech. What other game does that? If you're sensing emotion through speech... that's gotta show something for how far voice recognition has come.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

You are comparing old technology to new technology once again.

Eye Toy =/= Natal
DS voice recognition =/= Natal voice recognition

Voice recognition has come a long way, believe it or not. Did you play Tom Clancy's End War? Probably not. The entire game is played using voice commands, and as long as you don't stray from the words that the game instructs you to use, it works amazingly well. But that's using a crappy 360 headset microphone. Those things are cheap. Not as cheap as the DS's microphone, but cheap. Seeing Natal at E3 you can definitely tell-- it ain't gonna run cheap. The voice recognition was primarily demoed using Milo, because uh, most of the game appears to be you talking to Milo and forming a relationship. But yeah, from what was shown and from reading hands-on impressions, it works very well. Multiple press members got to speak to Milo and they will tell you-- he is very real. Peter Molyneux would first instruct the person to introduce them self to Milo. I didn't find a hands-on where the person wasn't greeted with their name in return. Everyone was greeted with a "Oh hello [enter name here]!" That's a lot of voice recording and a lot of voice recognition at work. Like you touched on, Milo senses your emotions through your speech. What other game does that? If you're sensing emotion through speech... that's gotta show something for how far voice recognition has come.

For the most part, I doubt the microphone is an issue with voice technology anymore - it's probably all in the programming. And no, I haven't played end war.

Now getting Milo to parrot your name back to you is nothing. As you said, all it has to say "Oh hello [insert name here]!" Getting Milo to say it in his voice is harder, but I suppose doable. But getting Milo to recognize the pictures you draw, unless they are preset, is simply impossible.

My entire point about Milo recognizing your emotions through speech is that no other game does that. If nothing else can do it, why should we believe that Milo, after a scant 3 months, has uncovered some miracle of AI where it can not only recognize everything you say with 100% accuracy, but recognize the emotions you expresss while saying it?

Milo is too intelligent. What we saw Milo do should not be possible, and this belief is furthered by the fact we saw so little of Milo. I do believe the secret to Milo is that it doesn't actually talk to you though - while it interacts with you, you aren't going to be able to hold a conversation with it.

Eye Toy is the PS2 equivalent to Natal IMO. So I am using Eye Toy as a point of reference to predict the success of Natal. Because I think for it's time, eye toy was probably just as revolutionary as Natal.

EDIT: I will add that just because something can be done does not mean it will be done. The wii-mote can add to the gameplay experience through fun and intuitive motion controls, but for the most part this simply hasn't happened. Likewise, Natal can be a revolution in gaming using it's unique control style to it's fullest extent, but I also don't see developers taking the time and effort to make it that, simply because they didn't put the time and effort into the wii necesary to make it's control scheme fundamentally better than the PS3 and Xbox 360 control scheme. Why should they changed their strategy and approach for Natal?

 

[Cashed]

Oh, Light House. Never change.

 

[Mic_128]

when they had game journalists testing Milo there was a guy on the computer that was running Milo, so it's posible that they were "filling the gaps" so to speak.

and sorry Cashed, but I have to agree. Natal just seems like an Eyetoy that detects 3d movement with a few extra cameras and has a microphone on it.

Eyetoy+2 cameras+Wii Speak Mic = Natal.

 

[Zoids-Raven]

The "Natal" WILL fail if they don't lower the cost.
(From what someone told me, it will cost over 200 bucks. No casual gamer will pay over 200 bucks for this.)

The Wii has been doing motion controls for YEARS, the "Natal" needs more time.

This DIDN'T copy the Wii, SONY DID.. LOL XD (Can't wait to see what N4G.com has to say now.)

BTW: Now that the "Natal" is out.............. It's time for a new Star Wars game on the Xbox360.

 

[DivineBlade]

BTW: Now that the "Natal" is out.............. It's time for a new Star Wars game on the Xbox360.

Aren't they comng out with the new Knights of the Old Republic?

 

[Zoids-Raven]

Aren't they comng out with the new Knights of the Old Republic?

I mean for the "Natal"..

 

[Jimnymebob]

I doubt NATAL will appeal to the average XBox 360 owner, who probably bought the console for "hardcore" games like Halo and GOW.

All I can see is that they will brag about how it blows the Wii out of the water, but they won't buy it for the same reason they didn't buy the Wii- it's casual.

 

[|RK|]

Please stop comparing Natal to the Eye Toy. Please. That's like comparing Six Axis to a Wii Remote with Motion Plus.

And Milo was tested. He could understand many things. Some things he couldn't understand, yes, but otherwise, it's very real. Stop being skeptical, HC.

 

[Scott!]

I think we need to see serious games implementing Natal and the wands before we can really judge which is the best. But I don't really think they're going to knock the Wii down. In terms of the casual market, the Wii has got it down. They've got the wide recognition and the games people want, like Wii Sports and Mario Kart. I don't think Nintendo's going to lose a lot of that business at all.

In terms of the hardcore crowd, they need to see results. Natal and the wands are untested. Both seem to have potential, but until they show what they can do in a serious gaming context, no one's going to get them.

Personally, I don't see how Natal can really work for something like an FPS. Miming a steering wheel seems tedious enough; guns seem a bit silly. Plus there won't be the precision accuracy a controller provides. Call me old-fashioned, but despite MS's best efforts, I don't think controllers are going anywhere. Then again, Natal at least doesn't seem to be orienting itself towards that. MS seems more intent on creating a system for everything, and Natal is a part of that. It's not just about the games for them. They've got things like Netflix, Last.fm, and Facebook on the xbox. Clearly, they want an all-around experience that Natal will only supplement, assuming it works well.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

I think we need to see serious games implementing Natal and the wands before we can really judge which is the best. But I don't really think they're going to knock the Wii down. In terms of the casual market, the Wii has got it down. They've got the wide recognition and the games people want, like Wii Sports and Mario Kart. I don't think Nintendo's going to lose a lot of that business at all.

In terms of the hardcore crowd, they need to see results. Natal and the wands are untested. Both seem to have potential, but until they show what they can do in a serious gaming context, no one's going to get them.

Personally, I don't see how Natal can really work for something like an FPS. Miming a steering wheel seems tedious enough; guns seem a bit silly. Plus there won't be the precision accuracy a controller provides. Call me old-fashioned, but despite MS's best efforts, I don't think controllers are going anywhere. Then again, Natal at least doesn't seem to be orienting itself towards that. MS seems more intent on creating a system for everything, and Natal is a part of that. It's not just about the games for them. They've got things like Netflix, Last.fm, and Facebook on the xbox. Clearly, they want an all-around experience that Natal will only supplement, assuming it works well.

Ah, but that assumes people care about an all-in-one experience.

I can't explain it as it strikes me as odd myself, but I don't want to use the Xbox 360 for everything. I want it to be a gaming platform first and formost, and I will use my computer for facebook and my DVD player for movies. although it might just be that my laptop is the best platform for facebook and my DVD player is quiter than my Xbox 360.

Although I do admit the wii weather channel is simply the best way to get a weather forcast. It tells you the weather without even requiring you to enter the channel - the fastest way to get the weather of pretty much any device I can think of.

Please stop comparing Natal to the Eye Toy. Please. That's like comparing Six Axis to a Wii Remote with Motion Plus.

Is there a reason you do not believe the comparison between eye toy and Natal is valid?

You CAN NOT forget time in your consideration. The Wii mote was always superior to the six axis in the reguard of motion controls, and they came out at the same time, thus your comparison is invalid. The Eye Toy was probably posed as a revolution in gaming, a hands-free way of interacting with the console that broke down the barrier of controller and player. The only really difference is that the eye toy was released in 2003, and the Natal technology will be seven years more advanced when it is released. The biggest difference is that eventually, Sony recognized the limitations of hands-free gaming, and created a controller to rectify the problems, thus the Sony demonstration we saw at E3 this year.

You MUST remember how innovative the devices were FOR THEIR TIME when trying to make accurate comparisons so as to correctly predict future events.

Even more interesting though is that Microsoft's plan to extend the hardware's lifecycle with peripherals is identical to a plan Nintendo rejected to extend the gamecube's life cycle with peripherals.

 

[BlublacMH]

I feel that Natal is MS trying to steal some of the casual market. And it will probably work...next gen. Its too late in the gen to introduce an entirely different way to play, for both developers and gamers. Even if they introduce the same controllers next gen, unless they are a pack-in very few people will buy it. Natal doesnt seem like that good of an idea to me in that aspect. If it does become standard, it will be extremely difficult to play with normal (non minigame or party) games because of the absence of a controller. The Sony wands however, could be big competition because they are almost a carbon copy of the Wiimote with WM+ attached. They will work with both core and casual games, and because they are so much like the Wiimote, alot of developers will already know how to program for them.

 

[Mic_128]

Please stop comparing Natal to the Eye Toy. Please. That's like comparing Six Axis to a Wii Remote with Motion Plus.

Uhh....what? How is comparing a product that was made with tilt in attempt to try and include last minute motion compared to a full 1:1 Wiimote the same as Eyetoy to Natal? At best you screwed up and put them the wrong way around, at worst it's just a horrible comaprason. sixaxis and Wiimotes were never the same, eyetoy and Natal are very much similar.

 

[Firus]

I'm pretty pessimistic, but I'm just going to say we should wait until we see more to say much about Natal. My first reaction was definitely that Natal seems like a slightly more sophisticated Eye Toy, but it's still altogether possible that somehow it will end up decent. I'm not really trying to get into the argument here as I have nothing to argue WITH, but that's just my take on this.

The only thing so far that interests me if Natal is good enough, though, is the prospect of a Mirror's Edge sequel using that technology. I love the original, and a sequel where you're actually running and jumping and everything yourself...that could be amazing.
Hopefully if they did make a sequel and use Natal, they'd also have an option to use traditional controls just in case something didn't work out.

But then again, I'm weird, and am one of the few people who really liked Mirror's Edge.

 

[Cashed]

Uhh....what? How is comparing a product that was made with tilt in attempt to try and include last minute motion compared to a full 1:1 Wiimote the same as Eyetoy to Natal? At best you screwed up and put them the wrong way around, at worst it's just a horrible comaprason. sixaxis and Wiimotes were never the same, eyetoy and Natal are very much similar.

So lemme get this straight:
WiiMotion Plus and Six Axis aren't similar, despite them both being motion detecting. Yet Natal's full 3D movement tracking is similar to the Eye Toy's "something moved" detection.

What a world you live in.

Natal is not similar to the Eye Toy.

when they had game journalists testing Milo there was a guy on the computer that was running Milo, so it's posible that they were "filling the gaps" so to speak.

There are always devs in the room when something is shown behind closed doors. There wasn't anybody "running Milo". Milo was running off of a 360 dev kit using the Natal prototype.

 

[DivineBlade]

One thing I come to notice with Xbox fanatics is their biased opinions. I'm not saying I hate the Xbox, just more towards the fan base. For example, when the Wii introduced innovative wireless motion based play the Xbox fans kept criticizing it. They trolled most Nintendo fans saying "This is way to complicated to play video games" or "I doubt Nintendo will advance with this, personally I would hate it if Xbox went in this direction." Now what I been hearing is "Xbox has Nintendo already beat" and "Xbox is way better with new innovative technology and will own the markets." Of course these phrases aren't word to word but they all share the basic idea on their feelings.

To me this ignorant, biased and hypocritical.

Aside from this, Xbox is heavy on FPS, applying this to Natal is almost hard to imagine and between you and me the fan base won't assimilate to a new way of playing shooters.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

So lemme get this straight:
WiiMotion Plus and Six Axis aren't similar, despite them both being motion detecting. Yet Natal's full 3D movement tracking is similar to the Eye Toy's "something moved" detection.

What a world you live in.

Natal is not similar to the Eye Toy.

The Wii-mote prior to motion plus came out at the same time as the six-axis. It was always a better motion sensing controller. Every attempt to use the Six Axis's tilt controls has been criticized, and tilt is not what the Six Axis was about. However, the wii-mote is about motion/IR/tilt controls, which is something we have been reminded of, often painfully, with every single Wii release making use of at least one wii-mote imput unavailable on any other system's control scheme.

Natal, however, is as much an advanced eye-toy as the DSi is a fancy DS. Sure the DSi has a couple of nice features such as a camera and internal storage that a normal DS doesn't have, but it's still a Nintendo DS.

You MUST remember when these devices came out if you want to assess them fairly.

Although if you want to insist on this, tell me, outside of the advanced made to the technology, how is Natal different from the eye toy? To me they both look like hardware additions too late into their respective console's life cycles to make a difference or be significant, both of which will be introduced with minigame compilations.

EDIT: To be honest, I can't fathom how Natal could be even considered something other than an upgraded eyetoy though, as to me the relationship is so blatantly obvious that I almost lack the mental capacity to change my mind. I can't tell myself a yellow apple is not an apple because apples are red, and likewise I can't tell myself Natal isn't an upgraded eyetoy because Natal is more advanced.

That isn't meant to be critical, rather, I am pointing out my own inability to understand the other side no matter how hard I attempt to do so. Think of it as a personal shortcoming, if it helps.

 

[DivineBlade]

So lemme get this straight:
WiiMotion Plus and Six Axis aren't similar, despite them both being motion detecting. Yet Natal's full 3D movement tracking is similar to the Eye Toy's "something moved" detection.

What a world you live in..

The WiiMotion plus isn't similar to the Sixaxis controller, the Wii Remote is. The WiiMotion Plus is far too advanced for the Sixaxis controller. The motion control controls motion in so many different dimensions that we can't even begin to explain. I'd like to see Playstation dare to compare with this.

Although, there's possiblilities they might make a USB plugin to compensate for this or (playing devil's advocate) make a new controller all together a la Sixaxis 2.

But don't get me wrong, I see what you mean by it being the same thing. Per se they are the same thing, but one is a controller and the other is an accessory.

Natal is not similar to the Eye Toy.

Natal is sorta similar to the Eye Toy but almost barely. Natal and Eye Toy could sense motion but Natal is way more advanced than that.

 

[Scott!]

Yikes. The debate here is whether Natal is like the eye-toy? Both sides are right. First off, Natal is a much-upgraded eye-toy. It detects motion like the eye-toy does. But it is also a lot more, to the point where their purposes are different. First off, its detection seems to be much better than the eye-toy's. Plus, the face and voice recognition are serious add-ons. Then there's Milo, who might be amazing, though I am a bit cynical. I think that, with repeated use, he'll become a lot less realistic once he starts repeating, and then the image is broken.

I have to agree with something said above in that I think the Magic Wands of Sony have more potential in the short term. They are more like wiimotes, and are holdable. I've said it before, I just can't imagine serious games without controllers. The first thing I thought when I saw the Natal driving game without a steering wheel or anything was that it looked awkward to hold your hands out without anything to hold.

 

[DivineBlade]

Quick question about the Milo

1. is it a program all its own ?

2. Do you think this will apply to future Xbox Natal interactics?

 

[Mini Mic]

Natal is not similar to the Eye Toy.

Natal is a camera used for games. Eye Toy is a camera used for games. They are the same basic thing it's just that Natal is more advanced.

 

[Darkslash]

At this point of time, the argument is worthless. Introducing a new controller this late in this generation too me is a bad idea, especially that we all know the Wii won the console race, despite what we want to think.

Next generation, its any one's game. Nintendo's next console claims to have HD. The question is, are the next Microsoft and Sony consoles ready to take on motion controlled gaming?

Personally I think nintendo will yet again take advantage of this and have more support with traditional control over Motion Control. Trying to convert the casual masses into the hardcore masses.

Hopefully the Wii audience is smart enough to know that MS and Sony are making a effort to try to keep up with Wii.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

At this point of time, the argument is worthless. Introducing a new controller this late in this generation too me is a bad idea, especially that we all know the Wii won the console race, despite what we want to think.

Next generation, its any one's game. Nintendo's next console claims to have HD. The question is, are the next Microsoft and Sony consoles ready to take on motion controlled gaming?

Personally I think nintendo will yet again take advantage of this and have more support with traditional control over Motion Control. Trying to convert the casual masses into the hardcore masses.

Hopefully the Wii audience is smart enough to know that MS and Sony are making a effort to try to keep up with Wii.

I'm not sure what you are arguing.

But if you are hoping that Microsoft and Sony will win the next generation (which hypothetically begins in 2015), then you'll have to tell me how their buisness model and approach to gaming will be radically changed so as to make the downscale market that only the wii currently attracts want to buy their product over a wii. As for trying to keep up with the wii,

Do or do not... there is no try.

 

[Bowser King]

You MUST remember how innovative the devices were FOR THEIR TIME when trying to make accurate comparisons so as to correctly predict future events.

What?

That's like saying the wiimote is a fancy duck hunt gun because that was innovative for it's time..

-Bowser King

 

[The Halloween Captain]

What?

That's like saying the wiimote is a fancy duck hunt gun because that was innovative for it's time..

-Bowser King

Well, actually, The wii-mote can better be compared to the NES controller which revolutionized gaming through the use of a D-pad and was also packed in with the console.

I don't know much about the duck hunt gun, but it wouldn't be directly comparable because the gun was not packed in with every system. Consumers who bought a NES can choose whether or not to buy a Duck Hunt gun. However, everyone who buys a wii must also buy a wii-mote with their system. Thus, the effect that the two devices have on the market are not going to be the same.

 

[Crimson King]

I notice no one mentioned the PS3 Eye, which had a mic built in for voice commands (never used or used sparingly), can detect multiple people and action, etc. It was still only 2D, but it's a better comparison than the EyeToy.

As I stated before, I hate motion controls. The forced innovation is so constricting and leaves most games with so little to work with. Most games that I have played that were strictly Wiimote based were really shallow games that didn't provide a great experience. Take Galaxy. It was a fun game, but I hated how easy it was in terms of being unable to actually lose all your lives. By the time I hit less than 5, I'd get a letter giving me more. With this in mind, what is my incentive to not actually strategize and just run into things hoping something works?

On the SixAxis: I am so glad it's not 1:1 because it would make games horrible. The few instances it is used are barely noticeable, and, usually, I can turn them off. If all next generation consoles use motion control like the Wii did, I won't be buying any consoles until it's bargain priced.

 

[Darkslash]

But if you are hoping that Microsoft and Sony will win the next generation (which hypothetically begins in 2015), then you'll have to tell me how their buisness model and approach to gaming will be radically changed so as to make the downscale market that only the wii currently attracts want to buy their product over a wii. As for trying to keep up with the wii,

What I was trying to say is that because all 3 companies have motion controlled type controllers now, next gen is pretty much now who will spend more development on classic no Motion control gaming.

Most games that I have played that were strictly Wiimote based were really shallow games that didn't provide a great experience. Take Galaxy. It was a fun game, but I hated how easy it was in terms of being unable to actually lose all your lives. By the time I hit less than 5, I'd get a letter giving me more. With this in mind, what is my incentive to not actually strategize and just run into things hoping something works?

Wouldn't difficulty be the problem of the game and not the controls?

And if we all havn't figured it out, the Wiimote is the Powerglove, Duck hunt gun and NES controller mixed into a rectangular monster. Which is kinda coincidental seeing how Nintendo is enjoying NES success.

 

[Crimson King]

Wouldn't difficulty be the problem of the game and not the controls?

And if we all havn't figured it out, the Wiimote is the Powerglove, Duck hunt gun and NES controller mixed into a rectangular monster. Which is kinda coincidental seeing how Nintendo is enjoying NES success.

Not quite. Difficulty can be in the control scheme too. If the game requires you to do a bunch of puzzles that utilize a tough control scheme, then it will push away the casual market. Nintendo Wii, being a shell of Nintendo, cannot let that happened and had to make the game ridiculously easy on top of that. Once you get the hang of the controls, which save for a few puzzles was pretty quick, the game becomes a cakewalk with just subtle mistakes being the only place for error. When you are given extra lives freely, the net protecting you from failing is right under the bar so there is no real difficulty in the game overall; you just keep doing it until you don't die.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

What I was trying to say is that because all 3 companies have motion controlled type controllers now, next gen is pretty much now who will spend more development on classic no Motion control gaming.

No.

I can't explain it, but every generation of consoles has always been dominated by the company which uses the least powerful hardware. It has happened with such reliability, that I am almost absolutely sure that in spite of convention, it is actually the least powerful system that will always win the console wars, both this generation and next.

Actually, the problem with the current generation is that for the most part everything but the wii is still considered a next gen system. We don't need hardware that comes out before it's time, we need current gen hardware.

 

[Red Exodus]

No.

I can't explain it, but every generation of consoles has always been dominated by the company which uses the least powerful hardware. It has happened with such reliability, that I am almost absolutely sure that in spite of convention, it is actually the least powerful system that will always win the console wars, both this generation and next.

Actually, the problem with the current generation is that for the most part everything but the wii is still considered a next gen system. We don't need hardware that comes out before it's time, we need current gen hardware.

Last time I checked the games made the consoles, not the hardware or the sales or the controls. The relation between the 'weakest' console and the 'best' [however that is defined, I assume we're talking sales unfortunately] of the generation is purely coincidental, otherwise we'd be seeing companies fight to put the weakest hardware on the market.

Personally I don't care for Wii motion plus, Natal or the PS3 eye, it's a lose-lose-lose, there will just be a flood of gimmicky games trying their hardest to make the whole game about the new hardware and very few [if any] games that make the new hardware work for them.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

Last time I checked the games made the consoles, not the hardware or the sales or the controls. The relation between the 'weakest' console and the 'best' [however that is defined, I assume we're talking sales unfortunately] of the generation is purely coincidental, otherwise we'd be seeing companies fight to put the weakest hardware on the market.

Personally I don't care for Wii motion plus, Natal or the PS3 eye, it's a lose-lose-lose, there will just be a flood of gimmicky games trying their hardest to make the whole game about the new hardware and very few [if any] games that make the new hardware work for them.

Do you really think it's a coincidence that for seven consecutive generations of consoles, the weakest hardware has always had the best sales? From a purely mathmatical standpoint, the odds of that happening are too low for coincidence to be a feasible explanation. It is the single most consistent way for determining which console will have the best sales, after all.

It's actually a paradox that the type of person who is into software can't fathom; a tech person would never deliberately make their hardware the weakest, because it contradicts a basic and intuitive understanding that powerful hardware is good thing. Heck, I don't even understand it. I would guess it is because a non-tech person doesn't demand as much from the hardware as a tech person, and the software for a weaker system has to be generally better in all other aspects than tech than the software for a more powerful system, thus requiring creativity for survival. But I could be completely wrong; all we know is weak hardware = big sales.

The one hope I do have for motion plus is that it is intended specifically for more advanced gameplay - minigame compilations don't need it, low-end (casual) developers don't need it, only publishers that need it to make truely good controls really want it all that badly. This cannot be said for the other two devices.

 

[DivineBlade]

Do you really think it's a coincidence that for seven consecutive generations of consoles, the weakest hardware has always had the best sales? From a purely mathmatical standpoint, the odds of that happening are too low for coincidence to be a feasible explanation. It is the single most consistent way for determining which console will have the best sales, after all.

It's actually a paradox that the type of person who is into software can't fathom; a tech person would never deliberately make their hardware the weakest, because it contradicts a basic and intuitive understanding that powerful hardware is good thing. Heck, I don't even understand it. I would guess it is because a non-tech person doesn't demand as much from the hardware as a tech person, and the software for a weaker system has to be generally better in all other aspects than tech than the software for a more powerful system, thus requiring creativity for survival. But I could be completely wrong; all we know is weak hardware = big sales.

Weakest doesn't = high sales. What everyone is forgetting about is the affordability of the cheaper console as well as the principle of supply & demand. It not coincidental like you say. What matters is how they play the game called marketing.

The issue involving a tech person and a non tech could be understood because the non tech are way too ignorant to understand what to look for in a console. It pretty much measures up to the presentation. And whether we like that or not, Nintendo does that pretty darn well. What companies need to think about as their forte is how to interest the consumer, provide user friendly mechanics and present with an imaginative new direction.

BTW, the whole point of the thread is to discuss the Natal and its potential to be a threat to Nintendo's motion control market. If you wish to incorporate some discussion involving the PS3 or eye toy that's perfectly fine, but I'm just reminding everyone to stick to the thread.