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Miracle Of Light - Palutena in SSB4 (Featuring Cereza from Bayonetta-series)

kmpyj

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This is strange. If all those attacks got knock back buffs then why didn't it show up on dantarion's data rip? Hmm.


Also I was so hyped when i went into training mode, did fair, and immediately found a buff!

Looking at dantarion's data rip, holy crap we got so many buffs! Even if they are all small, this is awesome! Looking at the data is so much more fun than having the answers all figured out for you.


About the invisibility on dodges, it's cool they got some attention but I'm not sure if I prefer it this way (airdodge is completely a buff though). Her spotdodge/roll invisibility starts 3/1 frames earlier which is cool, but we do lose 9 frames for spotdodge, 3 for front roll, and 2 for back roll. Although I guess since it's the beginning of it that matters more, maybe this will end up helping (shave off just a little more of the already very short starting visible animation).
Ah wait a minute, I see what I did wrong. I compared the 3DS version of FD with the Wii U version of FD. Both of those stages have different measurements I suppose. After testing it out with two of the same versions (both 3DS) with Patch 1.0.9 and 1.1.0, the kill results were the same.

Oops

Edit: Fair still have a knock back increase though. That much is certain. On 1.0.9 it kills Rob at 226% whereas in this patch it kills him at 200%. That one is 100% Guaranteed
 
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JayWon

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Dash/pivot grab definitely looks and feels like their end lag is decreased.

I've been reading changes of roll/dodge duration but what about length? Are roll lengths longer? It seems to cover more distance.

In what way has d-tilt hitbox increased?
 

Yoshi Kirishima

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Ah wait a minute, I see what I did wrong. I compared the 3DS version of FD with the Wii U version of FD. Both of those stages have different measurements I suppose. After testing it out with two of the same versions (both 3DS) with Patch 1.0.9 and 1.1.0, the kill results were the same.

Oops

Edit: Fair still have a knock back increase though. That much is certain. On 1.0.9 it kills Rob at 226% whereas in this patch it kills him at 200%. That one is 100% Guaranteed
Ah darn it. That got me excited but all those knock back buffs were a bit hard for me to believe still.

Regarding the fair, the BKB and KBG might be the same, it might just be the damage calculation that's causing it to kill earlier now since it does 8% instead of 7?

I was able to kill someone off stage at 100% with fair though, slightly further away from the blastzone than usual, that was pretty cool.

ALSO ftilt feels usable now, thanks to the reliable hits and the bigger hitbox is noticeable. Dtilt hitting farther is nice too. Woot!

I just wish Palutena's name tag would disappear at the same time she goes into invisibility... especially with her air dodge buff, it would definitely help because they can't see exactly where you're DI'ing. If i were to take my tag off I'd have to adjust to tamp jump on (ugh), and also in tournaments I wouldn't have the fun of having a tag on either... please Nintendo T_T
 
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JayWon

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Palutena's grab total frames reduced by 2 frames, from 33 -> 31.

Palutena's dash grab total frames reduced by 2 frames, from 41 -> 39.

Palutena's pivot grab total frames reduced by 2 frames, from 38 -> 36.
 
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Masque

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Less endlag on all grabs is awesome!

Is it just me or Warp got really nerfed? I feel like it travels much less distance...
Didn't get altered in the patch, so it's probably just placebo.
 

JayWon

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Guys, still no word on Lightweight?

Seriously go do Lightweight right now and tell me if the slowwww blinking cool down period ain't nearly as slow.
 

kmpyj

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Guys, still no word on Lightweight?

Seriously go do Lightweight right now and tell me if the slowwww blinking cool down period ain't nearly as slow.
I tested it, and they're the same. From the active frames, the blinking frames, and the waiting froms, each are the same as before.
 

kmpyj

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Did you compare the Dash speed during the blinking frames?
Oh, my bad. I thought you were talking about the active vs cool down frames.

Anyway, the speeds still feel the same to me though. If there was any changes made at all, they would be pretty small to see a difference.
 

C3CC

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Now if only they reduced the ending lag to all of her Smash attacks... I seriously think she's not high tier because of that...

At least she's god(dess)-tier in terms of fun.
 

lRasha

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So apparently they didn't make any changes to the function (i.e. intangibility) of her dodges, but the period of invisibility has changed (faster/shorter on spot/side dodges, slightly longer on air dodge).
Curious... What do the changes on her spot/side/air dodges mean for her? Being able to react faster out of a spot/side dodge (like grabbing or doing a jab-grab afterwards)? Maybe it'll help her close-up game more. Being able to avoid moves and multi-hit moves better with a longer airdodge (since she's suppose to be a defensive character)?

Also... yesterday, I... *sniff sniff* successfully spiked someone with her... I rarely go for one but I got one :D
 
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kmpyj

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Random topic, but you know, despite many not liking Palutena's default moveset, I'm actually quite fond of it. After sitting back and thinking about my preferred moveset, I realized that I preferred 3/4 of her default moves over her custom parts. Those being Auto Reticle, Reflect, and Warp. The only custom move I would prefer over her default is Light Weight > Counter.

With or without Light Weight, I'm realistically playing as Palutena like I normally would (though with Light Weight it would be fast paced and I would probably get early kills). I think it's not necessarily the special moves that define a character's viability, but rather the player behind that character.

Not trying to toot my own horn, just something I notice these past few months.
 

Palutina

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I really think celestial fireworks is way slept on. I love that move. It's villagers up smash on crack. And acid.
 

Masque

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Curious... What do the changes on her spot/side/air dodges mean for her? Being able to react faster out of a spot/side dodge (like grabbing or doing a jab-grab afterwards)? Maybe it'll help her close-up game more. Being able to avoid moves and multi-hit moves better with a longer airdodge (since she's suppose to be a defensive character)?

Also... yesterday, I... *sniff sniff* successfully spiked someone with her... I rarely go for one but I got one :D
The changes are purely animation-based, but I think this means the invisibility now lines up better with the period of intangibility.

And congrats on the spike! I've found mild success by going beneath a recovering opponent to bait the airdodge, then jumping up to net the spike.
 

kmpyj

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A friendly reminder that:

Palutena never completely lost her super speed exploit. It can still be done via an jump cancel item throw, and if you try to perform it without an item, the effects now only work if you run off a ledge.
 

lRasha

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Does anyone ever feel like they're one of the few Palutenas on For Glory? lol Most of the time I'm Palutena and I rarely ever fight one
 
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Masque

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Does anyone ever feel like they're one of the few Palutenas on For Glory? lol Most of the time I'm Palutena and I rarely ever fight one
Yeah, I'm in Japan, and I only run into other Palutena players on very rare occasions.
 

kmpyj

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Does anyone ever feel like they're one of the few Palutenas on For Glory? lol Most of the time I'm Palutena and I rarely ever fight one
Your not the only one. That's why I always say I know how to play as Palutena, but don't know how to fight one. The only good Pallys I have actually fought against are from this thread. But the last time I had a match with them was last year on the 3DS, so it's been a while.

Off topic, another thing I noticed about Super Speed, is that when you use the move and stop, it will also trigger the exploit. Though it's not as strong as it normally would, it still is something to work with. It only seems to take the speeds it normally would if light weight is activated. So there you go, for all you Customtenas out there.
 

NovemberMan

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Does anyone ever feel like they're one of the few Palutenas on For Glory? lol Most of the time I'm Palutena and I rarely ever fight one
Currently, I feel like I'm the only one - at least in 1v1s. I see more of them on 4-player Smash. However, the way they play there is very questionable - in my opinion, anyway.

1v1s for me, right now, are flooded with :4falcon:,:4ganondorf:,:4myfriends:,:4pikachu:,:4ness:,:4lucas:,:4feroy:,:4sonic:,:4mario:,:4luigi:,:4dk:, :4littlemac:,:4link:,:4tlink:, and most recently, :4falco:.

Pretty much any character that isn't :4palutena:. Even :4zelda: and :4samus: are seen on FG.
 

lRasha

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Currently, I feel like I'm the only one - at least in 1v1s. I see more of them on 4-player Smash. However, the way they play there is very questionable - in my opinion, anyway.

1v1s for me, right now, are flooded with :4falcon:,:4ganondorf:,:4myfriends:,:4pikachu:,:4ness:,:4lucas:,:4feroy:,:4sonic:,:4mario:,:4luigi:,:4dk:, :4littlemac:,:4link:,:4tlink:, and most recently, :4falco:.

Pretty much any character that isn't :4palutena:. Even :4zelda: and :4samus: are seen on FG.
Captain Falcons are by far the most that I see on FG.
 
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Yoooo. I love this character surprisingly even with her default moveset

Definitely making her my permanent secondary :D

What are her KO options btw other than u-air or roll reads with f-smash/d-smash or reading with u-smash?
 

kmpyj

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Yoooo. I love this character surprisingly even with her default moveset

Definitely making her my permanent secondary :D

What are her KO options btw other than u-air or roll reads with f-smash/d-smash or reading with u-smash?
Some of the KO options I know of consist with Bair and her Dash attack. UTilt can also kill too, as well as her UThrow at high percentage.

Some of my most common KOs is using Nair when my opponent is off stage and is trying to recover. If close to the stage, move slightly away, which will cause you opponent to be sent diagonally toward the stage, and will have them bounce off diagonally downward away from the stage. Kills almost anyone at 50% if they already jumped, with only a few exceptions like Villager, who's recovery is too good. But this could be avoided by waiting to 70%, which would probably kill Villager before he has time to recover.

Another one is using reflect. Though the move itself isn't what kills your opponent, it's the effect of the move that does. I can't tell you have many Little Macs I've ended using this move. When they try to recover, whether it be with their side special, or up special, just simply use reflect. It pushes them away from the stage, stops them from grabbing the ledge, thus killing them. Now, it doesn't just work on little mac. It can work on Shulk, Mario, and even Zero Suit. It just all about timing.
 

BJN39

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Currently, I feel like I'm the only one - at least in 1v1s. I see more of them on 4-player Smash. However, the way they play there is very questionable - in my opinion, anyway.
WAIT, do you play 3DS FG by chance?

I purposefully play very questionably as Black outfit Palutena on 3DS 4-Player FG :secretkpop:

I do these weird spin movements and slide around in a hilarious fashion, and taunt a bunch, and then try and only use her tilts and some DAir to win :secretkpop:
 
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NovemberMan

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WAIT, do you play 3DS FG by chance?

I purposefully play very questionably as Black outfit Palutena on 3DS 4-Player FG :secretkpop:

I do these weird spin movements and slide around in a hilarious fashion, and taunt a bunch, and then try and only use her tilts and some DAir to win :secretkpop:
Nope, just Wii U.
 
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Is there a list of KO percentages for Palutena's u-tilt, u-throw and b-throw (b-throw near the edge, preferably)?
 

MysteriousSilver

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On Mario, Smashville, in training mode, no DI:

Bthrow 135% at the edge
Uthrow 181% center stage
Utilit 135% center stage

Obviously compensate for DI and individual characters and stages
 

BJN39

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On Mario, Smashville, in training mode, no DI:

Bthrow 135% at the edge
Uthrow 181% center stage
Utilit 135% center stage

Obviously compensate for DI and individual characters and stages
It should be noted that with good vector (For Bthrow.) that the KO power pretty much gets neutered. Bthrow assuming all the same circumstances (But with correct vector) goes up to roughly 155%, going from comparing to Zelda's which has roughly the same no DI percent and also good DI percent. (I had had a rough percent for Palutena at one point, and it was near that.)

Uthrow stays nearer to the same though. It doesn't use a 90 degree angle, so it can be DI'ed slightly better. I suppose that's the same with Utilt, too. Utilt goes to just under 150% with good DI on 3DS, so maybe 140% ish on WiiU. Rage makes Uthrow and Utilt alright at KOing.
 
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Whoa. Those percentages are depressing ;;

I'll just stick to making reads with d-smash or u-smash (maybe I'll use b-throw, or u-throw, or u-tilt if I manage to rack up that much percentage)
 

RedCap-BlueSpikes

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U-tilt can kill pretty early with Rage (I've killed Roys and Sheiks with it around 95% before while I was at 125%) so it's still useful. Jab>U-tilt is actually legitimately threatening to most characters when Palutena's above 90%
 
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Yoshi Kirishima

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Palutena's kill options aren't as bad as those %s look, as rage and stage positioning are a big factor, especially due to Palutena's style. Also, what redcap said!

jab -> utilt scales tremondously with rage.

If you are at 125% and they are sheik on T&C they will die at 110 before utilt.
Upthrow will kill at 120 with same conditions.

Utilt, upthrow, and upair are your "guaranteed kill moves" past a certain %, not only because they hit them vertically (less based on stage positioning) but because the knockback scales hard and "guarantees" a kill past a certain %, even if a bit staled.
With good rage (100-150), utilt will kill at 120, upthrow will kill at 140, upair will kill at 100 (normal stage height like smashville and FD).

Bair and fair are kill moves that don't have high scaling, but will kill at higher %s mostly based on positioning. For example, if you have 125%, bair may not kill at the center of the stage even at 150%. But if you ledge trump them, they can die at 90. Similarly, fair will not kill at the center of the stage until about 180%, but at the ledge it will kill at 120 (this is a really nice number, thank you 1% damage buff -- before hand it was like 140, that 1% really did a lot in the knockback calculation). Really though being able to kill with dthrow -> fair at 110% before grabs/pummels at the ledge is really nice (in case upair doesn't combo some reason). It is a true combo.

Upsmash vs dsmash: upsmash is almost always better, except in cases where you have no or almost no rage, in which case dsmash can be slightly slightly better (the tip of dsmash, which sends horizontally, can kill a few % earlier if at the edge), because upsmash has more BKB which is affected by rage, but dsmash has a high KBG.
Dsmash(sweetspot, diagonal trajectory) kills at 115 without rage, 95 with 125 rage.
Dsmash(tip, horizontal trajectory, at ledge) kills at 95 without rage, 80 with 125 rage.
Upsmash kills at 100 without rage, 80 with 125 rage.

Fsmash vs dsmash: fsmash is always better regardless of sweet or sourspot, stage positioning, and rage. Perhaps the only situation where you should dsmash over fsmash is if you would be fsmashing him across the stage, in which case a dsmash's sweetspot diagonal trajectory would be better, but in that case you should just upsmash.

Fsmash kills at the ledge at 80% without rage, 65% with 100% rage.
Fsmash kills at the center at 100% without rage, 85% with 100% rage.
Fsmash kills at the opposite side at 140% without rage, 110% with 100% rage.

Fsmash is one of those attacks that rely a lot more on horizontal positioning, thus rewarding stage control and hard reads.

Other moves to consider:
Bthrow kills at the ledge at 150% without rage, 135% with 100% rage. Without proper DI or if they don't react fast enough, bthrow can kill at 110% with 125% rage. Dtilt kills at the ledge at 130% without rage, 110% with 100% rage.
Nair off stage (edgeguarding) will kill at 120-140% depending on rage.
Nair on stage will kill at 140-160% depending on rage and stage positioning.
Ftilt kills at the ledge roughly 125-150 (?).
Fthrow kills on short horizontal blastones (SV) at the ledge at 150% (rage insignificant) if they DI away expecting you to dthrow -> fair, or if they are trying to DI your upthrow away from the stage. Unfortunately this will be very situational, but still something to consider (if only fthrow scaled slightly harder, it would be a real threat and further compliment her scary grab/mixup game, and reward stage control even more, but instead she has a very mediocre fthrow game). If they react to this and know they may die, if they stop DI'ing away during the flight (even if they were DI'ing away when the fthrow occured) then they will not die, unless perhaps at even higher % (in which case you should just upthrow, unless you have no rage to do so since upthrow with no rage won't kill until ~180, but a fthrow with mis-DI may at 150).


(Numbers based on average weight, like Marth, and based on average blastzones).
 
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MysteriousSilver

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I am having a hell of a time learning the distance to ledge-cancel warp on platforms from above them. I wanted to work this into my game due to having a hell of a time getting back on stage against certain characters (Sheik, Ness) and figured it'd be a good option, but I'm not even landing it... well, at all.

This can be done, right? Warp diagonal down onto a platform to cancel from the air?

It probably doesn't help that I play with tap jump.
 

Yoshi Kirishima

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I am having a hell of a time learning the distance to ledge-cancel warp on platforms from above them. I wanted to work this into my game due to having a hell of a time getting back on stage against certain characters (Sheik, Ness) and figured it'd be a good option, but I'm not even landing it... well, at all.

This can be done, right? Warp diagonal down onto a platform to cancel from the air?

It probably doesn't help that I play with tap jump.
Try to warp at a 45 degree angle, it has the most leniency. Smashville's a pretty good stage to practice this on, use the moving platform. Thanks to its size and also because it moves, there is a looot of leniency for warp cancelling. Try to warp cancel from one side to the other, and repeat, all of them at 45 degree angles.
 
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Anyone have any advice for discouraging C. Falcon from dash grabbing?
Play defensively and try react to his dash grabs. B-air his dash grab if you can

To be honest, it's really hard to discourage Falcon from dash grabbing. It's a core aspect of his dominant neutral. If anything, you have to be the one respecting his dash grab, instead of just discouraging it
 

sleepy_Nex

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Many Cpt. Falcons just run into rapidjabs because they don't jump or stop early enough.
 

Silleby

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I am having a hell of a time learning the distance to ledge-cancel warp on platforms from above them. I wanted to work this into my game due to having a hell of a time getting back on stage against certain characters (Sheik, Ness) and figured it'd be a good option, but I'm not even landing it... well, at all.

This can be done, right? Warp diagonal down onto a platform to cancel from the air?

It probably doesn't help that I play with tap jump.
I personally always practice on Battlefield, pretty much 5-10 minutes a day (sounds weird as hell, but I actually do so) Try getting Ledgecancel chains on 1 of the 2 side platform, or a double ledgecancel on 1 platform into edge of the stage.
 
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