More elements like Lucario's Aura

[Isprayaxe]

What do you guys think of more characters with attributes similar to Marth's sword tip or Lucario's Aura. For example one could be a character starts out strong and as he takes more hits each one makes him a bit weaker until death.

 

[FalKoopa]

I won.t support the idea of more characters having these gimmicks. If they are present, they should be limited to 2-3 characters at most.
They should make one like P:M Lucario, where he gets rewarded for fighting well, not for taking damage.

 

[Holder of the Heel]

I'd welcome the gimmicks because they simply mean making a character more interesting in my eyes. The only issue with doing that is if they are added to current characters they might upset people, which would mean they'd have to be small little accents to the character and nothing more (and even that might still bother some people).

 

[Wonks]

I've long considered this in the next iteration, and Doshin the Giant immediately came to mind.
He could start of normal-sized and weak, but with more damage taken he'd grow larger and stronger. (Final Smash would be his Devil Doshin personality, but that's besides the point.)

 

[JOE!]

I won.t support the idea of more characters having these gimmicks. If they are present, they should be limited to 2-3 characters at most.
They should make one like P:M Lucario, where he gets rewarded for fighting well, not for taking damage.

Why not? Lucario's vBrawl mechanic was meh sure, but why not have any characters with built-in mechanics?

 

[FalKoopa]

Lucario's vBrawl mechanic was meh sure.

That's the basic reason for my stance. If they come up with a better mechanic, then I'll support them, sure, but for the time being, I don't want these gimmicks.

 

[lordvaati]

most likely the new Pokemon will have an ability like that, since the last 2 did(Pichu in Melee & Lucario in Brawl.)

someone came up with an interesting idea with Little Mac where a Sweetspotted Smash attack could give him Stars to power up his neutral B, so that could be pretty cool too.

 

[Hypercat-Z]

I personally like the idea of characters having hving their unique gimmick. Not sure thought if EVERY character should have one. Thought, they might be not limited to the classic and the VS mode, but even to the story mode, or EXPECIALLY to the story mode, because of the storyplot, like for example R.O.B. being the only one char able to pass through certain stages because he is inorganic.

 

[Diddy Kong]

If Diddy throws 100 bananas he'll get an extra life.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I believe the P:M team had a pretty good idea about the mechanic they gave with Ivysaur and Lucario. They essentially have a meter in a way. Its a meter you cannot really tell how far along its gone, but its one nonetheless. You have access to special moves after hitting someone long enough and you are only granted them a few times a match.

I wouldn't mind having more of those mechanics in the next one.

 

[BluePikmin11]

Mario: You shrink a cm. each time you get hit.

 

[Strong Badam]

Character-specific mechanics are cool. Lucario's vBrawl Aura isn't.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Character-specific mechanics are cool. Lucario's vBrawl Aura isn't.

*Bro fist*

 

[Gene]

If Link loses a stock he'll return back to the stage and use a bottled fairy to get back his stock.

 

[Isprayaxe]

If Diddy throws 100 bananas he'll get an extra life.

I loled at this ^

 

[Carolus Rex]

If Bowser falls in Norfair's lava and dies he becomes Dry Bowser.

Yoshi can swallow shells and throw them.

Pikachu and Jigglypuff can evolve into Raichu and Wigglytuff if they find their respective stones.

If Yoshimitsu is in, he loses 1% every time he uses his shield to escape an attack (maybe that's too much though).

Mario can lose his hat and get weaker for some reason I can't think of.

R.O.B. needs to recharge changing batteries (with a new special I guess) every 5/6 minutes or he gets stuck until he dies.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Samus can run out of missiles. Link can run out of bombs and arrows.

(Seriously wouldn't be bad if they mad buff these characters)

 

[BluePikmin11]

When you pick up a garlic looking food item as Wario, your power multiplies 2x.
Characters from RPGs (like Ness and Pikachu) have a PP meter. That means no spamming PK Fire.

 

[Jack Kieser]

Hey, I like Aura as it is. It makes Lucario matches more hype, and it's an interesting inversion of some of Smash's mechanics. Yes, it can result in benefits for players who purposefully do badly; so what? It also rewards amazing DI and survivability. Plus, it's genuinely compelling to fight against a Lucario at 150%. I think Aura gets too much hate.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Hey, I like Aura as it is. It makes Lucario matches more hype, and it's an interesting inversion of some of Smash's mechanics. Yes, it can result in benefits for players who purposefully do badly; so what? It also rewards amazing DI and survivability. Plus, it's genuinely compelling to fight against a Lucario at 150%. I think Aura gets too much hate.

This x 10char

 

[volbound1700]

What is Marth's sword tip? Is there something special about Marth?

 

[FalKoopa]

Maybe the sweetspot on the tip. But that isn't exactly a mechanic.

 

[Isprayaxe]

What is Marth's sword tip? Is there something special about Marth?

When you hit with the tip of the sword it does a bit more damage, just small things like that.

 

[Strong Badam]

Hey, I like Aura as it is. It makes Lucario matches more hype, and it's an interesting inversion of some of Smash's mechanics. Yes, it can result in benefits for players who purposefully do badly; so what? It also rewards amazing DI and survivability. Plus, it's genuinely compelling to fight against a Lucario at 150%. I think Aura gets too much hate.

comeback mechanics are basically only good for hype, and hype is perhaps one of the worst reasons to introduce a mechanic IMO. fighting games are doing this way too much these days. x-factor in marvel, revenge meter in street fighter... it's really silly. is there a problem with being in an advantageous situation because you outplayed your opponent? no. i think if you need a comeback mechanic to make your game hype enough, you should probably go back to the drawing board on the game as a whole.
look at this comeback in mvc2. there's no mechanic in that game that allows justin wong to make this comeback specifically because he's behind, and yet he still does it and it's incredibly hype. he makes the comeback because of a few reasons:
1. he starts off with a lot of meter, which he's gained over the course of the match.
2. he outplays his opponent in numerous scenarios
3. the game's mechanics reward justin significantly for outplaying his opponent in those scenarios. each time he hits his opponent, he inflicts at least 1/3rd of the victim character's HP.

anyway the problem with lucario's aura isn't that it rewards players who purposefully do badly. lucario's optimal play almost never includes taking damage on purpose (except to prevent like, falco chaingrabs because of how absolutely awesome stale moves function in brawl). the problem is, the character is better at higher percents than he is at lower percents. lucario's aura changes the nature of what a "lead" entails, and lucario's effectiveness is very artificial because of it. additionally, lucario is not rewarded for AVOIDING getting hit the same way that other characters are because of how he's rewarded FOR getting hit. conversely, he's rewarded for having good DI and surviving a long time in a way that's more than just "you aren't dead" like with the rest of the cast. this skews the skillset lucario players are tested under to survivability than other things like general spacing to avoid getting hit and things of that nature.

 

[Holder of the Heel]

I don't understand what's the big deal. It's just an accent to the character, I feel like that's probably what they should be if anything.

 

[BluePikmin11]

Big and heavy characters trip more likely.
"The bigger they are, the harder they fall."

 

[Vkrm]

Was there any reason for lucario's aura to function that way? Are they referencing some sort of special ability he had in Pokemon?

 

[peeup]

Was there any reason for lucario's aura to function that way? Are they referencing some sort of special ability he had in Pokemon?

I believe if he gets flinched, his speed increases. And they kinda took creative liberties with that. But I really like his aura mechanic.

As far as giving unique mechanics to other characters, I highly, highly endorse that. Make Your Move is littered with ingenious and wicked fun mechanics/gimmicks that would make for some really fun characters. There isn't a whole lot more the Smash team can do with movesets if they want to be unique unless they give special mechanics to more characters.

 

[Holder of the Heel]

Doesn't Lucario see the auras of things around it? Not sure how that translates to what it is in Smash, but I think I remember that from the movie.

 

[Cool Daddy Booty Funk]

Mechanics like Marth's sweet spot I like. It really shows when someone knows how to play as him because they will attack at the perfect range to maximize damage.

I'm not a fan of Lucario's mechanics, Strong Bad sums it up nicely.


Some of the suggestions at the top of this page have been terrible as well. Not trying to sound like a jerk, but these mechanics should be something available all of the time so skilled players could work their gameplay around them. They should not just be situational gimmicks. As for heavy characters tripping more, that doesn't make sense. Maybe if they were clumsy or uncoordinated, yeah tripping would be great. But not because they are heavy. Heavy characters should have a damage resilience technique if anything. For example if an attack only does so much damage or has so much knockback heavy characters would not flinch. At least it could help buff Bowser and Ganondorf.

I would not mind seeing more techniques added to the game. I feel both Samus and Link have the ability to really complicate and improve their arsenal due to the number of weapons they have. It might make them harder to play, but I'm sure they would be a lot of people that would enjoy how much more involved those characters would be.

 

[JOE!]

I believe if he gets flinched, his speed increases. And they kinda took creative liberties with that. But I really like his aura mechanic.

As far as giving unique mechanics to other characters, I highly, highly endorse that. Make Your Move is littered with ingenious and wicked fun mechanics/gimmicks that would make for some really fun characters. There isn't a whole lot more the Smash team can do with movesets if they want to be unique unless they give special mechanics to more characters.

You rang?

 

[Bowserlick]

Mechanics that add flavor should be added if the character needs a theme.

I came up with a similar Lucario movement during the Brawl character speculation. I found the character boring and thought he needed something to pop. Since aura was a big deal, I suggested his specials changing into more powerful versions when dealt a threshold of damage.

I believe heavy characters can be improved with stun resistance for weak attacks and greater resistance to stun and some knock back while running at full speed. (Such as Bowser running through Falco's lasers).

 

[Vintage Creep]

I like some of the ideas in this topic. Anyway I liked the idea behind the Aura, simply it was broken. Basically Lucario was useless unless he had at least 80% of damage.

 

[Anonymous777]

I like the idea of heavyweights being more stun resistant. Bowser running through Falco's lasers sounds good to me. At least hed give him a greater challenge and might even be a counter pick so we can see Bowser's at high level play.

 

[Jack Kieser]

comeback mechanics are basically only good for hype, and hype is perhaps one of the worst reasons to introduce a mechanic IMO. fighting games are doing this way too much these days. x-factor in marvel, revenge meter in street fighter... it's really silly. is there a problem with being in an advantageous situation because you outplayed your opponent? no. i think if you need a comeback mechanic to make your game hype enough, you should probably go back to the drawing board on the game as a whole.

I'm not going to comment on the overall quality of Brawl since I don't want to get into that. What I will say is that I think that Brawl is plenty hype, and that Lucario's Aura, as a singular mechanic, is in now way a sign that the Brawl team needed to go "back to the drawing board". Lucario minus Aura is a perfectly good character, and Aura is just an interesting subversion of Smash's general mechanics.

look at this comeback in mvc2. there's no mechanic in that game that allows justin wong to make this comeback specifically because he's behind, and yet he still does it and it's incredibly hype. he makes the comeback because of a few reasons:
1. he starts off with a lot of meter, which he's gained over the course of the match.
2. he outplays his opponent in numerous scenarios
3. the game's mechanics reward justin significantly for outplaying his opponent in those scenarios. each time he hits his opponent, he inflicts at least 1/3rd of the victim character's HP.

I've seen that clip before. That clip is a great clip and a horrible clip at the same time, and here's why: slippery slope (and I don't mean the argument). It's been well known in game design for a long time that slippery slope, or the tendency for a player to do exponentially worse with each mistake made, is bad design, or at least suboptimal design. Now, team based fighters have always had to combat this because slippery slope is a natural part of the mechanics (one less team member means less damage output, less options, etc., and each action taken away from the player makes not just comebacks but even basic play that much harder). This is the real reason, at the end of the day, why X-factor is such an effective mechanic in UMvC3; not only does X-factor in and of itself mitigate (but not eliminate, which is important here) the effects of slippery slope, but it's even proportional to how much the player needs it! We may quibble about the particulars of individual character balance, but X-factor, in and of itself, is a mechanic that adds LOTS of tactical depth for VERY little technical overhead cost.

Watch that linked match again, and this time think of what would have happened had that been anyone other than Wong playing (that Wong factor is notorious). Even in the case of many top level players, that would have been a non-hype, non-fun, totally uninteresting match; even the commentators say it after Storm dies ("Now we have a real match!"). Remember that, even though top level play is the culmination of a fighter's mechanics and design, it DOES have to cater to and be balanced around lower levels of play, as well. In a game like Mahvel, one misplaced assist call could place a player in a 1 v 3 situation, and that's a HEAVY cost for a simple assist call. Comeback mechanics help to mitigate those kind of extreme circumstances.

That's a lot of analysis that will come in handy in a second.

anyway the problem with lucario's aura isn't that it rewards players who purposefully do badly. lucario's optimal play almost never includes taking damage on purpose (except to prevent like, falco chaingrabs because of how absolutely awesome stale moves function in brawl). the problem is, the character is better at higher percents than he is at lower percents. lucario's aura changes the nature of what a "lead" entails, and lucario's effectiveness is very artificial because of it. additionally, lucario is not rewarded for AVOIDING getting hit the same way that other characters are because of how he's rewarded FOR getting hit. conversely, he's rewarded for having good DI and surviving a long time in a way that's more than just "you aren't dead" like with the rest of the cast. this skews the skillset lucario players are tested under to survivability than other things like general spacing to avoid getting hit and things of that nature.

And, even though all of the mechanical observations you've made are correct, all of your judgments are off base. First of all, you're entirely correct that Aura changes the definition of a lead in Brawl... which is the point. That's why it's a mechanical subversion, and that's why it's compelling; fighting Lucario is markedly different that fighting any other character for this reason, and that's a good thing. Your analysis that Lucario is not rewarded for avoiding hits equitably is off, as well, because he IS rewarded in exactly the same way that other characters are (that is to say, he's not punished for avoiding attacks). Where you've missed the mark is that Aura isn't an alteration of existing reward structures in relation to whiffed attacks; he simply has an additional reward structure in place for getting hit that other characters don't have.

Of course, I don't see this as a bad thing because Lucario's Aura is designed to be a subversive mechanic, one that turns established Smash mechanics on their head, and in that regard, it performs wonderfully. Lucario is a wonderful beginners character in Brawl because he's a bit slower, has low-complexity strings and combos, and Aura lessens the blow of taking damage, thus mitigating potential slippery slope. Lucario is an equalizing character, one that excels in lower levels of play and plateaus out at high level, which is exactly what you'd want from a character with a mechanic like Aura; I'd argue that Lucario is actually the most well balanced / designed character in Brawl for this reason.

Unlike your assessment, I don't think that the altered skillset testing that is done to Lucario mains through the Aura mechanic is any more significant or worse, normatively, than, for instance, the fact that Diddy mains are more harshly tested in terms of item control, or Mario mains in terms of wall jumping; different is not bad. In addition, the ways in which Aura change the dynamic between players at high damage levels in intrinsically compelling; the same way that X-factor prevents a player in the lead from resting during a match (or the same way Wong factor should have prevented his opponent from resting in the above linked video), Aura allows for a dynamism in matches that other characters just can't match.

Aura is not a bad mechanic. It's not even badly implemented. It's different, but that's a good thing in a fighter like Smash, one that relies on subverting fighting tropes in order to progress the genre in interesting ways.

 

[El Duderino]

I wouldn't exactly call fighting Lucario 'markedly different'. The strategy is the same; low % = you beat him up, high % = you still go for the kill. On the flip side, playing as Lucario at a high % means you are still just trying to land hits before inevitably loosing a stock.

Guess you could say I'm pretty indifferent when it comes to his Aura, largely because I don't find it adds anything whatsoever to his strategy. It just creates unnecessary complications Lucario players have to work around. I suppose you could argue Aura does give Lucario a little variety, but there are better ways to go about doing that.

 

[Hokori]

Having more characters with their own special traits would be nice playing around casually..I wonder how it would turn out competitively though. It makes me think of PT and the stamina feature. When Brawl first came out, I went Great Ape over being able to use 3 characters in 1, but I hate having to switch out the Pokes when all I really wanted to do was use Squirtle

 

[Jack Kieser]

I wouldn't exactly call fighting Lucario 'markedly different'. The strategy is the same; low % = you beat him up, high % = you still go for the kill. On the flip side, playing as Lucario at a high % means you are still just trying to land hits before inevitably loosing a stock.

Guess you could say I'm pretty indifferent when it comes to his Aura, largely because I don't find it adds anything whatsoever to his strategy. It just creates unnecessary complications Lucario players have to work around. I suppose you could argue Aura does give Lucario a little variety, but there are better ways to go about doing that.

I'd definitely say that it depends on the level of character knowledge and adaptability Lucario's opponent has, too. For instance, I was playing a 2v2 with Toon Link against 2 Snakes in tournament a while back. I'm at ~130% IIRC, something really high, and WAY past Snake's kill zone. TL gets greedy, and the Snakes get him before I can save him. One of them goes in for the kill on me but slips up and I end up killing him. So now, it's 1v1, last stock, and each of us are in kill range. All game, this Snake had been super aggressive (as Snakes should be) but he realized that Aura gave me KB that could kill him from anywhere on the stage with one shot, whereas without it he'd still be in the clear. His entire strategy changed, the whole feel of the match shifted, because I had Aura and he knew what that meant; were it TL in my place, or me without Aura, he would have played the way he always had. That match was markedly different in the last minute or two because of his knowledge of Aura (and respect for it).

Not everyone cares about Aura. Those people usually get killed out of nowhere from a freak AS or force palm.

Also, there's a "better" way to do everything. That's not saying too much.

 

[El Duderino]

I'm not saying it cannot come into play, just that typically during the course of a match it has a marginal impact on the metagame at best.

To StrongBad's credit, P:M's Lucario qualities are a lot more, for lack of a better word, meaningful. So yeah, I do think there is room for more successful types of character specific traits to employ.

 

[Jack Kieser]

Over the entire metagame? Yeah, Aura has a negligible effect, sure. That's also the point, though; Aura only really comes into play in those odd situations where Lucario's in a crazy comeback position (or at the end of his stock, depending on circumstances), just like how X-factor only really matters when one of the players messes up and has to pop it early to save a character or to make sure a character is dead (a lot of high-level play where few mistakes are made sees both sides in X-factor at the same time). That's not a bug; that's a feature.

I've played P:M's Lucario and I see what they were trying to do with it. Without the meter on the screen, it's kind of unwieldy, in my opinion; sure, after a ton of practice you can get a feel for it, but that's a higher tech floor than vanilla Aura has. Personally, excusing the lack of meter that's a technical limitation that's not P:M's team's fault, I think they're just apples and oranges and that directly comparing a primarily defensive mechanic to a primarily offensive one misses the point of both of them.

That being said, I think both vanilla and P:M aura show that odd-man-out mechanics DO have their place in Smash, which is what I think the OP really wants to see, anyway. The particular implementations are not as important as character variety, and I think both Aura's easily show that Smash's core design philosophies allow for characters that have subversive mechanics that other characters don't share.

...I just don't want vanilla Aura getting **** on too much, since it seems a lot of the hate against it comes from people thinking it's not traditional enough or something, which I never thought was a good reason to dislike a mechanic. People may not personally like it or something, but mechanically it's a sound concept (and it is, as I think I've shown, actually soundly implemented) that I think get's too much hate from people who already don't like Brawl.