Misconception about "Character slots"?

[Shariq]

I have heard lately on here, that there is no such thing as a character taking up or wasting a slot. As in Sakurai doesn't sit there and go "who should I put in, Wario or Mewtwo? WELP, I pick Wario, bye bye Mewtwo". Many people complain about this, where if a character they don't like makes it in, then that character is taking up a "slot" from another character that is apparently more deserving. I am myself a bit confused so can someone clarify?

 

[PKBeam]

Well if, say, Lucina, takes a slot (because yes, there is such a thing), then that means there's one less character to add. One could argue that someone like Chrom could use that slot better (better rep the series and bring new things in), so you could say Lucina may have been a "wasted" slot.

 

[NitrusVirus]

PKBeam could not have said it better. To further the point, say that Zelda only gets 5 slots and the final slot goes to Toon Link thats thought as a wasted slot that could have been used for a "better" character.

 

[Ryuutakeshi]

Better is ultimately subjective. Every character has their fans, even Wii Fit Trainer or the potential Chorus Men. Yeah, there's a limit to how many characters there are going to be and we just need to accept that some of the characters selected won't be our favorites. It happens. But I don't think slots are "wasted" or "misused". Besides, what happens if that "wasteful" character becomes a Top Tier God?

 

[Oracle_Summon]

Well if, say, Lucina, takes a slot (because yes, there is such a thing), then that means there's one less character to add. One could argue that someone like Chrom could use that slot better (better rep the series and bring new things in), so you could say Lucina may have been a "wasted" slot.

Uhh......Chrom was mainly Robin's Yes Man and was not as important to the plot as Robin and Lucina was.

Chrom was the lack luster person in the group in terms to importance of the game and driving the plot.

 

[ZenJestr]

I think it has less to do with slots and more to do with how much effort each character requires

for example...Lucina doesn't really waste a slot that much considering the effort put in her was relatively minimal. However, the Mii Fighters could be argued as hogging 3 slots considering they have 3 very diverse movesets, which (in the developer's eyes) is akin to 3 completely different characters.

 

[PKBeam]

Better is ultimately subjective.

It's not. It seems subjective because in this instance determining the best char to add is almost impossible.
But things like "Is better than " Obviously yes.
In both cases there is no random variable that makes it subjective.

Every character has their fans, even Wii Fit Trainer or the potential Chorus Men. Yeah, there's a limit to how many characters there are going to be and we just need to accept that some of the characters selected won't be our favorites. It happens. But I don't think slots are "wasted" or "misused"

If Sakurai adds a piece of tissue as a newcomer then we'll see what everyone thinks.

Besides, what happens if that "wasteful" character becomes a Top Tier God?

You keep up with the competitive Brawl scene?
That doesn't change anything, if anything it makes us hate them more...

Uhh......Chrom was mainly Robin's Yes Man and was not as important to the plot as Robin and Lucina was.

Chrom was the lack luster person in the group in terms to importance of the game and driving the plot.

That's irrelevant to my point.

 

[Oracle_Summon]

That's irrelevant to my point.

Well if, say, Lucina, takes a slot (because yes, there is such a thing), then that means there's one less character to add. One could argue that someone like Chrom could use that slot better (better rep the series and bring new things in), so you could say Lucina may have been a "wasted" slot.

 

[RedCap-BlueSpikes]

Well if, say, Lucina, takes a slot (because yes, there is such a thing), then that means there's one less character to add. One could argue that someone like Chrom could use that slot better (better rep the series and bring new things in), so you could say Lucina may have been a "wasted" slot.

This isn't actually how things work. Developers don't work with a finite number of slots they can put on the Character Select Screen, they add them to the game when they need to. For example, Lucina was a last minute addition; she went from being an alternate costume for Marth, to a clone in a very short time (Probably less than a day or two). When they did that, they didn't just kick someone off the roster, they just added her own slot to the game.

 

[DonkaFjord]

I remember a few times Sakurai mentioned that in Melee he wanted to add King Dedede, but he thought the roster was lacking so he added the 6 clones to fill it out because it took the same amount of dev time. During this game's development he mentioned how adding a character is like multiplication, not addition because with each addition more work is put in (Kirby's hats, Added animations for special moves like G&W's ball or snakes grab.) I really do not think Lucina and the like too a spot from the roster, but filled one. If she was just an alt then I doubt we'd get another character added to the final roster to replace her 'slot.' This mostly applies to clones.

 

[Hong]

I'd assume only characters from the Pokemon Company or Intelligent Systems ever had a designated number of slots, given how they function in relation to Nintendo. If Fire Emblem had a slot, Lucina never took it. She just happened to be. I am sure they have some ballpark idea for how much new content they want to make, but it's not like they designed the UI of the game right-off the top and tried to fill in the blanks. That would be absurdity.

 

[PKBeam]

This isn't actually how things work. Developers don't work with a finite number of slots they can put on the Character Select Screen, they add them to the game when they need to. For example, Lucina was a last minute addition; she went from being an alternate costume for Marth, to a clone in a very short time (Probably less than a day or two). When they did that, they didn't just kick someone off the roster, they just added her own slot to the game.

Time constraints. DLC has not been confirmed so you cannot assume it's an option.

Well if, say, Lucina, takes a slot (because yes, there is such a thing), then that means there's one less character to add. One could argue that someone like Chrom could use that slot better (better rep the series and bring new things in), so you could say Lucina may have been a "wasted" slot.

You're missing my point.
It could have been Waluigi and Mario, or Toon Zelda and Link.

 

[QuickRat]

There is a limited number of characters. Suppose this number is 50, but maybe Sora is managing 65 potential characters. So if they put someone in, they are throwing someone out. If they wanted to put Palutena in, maybe that made Isaac (oh, hate his American name ) not to enter. Just an example. But if one of those characters is a clone which shares litterally "physic stats and techniques", maybe interesting characters like Balloon-Fighter or Black Shadow are taken out. In other words, cutting potentially interesting options to put a clone in makes people angry.

 

[PKBeam]

There is a limited number of characters.

Yes, you reminded me.
The Wii U disc has a limited filesize (~25GB). And a lot of that is devoted to coding, gameplay modes etc.
That's all I need to say.

 

[RedCap-BlueSpikes]

Time constraints. DLC has not been confirmed so you cannot assume it's an option.

You're missing my point.
It could have been Waluigi and Mario, or Toon Zelda and Link.

If they were already going through the effort to make Lucina a skin for Marth (Which has been confirmed by Sakurai), then it probably took them less than a day to change her up. I could do what they did with Lucina in less than a day.

We're talking about professionals here. They make the most of their time and disk space, and they plan out who they're adding to the game well in advance. No addition to this roster is taking any other characters' slot, because the roster was already finalized a year ago. I.E. If a character isn't in the game, it's because they weren't supposed to.

Not trying to be rude, just making sure my point is understood.

 

[Ryuutakeshi]

It's not. It seems subjective because in this instance determining the best char to add is almost impossible.
But things like "Is better than " Obviously yes.
In both cases there is no random variable that makes it subjective.

If Sakurai adds a piece of tissue as a newcomer then we'll see what everyone thinks.

You keep up with the competitive Brawl scene?
That doesn't change anything, if anything it makes us hate them more...

That's irrelevant to my point.

I think you may be misunderstanding what I mean by subjective. I don't mean mechanically or by what the tournament rankings say. I don't even think that's what a lot of people mean when they're talking about better characters. Yes, you are right. MK is better than Zelda in Brawl (this remains to be seen in Sm4sh), but that's based of the technical capabilities of the player. That's based on the structure of how the character operates. I'm talking about personal opinion, which is how I'm interpreting most everyone else's reactions as well.

I think in the case of the tissue though, jumping to hyperbole may be a bit extreme. I remember a lot of people didin't like ROB. I think there are still people that don't. But he did get his fans and there were people who enjoyed playing him. To them, that isn't a wasted slot. Obviously a piece of tissue is going to be universally loathed (unless, of course, said character is taken from an epic game about tissue. Which might be kinda interesting... I digress).

And in regards to your third comment, I'm not so convinced that just because a character is a top tier god they are automatically hated. For me personally, I don't care for Falco. I never did. Yet he continues to be a high tier character with a huge fanbase. Or, for another example, you're obviously making reference to Meta Knight. Yet he is still extremely popular and requested for both personal and mechanical reasons. Yes, I think a lot people want him to be better balanced, but I doubt few people want him gone altogether. That's more of what I'm referring to.

Hopefully this response has cleared up my statement a bit more in regards to what I mean by "better is subjective".

 

[Katy Parry]

Well if, say, Lucina, takes a slot (because yes, there is such a thing), then that means there's one less character to add. One could argue that someone like Chrom could use that slot better (better rep the series and bring new things in), so you could say Lucina may have been a "wasted" slot.

Not really. Sakurai has stated It was Chrom or Robin basically, and Chrom was just another sword wielder. Lucina was going to be an alternate costume for Marth, but then he decided she would make a decent character clone with minor changes, and more easy to use Marth.

Since it takes Sakurai the same development time to make one full on newcomer or 6 clone characters, you can't say Lucina may have wasted a slot.

You could say Lucina and 5 other clone characters could have wasted a slot. But hey, if by then we got characters like:

Lucina
Dixie Kong
Dr. Mario
Dasiy
Bowser Jr.
Waluigi

(I know most of that won't happen/some are ATs, etc. Just using them for example's sake)

etc, would you think it was a waste to say, only have Chrom?

"
That's irrelevant to my point.

Well if, say, Lucina, takes a slot (because yes, there is such a thing), then that means there's one less character to add. One could argue that someone like Chrom could use that slot better (better rep the series and bring new things in), so you could say Lucina may have been a "wasted" slot.
Click to expand..."

It's not irrelvant at all. You're saying one could argue that someone like Chrom could use that slot better, that one meaning you are arguing that he could use that slot better (better rep the series)

No. He does not "better rep" the series. Lucina drives the story much more than Chrom does. Chrom is another prince, which we already had Marth, and we already had Roy.

Lucina, even as a clone, is not a waste.
​

 

[DonkaFjord]

There is a limited number of characters. Suppose this number is 50, but maybe Sora is managing 65 potential characters. So if they put someone in, they are throwing someone out. If they wanted to put Palutena in, maybe that made Isaac (oh, hate his American name ) not to enter. Just an example. But if one of those characters is a clone which shares litterally "physic stats and techniques", maybe interesting characters like Balloon-Fighter or Black Shadow are taken out. In other words, cutting potentially interesting options to put a clone in makes people angry.

In melee it is stated Dr. Mario was added just because one of the devs wanted his music in the game and pichu because sakurai wanted to make a joke character. Sakurai mentiond Ganadorf was lucky he made it in Melee because Captain Falcon and he share similar body types. So I do not think Unique characters are trashed for clones except in the event of time constraints or to fill the roster. Remember 1 unique character = a handful of clones who can be luigified in future games.

 

[PKBeam]

If they were already going through the effort to make Lucina a skin for Marth (Which has been confirmed by Sakurai), then it probably took them less than a day to change her up. I could do what they did with Lucina in less than a day.

No-one could edit her model (a HIGH POLY model, mind you), her hitboxes and everything else in a working day.

We're talking about professionals here. They make the most of their time and plan out who they're adding to the game well in advance. No addition to this roster is taking any other characters' slot, because the roster was already finalized a year ago. If a character isn't in the game, it's because they weren't supposed to. Not trying to be rude, just making sure my point is understood.

If Pidgeotto was finalized last year and Jigglypuff was cut last year, that still doesn't change the fact that would've been a better rep today.

 

[Ryuutakeshi]

No-one could edit her model (a HIGH POLY model, mind you), her hitboxes and everything else in a working day.


If Pidgeotto was finalized last year and Jigglypuff was cut last year, that still doesn't change the fact that would've been a better rep today.

According to animators for Ubisoft, creating a character model (specifically a female model) takes only a day or two. It's the mechanics of the character and the animations that take time. The model is just the skin. And I think all you'd have to do is just size down the hitboxes at that point.

 

[PKBeam]

Not really. Sakurai has stated It was Chrom or Robin basically, and Chrom was just another sword wielder. Lucina was going to be an alternate costume for Marth, but then he decided she would make a decent character clone with minor changes, and more easy to use Marth.

Since it takes Sakurai the same development time to make one full on newcomer or 6 clone characters, you can't say Lucina may have wasted a slot.

You could say Lucina and 5 other clone characters could have wasted a slot. But hey, if by then we got characters like:

Lucina
Dixie Kong
Dr. Mario
Dasiy
Bowser Jr.
Waluigi

(I know most of that won't happen/some are ATs, etc. Just using them for example's sake)

etc, would you think it was a waste to say, only have Chrom?

" One could argue that someone like Chrom could use that slot better (better rep the series and bring new things in), so you could say Lucina may have been a "wasted" slot."

If that happened I'd say that the last four on that list wasted a slot because a semi-clone could've been added (or at least a rep that better fits that series).

 

[Ryuutakeshi]

If that happened I'd say that the last four on that list wasted a slot because a semi-clone could've been added (or at least a rep that better fits that series).

And this is a perfect example of what I mean by "better is subjective".

 

[DonkaFjord]

According to animators for Ubisoft, creating a character model (specifically a female model) takes only a day or two. It's the mechanics of the character and the animations that take time. The model is just the skin. And I think all you'd have to do is just size down the hitboxes at that point.

It depends on the game and how much of the assets are done. Smash has more animations per character than say A.C. (just picking an ubisoft game in comparison.)

EDIT: Also they tend to port animations over. Smash does that too for clones. so it depends on the character as well.

 

[Katy Parry]

If that happened I'd say that the last four on that list wasted a slot because a semi-clone could've been added (or at least a rep that better fits that series).

And this is a perfect example of what I mean by "better is subjective".

Agreed. All of the characters I listed are VERY notable characters. Your point is irrelevant because you stated better wasn't subjective, yet that's exactly how you are using the word in context.

 

[RedCap-BlueSpikes]

No-one could edit her model (a HIGH POLY model, mind you), her hitboxes and everything else in a working day.

You're misunderstanding me, they were ALREADY working on getting her in the game as a skin. So basically, she would have been in the game, in some form, either way.

And really, if you're going to argue that even making her model took time away from the development of other characters, then you should also be arguing that trophies are "wasting slots/time/disk-space". Also, I can guarantee you that they were working on several different characters while they were putting Lucina in the game. They most likely have many different, small teams working on many different things at the same time, and characters are no exception.

What I'm trying to say is, that this whole "X character is taking a slot away from Y" is a silly argument. These game developers aren't stupid, they know how to manage their time, disk-space, and money. If a character doesn't make it into the game, they really weren't supposed to.

 

[Katy Parry]

You're misunderstanding me, they were ALREADY working on getting her in the game as a skin. So basically, she would have been in the game, in some form, either way.

And really, if you're going to argue that even making her model took time away from the development of other characters, then you should also be arguing that trophies are "wasting slots/time/disk-space". Also, I can guarantee you that they were working on several different characters while they were putting Lucina in the game. They most likely have many different, small teams working on many different things at the same time, and characters are no exception.

What I'm trying to say is, that this whole "X character is taking a slot away from Y" is a silly argument. These game developers aren't stupid, they know how to manage their time, disk-space, and money. If a character doesn't make it into the game, they really weren't supposed to.

You summed up my thoughts pretty much perfectly. She was already going to be a skin. He saw the potential of having her as her own character. That's not wasting anything. He simply gave her her own slot and made her slightly different. Period. That's all that happened. And frankly, I'm happy we have our first FEMALE sword user (along with Marth Robin). It's EXTREMELY refreshing.

 

[Dragon1128]

This whole "Clone takes a "slot" argument is garbage.

IF you believe slots exist, which frankly, I don't. Clone characters certainly do not take a "spot" Clone characters are easy to make, they have the same animations, the same movesets, etc. The only "Work" required is making a model, that's practically it.

You can probably make 8 toon links or Lucinas for the same amount of effort and time it takes to make 1 new guy. Hell, probably even more. Especially considering Lucina's model was already there, due to being a planned marth skin.

 

[Katy Parry]

This whole "Clone takes a "slot" argument is garbage.

IF you believe slots exists, which frankly, I don't. Clone characters certainly do not take a "spot" Clone characters are easy to make, they have the same animations, the same movesets, etc. The only "Work" required is making a model, that's practically it.

You can probably make 8 toon links or Lucinas for the same amount of effort and time it takes to make 1 new guy.

Sakurai stated in a interview he can make 6 semi-clone characters for the same amount it takes for one character. It's obvious characters aren't left out due to clones. That's not how it works. Some people just don't understand that.

 

[Hong]

They include as many character as they can, not include a certain number of characters. He made a reasonable draft, and reasonable point of time for when his team will finalize the roster (probably early 2014) at the latest. Anyone who isn't in at that point, tough luck. Lucina probably took a day to implement. Copy Marth and make a "Marth 2" on the data. You don't even need a working character model; graphics and audio will be handled by people completely different than programmers and audio. There is programming and animation involved to make sure everything aligns right for Lucina, but nowhere near as much when Marth was initially conceived.

And it's not like budget is an issue for her, either. Fire Emblem: Awakening was expected to ship 300k units, yet has over 30 voice actors, many of them the best in the business. That's pennies compared to Smash Bros.

 

[RedCap-BlueSpikes]

This whole "Clone takes a "slot" argument is garbage.

IF you believe slots exists, which frankly, I don't. Clone characters certainly do not take a "spot" Clone characters are easy to make, they have the same animations, the same movesets, etc. The only "Work" required is making a model, that's practically it.

You can probably make 8 toon links or Lucinas for the same amount of effort and time it takes to make 1 new guy. Hell, probably even more. Especially considering Lucina's model was already there, due to being a planned marth skin.

Pretty much. I do believe it's been said that the 6 clones that were added into Melee took about as much time to make as 1 unique character. They have a bigger team now, so it probably takes even less time than that!

 

[QuickRat]

In melee it is stated Dr. Mario was added just because one of the devs wanted his music in the game and pichu because sakurai wanted to make a joke character. Sakurai mentiond Ganadorf was lucky he made it in Melee because Captain Falcon and he share similar body types. So I do not think Unique characters are trashed for clones except in the event of time constraints or to fill the roster. Remember 1 unique character = a handful of clones who can be luigified in future games.

That would mean that nothing has change in video game development for all this 12 years.

 

[Wanderer from Roseyard]

There are only slots in the sense that there is a limited amount of time to complete every character they want to do. The time it took to add any character could have instead gone to any other character; that's opportunity cost for ya. The ones that make it are the ones that deserved to.

If we're meaning in the sense that the team starts off saying "There will be exactly six Pokémon but we don't know who yet," then that doesn't happen.

 

[Moldy Clay]

Sakurai confirmed in Famitsu that ROBIN is the reason Chrom is not in.

Essentially, Chrom was planned, but Sakurai felt he'd be too samey, so he opted for Robin, who was more unique.

Lucina was intended to be a costume for Marth, but Sakurai decided to arbitrarily tweak her, so she became a character. She is samey, but she's basically just a costume with a slot on the screen. She's literally a BONUS character on top of the planned roster. She's not stealing anyone's spot. She was added IN ADDITION to the ALREADY PLANNED roster. Almost like a DLC that was already added in. On top of that, she was ALREADY in the game as a costume.

And there is no finite amount of slots. They add or subtract as they go along. It's not like they go LET'S PICK 50 GUYS and then someone doesn't make it because of 'slots'. They don't make it in because they don't. Nothing else to it.

Toon Link isn't blocking Ghirahim, Tingle, Impa, Skull Kid, Midna or Vaati from getting in because of a made up alotted amount a series gets. If Sakurai wants 6+ Zelda characters, he'll add them in. It's not determined by some slot number. Melee was only going to have 19-20 characters. We got more because of clones. Without them, we'd just have less characters, not different characters.

The bottom line is that Lucina didn't get in over Chrom. Robin did. So the roster would've been Robin alone or as it is now, with Robin & Lucina.

So if the roster was, say, 50 characters with Lucina, removing Lucina would just give use 49, with Lucina as a costume. We wouldn't get a replacement. She's an extra. OR we'd have just gained a different clone, putting us in the same situation..

 

[PKBeam]

If a character doesn't make it into the game, they really weren't supposed to.

Melee
This is starting to point off topic.

I have heard lately on here, that there is no such thing as a character taking up or wasting a slot. As in Sakurai doesn't sit there and go "who should I put in, Wario or Mewtwo? WELP, I pick Wario, bye bye Mewtwo". Many people complain about this, where if a character they don't like makes it in, then that character is taking up a "slot" from another character that is apparently more deserving. I am myself a bit confused so can someone clarify?

Nowhere here is the word "clone" mentioned or inferred.
I used Lucina as an EXAMPLE, without regard to her status as a clone and my argument is not based off of her status as a clone so I can't see why people are focusing on it.
The question here is:
"Can a character take up/waste a slot?"
It doesn't matter if the roster was finalized or not, they still had a discussion about it prior which involved working out who was going to be in and no matter how good a team is, sometimes they miss a decision because it's almost impossible to work out who is objectively better for a roster (all characters have set attributes and this means that there's nothing to make their inclusion subjective, it's just very hard to figure out so people just treat it as subjective).

 

[DonkaFjord]

That would mean that nothing has change in video game development for all this 12 years.

True, but you know (especially japanese) developers have certain styles, likes, director trademarks, etc. Sakurai has his methods but a lot has changed since then as well, you're right.

 

[RedCap-BlueSpikes]

Nowhere here is the word "clone" mentioned or inferred.
I used Lucina as an EXAMPLE, without regard to her status as a clone and my argument is not based off of her status as a clone so I can't see why people are focusing on it.

I only talked about Lucina, to point out that your example was a bit flawed for the reasons I stated earlier.

As for the rest of your post, yes, the planned roster can change (Sonic in Brawl, Lucina in this game). But it's almost never been a case of "Should we include this character or this other one?". I'll give you Lucas in Melee, but that's still the only instance we know of that something like that happened. Plus, they only had a year to develop Melee, whereas these games have been in development since March 2012.

Also, of course when they're planning out the roster they choose certain characters over others. I mean, how else would they do it? Not only is it pointless to point out, but it's also pointless to complain about since we don't even know which newcomers got in over whichever character you support.

 

[Hong]

I'll give you Lucas in Melee, but that's still the only instance we know of that something like that happened.

Don't forget, Roy replaced Leif in Melee, too. Mr. Sakurai originally had intended to use the latest lord, Leif, and Intelligent Systems instead opted to promote Fuuin no Tsurugi pre-release. Granted, aside from the fire and model, everything down to the properties and voice lines would be identical.

 

[PKBeam]

I only talked about Lucina, to point out that your example was a bit flawed for the reasons I stated earlier.

As for the rest of your post, yes, the planned roster can change (Sonic in Brawl, Lucina in this game). But it's almost never been a case of "Should we include this character or this other one?". I'll give you Lucas in Melee, but that's still the only instance we know of that something like that happened. Plus, they only had a year to develop Melee, whereas these games have been in development since March 2012.

Also, of course when they're planning out the roster they choose certain characters over others. I mean, how else would they do it? Not only is it pointless to point out, but it's also pointless to complain about since we don't even know which newcomers got in over whichever character you support.

Speculation.
And mostly people focus on the flaws of a newcomer/new challenger and the "X character would've been better" is rarely said, people just say that the character takes up a slot when another (not actually naming any in particular) could utilise the same spot more effectively.

 

[RedCap-BlueSpikes]

Don't forget, Roy replaced Leif in Melee, too. Mr. Sakurai originally had intended to use the latest lord, Leif, and Intelligent Systems instead opted to promote Fuuin no Tsurugi pre-release. Granted, aside from the fire and model, everything down to the properties and voice lines would be identical.

Wow, I didn't know that. Is that not common knowledge, like Lucas is? I visit The Cutting Room Floor and various other cut-content/trivia based websites often and I've never heard anything about that.

 

[Hong]

Wow, I didn't know that. Is that not common knowledge, like Lucas is? I visit The Cutting Room Floor and various other cut-content/trivia based websites often and I've never heard anything about that.

There's lots of bits and pieces of information from all sorts of old magazines. This is a nice compilation of 64 and Melee stuff. The Melee stuff, in turn, was translated from a Famitsu issue dating back to 2002.