Mii Fighter: Competitive Scene Implications

[ScottyWK]

So more info still needs to come out to know specifically how the customization will work for the 3 different Mii Fighters. But based off of what we know, it sure feels like the Miis are going to be banned from tournaments and the competitive scene. Even if you know which Mii Fighter your opponent selects, you are completely unaware of which special moves they have chosen. This gives the Mii an inherent advantage at the start of the match, as you are not able to predict what moves they will come at you with.

Thoughts? I suppose if a general "default" moveset was accepted amongst the competitive community, the Mii Fighters could be accepted at tournaments.

 

[TheZapp]

For tournaments, they will be banned for sure, but I am curious to know if they will be banned in for Glory mode online because as you said, the move set will be unpredictable

 

[ScottyWK]

For tournaments, they will be banned for sure, but I am curious to know if they will be banned in for Glory mode online because as you said, the move set will be unpredictable

For Glory being over-run by Mii Fighters would be severely tarnished if they are allowable there.

 

[Deleted member 245254]

Why does unpredictability go hand-in-hand with being unfair?

Why can't that just be an inherent *benefit* to playing as a mii instead of an unfair advantage?

I don't see an issue at all with the move set not being 100% downloaded before you even see your opponent move.

 

[TheZapp]

For Glory being over-run by Mii Fighters would be severely tarnished if they are allowable there.

Yea, I highly doubt they will be available in for glory unless, as you said, they make a default move set

 

[Substitution]

By the looks of it. No.
Mind you, the classes are characters in of themselves. If they were, then they wouldn't have announced custom movesets for the "custom movesets".
Sure, they'll have some dominance in the casual metagame. They're Miis, after all. But one thing that Sakurai did right was not make them possessive. One problem I worried about is if they were gonna take movesets from other characters. Which could've made them broken by just picking the best attacks from every character. And made them even bigger online (90% Miis, 10% everyone else).
Thankfully, that doesn't seem to be the case. The seem to have a moveset designed specifically for them. They don't take any from others (at least, not to a plagarizing level) So they're just like every other character. Only it's your Mii.

In other words, we'll have to iron out a few bugs. But they'll be okay for the competitive field.

 

[Raetah]

As i said, the correct way to act with Miis is creating a list of allowed combinations of Miis for tournaments...

 

[Substitution]

Why does unpredictability go hand-in-hand with being unfair?

Why can't that just be an inherent *benefit* to playing as a mii instead of an unfair advantage?

I don't see an issue at all with the move set not being 100% downloaded before you even see your opponent move.

The funny thing is that most if not all characters are also getting the ability to have custom movesets.

 

[Deleted member 245254]

Guys...wait to play them/as them before calling ban.

Jumping the gun is a fault all too often tread by the Smash community.

 

[ScottyWK]

Why does unpredictability go hand-in-hand with being unfair?

Why can't that just be an inherent *benefit* to playing as a mii instead of an unfair advantage?

I don't see an issue at all with the move set not being 100% downloaded before you even see your opponent move.

When you square up vs a Mii Brawler, you have no idea what special moves they have set to their character. When you square up against Mario, you know exactly what moves they have.

It would be like allowing the custom movesets shown from the April direct into tournaments. You don't know which Mario fireball you'll get.

 

[Deleted member 245254]

When you square up vs a Mii Brawler, you have no idea what special moves they have set to their character. When you square up against Mario, you know exactly what moves they have.

It would be like allowing the custom movesets shown from the April direct into tournaments. You don't know which Mario fireball you'll get.

You might as well ban different play styles then too, because going up against anyone is never the same as another.

Seriously, your reasoning is preposterous.

 

[LiteralGrill]

As i said, the correct way to act with Miis is creating a list of allowed combinations of Miis for tournaments...

We can't be Smogon. Seriously, allowing some moves and not others would be ridiculous, cause tons of fighting, and would be insane.

More then likely, we'll also know what custom moves each fighter has, it would be part of the character picking process. if not, it'll be like a blind pick.

 

[Jellyfish4102]

I'm guessing the Mii player will have to pick their moves before the match so surprise isn't an issue. As for lack of familiarity with the multitude of moves, it might be an issue at first but competitive players will eventually memorize all the moves anyway. As for broken combinations, only time will tell if that's an issue.

 

[LancerStaff]

It's just a few different specials. And really, if there ARE four outright best moves, how OP can they be? I'd wager not much. If anything, Sakurai would of made them slightly weaker overall in preparation of the 'best' set not being discovered by the team.

This is completely different from custom moves, which aren't allowed online at all.

 

[Radical Larry]

If Meta Knight isn't banned currently, Miis cannot be banned, plain and simple.
I agree with @Zipzo by the fact that you have to play the character before ruling out their possibilities of tournament legality. Who knows, they might not be as "broken" as one thinks.

 

[Deleted member]

miis won't be banned.

 

[TheZapp]

I'm guessing the Mii player will have to pick their moves before the match so surprise isn't an issue. As for lack of familiarity with the multitude of moves, it might be an issue at first but competitive players will eventually memorize all the moves anyway. As for broken combinations, only time will tell if that's an issue.

Yea, I cry imagining the OP combinations that could be possible

 

[Malcolm Belmont]

I don't think you will be able to customize them..but i do think they will be viable for competetive

 

[Dott]

I'm seeing a possibly brawl Meta Knight thread 2.0

 

[wafflini]

Wouldn't it be hilarious if mii's ended up having chain grabs?

 

[Deleted member 245254]

Pretty sure there's no cause for alarm here. You will eventually memorize all iterations of the move set and will be able to immediately adapt on the fly against a person playing a Mii.

 

[TheZapp]

Here are the move set combos:

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

If you've played other fighters, you should be well familiar with these kind of systems. CvS2 grooves, MvC2/3 assist choices, SF4 ultra choice, etc.. Heck, this is fundamentally like picking your lead Pokemon in Brawl as the Pokemon Trainer. We'll handle this the same as all of those games. You can pick whatever moves you want (and it will be known to your opponent before the match starts), and the game will sort itself out.

 

[guedes the brawler]

i think those moves wee form custom movesets just like the ones we saw in the previous direct.

 

[Leonyx]

Guys, there are competitive fighting games that are being played today where you can customize your moveset somewhat. Even Street Fighter allows you to pick between two different Ultras (or Supers, I can't remember). Customizing a moveset is not a reason to ban a character.

Now if the Mii Fighter size wasn't consistent, that would be a problem.

 

[LancerStaff]

Here are the move set combos:

Unless the shotput has some crazy priority or something, they're all pretty bland. They're just... Moves. No projectiles with interesting properties, no warping, not alot of movement. It almost looks like a visual choice. Brawler probs won't be OP.

 

[RelaxAlax]

They'll be fine and need no special treatment.

I believe it'll just be a benefit you'll have over your opponent that they'll need to adapt to quickly. Note that only special are changed. It's kind of like Me playing Olimar in PM. You know your next Pikmin but your opponent most likely doesn't, or can't keep up, so they have to ADAPT. I feel it's okay they have this kind of gimmick, it can be their THING. It doesn't inherently make them broken, and it seems all the customization's are vanilla and not big game changers.

So I think the consensus will come to letting players play as they want. Besides, if people find a more efficient move pool for the Mii everyone will adopt it. And in tourneys I believe a rule could be made that you should share what customization's you've made to your Mii.

 

[Signia]

The hidden information of the movesets won't be a big deal. After you see their moves once, you'll know what to expect.

The real problem is how it'll play out at tournaments. How long it will take to create the character is the issue. In the Soul Calibur 5 community, they banned Soul of Devil Jin in tournaments in everywhere but Japan because it would require creation of a custom character with no possible non-arbitrary standard for character size and costume. Honestly I think they could have just picked a standard and rolled with it.

But TOs in Smash definitely aren't going have every combination of Mii fighter premade on their WiiU labeled and ready, so the only option is to have Mii Fighter mains create it before their tournament match. If that takes too much time, it won't be feasible in a tournament setting. The same goes for custom moves.

What could end up happening is that the metagame finds a few popular Mii movesets, declares them the only tournament viable ones, and WiiU owners will just have them ready to go.

 

[Ulevo]

Why does unpredictability go hand-in-hand with being unfair?

Why can't that just be an inherent *benefit* to playing as a mii instead of an unfair advantage?

I don't see an issue at all with the move set not being 100% downloaded before you even see your opponent move.

Because match up knowledge and knowledge of in game interaction within a fighting game context is what is tested in competitive play. You basically undermine this when a single character can have bajillion different movesets. Even more so if you as a player don't know what those moves are and have to discover them as you fight, which may or may not be the case.

I am not going to speak up about this until we know more for sure, but they will most likely not be allowed in tournament play.

Guys, there are competitive fighting games that are being played today where you can customize your moveset somewhat. Even Street Fighter allows you to pick between two different Ultras (or Supers, I can't remember). Customizing a moveset is not a reason to ban a character.

Now if the Mii Fighter size wasn't consistent, that would be a problem.

This is not the same. Ultras are limited by a meter, are limited in use, and are limited to only two per character. You also are privy to which one they chose before the match even begins. Not only are there no limitations of how many times you can use these moves, but I they might not be easily conveyed to the player.

The main problem with this is that it undermines matchup knowledge and character information, and mastery of characters in their organic state. It isn't just a matter of learning what the moves do. Just because I know what Meta Knights Uair does, and know what Kirby's Fair does, it doesn't mean that I will know the implications of what would happen if I were to put those two same moves on to a single character, or that I would know how to properly play against or address that.

 

[Ginger Hail]

I could easily see the community adopt one of the default Miis that come on every system as the base for the character. There's still the matter of the custom movesets, but they could always just go with the defaults for each slot.

 

[GreenPhysco]

Probably Torunament rules will be only yourself as a mii and the default moveset only

 

[AdaptiveTrigger]

I wouldn't think they would require a ban at all...Although there are options for Miis to select from, it looks like a Mii's moveset will still be somewhat predictable. The Brawler Mii, for example, looks like he has no projectiles and is a purely up close fighter. The Gunner Mii will obviously have more focus on ranged attacks (countered by characters with reflectors). The Sword Fighter Mii looks like a spacing character with less range than Marth but with a few projectiles to work with.

Mii characters will be able to select 4 from 12 different special moves. 12 special moves is essentially 3 different characters. Pokémon Trainer wasn't banned in Brawl so I don't see much reasoning behind banning Mii characters. Given, Pokémon didn't have unique Down B specials, but each Pokémon had unique normal moves when Miis appear to have a static set of normal moves.

 

[LancerStaff]

Because match up knowledge and knowledge of in game interaction within a fighting game context is what is tested in competitive play. You basically undermine this when a single character can have bajillion different movesets. Even more so if you as a player don't know what those moves are and have to discover them as you fight, which may or may not be the case.

I am not going to speak up about this until we know more for sure, but they will most likely not be allowed in tournament play.



This is not the same. Ultras are limited by a meter, are limited in use, and are limited to only two per character. You also are privy to which one they chose before the match even begins. Not only are there no limitations of how many times you can use these moves, but I they might not be easily conveyed to the player.

The main problem with this is that it undermines matchup knowledge and character information, and mastery of characters in their organic state. It isn't just a matter of learning what the moves do. Just because I know what Meta Knights Uair does, and know what Kirby's Fair does, it doesn't mean that I will know the implications of what would happen if I were to put those two same moves on to a single character, or that I would know how to properly play against or address that.

Again, the choices are kinda bland. There's a few unique ones, (shotput for brawler, counter for swordsman) but they're mostly just generic moves.

 

[Ulevo]

Again, the choices are kinda bland. There's a few unique ones, (shotput for brawler, counter for swordsman) but they're mostly just generic moves.

And how do you know these are just generic moves? Mario and Doctor Mario's bairs work very differently despite looking the exact same on appearance. Jigglypuffs bair looks harmless but has a hitbox that extends way beyond what is visually apparent. How do we know these moves won't have odd hitbox interactions? You can't judge anything based on what you see until you confirm the frame data, damage %, knock back values, hit box sizes, properties, and durations for these moves.

 

[slicesabre]

First character in smash history to be banned from play.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Let's just ban the character before even playing!

How about we wait and test it out instead of making wild guesses and assumptions?

 

[Ulevo]

Let's just ban the character before even playing!

How about we wait and test it out instead of making wild guesses and assumptions?

There's nothing wrong with making assumptions, so long as you don't act on those assumptions. Which no one is.

 

[RascalTheCharizard]

It would be like allowing the custom movesets shown from the April direct into tournaments. You don't know which Mario fireball you'll get.

Yeah but at the end of the day, Mario still has a Fireball and you'll know which type after just one use. These moves, on the other hand, look incredibly different to one another and will likely function differently as well.

First character in smash history to be banned from play.

Meta Knight was banned for a brief period of time.

 

[LiteralGrill]

There's nothing wrong with making assumptions, so long as you don't act on those assumptions. Which no one is.

While this is true, it's not how it will happen. Assumptions have had tons of stages banned in the past for no reason, I don't trust people to not do it again. It's not in the nature of our community.

The stance should always be only ban something if it's proven banworthy and nothing more.

 

[Ulevo]

While this is true, it's not how it will happen. Assumptions have had tons of stages banned in the past for no reason, I don't trust people to not do it again. It's not in the nature of our community.

The stance should always be only ban something if it's proven banworthy and nothing more.

Except this isn't the case. Maybe you perceive it that way because you disagree with the rulings that have taken place, but that's not the reality. Just because there's a small minority of forum goers that assume the reasons for a stage being ruled illegal doesn't mean that the rest of the community hasn't played the stage and already come to a consensus on it.

I mean I'm not saying that people can't be sheep, but I think you're exaggerating in this particular instance.