• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Mind Over Meta #29 - "Why Project M?"

LiteralGrill

Smokin' Hot~
Joined
Dec 9, 2012
Messages
5,976
Location
Wisconsin
Mind Over Meta is a weekly series of articles on /r/SSBPM, the Project M subreddit. Written by several different authors, this series covers many of the mental aspects of playing smash and other subjects related specifically to Project M. This week user orangegluon is back with another excellent article. The original article can be found here, and to read the rest of the series check out the Mind Over Meta Archive. Sit down, read, and enjoy.

---​

Hey everyone, we’re back this week with another Mind Over Meta. This week, I’d like to take time to address players new to Project M, or curious about it, since most, if not all, of the previous Mind Over Meta articles have been aimed toward intermediate or improving Project M players. I recently have seen a few threads asking questions like why Project M?

So I’d like to answer that with some personal views on Project M and some context of the game, its development, and its direction.

To be clear, I do not speak for any of the PMDT, and am not associated with the development of PM at all. This article is intended as a partial retrospective to help those who find themselves asking, “what is Project M?” With our earlier article, Sharing Project M and this one, I hope that players who love PM can help spread the game and inform Smashers and non-Smashers alike about what Project M has to offer.

Melee, Beholden

After the wild success of HAL Laboratories’ character-based-beat-em-up Nintendo 64 platform fighter, Super Smash Bros., lead developer Masahiro Sakurai was pressed to create a sequel to appease fans’ love of the game. With months of effort and strain, Sakurai and his team produced Super Smash Brothers: Melee as a flagship title for Nintendo’s latest console, the Nintendo Gamecube.

Fans sat down to play Melee and immediately noticed several differences between Melee and its predecessor aside from improved graphics. For one, there were new characters! The new game increased the character roster by over 100%. Melee also had an abundance of new stages representing a huge number of franchises under Nintendo’s wings, a bevy of new and improved items, in addition to story modes, event modes, and numerous other features.

But players also noticed something else: changes in fundamental mechanics of the games. Side-specials were added for every character, throws after grabbing an opponent were possible in any cardinal direction, and smash-input attacks could be charged. Gravity also felt somewhat stronger than before, so characters fell quicker to their opponents’ level after hits. This meant new offensively-focused possibilities for each and every character in the game, as players could pick from more options.

Further, new defensive but risky movements were possible, like spot dodging and air dodging, meaning players did not rely only on shields and rolling as they had in Smash 64. Shield stuns were also reduced, so that players in defensive positions were less vulnerable to repeated barrages, and could launch counter-offensives. Momentum was also fluid, so that it was possible to dash back and forth rapidly during the initial moments of dashing, as was possible in Smash 64. This meant players could mask true intentions in movement, or confuse opponents.

Curiously, though, players discovered that a hidden mechanic from Smash 64 made a return: Z-canceling, where aerial attacks’ lags were reduced after landing, had become “L-canceling.” This was an intentionally implemented mechanic, not just once but twice in the Smash series. The effect was that players could use attacks with little waiting time in between, meaning they were able to hit or miss opponents with fewer negative consequences, but could also use the extra time to continue an offensive blitz, creating powerful combos. It seemed this was the intent of the game’s direction: players improve over time and use this hidden technique to amplify play.

Over time players discovered unintended techniques, like the infamous wavedash, where momentum from an airdodge was transferred to motion along the ground if interrupted by landing. More specific physics exploits like jumping during Fox’s and Falco’s reflector down-Bs added to the depth of possibilities. Apparent boundaries set by the game, even after including L-canceling, disappeared as players discovered more and more potential, probably to the chagrin of Sakurai and his development team. Your skill and precision were your only limits in this unique genre of fighting games; sky was the limit, and with proper technique you could move freely without restraint. People who were competitive at heart welcomed this challenge, to rise and hone abilities.

And so the world fell in love with Super Smash Bros: Melee. It gave swaths of new content and exciting features for every player who just wanted more Smash, and it inadvertently opened a competitive environment with a deep and extensive lore, Melee’s “beautiful accident.”

Brawl and Change

Some years after Melee’s release, Sakurai was tasked with repeating his previous cycle for a new game for Nintendo’s new console, titled Super Smash Bros: Brawl. Anticipation and excitement, and then release: Brawl surged onto the Nintendo Wii.

With even more characters and stages than Melee, Brawl was a hit. It also contained an unraveling story mode that captivated audiences, plus 2-player functionality for several “single player” experiences. But many Melee players felt something amiss.

Realizing that that Melee’s high gravity, risky defensiveness, and offense-oriented mechanics, coupled with physics oversights like wavedashing, left many players unable to compete with their experienced friends, the development team for Brawl contemplated. Their result was a game with careful attention to skill level balance, where any player could have fun against anyone and stand a chance. Mechanics changes like noncommittal air dodges and random tripping, together with an overall lower fall speed among the cast contributed to a competitive environment many described as “floaty,” “slow,” and “defensive,” in sharp contrast with Melee’s propane-fueled competitive scene. The Brawl community grew its own competitive scene, and most adapted quickly to focus on the new game’s potential, with an emphasis on chess-like mental fortitude. Brawl resonated strongly with the smash community, and being cemented by the series’ die-hard fans, it took over as Smash’s definitive title.

Meanwhile, Melee’s community, while dwindling, was kept together by a passion for their game. A large portion wondered where the Melee players had went, even spewing vitriol toward Brawl. And all the while, people wondered, “what would have happened if Brawl had just been like Melee?”

Nebula

The Wii’s software was cracked shortly after the release of Brawl. Clever programmers quickly loaded their systems with customized content for various games, including mods for Mario Kart Wii and Brawl. These mods are legally considered a “grey area,” and depending on interpretations of copyright law in different countries could be called illegal. However, efforts continued anyway, out of curiosity of how far technical limits could be pushed. As groups began collaborating, a project known as Brawl+ emerged to rebalance characters in Brawl through various tweaks and alterations.

Soon afterward, developers of Brawl+ designed a goal of porting Falco’s Melee design into Brawl, including the old gravity and reflector mechanics. The seeds of schism arose; some of the developers looked to continue porting Melee mechanics into Brawl, and perhaps reinvent Brawl characters as they might have been seen in Melee. Others, however, were content to stay on their intended route working toward a better Brawl. And so the team branched.

Efforts to transfer Falco from Melee to Brawl grew into an endeavor to do so with other characters, while combining elements of Brawl characters into Melee characters and transforming the playstyles of Brawl characters altogether. And all the while, the team was learning about Brawl’s engine and exploiting it in various ways.

The undertaking was dubbed “Project M” early on. And as one could guess, it slowly became a dynamic and ever-expanding project that has been through several iterations of demos, each with more features, characters, and careful planning than the last.

Burgeoning

The question “why Project M?” is one I have heard often and one which I felt compelled to answer from a personal perspective.

Today, we are experiencing Project M: Demo 3.6 Beta, the 8th (or 9th) improvement on Project M. Currently, 41 of the 39 Brawl characters are playable; indeed, in Version 3.0, Project M added Roy and Mewtwo, two characters considered horribly underwhelming in Melee and forgotten in Brawl, as new characters in a landmark technical breakthrough, as additional character slots were thought previously impossible. PM3.6B also features 2 full pages of stages to play on, and even more using the very new alternate stage loader; the full list includes classic Melee competitive stages like Battlefield and Fountain of Dreams, but also offers graphically revitalized versions of old classics like Dreamland, Peach’s Castle, and Metal Cavern from Smash 64. Further, it leaves in iconic fan favorites such as Hyrule Castle and Big Blue.

New game modes are added as well; the infamous turbo mode breaks Melee’s skill ceiling for a frenzied combo bonanza, while various stamina modes let you test your skills in different ways. Items and event matches have even been tweaked in the interest of balance and challenge. On top of that, alt costumes, one of PM’s shining jewels, offer fan service and fun official skins to players. And more features, tweaks, costumes, and perhaps even characters are on the way as every future update draws ever nearer.

But above all, the primary focus of Project M has been competitive design. As it seems, PM aims to take Melee’s beautiful accident and simultaneously expand and evaluate its consequences. It takes the concepts introduced in Melee and experiments, explores, engineers through and around them. It looks not to recreate Melee but to reinvigorate its core principles for a competitive experience with better balance across the cast than either Melee or Brawl, while incorporating the possibility of technical maneuvers from both. In my view, it takes the lessons of Melee to a new platform in Brawl’s engine for the definitive Smash experience.

This means that a variety of playstyles are viable. There is a character for nearly every type of player; those who enjoy overwhelming foes with volumes of inputs may enjoy Fox, or Lucario, or Squirtle, and those who prefer a strong projectile game might enjoy Toon Link or Samus or ROB. And there are styles in between, for every skill level. Any given player can pick up the game and find a groove, a preferred modus operandi, a unique way to have fun freely, without restraint, to a much greater extent than I have seen in other Smash games. Players identify with their choices. That is what I see in Project M. Creativity, freedom, and individuality.

Sky Is the Limit

But this isn’t restricted to competitive play. Don’t be fooled into thinking a Melee-esque game is exclusively tailored to players willing to dedicate serious time to the game. Games like Street Fighter or Tekken are more exclusive in that sense, where having even mild success typically requires long hours of learning.

Consider that Melee, the realm of competitive advanced techniques and deep, complicated interactions, sold 7 million copies in its lifetime. I can guarantee that not even close to all of those sales represent competitive players. Scores of people will spin tales of the fun they had so long ago playing Melee, people to whom “wavedashing” is either a legend or unheard of. If a game with tight controls, high octane movement, and complex coordinated combos could be so popular with a wide audience with no interest in competitive play, then so can Project M. After all, Melee was just a fun party game, and by extension, Project M could be as well.

In essence, in asking “why any game,” the answer always should boil down to “because it is fun.” There is little other reason to play a game. Project M is fun to me because it allows creativity in the offense and tricky maneuvers on defense. It is open, in the sense that essentially any character can be used to great effect against your friends or your tournament rivals, unlike Melee’s skewed balancing. It is aggressive holistically, unlike the generally thoughtful and careful pace of Brawl. And it is beautiful, between the stages and alt costumes and graphical and musical effects. But I know people who enjoy PM for their own personal reasons, different from mine.

My point is that ultimately, like with any other Smash game, Project M is what you make of it, and the things you can make of it forms a broad horizon at any level of play. That is the core of what Project M means to me, and I think that may be what it means to many other players.

Of course, Project M probably means something very different to every player, and I encourage all that are curious to try it and see what they find. I have seen a slew of different people pick up the game with different intents and outlooks, but the common ground among all of them is that they have fun some way or another. That’s pretty special to me.

Soul of a Game
People really love Project M. Check the subreddit, check Smashboards, check Twitter, check Facebook. It’s clear. Every little announcement, every new photo, sends a wave of excitement down the internet and the competitive and noncompetitive communities alike, never mind when updates are released. Crowds debate tier lists endlessly, people play in tournaments regularly, and I try to write these MoMs every week. Why? The reason is always the same one: it’s just out of love of the game.

Some people don’t like it, sure. They have their reasons, and no one is obligated to enjoy a game. But I feel strongly that everyone should try Project M, give it a fair shake, and find out what it is. Or rather, find out what it is to them.

I can’t possibly describe everything there is to know about Project M. I can’t even walk through Project M’s full, unabridged history. It, like Brawl and Melee and Smash 64 before it, and like Smash4 after, has and will continue its own legacy. Hopefully you are willing, if you haven’t already, to try being part of those stories, and part of Project M’s story in particular.

Thanks for reading a long, rambling MoM this week. I hope you found it enjoyable or even inspiring. Thanks to PlayOnSunday for proofreading. We’ll see you next week.

Take care - Mind Over Meta Writing Team.

---​

SmashCapps is always impressed with the quality of these articles and hopes others enjoy them as much as he does. To keep up with his own writing adventures follow him on Twitter.
 

Your Face

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 5, 2015
Messages
76
It's always great to hear the MoM's every week. Keep up the good work! I enjoy reading them!
 

Xenozoa425

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 6, 2012
Messages
917
Location
Palm Beach Gardens, FL
NNID
tehross425
3DS FC
3754-7153-5146
Good read, hopefully this gives people who don't know much about Project M a chance to try it out and not write it off while saying "just go play Melee", but at the same time P:M elitists (and we know they're out there) don't give other Smash players a hard time or whatever.
 
Last edited:

Daftatt

"float like a puffball, sting like a knee"
Joined
Mar 16, 2013
Messages
1,219
Location
Olympia, WA
NNID
Daftatt
saving this article forever and ever to use as fire retardant
 

WinterShorts

The best NEOH Yoshi
Joined
Apr 5, 2014
Messages
1,777
Location
Akron
NNID
Jelwshuman
3DS FC
4382-2513-9345
What a great read for us PM players SmashCapps!
 

Pippin (Peregrin Took)

Formerly “ItalianBaptist”
Joined
Jan 28, 2014
Messages
949
Switch FC
SW-0542-4021-7641
Yeah I definitely regret selling my copy of brawl. Good memories with earlier builds of pm and brawl+. Fortunately I've got plenty of friends who haven't upgraded to Wii U so I get to be the cool guy that tells them the new way to play their favorite game.

I appreciate the modding scene because of the creative freedom it allows for fans. I can make a somewhat accurate representation of "Goku in Smash Bros!!!!" with the Mii Fighters but it doesn't come close to what the modders were able to do with characters and stages.

I know there's a lot of talk about legal issues with this sort of thing, but I found a group that makes a very convincing argument for fanworks constituting fair use and not infringing copyright. This is especially true for pm as they're not charging for it and officially you're supposed to have a copy of brawl in order to run it.

This is their website: http://transformativeworks.org/faq#t454n1
 
Last edited:

Smearglangelo

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 29, 2014
Messages
398
NNID
UltraKoopaTroopa
3DS FC
4124-5097-9262
Elaborate
That's a meaningless subjective buzzword.
Maybe he believes that Project M doesn't display the same level of quality as the standard Smash games. There are a few areas that still need polishing in Project M. Some are willing to overlook those areas and just enjoy the game for what it is, but others would rather play the standard Smash games because they look nicer.

Or maybe he was just trolling.
 

Mr. KoopaTurtle

Smash Lord
Joined
Jan 3, 2014
Messages
1,075
Location
Bowser's Castle
NNID
gamedude101
3DS FC
0344-9381-8375
I love Project M, but the toxic community pushed me away. The Smash community in general is a toxic wasteland, but many of the followers of Project M are awful. I've seen countless comments and arguments started by a PM fan who trashes Brawl and Smash 4 and worships the feet of PM. It's all good that you don't like a particular Smash title, but what is so difficult about respecting the people who do?
 

PootisKonga

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 4, 2014
Messages
842
Location
Medford, NY
I love Project M, but the toxic community pushed me away. The Smash community in general is a toxic wasteland, but many of the followers of Project M are awful. I've seen countless comments and arguments started by a PM fan who trashes Brawl and Smash 4 and worships the feet of PM. It's all good that you don't like a particular Smash title, but what is so difficult about respecting the people who do?
Not that I disagree with you, but I tend to find the opposite more often: Melee/Sm4sh players looking down on the players of an unofficial "mod" that hasn't been sanctioned by Sakurai himself

Haters on both sides are really dumb
 

666blaziken

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 26, 2013
Messages
419
I love pm, but the only thing I don't like is that the PM fanbase is too divided as the fanbase all have different smash back grounds, so they have different ideals on how the game should be made and balanced, and it can be annoying in the development of a fanmod if its fanbase isn't very united.
 

badangadang

Smash Apprentice
Joined
May 30, 2013
Messages
121
Maybe he believes that Project M doesn't display the same level of quality as the standard Smash games. There are a few areas that still need polishing in Project M. Some are willing to overlook those areas and just enjoy the game for what it is, but others would rather play the standard Smash games because they look nicer.

Or maybe he was just trolling.
He's probably just trolling, but opinions are opinions and the aren't wrong necessarily.

I love pm, but the only thing I don't like is that the PM fanbase is too divided as the fanbase all have different smash back grounds, so they have different ideals on how the game should be made and balanced, and it can be annoying in the development of a fanmod if its fanbase isn't very united.
I think a big part of this phenomenon is that the game is updated on a relatively regular basis (~once or twice a year). When someone sits down to play Melee, they are given a set of rules that will never be changed again. Either someone likes Melee with its rules, tolerates Melee despite some rules, or dislikes the game and leaves. This leaves a community of people to who the idea of complaining about a low tier character's unviability is laughable, for example. That character sucks, it's just the way it is. Welcome to Melee, pick a better character or shut up. Or complaining about something like edgehogging or auto combos (like air wobble to rest) is similarly laughable to most. This is just how Melee is done.

When they play PM, the game is subject to alterations with each update, and most every decision around characters' movesets are made with a competitive focus in mind. And the development team is well defined and consists of people who generally enjoy playing PM as much or more than making it. This means that people relate more ith the development process and feel they have more say in the game than they really do. For example. if you were to complain about a certain character being too good or too bad, you aren't immediately considered unprofessional or n00by by default. In fact, large portions of the community often agree with you. Between rough balance being a secondary aim of PM and the feeling of ownership over PM's design direction, fans of PM feel they should have a strong say in PM's design. This is compounded with the fact that PMDT does regularly consider input from players and playtesters in their design process. Entitlement may be a byproduct.

But players do indeed come from varying backgrounds, in large part because PM is so accessible. Easy to obtain (with Brawl+Wii available) and easy to get into (lots of characters and playstyles possible) means that PM will get a widespread fanbase with varying opinions and/or demands. So naturally, there will be divisiveness, and this is worsened by the fact that internet arguments turn to **** quickly most of the time, and people disconnected regionally means that discussion is sort of stilted and often not cohesive. I recall some Lucario players complaining that because there was not proper communication about things that mattered, Lucario's direction in design was messy and not well thought out.

That said, it's somewhat ridiculous to try and "unite" a fanbase's opinions. If everyone has the same opinion, we call that a hive mind or echo chamber. Disagreements equal discourse equal development. It's probably equally ridiculous for someone to claim that Republicans and Democrats should just unite, because otherwise we can't develop laws properly. While that's probably true, we can't really force large-scales of opinions to collapse to some single mindset.

As far as ideals, it's important to just keep humility in mind. We aren't playing a game that we own. PMDT makes the game and gives it the direction they feel they want. We wouldn't pester Sakurai about Smash4's direction this much, and those who do bother him on a personal level (see: the reaction to Dark Pit and Lucina) are typically considered bad-mannered. Sakurai does what he wants with his game, and the PMDT does what they want with theirs, and if you think that the decisions PMDT make are stupid, you are fully entitled to express that and may be totally right. But at the same time, all the other Smash games had elements that are considered stupid as well. We're lucky we interact closely with PMDT enough to be heard, but that doesn't mean your opinion is the only one.

I've been considering writing an MoM on respect, so maybe your comment has given me some ideas for that.
 

badangadang

Smash Apprentice
Joined
May 30, 2013
Messages
121
Not that I disagree with you, but I tend to find the opposite more often: Melee/Sm4sh players looking down on the players of an unofficial "mod" that hasn't been sanctioned by Sakurai himself

Haters on both sides are really dumb
I find much less divisiveness about PM from those communities about Sakurai and officiality than I do about the actual mechanics of the game. Melee players dislike characters, certain options, and technical inconsistencies with Melee while Smash4 players dislike the engine and physics and reliance on technical maneuvers that seem to worship Melee as a god.

It's an unfair characterization of people who dislike PM to simplify their point as "it's not an official game" (though I may just not have been exposed to players who made that complaint), but you are right in that other communities have disliked the game.
 

Szion

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 26, 2013
Messages
329
Not that I disagree with you, but I tend to find the opposite more often: Melee/Sm4sh players looking down on the players of an unofficial "mod" that hasn't been sanctioned by Sakurai himself

Haters on both sides are really dumb
I see an argument on youtube every day on a SMASH 4 vid with them randomly calling out PM. It's absurd, half of them dont have any reasons to dislike the game other than "you can only air dodge once". I think smash 4 elitists are the worst kind, compared to PM brawl AND melee. and melees were pretty bad..
 

badangadang

Smash Apprentice
Joined
May 30, 2013
Messages
121
I started playing Smash "competitively" with Project M. However, now I prefer to play Melee. I switched from Project M because it just started to feel too gimmicky and it seems that the play styles of Project M and Sm4sh favor certain things. Projectile spam in Project M and Sm4sh is rampant in certain match-ups and you can win by just doing this. It just seems that camping and ledge stalling in Melee is not that bad (as PM or Sm4sh). This is just my opinion though, but I can say I am very happy playing Melee now and have found my Smash game. My time playing Project M though was probably my happiest in my life and I will never forget it. However, now it just seems different ...it's hard to explain.
Project M does tend to favor really unusual or "gimmicky" tactics, or projectiles. However, I don't find any of them as polarizing as, say, Falco's laser pressure. I'm not qualified to comment about Smash4's biases though.

For what it's worth, so that readers are not confused or misled by this post, ledge stalling has been reduced to being less effective in PM than it is in Melee. As of v3.5, I believe 3 ledge grabs in a row without touching ground leaves the grabber without any invulnerability, so ledge stalling becomes a weak option unless you periodically make yourself vulnerable by coming to stage.

I don't know about the comment concerning camping. It could be that characters in Melee that play competitively with lots of items and defensive play (i.e. Link, Bowser, others) have been powered up comparatively in PM, so those playstyles are more prevalent. This is a very valid reason to dislike PM if playing closer range games is your jam.

I'm glad you're happy with a Smash game and that you're honest about your thoughts while being respectful about it. Thanks for the feedback.
 
Joined
Mar 26, 2015
Messages
667
Location
D-D-D-DUELING IN THE SHADOW REALM
NNID
MasterIcarus7
I love pm, but the only thing I don't like is that the PM fanbase is too divided as the fanbase all have different smash back grounds, so they have different ideals on how the game should be made and balanced, and it can be annoying in the development of a fanmod if its fanbase isn't very united.
Personally, I love PM because of its roots. Any background (besides maybe smash 4) can jump straight in with almost the exact same play style. Played brawl and can't wavedash, there's Ganon, Ike, and Link to help out. Played Melee, and you aren't used to anything else? Most Melee characters were basically untouched. There's something for everybody here, and it was made that way, by the competitive community, for the competitive community. Please, feel free to provide your arguments and doubts, but I do not believe you will sway me.
 

badangadang

Smash Apprentice
Joined
May 30, 2013
Messages
121
Thank you,
I was somewhat worried about being torn apart in the comments, but reading what you had to say brought comfort. It is interesting how PM has changed, such as removing ledge invincibility after 3 ledge grabs. Whatever their plans are for future changes to PM I hope they come true. It seems like PM is becoming more of it's own game than being just a mod like people say. Anyway, I guess it's just good to know that you can voice your opinion and be taken sincerely.
I tend to think that if you aren't engaging in a proper argument with people, you're talking to people that are not really capable or willing to argue properly.

PM is definitively its own stand. Some members of PMDT have expressed that at the end of the day it's still just a mod, but I do think it has taken on a life of its own and has an independent presence, with its own design aims and characters/costumes/stages/etc, and especially so now that various sponsorship and legality issues have forced it to take independence in the competitive scene. I usually don't even remember that it is a mod until people directly ask me about PM, and I don't hear people ever talking about it as "just a mod," so I have a feeling the people you are talking to may just not be that well engrossed in the scene to understand PM's current life.
 

666blaziken

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 26, 2013
Messages
419
Thank you,
I was somewhat worried about being torn apart in the comments, but reading what you had to say brought comfort. It is interesting how PM has changed, such as removing ledge invincibility after 3 ledge grabs. Whatever their plans are for future changes to PM I hope they come true. It seems like PM is becoming more of it's own game than being just a mod like people say. Anyway, I guess it's just good to know that you can voice your opinion and be taken sincerely.
Just curious, Have you played project M since 3.5 came out? Because if you didn't (I have a feeling because you didn't know about the 5 grab ledge limit thing), that could easily explain why you don't like project M. 3.02 was really gimmicky and looking back, a absolutley hate 3.02 (I could write a book on it), and right now, there are still more gimmicks than in melee and the game is easier than melee, but overall the game rewards top players more for good fundamentals and tech skill over using gimmicks, which will be changed more in the future.
 

Little Nemo

The Dream Master
Joined
Oct 18, 2012
Messages
357
Location
Moses Lake, WA
NNID
LockableFaceman
This will be helpful in convincing my Melee elitist and smash 4 elitist friends in picking up this game. Particularly the Melee elitists who state "it's just synthetic Melee"
I started with Project M Demo 2. After beginning to play with people I started playing Melee more and more. I don't even own 3.6.
My point is stop trying to convince them. Unless they haven't even tried it, there's no point in trying to change their mind. They've made their decision. Maybe bring it back up when there's a new version because maybe it fixes what they dislike. I hate Project M and its the game that got me into competitive Smash. It's just not fun. I'd much rather play Melee. Calling it Synthetic Melee is probably the best way to describe it if you want to compare it to Melee. Everything and everyone just seems to auto-combo. You don't really need to work to get good punishes. I think it's just an effect of it being made as a fighting game rather than a party game. It doesn't feel as expressive.
I'm not even a Melee elitist. I play Smash 4 casually and will pick up 64 from time to time. Project M just isn't appealing to me. I've been playing it a long time. I don't mind that people play it, though. It is it's own game. I'm glad to have discovered it. Glad it exists.
 
Last edited:

HalcyonDays

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 3, 2014
Messages
191
Maybe he believes that Project M doesn't display the same level of quality as the standard Smash games. There are a few areas that still need polishing in Project M. Some are willing to overlook those areas and just enjoy the game for what it is, but others would rather play the standard Smash games because they look nicer.
Just out of curiosity, in your opinion, what areas of Project M could use a bit more polishing?

Is it more gameplay-related, maybe aesthetically-related?

Maybe both? Are there any specifics you could provide?
 

StarshipGroove

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 30, 2007
Messages
488
Project M is an unfinished mod, it's really not worth taking seriously in a competitive sense, at least not until the PMDT stops killing the metagame every new iteration. No point to even go to the lab and practice if there's a big chance your main going to be heavily nerfed/changed, because he's toxic/possesses jank moves/is too centralized/not Melee-like enough/to suit Melee better/viva Melee. Speaking of which, the Melee worship that permeates everything PM is really ****ing annoying.
 

Nexus| Taka

Fraudulent Doc Main
Joined
Jan 7, 2010
Messages
162
Location
Union City NJ
Project M is an unfinished mod, it's really not worth taking seriously in a competitive sense, at least not until the PMDT stops killing the metagame every new iteration. No point to even go to the lab and practice if there's a big chance your main going to be heavily nerfed/changed, because he's toxic/possesses jank moves/is too centralized/not Melee-like enough/to suit Melee better/viva Melee. Speaking of which, the Melee worship that permeates everything PM is really ****ing annoying.
you must really hate smash 4, USF4, UMVC3 and other fighting game that receives updates that balance the game.....
 

StarshipGroove

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 30, 2007
Messages
488
you must really hate smash 4, USF4, UMVC3 and other fighting game that receives updates that balance the game.....
Except those games receive balance changes (small ones in smash 4's case), while PM receives complete overhauls of the game mechanics, extreme redesigns of characters and slews of changes "to match melee" .
And to be honest PM's updates don't balance ****.
 

Nexus| Taka

Fraudulent Doc Main
Joined
Jan 7, 2010
Messages
162
Location
Union City NJ
Except those games receive balance changes (small ones in smash 4's case), while PM receives complete overhauls of the game mechanics, extreme redesigns of characters and slews of changes "to match melee" .
And to be honest PM's updates don't balance ****.
What was the last change that you didn't like?
 

Zach777

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 2, 2014
Messages
489
Location
3rd rock from the sun
Project M does tend to favor really unusual or "gimmicky" tactics, or projectiles. However, I don't find any of them as polarizing as, say, Falco's laser pressure. I'm not qualified to comment about Smash4's biases though.

For what it's worth, so that readers are not confused or misled by this post, ledge stalling has been reduced to being less effective in PM than it is in Melee. As of v3.5, I believe 3 ledge grabs in a row without touching ground leaves the grabber without any invulnerability, so ledge stalling becomes a weak option unless you periodically make yourself vulnerable by coming to stage.

I don't know about the comment concerning camping. It could be that characters in Melee that play competitively with lots of items and defensive play (i.e. Link, Bowser, others) have been powered up comparatively in PM, so those playstyles are more prevalent. This is a very valid reason to dislike PM if playing closer range games is your jam.

I'm glad you're happy with a Smash game and that you're honest about your thoughts while being respectful about it. Thanks for the feedback.
Excellent post. I have one correction though. You get five ledge grabs before losing invincibility.
 

EIREXE

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 26, 2015
Messages
183
Modding is a very important part of the videogame industry, specially in competitive titles, both counter strike and DoTA were born in half-life and starcraft, so modding is amazing and it's one of the things that makes gaming so special, being able to do fancy stuff with games is simply an amazing thing.

Modding forged a big chunk of the industry, even commercial "modding" like when the CoD team modified the Quake engine and now still uses it in the latest titles or when Valve modified quake to make Goldsrc and subsequently Source.
 
Last edited:

#HBC | Red Ryu

Red Fox Warrior
Joined
Jun 15, 2008
Messages
27,486
Location
Milwaukee, Wisconsin
NNID
RedRyu_Smash
3DS FC
0344-9312-3352
I'd be lying if I said I liked PM as much as other titles, I get why people pick it and play it.

It's not for me. The game is still in a limbo state of what it wants to be and do.

Is it Melee 2.0 or is it it's own new thing. People tell me one thing or another, I can trust what I see for the game as it presents itself. It feels like it has mixed identity, and the expectations are different.

If you enjoy it, that is fine, I just can't when I end up just disappointed at choices made by the dev team. To the point I gave up at 3.02.

That version along with my PM breaking, something is up with my SD card.

The game improved in future versions, but I still don't want to dedicate to a third smash game. The one I honestly don't have that drive to invest in.

If you like it, keep playing it. It's just not for me.
 
Last edited:

666blaziken

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 26, 2013
Messages
419
Project M is an unfinished mod, it's really not worth taking seriously in a competitive sense, at least not until the PMDT stops killing the metagame every new iteration. No point to even go to the lab and practice if there's a big chance your main going to be heavily nerfed/changed, because he's toxic/possesses jank moves/is too centralized/not Melee-like enough/to suit Melee better/viva Melee. Speaking of which, the Melee worship that permeates everything PM is really ****ing annoying.
Really? Most of the changes between 3.5 into 3.6 were very... very minor, the biggest changes being lucario's nerfs in which it was fair since air dodging out of up b was removed from sonic, rob, g&w, and other characters in earlier patches and it made sense. They already stated that they will eventually make a final release once they feel like they have fixed everything. But yeah, everyone playing the game is a beta tester because the game isn't finished and more people need to understand that and not get so emotional over nerfs and buffs to certain characters.
 

Pippin (Peregrin Took)

Formerly “ItalianBaptist”
Joined
Jan 28, 2014
Messages
949
Switch FC
SW-0542-4021-7641
Modding is a very important part of the videogame industry, specially in competitive titles, both counter strike and DoTA were born in half-life and starcraft, so modding is amazing and it's one of the things that makes gaming so special, being able to do fancy stuff with games is simply an amazing thing.

Modding forged a big chunk of the industry, even commercial "modding" like when the CoD team modified the Quake engine and now still uses it in the latest titles or when Valve modified quake to make Goldsrc and subsequently Source.
Excellent statement on modding. There is one concern I have though about how they got some of the past stages in them.

When perusing through brawl vault I would usually go for texture and model swaps rather than imports because I'm not comfortable with cutting the assets out of one game and pasting them onto another. That seems closer to stealing than me drawing a picture of goku by hand for example.

I know the pmdt was adamant that mewtwo's assets were made completely from scratch, same with Roy I believe, and I really like the hd remakes of the 64 stages. But what about like fountain of dreams or hyrule castle 64. Are they handmade or ripped from the old games?
 

Codaption

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 20, 2015
Messages
743
Location
Floating awaaaay
3DS FC
3454-1643-6973
I gotta say, I like the comments section on this article about as much as the article itself. Aside from a few frayed nerves here and there, it's a lot more orderly than what I'm used to seeing. :)
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
Project M is getting stale. It's time for people to move on.
 

badangadang

Smash Apprentice
Joined
May 30, 2013
Messages
121
Project M is getting stale. It's time for people to move on.
nice b8

I know the pmdt was adamant that mewtwo's assets were made completely from scratch, same with Roy I believe, and I really like the hd remakes of the 64 stages. But what about like fountain of dreams or hyrule castle 64. Are they handmade or ripped from the old games?
It's hard to rip stages from Melee and put them directly in Brawl's environment because iirc Brawl was remade from the ground up, so all the Melee stage data is "outdated" so to speak. I believe stages like FoD are remade close to 1-to-1 in comparison with Melee, but it has to be put together by hand, maybe using things like texture rips or model specifications from Melee. But I'm not a stage designer or Brawl modder, so someone else probably can correct me.
 

EIREXE

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 26, 2015
Messages
183
Excellent statement on modding. There is one concern I have though about how they got some of the past stages in them.

When perusing through brawl vault I would usually go for texture and model swaps rather than imports because I'm not comfortable with cutting the assets out of one game and pasting them onto another. That seems closer to stealing than me drawing a picture of goku by hand for example.

I know the pmdt was adamant that mewtwo's assets were made completely from scratch, same with Roy I believe, and I really like the hd remakes of the 64 stages. But what about like fountain of dreams or hyrule castle 64. Are they handmade or ripped from the old games?
I don't work in project m so I can't answer to do that, maybe anyone here has checked it?
 

HalcyonDays

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 3, 2014
Messages
191
Except those games receive balance changes (small ones in smash 4's case), while PM receives complete overhauls of the game mechanics, extreme redesigns of characters and slews of changes "to match melee" .
And to be honest PM's updates don't balance ****.
Naturally, the iterations of Project M from 3.02 and earlier were moreso designed to have Brawl characters that could fit in viably against the Melee top tiers.

Re-imagining how Brawl characters might function in a Melee-type environment was something that had never been done before, and so the P:M community was (and still is) essentially a large-scale beta testing program.

3.5 cut out a lot of the jank, and 3.6 added even more cuts, causing players to rely more on their fundamentals rather than just their character.

In order for PMDT to refine their game as much as possible, they needed to take risks, find out what doesn't work, what sort of works, and what does work but could use slight adjustments.

Recent updates have reflected that they realise this, especially since the changes between characters as of 3.5 to 3.6 have had no large overhauls of character designs, aside from things like Olimar's Up-B, and Ice Climber AI problems, which really needed to be addressed.

From this point on, character moveset designs are most likely solidified, so we won't be getting huge overhauls anymore. Balance tweaks will probably be more similar to Smash 4 from this point on.

As far as "matching melee" goes, the fact that they even decided to 'nerf Fox' kind of goes against that statement, and shows they aren't afraid of nerfing even Melee top tiers to achieve balance, if need be.

A lot of the statements you made would've been true in the past, but I can't say the same regarding the most recent versions of Project M. The game is starting to become more refined as they gather more data.
 
Last edited:

StarshipGroove

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 30, 2007
Messages
488
What was the last change that you didn't like?
It doesn't really matter, because it's the sheer amount of changes that is problem. As for changes I don't like, Dedede's nerfs and the change to the meteor cancel window to match Melee.

As far as "matching melee" goes, the fact that they even decided to 'nerf Fox' kind of goes against that statement, and shows they aren't afraid of nerfing even Melee top tiers to achieve balance, if need be.
This again?
Melee is not just Fox. Fox has gotten small nerfs but everything else is being changed to sound like Melee, feel like Melee, and match Melee. Is this project's goal to be Melee + new characters or something different?
 
Last edited:
Top Bottom