Mindgames : In melee vs brawl : Read the first post before responding please.

[I.T.P]

basically the way I see it, the definition of a mind game is to play a game with your opponent's mind, I.E to trick him, it doesn't matter if you caused him to make a mistake, or you just did something unpredictable and he couldn't respond right, as long as you did something that is diffrent from what he was expecting or is reasonable to expect, it's a mind game.

now as to brawl mindgames.... let's see...

turn arounds - this was in Melee, but was considerably changed\buffed in brawl, some characters have unique turn around animations(that is, dash turn around) which are pretty quick and\or unexpected and can be jumped out of or shield canceled into aerials\grabs\shield lifting -> any attack.

Raising DJ moves - the replacement for DJC for everyone besides peach(cause her double jump barely rises) this excutes your aerial while rising in the air, most usefull with lucas Fair\Uair, and yoshi's Nair\Bair and etc' , being an unexpected form of execution, I'd consider this a mind game. you can also combo stuff using it at the correct %s, like lucas rising Fair to normal Fair.

hmmm, I'll have to think about more generic ones that fit many characters, I'll try and post again later on tonight if I have time, there'll be a smashfest at my house

 

[Corigames]

It's that time of the day when the sun comes up... so I think it's that time where I go down. I'll ***** and moan about Brawl later.

see ya

 

[CT Chia]

Time to throw my hat into the ring.

First off, when I read this thread, I had thought that there are plenty of mindgames in brawl! However I then talked to Eggm (the creator of this thread for those who didn't notice), and my view completely changed. All of the mindgames I thought were in Brawl were indeed in Melee, it's just that the mechanics have changed slightly.

A lot of my Brawl "mindgames" are based on the new air dodge system. (Notice how I emphasize mindgames because many people will mistake mindgames for other things and I do other techniques that aren't quite mindgames which I'll bring up later). I would try to trick my opponents into air dodging when I wanted them to, then punishing them after it's over and before they can air dodge again. For instance, my opponent is high up and I spring up under them as Sonic. My opponent assumes I will uair right away so right when I get up there, they air dodge. I don't attack yet and as we both float down, I then uair right when their air dodge ends.

Stuff like that, but really it was the same in Melee. Air dodging was still in Melee, so instead you had to trick your opponent into air dodging but if your opponent guessed wrong, they were punished more for it as you were stunned till you hit the ground after air dodging in Melee.

Some mindgames have dissapeared from Melee to Brawl, but really none of developed. However, mindgames are a very interesting aspect of the game. It's essentially taking what people have learned of how to play the game, and using it to your advantage. This is one of the few times where Brawl not being around for long can indeed hurt. Since the game hasn't been around for so long, there isn't much of a developed metagame. There is no set way such as how to fight as Marth, or how to fight as Sheik as there was in Melee. So without a set pattern to learn after, there is no set pattern of weaknesses to exploit. It's harder to predict your opponent when no one completely knows the "true" way to play every character, as that's essentially every mindgame starts, you predicting your opponent.

Now what people mistake for mindgames as I almost did at first is tech chasing. Because of the character's speed in Melee, tech chasing was huge. Almost any character could do it. My main for instance, Samus, was not a very fast character. However, with the right prediction, Samus can grab your opponent out of their tech as some people have said it's almost like a chain grab (it's obviously not but just imagine being grabbed by a Samus over and over, yea it sucks lol). Everyone has experienced tech chasing in some point in Melee whether you used it or it was used on you. Tech chasing is also seen a lot with character's like Falcon or Marth as they dash dance waiting for another grab.

Now in Brawl tech chasing is quite different.
1) Dash dancing is pretty much out. There is a small amount of dash dancing for characters, but it barely helps and doesn't help you tech chase as efficiently.
2) Many characters are too slow to now tech chase.
3) Since there is so little hit stun, many opponents have no need to tech off the ground.

However, similar to many other techniques have surface in Brawl, tech chasing has become nearly character specific. I can pretty much think of 3 main characters that can do so, though there are more. First which I'm not sure of is Falcon. The only reason I suspect he can tech chase somewhat nice is because his speed, however that leads into the character, king of tech chasing, Sonic. Sonic is by far the fastest character, and has little power so most of his moves don't send you far, so you can easily chase your opponent down. Also, do to his fast speed, Sonic has something like a pseudo dash dance, while you can't pivot attack out of it like Melee, it helps you keep onto your opponent, keeping them wondering which way you'll go next. And finally would be Game and Watch with his down throw. The problem with this is that it's one move, but it's one awesome tech chase opportunity. Down throw puts your opponent right on the ground, and no matter where they go, GAW can either grab again, or hit with pretty much any attack, even the devastating 9 hammer. And it works at all %s...

Ok, enough about tech chasing in a mindgames thread lol. I guess the point I'm trying to make is, barely any mindgames have surfaced from the Melee to Brawl switch, and yet some have been lost. Tech chasing can SORT OF be seen as a mindgame, but it's really a stretch, but I also showed how tech chasing has changed from Melee to Brawl, as it's still present in some form, just quite different. This could be the case with mindgames which is one main thing that can develop from just playing the game for a while. Were not even at the 1 month point yet since the US release. I'm sort of neutral on the topic, but yea Eggm is right by all means. Slower does NOT mean more mind games. If anything it means less as it gives people more time to think and not act stupid.

 

[D20]

I don't think many of the players on smashboards know just how many techniques and mindgames wavedashing opened up. Most players will just mention wavedashing back to avoid an attack or something along those lines. However, the physics of wavedashing allowed much more. Here's a short list that doesn't even include everything...

1.) Wavedashing from ledge - This was the fastest way to get back onto the stage and it could lead into practically anything (especially grabs).

2.) Wavelanding - You want mindgames? Falco/Marth empty short hop to waveland back fsmash is truly too good.

4.) Waveshining - I don't even need to say anything else.

5.) Wavedashing out of shield - We covered this already.

6.) I don't know what the name for this one is, but I see Fox players do it all the time. When they do their uair combos, they will often quickly dodge into the platform above them. This basically gives them a type of 3rd jump that allows them to chase opponents that would typically avoid another uair.

So basically, all of these are gone from Brawl. The removal of wavedashing wasn't simply a removal of speed and one mindgame. It was the removal of many combos and many mindgames.

 

[Eggm]

Wavedashing did remove a ton of depth from the game. Most of the things you mentioned weren't mindgames. xD Number 2 was tho, I used it a lot. Reik was awesome with it. 1) is more like a technique used to get on the stage another way. Wave shining was also just a technique lol. You mean you Wding outta shield? Thats also more of a technique unless like say your emblem lords marth and bait falco into attacking your shield then Wding out to tipper. 6) Also isn't a mindgame thats just wavelanding onto a platform to continue a combo lol. Thats like saying falcos shine then wding onto a platform to continue combos is a mindgame, its just a technique. But anyways yes, theres no doubt that wavedashing removed a ton of depth, but lets focus on the mindgames it removed from melee to brawl like # 2. , Or mindgames in brawl that weren't in melee. Lol, its not like you mindagmed your opponent into staying in hit stun while you were wavelanding onto a platform to double jump up air with fox.

Another one involving wavelanding is while edge guarding, doing an empty SH so they think your gonna try and hit them with an ariel but wavelanding fast fall edge hogging them real fast. Its pretty tricky. And then maybe they will react slow enough that you can ledge hop spike them while invincible or something.

 

[D20]

Sorry, I get a little excited when people mention wavedashing. It's so much fun!

 

[LouisLeGros]

I don't know about anyone else, but I find that quantifying mindgames is sort of stupid.

People who say Brawl requires more thinking then melee though... well I'll just say that is a poor opinion.

 

[Eggm]

Wavedashing is fun! If you think its stupid feel free to ignore the thread.

 

[Inferno_blaze]

I hate it when people act as if a "mindgame" is a move you can pull off in a game.

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

I hate it when people act as if a "mindgame" is a move you can pull off in a game.

If you think mindgames exist at all, then they are.

A lot of people believe mindgames to be a misconception and that they don't exist, people confuse it with playing smart.

 

[Wind Owl]

However, similar to many other techniques have surface in Brawl, tech chasing has become nearly character specific. I can pretty much think of 3 main characters that can do so, though there are more.

Just pointing out that you forgot Snake and his cool Dthrow.

 

[aho43]

Stuff I did in melee and what I can think of as their closest equivalent in brawl:

1) grab baiting (from the air)
melee: empty jump in front of someone's shield and either waveland out of grab range or just space away and punish them if they grab
brawl: can't waveland anymore, just gotta kinda float out of range, still useful vs grab happy people, altho grab isn't a great option out of shield anymore

2) run behind someone fsmash
melee: run past them, dash cancel, fsmash backwards
brawl: only way to do this is with quick shield, drop, fsmash backwards, or with a fox trot, which isn't as good

3) platform tech chase
melee: you could waveland on platforms to smash or grab, just stay below and follow their tech/non-tech with an aerial or tilt or whatever
brawl: you can still follow onto in a similar way, but less effectively imo. on moving platform stages you can do the platform passthrough cancel thing, if you don't know what i'm talking about you can find it in Brawl Tactical discussion, looks sorta like a waveland.

4) eat a hit to land a hit
melee: with certain characters with quick aerial recovery, peach, luigi, you would eat hits at low percents to land ko hits with nair, or something else that comes out quickly, you could also do this with crouch cancelling with almost everyone
brawl: you can do this with pretty much every character now in the air

5) fake an edgeguard, take the edge instead
melee: jump out, or sh, or whatever, take the edge instead
brawl: same thing, altho less effective, with edgehog being less effective

6) the wait
melee: basically rush down but wait for a reaction to punish, sidestep, roll, jab, etc.
brawl: still in there, replace wavedashing down, or dash cancelling, with shielding, or dash turnaround to dash turnaround cancel. tap shield, rapid jab, or tap shield fsmash, etc.

7) run past grab
melee: this had to be done with wavedashing to grab, or da dash grab, if you're close range.
brawl: this is buffed with the new pivot grab, particularly good with tether grab characters

8) ledgewavedash fakeout
melee: dj, ledgewavedash back off, then double jump back onto stage and punish if they do something to punish
brawl: can't really do it

9) roll punish smashes - dunno if this should get its own mindgame, but whatever
melee: do this in conjunction with the wait, or rather its a variation on it. run up to someone and charge a smash backwards, watch them roll into it. you could do other stuff obviously, grab, whatever, but then its just a regular wait
brawl: do it the same way, great with Ike and his upsmash.

10) jump over people shielding and intercept with aerial
melee: used this most with sheik and fox, you jump over someone who is shielding and do an aerial, nair, bair, fair(with sheik), anticipating them to jump right into it
brawl: guess you can still do this, but I don't seem to use it as much for whatever reason

11) the azen
melee: do a laggy move, but just out of range that they can't punish it, but close enough that they want to and still rush in, then do a fast move to punish. azen would do this alot with marth fsmash. id do this with link a bunch, upsmash then immediately upB right after.
brawl: still the same

12) jump stealing
melee: dunno, do an attack anticipating a double jump
brawl: same

i dunno, i'll try to think of some other stuff, havent played melee in a good while, lol. keep it coming. eggm have you tried fast brawl yet, i've been told a lot of good things. better than heavy brawl according to rickr for all you heavy brawl proponents, give it a shot, find out which is better.

 

[pockyD]

I really HATE doing huge multiquote blocks but this really bugged me so i'm going to fight through it

First off, these are all technical things...but now onto your socalled new stuff

MLA - my abbriviation for "Minimum Lag Aerials": many aerial attacks now have minimal landing lag, making them almost bufferable into fast walking,Tilt spamming,Grabbing etc'.

exists in melee too... it was only because l-canceling existed that we didn't "take advantage" of this (i.e.why settle for 2 frames of lag when you can have just one?

these options can be mixed up, and the aerials can be mixed up, the best exapmle of this is squirtle's Fair and Bair, both MLAs, you can either dodge, roll, tilt spam, or grab right after using it, and mixing them up is a great mindgame.

you could say the same thing about, say, marth's fair/nair, fox's nair/dair, all sorts of stuff

RAR - Reverse Aerial Rush - having the ability to run forward and jump with your back turned forward is new to brawl, it really helps characters like Ike, which can mix up between a slow aerial and a fast aerial, tricking your opponent to thinking you're going to dash shield grab, and then do a short hop RAR with Bair is a great mindgame, especially when the alternative Fair is extremely long range and disjointed, making for a Retreating Fair vs Dashing RAR Bair mindgame.

backwards WD worked for almost all the same situations

and just to clear things up RAR does NOT involve preserving momentum in any way, since people apparently believe that. in fact, i believe RAR is a oversimplification of the actual tech, which is simply being able to jump out of your turn-around (i'd compare this to using 'wavesmashing' instead of 'wavedashing')... this mechanic actually presents far more (well, a few more) options, but it's being limited because people don't realize that you don't HAVE to jump and/or attack immediately to get the same effect

Shield Cancels or Dashing Shield - you can now cancel dashing with shield, and the resulting shield animation will slide before stopping, you can use this to mix up a normal dash grab, a dashing shield grab, a dashing shield roll, dashing shield sidestep, or just dash attack. since dashing shield wasn't in Melee, these are all new.

dashing shield was in melee - in fact, it was pretty much my chief approach tactic with everyone (along with shfflcs)

shield "cancel" (which is just dropping your shield, nothing gets canceled) out of a dash is just a poor replacement for crouching to cancel a dash, and the fast shield drop when under attack, while useful for you as the shielder, actually nerfs the game overall because it just gives the defensive player even more of an advantage

new airdodge meachanics - you can know use air dodges in a variety of ways, since you are still active and in control at the end of an air dodge, you can dash,SH,air dodge, Fair with some charaters, or land too soon and do a grab\Pivot grab, you can also do a reverse short hop air dodge -> grab when landing, as someone allready said.

this is pretty much the most interesting new thing in brawl, but overall, the things that it presents are inferior to the thing that melee's directional airdodging allowed for (wavedashing, wavelanding, triangle jumping, alternate recovery, etc)

I have more where those came from, but I want to see that my post is actually being read before writing more.

i'd like to hear them now

also, Melee's abuses(Wavedash,L-Canceling,highly comboable moves) caused other aspects of the game to be useless\not usefull, as such, things that could be done in Melee but were obsolete are now usefull, so you can call these brawl only mindgames, because in melee they plain sucked.

none of these are mindgames, they are technical options, and they are almost all inferior to their melee counterparts

"mind games" (which is a term i already hate) didn't get any more complex - in fact, they have become simpler because you have less than half the options you had in melee (i.e. instead of guessing what action you'll perform out of 5, your opponent only has to guess out of 3)... people think a drop in tech means in increase in "mind games", but they are actually directly related

 

[LinkNSnake4Main]

YOU'RE TOO SLOW.
~The Ultimate Mindgame.


/Endtopic.

 

[LouisLeGros]

mindgame:

get a friend of yours to grab your opponent's shoulder and yell boo and when he is trying to recover

 

[Dark Sonic]

YOU'RE TOO SLOW.
~The Ultimate Mindgame.


/Endtopic.

Yeah, but Falcon's Knee->Taunt was so much better http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmTdTNQgikY

 

[derpinsmash]

Time to throw my hat into the ring.

First off, when I read this thread, I had thought that there are plenty of mindgames in brawl! However I then talked to Eggm (the creator of this thread for those who didn't notice), and my view completely changed. All of the mindgames I thought were in Brawl were indeed in Melee, it's just that the mechanics have changed slightly.

A lot of my Brawl "mindgames" are based on the new air dodge system. (Notice how I emphasize mindgames because many people will mistake mindgames for other things and I do other techniques that aren't quite mindgames which I'll bring up later). I would try to trick my opponents into air dodging when I wanted them to, then punishing them after it's over and before they can air dodge again. For instance, my opponent is high up and I spring up under them as Sonic. My opponent assumes I will uair right away so right when I get up there, they air dodge. I don't attack yet and as we both float down, I then uair right when their air dodge ends.

Stuff like that, but really it was the same in Melee. Air dodging was still in Melee, so instead you had to trick your opponent into air dodging but if your opponent guessed wrong, they were punished more for it as you were stunned till you hit the ground after air dodging in Melee.

Some mindgames have dissapeared from Melee to Brawl, but really none of developed. However, mindgames are a very interesting aspect of the game. It's essentially taking what people have learned of how to play the game, and using it to your advantage. This is one of the few times where Brawl not being around for long can indeed hurt. Since the game hasn't been around for so long, there isn't much of a developed metagame. There is no set way such as how to fight as Marth, or how to fight as Sheik as there was in Melee. So without a set pattern to learn after, there is no set pattern of weaknesses to exploit. It's harder to predict your opponent when no one completely knows the "true" way to play every character, as that's essentially every mindgame starts, you predicting your opponent.

Now what people mistake for mindgames as I almost did at first is tech chasing. Because of the character's speed in Melee, tech chasing was huge. Almost any character could do it. My main for instance, Samus, was not a very fast character. However, with the right prediction, Samus can grab your opponent out of their tech as some people have said it's almost like a chain grab (it's obviously not but just imagine being grabbed by a Samus over and over, yea it sucks lol). Everyone has experienced tech chasing in some point in Melee whether you used it or it was used on you. Tech chasing is also seen a lot with character's like Falcon or Marth as they dash dance waiting for another grab.

Now in Brawl tech chasing is quite different.
1) Dash dancing is pretty much out. There is a small amount of dash dancing for characters, but it barely helps and doesn't help you tech chase as efficiently.
2) Many characters are too slow to now tech chase.
3) Since there is so little hit stun, many opponents have no need to tech off the ground.

However, similar to many other techniques have surface in Brawl, tech chasing has become nearly character specific. I can pretty much think of 3 main characters that can do so, though there are more. First which I'm not sure of is Falcon. The only reason I suspect he can tech chase somewhat nice is because his speed, however that leads into the character, king of tech chasing, Sonic. Sonic is by far the fastest character, and has little power so most of his moves don't send you far, so you can easily chase your opponent down. Also, do to his fast speed, Sonic has something like a pseudo dash dance, while you can't pivot attack out of it like Melee, it helps you keep onto your opponent, keeping them wondering which way you'll go next. And finally would be Game and Watch with his down throw. The problem with this is that it's one move, but it's one awesome tech chase opportunity. Down throw puts your opponent right on the ground, and no matter where they go, GAW can either grab again, or hit with pretty much any attack, even the devastating 9 hammer. And it works at all %s...

Ok, enough about tech chasing in a mindgames thread lol. I guess the point I'm trying to make is, barely any mindgames have surfaced from the Melee to Brawl switch, and yet some have been lost. Tech chasing can SORT OF be seen as a mindgame, but it's really a stretch, but I also showed how tech chasing has changed from Melee to Brawl, as it's still present in some form, just quite different. This could be the case with mindgames which is one main thing that can develop from just playing the game for a while. Were not even at the 1 month point yet since the US release. I'm sort of neutral on the topic, but yea Eggm is right by all means. Slower does NOT mean more mind games. If anything it means less as it gives people more time to think and not act stupid.

ok so as you can clearly see i haven't been apart of these boards for very long and there are 2 things i don't understand. first of all what exactly does the "tech" part of tech chasing means. i assume its something like an airdodge or another move which would allow a riskless grab, but I've heard the word "tech" used in multiple ways so i am unsure. also I don't quite get dash-dancing. as far as i know it was used as a way to keep your opponent guessing which way you were gonna go but wouldn't standing still have about the same effect? or is there something about dash-dancing i don't know that makes it better?

now to be on topic, i don't know of any mind games besides RAR that you can only do in brawl but i thought i'd post my favorite mind-game anyway as it is by far the coolest one in the game! basically you space yourself correctly (extremely important!) and taunt. If your opponent attempts to attack, you have just enough time to shield or spot dodge the attack and punish. I'll admit though that I've never pulled it off 100% intentionally. Closest I've came was in a sudden death match where i thought to myself "hmm, i think i have enough time to get a taunt in" which led to " oh ****! here he comes i hope i can dodge in time!" I rolled right through him and punished with a falcon kick!

And about that mindgame definition, i think you guys are over thinking it a bit too much. I like mine better as it is simplistic yet accurate.
Mindgames: ITS A TRAP!

 

[Dark Sonic]

ok so as you can clearly see i haven't been apart of these boards for very long and there are 2 things i don't understand. first of all what exactly does the "tech" part of tech chasing means.

The "tech" part in this case refers to teching off of the ground. Since there are only three possible choices in this case (tech roll foward, tech in place, tech roll backwards) it is fairly simple to follow someone's tech and punish them. This is less apparent in brawl because you can now airdodge directly out of flailing, and thus airdodge much more often than tech (since by then you're out of stun anyway).

also I don't quite get dash-dancing. as far as i know it was used as a way to keep your opponent guessing which way you were gonna go but wouldn't standing still have about the same effect? or is there something about dash-dancing i don't know that makes it better?

Dash dancing was effective in melee, because you could change directions during the entirety of your initial dash animation, which for most characters is quite long. This allowed you to move back and forth quite some distance, while never commiting to one particular direction. This was used mostly for fakeouts as you'd dash in, and then immediately dash out dodging any attacks that the opponent attempted. It also served to confuse the opponent because they were never quite sure what you were going to do from that dash dance, but at the same time would have a hard time punishing the dash dancing itself. This combined with dash canceling (crouching from a dash) would allow for sudden changes in direction and let the one on the offensive react to the defending players movements, making attacking a safer option than before.

It was nerfed in brawl because you can no longer change directions during the whole initial dash animation, but are now limited to the opening frames. This means that you really get no back and forth distance and thus can't use it to dodge attacks and rush back in afterwards. You also can't crouch out of dashing anymore, and putting up and dropping your shield is a much slower way to get this effect.

 

[Eggm]

Stuff I did in melee and what I can think of as their closest equivalent in brawl:

1) grab baiting (from the air)
melee: empty jump in front of someone's shield and either waveland out of grab range or just space away and punish them if they grab
brawl: can't waveland anymore, just gotta kinda float out of range, still useful vs grab happy people, altho grab isn't a great option out of shield anymore

2) run behind someone fsmash
melee: run past them, dash cancel, fsmash backwards
brawl: only way to do this is with quick shield, drop, fsmash backwards, or with a fox trot, which isn't as good

3) platform tech chase
melee: you could waveland on platforms to smash or grab, just stay below and follow their tech/non-tech with an aerial or tilt or whatever
brawl: you can still follow onto in a similar way, but less effectively imo. on moving platform stages you can do the platform passthrough cancel thing, if you don't know what i'm talking about you can find it in Brawl Tactical discussion, looks sorta like a waveland.

4) eat a hit to land a hit
melee: with certain characters with quick aerial recovery, peach, luigi, you would eat hits at low percents to land ko hits with nair, or something else that comes out quickly, you could also do this with crouch cancelling with almost everyone
brawl: you can do this with pretty much every character now in the air

5) fake an edgeguard, take the edge instead
melee: jump out, or sh, or whatever, take the edge instead
brawl: same thing, altho less effective, with edgehog being less effective

6) the wait
melee: basically rush down but wait for a reaction to punish, sidestep, roll, jab, etc.
brawl: still in there, replace wavedashing down, or dash cancelling, with shielding, or dash turnaround to dash turnaround cancel. tap shield, rapid jab, or tap shield fsmash, etc.

7) run past grab
melee: this had to be done with wavedashing to grab, or da dash grab, if you're close range.
brawl: this is buffed with the new pivot grab, particularly good with tether grab characters

8) ledgewavedash fakeout
melee: dj, ledgewavedash back off, then double jump back onto stage and punish if they do something to punish
brawl: can't really do it

9) roll punish smashes - dunno if this should get its own mindgame, but whatever
melee: do this in conjunction with the wait, or rather its a variation on it. run up to someone and charge a smash backwards, watch them roll into it. you could do other stuff obviously, grab, whatever, but then its just a regular wait
brawl: do it the same way, great with Ike and his upsmash.

10) jump over people shielding and intercept with aerial
melee: used this most with sheik and fox, you jump over someone who is shielding and do an aerial, nair, bair, fair(with sheik), anticipating them to jump right into it
brawl: guess you can still do this, but I don't seem to use it as much for whatever reason

11) the azen
melee: do a laggy move, but just out of range that they can't punish it, but close enough that they want to and still rush in, then do a fast move to punish. azen would do this alot with marth fsmash. id do this with link a bunch, upsmash then immediately upB right after.
brawl: still the same

12) jump stealing
melee: dunno, do an attack anticipating a double jump
brawl: same

i dunno, i'll try to think of some other stuff, havent played melee in a good while, lol. keep it coming. eggm have you tried fast brawl yet, i've been told a lot of good things. better than heavy brawl according to rickr for all you heavy brawl proponents, give it a shot, find out which is better.

Nice, keep em coming aho. Oh I didn't think people actually payed attention to making special brawl's a competitive standard, if people like you respected players are considering it I'll check it out for myself then.

 

[uremog]

the new mindgames are b-stick, "omg i tripped" and "wat, how do u do that mov?!" and snake's dthrow

tech chasing is pretty much out in brawl though since everyone's in the air for sooooo long

 

[metroid1117]

I haven't experimented with it myself, but B-sticking (as uremoq mentioned above) can lead to some potential mindgames. You can switch up B-sticking with regular B-attacks, causing you to drift backwards sometimes and others not. The most obvious example is Lucas, who gets crazy drift from B-sticking his PK Fire; it could be a potential mindgame to not B-stick PK Fire sometimes and B-stick it at other times.

Turnaround Falcon Punch (not reverse; it's the one where you turn around in the middle of it) has a LOT of drift; sometimes I just screw around with Falcon and just go past the opponent and do a turnaround Falcon Punch and nail them in the back when they're being stupid. You could probably fool someone like this when edgeguarding; against someone who has limited control with their recovery (Ness, Lucas, etc), you MIGHT be able to jump from the edge, use your double jump, and then use the drift from turnaround Falcon Punch and get them. Then again, this is very character-specific (as is B-sticking, arguably) and might not count.

Dash Attack Canceled USmashes / Boost Smashing (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=l7Q2gfVEf0k) is something new; certain characters can abuse it to it's full advantage (Snake, Sheik, etc.), but this, again, is very character specific. This also might have potential; I don't really know how it works though (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=TtxbcqWUQpE).

I generally agree with the points made in this thread - without wavedashing, Brawl has lost a LOT of mindgames; the new physics system just doesn't bring much new to the game. Frankly, I love Melee and like Brawl - it would be great if some things did come up from Brawl after all.

 

[Rapid_Assassin]

tech chasing is pretty much out in brawl though since everyone's in the air for sooooo long

Tech chasing isn't completely out, you obviously can't do it with dashdances or wavedash anymore. It's useful if your opponent trips, or you are playing a character with a move that leaves someone prone.

Brawl's mindgames will most likely end up being matchup specific. Without a general way to fight say, a Sheik or a Marth like there was in Melee, you will have to learn all the matchups with your character.

I know a few mindgames which are matchup specific in Brawl, but a lot of them are similar to stuff you could do in almost any fighting game ever. (new ways to bait missed attacks or other mistakes)

 

[nviv]

I completely agree with you, I personally feel that it is more beneficial to master multiple characters due to how matchup specific the game can be. Just for clarification I mean like 2 or 3 characters not 10.

With the lack of character specific tech skills it is easier to be competitive with multiple characters once you figure out their playstyle and the mindset required to play a character. This allows you to try to counter certain characters playstyles and is a way of adding a little bit more depth to the game.

 

[DRaGZ]

i dunno, i'll try to think of some other stuff, havent played melee in a good while, lol. keep it coming. eggm have you tried fast brawl yet, i've been told a lot of good things. better than heavy brawl according to rickr for all you heavy brawl proponents, give it a shot, find out which is better.

I've tried out fast Brawl. I actually tried it out before Heavy Brawl. It's awesome at first, but it ends up not fixing the issues seen earlier in regular Brawl since both offensive and defensive options become faster: if anything, projectile-spamming based camping becomes a bit easier. Heavy Brawl, at this point, seems to remedy such issues because defense remains the same speed while offense becomes faster.

Fast Brawl is a buttload of fun though and somewhat addictive, until you realize that your friend's Toon Link is camping again. Then you go back to Heavy Brawl...

Nice, keep em coming aho. Oh I didn't think people actually payed attention to making special brawl's a competitive standard, if people like you respected players are considering it I'll check it out for myself then.

I've been trying to promote Heavy Brawl in a serious light for a while now with actual serious intelligent discussions...reputation aside, it makes me sad that the passing word of one person can sway the perspective of someone where an entire thread dedicated to trying to explain its aspects in a serious and intelligent manner cannot.

 

[sincityserious]

i haven't read anything in this thread, besides the first couple sentences that egg had written. anyway, the problem is this: there are too many melee-nubs on these forums who have have no idea what they're talking about. sure, you guys have played melee before, but you know nothing about it, not even in the least bit; it's not even funny how clueless most of you are. in fact, most of you are so ignorant--when considering melee, mind you--that it deters the competitive, or even the slightly knowledgeable, melee player from even posting.

only those who have experienced melee at a somewhat competitive level, and, who play brawl as well, should only comment on the comparison--if you can even call it that--between the two. and, no, most of you who claim to have played melee competitively, haven't; it's very obvious to any experienced player, despite how subtle you may think you are at hiding it. trust me, it's not hard to spot the phonnies.

the bottom line is this: brawl will never reach the level melee has, at least not from a competitive standpoint. brawl was meant for the casual player, period. end of story. also, egg knows what he's talking about, so listen when he speaks.

 

[Eggm]

I haven't experimented with it myself, but B-sticking (as uremoq mentioned above) can lead to some potential mindgames. You can switch up B-sticking with regular B-attacks, causing you to drift backwards sometimes and others not. The most obvious example is Lucas, who gets crazy drift from B-sticking his PK Fire; it could be a potential mindgame to not B-stick PK Fire sometimes and B-stick it at other times.

This is just a mixup.

Turnaround Falcon Punch (not reverse; it's the one where you turn around in the middle of it) has a LOT of drift; sometimes I just screw around with Falcon and just go past the opponent and do a turnaround Falcon Punch and nail them in the back when they're being stupid. You could probably fool someone like this when edgeguarding; against someone who has limited control with their recovery (Ness, Lucas, etc), you MIGHT be able to jump from the edge, use your double jump, and then use the drift from turnaround Falcon Punch and get them. Then again, this is very character-specific (as is B-sticking, arguably) and might not count.

This is actually a cool mindgame.

Dash Attack Canceled USmashes / Boost Smashing (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=l7Q2gfVEf0k) is something new; certain characters can abuse it to it's full advantage (Snake, Sheik, etc.), but this, again, is very character specific. This also might have potential; I don't really know how it works though (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=TtxbcqWUQpE).

This is just a technique.

I generally agree with the points made in this thread - without wavedashing, Brawl has lost a LOT of mindgames; the new physics system just doesn't bring much new to the game. Frankly, I love Melee and like Brawl - it would be great if some things did come up from Brawl after all.

Yeah hopefully more is discovered, although it doesn't' seem like it. =\
Keep em coming people. I"m sure newbs are learning off reading it, and I gained a lot of reading aho's post, more intelligent posts please!

 

[AlphaZealot]

I've got a bunch of vids up and you can see in most of them examples of 1)DJ feinting 2)empty short hops leading to free hits on shielders 3)tons of cool stuff.
www.youtube.com/alphazealot
The arguments in the initial post I think are more of an exageration. As an example, empty short hops are still effective with air attacks that auto-cancel because it has nothing to do with speed, instead, if the opponent thinks they can be hit at any point during the jump, especially just before you land, then they can still be baited.

 

[Linguini]

Half of all the mindgames we worked so hard to achieve in melee got flushed down the drain the minute we turned on our wii's to play brawl.
Mindgames such as the empty shorthop, and most of all, the rock paper scissor approaching mindgames that we saw much of in melee are almost now gone. Approaching can be easily done by rolling, airdodge buffering, and shield dashing.
Straight to the point, brawl is alot more simple than melee, and while we rely on less mindgames in brawl, we emphasize on the half that stayed in the metagame from melee.
Did I mention brawl sucks?

 

[derpinsmash]

I haven't experimented with it myself, but B-sticking (as uremoq mentioned above) can lead to some potential mindgames. You can switch up B-sticking with regular B-attacks, causing you to drift backwards sometimes and others not. The most obvious example is Lucas, who gets crazy drift from B-sticking his PK Fire; it could be a potential mindgame to not B-stick PK Fire sometimes and B-stick it at other times.

Turnaround Falcon Punch (not reverse; it's the one where you turn around in the middle of it) has a LOT of drift; sometimes I just screw around with Falcon and just go past the opponent and do a turnaround Falcon Punch and nail them in the back when they're being stupid. You could probably fool someone like this when edgeguarding; against someone who has limited control with their recovery (Ness, Lucas, etc), you MIGHT be able to jump from the edge, use your double jump, and then use the drift from turnaround Falcon Punch and get them. Then again, this is very character-specific (as is B-sticking, arguably) and might not count.

Dash Attack Canceled USmashes / Boost Smashing (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=l7Q2gfVEf0k) is something new; certain characters can abuse it to it's full advantage (Snake, Sheik, etc.), but this, again, is very character specific. This also might have potential; I don't really know how it works though (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=TtxbcqWUQpE).

I generally agree with the points made in this thread - without wavedashing, Brawl has lost a LOT of mindgames; the new physics system just doesn't bring much new to the game. Frankly, I love Melee and like Brawl - it would be great if some things did come up from Brawl after all.

technically you could do a backwards falcon punch in melee as well but it is alot better in brawl as the turnaround animation is alot harder to see then C.Falcon flying through the air, obviously pointing backwards. you can also still do the old melee style turn around in brawl so ill throw out a 360 falcon punch in FFA matches from time to time.

 

[Thino]

sorry for my noobiness but can mindgames really be listed?
I mean , to me, mindgame have always been playing smart in general , be it tricking my opponent into doing something then punish or being unpredictable ( just like simply teching in the opposite direction your opponent would think of , doing a move your opponent doesnt expect, faking your opponent into UpBing early to avoid edgeguarding but edgehog instead, etc...)
seeing things like I do make the possibilities endless , and doesnt depends on the game ,Brawl , Melee or 64.

but seems like you guys have a more specific definition of mindgames , is it limited to what eggm said in the first post?

 

[Eggm]

Linguini I'm glad to see you like melee again. The last post I saw from you was in a vid section somewhere saying you went exclusive brawl. I never got to play you enough for you to quit melee!

 

[metroid1117]

technically you could do a backwards falcon punch in melee as well but it is alot better in brawl as the turnaround animation is alot harder to see then C.Falcon flying through the air, obviously pointing backwards. you can also still do the old melee style turn around in brawl so ill throw out a 360 falcon punch in FFA matches from time to time.

Yeah, you could reverse Falcon Punch in Melee, but that was only if you left the ground. I see what you mean though.

Btw, mindgames are tricking your opponent into doing a desired action based of deceptive actions, then punishing.

Doesn't a mix-up count as a mindgame then? The whole point of mixing up your attacks is to keep your opponent off guard, isn't it? An example (not with B-sticking, nor is it Melee-specific) is using Marth's forward-forward-forward-forward Dancing Blade to get people into the habit of retreating and punishing, but then using forward-forward-forward-down to catch people? You can also end Dancing Blade early, either making the opponent retreat unnecessarily or catch them DI'ing improperly, expecting the stronger 3rd hit.

Wall-clinging may be a mindgame; people might airdodge, expecting an immediate wall-jumped attack, but wall-clinging has a slight delay after which you can punish for the airdodge.

Super Armor might open up some mindgames. An example would be an Ike using Eruption while coming down, taking damage during the SA frames but killing the opponent (assuming they are over 110% and the Ike hadn't used it before).

Would attacking out of up+B count as a mindgame? (ex. Snake, Sonic, Pit, ROB (etc.?))

 

[Eggm]

I just read through a few posts of scar's thead, and I saw "Brawl takes more thought and mindgames than melee" Or something similar like 3-4 times in 4 pages. This needs to be read, and for those people in scar's thread who posted this, please enlighten me. I'm waiting.

 

[Nobie]

The whole mindgame thing doesn't entirely have to do with the game being slower, though that plays a role. The big change in Brawl compared to Melee in terms of mind games is that in Brawl your actions are much more transparent.

A lot of the overall speed and techniques in Melee, provided you learned them well, are designed for quick sudden changes or to mask your actions, such as in the case of Dash Dancing.

In Brawl, however, because everything is so "obvious," you can't deceive your opponent with smoke and mirrors like you could in Melee. The game isn't built for that. As a result, mindgames by necessity have to be long term mindgames. You have to train your opponent into doing the wrong thing, because it's more than likely that their reaction time under normal circumstances would be more than enough to deal with whatever you're throwing at them.

Certainly Melee had this as well, but the difference is that in Brawl you HAVE to play these long-term mindgames. There's no other choice. This doesn't make it better than Melee, but I think it makes it more difficult, because you have to learn how to fool your opponent with fewer tools at your disposal.

 

[Eggm]

Interesting way of looking at it, nice input.

I think you are partly referring to picking up on peoples bad habits, or making them get into bad habits then changing up your style, you do have to do this a lot in brawl, but its also good in melee too. Actually probably all fighting games use this. But yeah, nicely done we need more intelligent posts like this.

 

[FredJ]

I speak french as a native langage so I'll try to make this post as clear as possible.

I'm one that actually believes that a slower game focus more on mindgames and strategies and a faster one focus more on techniques and hand dexterity. More technicals aspect = less mindgames.

Now, listing mindgames situations for both games is not only time consuming but also a ridiculous concept for arguing about it and doesn't add much to the point of the thread in my opinion so I won't do that. And just the fact that the OP is listing some means to me that he plays like a robot , can't think out of the spot, just memorised hand gestures. I also don't understand why ppl like combos so much, it's another form of memorised hand gestures. I can compare combos to professionnal pool players, sure it takes alot of skills to get there, just like in melee, but once you get there, there's almost no room for mistakes. If the first player miss 1 shot at pool, the 2nd one can almost clear the table without letting the 1st player get a 2nd chance to recover from his mistake, how fun is that? If in melee the 1st player gets comboed to 80% just for making the mistake of let's say getting grabbed, he's put directly at a disadvantage from the start of the game, that maybe makes the game fun for you but for me it doesn't.

Now don't get me wrong, Melee have mindgames and Brawl have techniques, I'm just saying Melee focus more on techniques and Brawl more on mindgames. Wether you like more a game that focus on techniques or mindgames is your choice and I respect that. Personnally I like both games, but I'm generally better in games that focus more on the brain than the technical aspect, that's why I'm better at Brawl than I was at Melee. It's also why, although I played alot of First Person Shooters, I was always better at RTS like StarCraft and Warcraft III. There's less strategies in a FPS game, the player with faster hands have more chance of winning generally. In RTS the player having a better strategy usually win.

Why do I think a slower game focus more on mindgames ?
Let's take the slowest game in the world, Chess for exemple, or any turn based games, it removes completely any technical aspects to the game, so what's left? Of course strategies, which mindgames are all based on. How can Chess be one of the most competitive game in the world if it's that slow? The game is so slow you can see thru any moves that your opponent makes, so how can you lose? I'll answer that, you weren't smart enough for the long term mindgame, sure you saw thru his first 3-4 moves maybe 10, but did you see where he was going for the past 20-30 moves before? You obviously didn't, since you lost.

Let's take Brawl, Player 1 is attacking Player 2, Player 2 successfully blocked every attack attempts by player 1 for the past 4-5 moves, but by doing so, player 2 had to block and roll toward the edge, now player 1 have the advantage, you're more pressured when you're near the edge. Player 1 attacks player 2, player 2 still blocks the attack but that attack had a bit of kockback so it still makes Player 2 fall, Player 2 grabs the edge. Let's say both player, didn't land a single hit yet, Player 1 was always attacking while player 2 was always on the defensive side, even tho players 2 saw thru every attacks of player 1 and blocked them all successfully, and they're both at 0%, who has the advantage ? Player 2 now grabbing the edge or Player 1 waiting to make his next move?

Brawl WILL be a competitive game, just a different form of competition, just like chess is different form of competition than an FPS. Sure, all my examples are EXAGERATED, but thru exagerations, you can make ppl understand more your point.

I don't even understand how people cannot understand the simple fact that the more you bring technical aspects to a game, the more you make it focus on hand dexterity and muscle memory. It's like in Melee, I knew exactly what I had to do in order to defeats my opponent, I just wasn't fast enough to execute it, when the technical aspect acts like a barrier for what you're only capable of doing and what you really wanna do, that's what make it less of a strategy game.

A Math genius wouldn't win a single game of Melee vs Ken without learning the technical aspect of the game first because he would be too slow and that lower his windows of options to counter. But he would beat Ken at chess easily even if it's the first time he played once learned the basic rules of the game.

This post was ALOT longer than I originally intented but I hope it clears it up for you.

 

[Corigames]

Just because something only uses mindgames doesn't mean it is the best.

If I opened a Banana store, which only sold bananas, would I be selling the best banana's in the world? No! People who sell all kinds of fruit have just a as good a chance of having great bananas as I do, even if they aren't fully concentrated on it.

Same with smash. Just because melee had mindgames, advanced tactics, combos, and speed doesn't mean that any of those things was less. If you want to imagine that because brawl was stripped of AT's, combos (let's not start something about this), and speed doesn't mean the mindgames are any better! If I give you 4 dollars, you would like that, right? Now, what if I gave you 1 dollar, but told you that dollar was better than the others, so I only gave you that one this time. Is it still as good?

No, so, please, stop saying that games that only use mindgames are better than games that use them and oter things.

 

[pockyD]

dude, blitz chess is FAR more interesting that clock-less chess because not only are you thinking about your moves, but you have to ration out your time

in case you don't understand, in this analogy, the clock is "tech skill", and yes, blitz is FAR deeper than regular chess because you'll see a much wider variety of positions

 

[Doomblaze]

I personally think that the very first post by the thread-starter is hate-filled towards brawl because you are challenging "Brawl Fanboys" to prove that there are mindgames that only exist in brawl.

People say that telling someone to move on is stupid because its their choice, but if you do not want to move on to brawl and think differently then you do when you are playing melee, then you should not post on a thread regarding brawl because you refuse to see how brawl works.

When we realize that brawl is not melee we can find more AT's and possible mindgames.
Until then, is it really smart to make these threads?

 

[Nobie]

Just because something only uses mindgames doesn't mean it is the best.

If I opened a Banana store, which only sold bananas, would I be selling the best banana's in the world? No! People who sell all kinds of fruit have just a as good a chance of having great bananas as I do, even if they aren't fully concentrated on it.

Same with smash. Just because melee had mindgames, advanced tactics, combos, and speed doesn't mean that any of those things was less. If you want to imagine that because brawl was stripped of AT's, combos (let's not start something about this), and speed doesn't mean the mindgames are any better! If I give you 4 dollars, you would like that, right? Now, what if I gave you 1 dollar, but told you that dollar was better than the others, so I only gave you that one this time. Is it still as good?

No, so, please, stop saying that games that only use mindgames are better than games that use them and oter things.

I prefer to think of it this way.

Let's say Melee and Brawl are games of Poker. The only difference is that in Brawl, you have to show your opponent three of your cards while in Melee you reveal none until the moment of truth.

There's still mind games, but the opponent also is much more aware of what to expect, and you have to find ways to manipulate the opponent not only with the cards you're not showing but also the cards you ARE showing.