Yup, people are learning the matchup...and realizing that they're wasting they're time by not using MK...
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Meta Knight's Revenge: The Official Match-Up Thread *Wario* -> GO
- Thread starter OverLade
- Start date
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theunabletable
Smash Lord
I'd be willing to make a new MK matchup thread. I need help with a TON of matchups anyways, and have a lot of free time, so I think I might be able to maintain a new matchup thread (which I know a lot of people think we should do, since this one is kinda outdated and really unorganized).
I totally would, because I enjoy Meta Knight as a character and Brawl as a game (despite its flaws, lol). I'm very interested in this character's matchups and would keep a thread going well. Also, I know what NOT to do on matchup thread so I can make it as accurate and organized as possible.
I'd like you to help me if you know what you're doing. Also, do I need this approved or something...?
Funny.
But I'm serious. Not using MK will actually get them somewhere AGAINST Meta Knight.
Who somewhere?
You mean the 4 or 5 players who have managed to beat a top MK more than once or twice?
QUIVO
Smash Master
They're not cocky MK mains, they just know the character is THAT good
yeah it's not cockiness, I'm not saying I'll beat anyone who doesn't play MK or anything, lots of players better than me. I just acknowledge that I have the character advantage over them and that playing MK is simpler than playing someone like snake or diddy.
TheLastCacely
Smash Hero
- Joined
- Apr 10, 2009
- Messages
- 6,937
how do u keep lighter char (kirby,mk, ness, lucas) in the nado? like if i approach with nado or dair camp to nado, alot of times they just pop up after maybe 2dmg is dealt.
phi1ny3
Not the Mama
lulz late night johns.
edit: As for the light characters, the trick isn't to get them into the startup of the move iirc. You bait them into doing something then rev it up. Then again that applies to a lot of characters.
whoa, apparently someone says MK has a disadvantaged MU, eh?
smasher01
Smash Ace
drift left or right. sides of tornado > center of tornado
not mashing B can help too or dont use it at all if they keep punishing it.
phi1ny3
Not the Mama
^That's true too.
*Moved to this thread for more relevance*
"I spent a bit of time teaching Jason a few things about how to safely tornado Diddy. I also played a friendly set with ADHD. I also recently 2-0'd Gnes in tourney last month.
What you want to do it powershield the banana when he throws it at you and then tornado when it bounces off your shield instead of catching it. If diddy isnt holding a banana, this is almost completely nonpunishable. If he shields the tornado you can retreat either back to the other side of the banana or the other side of Diddy (any smart diddy will run and grab the banana instead of punishing nados lagless landing). If you land behind the banana, he has to dash attack to pick it up and by then you already have options to attack him again. If you tornado him (you must nado over the bananas regular tradjectory ) his shield will already be small from the first nado and you will get a guaranteed poke. This strategy by itself ***** diddy really hard. You can also use tornado to keep diddy off the edge. He should absolutely never be able to safely get back on the ledge unless he's holding a banana. Tornado beats everything if you space it right, get up attack, ledgeroll, ledgejump, and side B. You can also tornado at Diddy when you're holding a banana. If you do it right he can't safely try and chase your landing lag.
Luckily diddy isnt completely helpless (I also played Jason with Diddy and used what I know from playing against Diddy against him). Rolling around tornado is the best way to safely get back to your banana. MK will still have good options and he doesnt have to tornado immediately once he realizes what you realize, but as far as mix up he can avoid taking damage, regain his banana, and reset the stage.
As far as actually throwing the banana never throw it back at him. Either throw it straight up or backwards towards the far side of the stage. Against Wyatt I would wait for him to jump to produce another banana, then glide toss toward him while throwing it upwards and capitalize on him being in the air (tornado beats the majority of his air game and if you bair fairs you get huge punishes).
Imo it's 50-50 if Diddy is holding a banana and 60-40 if he isnt, possibly worse. I beat him 2-1, though I have to attribute a lot of it to gimps. He also SD'd once which is why the matches werent close when I won"
"I spent a bit of time teaching Jason a few things about how to safely tornado Diddy. I also played a friendly set with ADHD. I also recently 2-0'd Gnes in tourney last month.
What you want to do it powershield the banana when he throws it at you and then tornado when it bounces off your shield instead of catching it. If diddy isnt holding a banana, this is almost completely nonpunishable. If he shields the tornado you can retreat either back to the other side of the banana or the other side of Diddy (any smart diddy will run and grab the banana instead of punishing nados lagless landing). If you land behind the banana, he has to dash attack to pick it up and by then you already have options to attack him again. If you tornado him (you must nado over the bananas regular tradjectory ) his shield will already be small from the first nado and you will get a guaranteed poke. This strategy by itself ***** diddy really hard. You can also use tornado to keep diddy off the edge. He should absolutely never be able to safely get back on the ledge unless he's holding a banana. Tornado beats everything if you space it right, get up attack, ledgeroll, ledgejump, and side B. You can also tornado at Diddy when you're holding a banana. If you do it right he can't safely try and chase your landing lag.
Luckily diddy isnt completely helpless (I also played Jason with Diddy and used what I know from playing against Diddy against him). Rolling around tornado is the best way to safely get back to your banana. MK will still have good options and he doesnt have to tornado immediately once he realizes what you realize, but as far as mix up he can avoid taking damage, regain his banana, and reset the stage.
As far as actually throwing the banana never throw it back at him. Either throw it straight up or backwards towards the far side of the stage. Against Wyatt I would wait for him to jump to produce another banana, then glide toss toward him while throwing it upwards and capitalize on him being in the air (tornado beats the majority of his air game and if you bair fairs you get huge punishes).
Imo it's 50-50 if Diddy is holding a banana and 60-40 if he isnt, possibly worse. I beat him 2-1, though I have to attribute a lot of it to gimps. He also SD'd once which is why the matches werent close when I won"
smasher01
Smash Ace
Dont throw them off stage use them to your advantage.
When it's onstage and away from Diddy, Diddy will either have to go out of its way to get the banana or do without that banana for the remainder of its lifetime. Either way leaves Diddy with reduced Diddy's options.
Vionce
Smash Journeyman
There really isn't any set rule, but I wouldn't always throw offstage since then all Diddy has to do is pull it out again.
Toronto Joe
Smash Master
i forgot to ask this...ally told me him and m2k think that landing with dimensional cape is super super good in mk dittos,i dont know how to test stuff out but while playing him it was effective vs me,now it could be that im just really stupid and ally enjoys messing with my head LOL but im just seeing if anyone else does this
It's not bad ASSUMING that the other MK is gonna be airborne for a bit. Like MK on the ground, it's much much more risky to try and DC back anywhere. MK in the air, say he's like at his peak on a full hop as you start to disappear, that is extremely safe for the most part if you aim it carefully.
Toronto Joe
Smash Master
alright thanks bruh
TheLastCacely
Smash Hero
- Joined
- Apr 10, 2009
- Messages
- 6,937
I need alittle help fighting snake. the snakes in my state are getting better and it seems impossible to approach if they have a nade(they always have nades). if u run grab, they out range u by grabbing instead. or they side step and tilt u as a punish. I then try grounded shuttle loop, but they grab me. Whats the best way to approach?
Max Ketchum
Collegiate Starleague Smash Director
Approach Snake without actually hitting him. Go just outside of his grab range. He can't do anything besides shield, spot dodge, roll, grab, or toss the grenade when he's holding it.
TheLastCacely
Smash Hero
- Joined
- Apr 10, 2009
- Messages
- 6,937
what are the more safer moves or pressuring moves to use right outside of snakes grab range?
Kaffei
Smash Hero
- Joined
- Feb 8, 2008
- Messages
- 7,048
Watch Seibrik vs Nick Riddle.
What I've gathered about the matchup...is don't jump. Don't chase with Uair. Just walk around and use your shield/Utilt/Grab/Ftilt.
Max Ketchum
Collegiate Starleague Smash Director
Actually, chasing with uair is fine. You have to be precise and patient with it and follow her very carefully, but it generally ends up being extremely rewarding with the only risk being like 10% or whatever from her dair.
What you SHOULDN'T do is chase her with up Bs. The only time you should up B ZSS is when you KNOW it's going to hit, aka you baited her air dodge. Poke at her shield with dtilt and ftilt, but use them in the least laggy way possible. As slow as her grab may be, it's super long and she can shieldgrab your tilts if you do them in a manner that leaves a lot of frames open.
Since the only option she has is grab, she may roll away/behind or spot dodge. Punish accordingly. I like nair or dsmash for rolling behind, tornado for rolling behind and spot dodge, and dash attack/grab/fair for rolling away. Since you're kinda new, just know that you shouldn't have to react to the roll or dodge, but you should be able to guess when your opponent does it and preemptively input your punish. Also, she can grab your fair on block, or just pivot grab it if she predicts it.
Powershield side B and dsmash. If you want to win this matchup, you absolutely need to have these timings down, otherwise she's just going to ruin your shield and do all kinds of gay ZSS stuff. If you powershield side B, punish with a dash grab or dash attack. For dsmash, use dash grab, fair, up B, or dsmash. If you don't powershield, ZSS can shield/dodge/roll/jab before you can punish her.
Lots of ZSS players like to charge a paralyzer shot as you run forward and bait you to shield, then grab you right after. As MK, you have a ton of ways to avoid this. Jump out of your shield after the paralyzer hits you, roll backwards/spot dodge (time these well though, otherwise the lingering hitbox on the grab can snag you), or roll behind ZSS. You could also up B if you want, but make sure it's when ZSS is right near you and preparing to grab, otherwise she can react to this and up air you.
Something else very important is not to grounded up B very liberally. ZSS is fantastic at punishing this with uair and even bair. You can clash it with glide attack, but if you're not close to the ground, she can get another aerial out and hit you. Fair also straight up beats glide attack (first hit will clash, second hit will hit MK), but it's pretty difficult to get it out due to the small hitbox. Gliding at ZSS in general is a bad idea, if you don't grab the ledge from very low while recovering she can dsmash you which leads to a down B or bair into the stage (or just a killing side B/bair if they think you'll tech and you're at kill percents). Side B also ***** glides.
If ZSS is jabbing you, hold shield. Her jab doesn't actually combo into itself, and even though the full 3-hit jab has low lag, you can still shield the third hit and punish her with something. Her dtilt is extremely good and starts combos. Up tilt is super quick with a really gay hitbox, and is one of her best punishes if MK does something dumb on her shield such as ending the tornado near it. Make sure you end your tornado just slightly away from ZSS (out of up tilt, grab, and dash attack range) and always do the autocanceled landing. You'll probably end up getting punished if she blocks the full tornado, but if it isn't close to her, you can probably escape in time.
Edgeguarding ZSS is harder than people think at first, but also pretty **** easy at the same time. Generally she'll either use up B or an up air at the same time as her second jump if she's recovering low, then down B and/or tether to the edge. Her up air beats your dair handily, so just avoid her as she wastes her jump. Then it's all about the NAIR JORDAN, baby. Nair her all day and the weak hit will knock her out of her jump easily, and can also hit her down B before the kick comes out. Once you hit her out of down B, she can't use it again. Once down B and her jump are both gone, grab the edge and ZSS loses a stock. Also, if she down Bs and the apex of her jump is right on MK's head as you edgehog her, she can do a footstool and bounce onto the stage. Don't think you're entirely safe when she's close. Also, DON'T ***** OUT AND LET GO OF THE EDGE! Yes, up B can drag you down, but you're ****ing MK. You won't die from it.
If she's recovering high, keep refreshing the edge and wait for her to come near you, or jump up with some up airs or fairs. Sometimes they'll try to side B you as you chase her up high, just go under this and punish it with an aerial of your choice. Basically, the point is to force her to recover low or just kill her off the top/sides with an up air/nair. If you bait her air dodge, smack her with an up B. Gimping her from up high is significantly harder from down low, but it also leaves her with the difficulty of landing. Catch her landing with an up tilt or a tornado, or a grab if you so please.
On the edge, ZSS has a few tricks, but isn't anything to be feared. She can do huge ranged side B from the edge and either land onstage or refresh the edge. She can pseudo-plank with her down B, or fire paralyzer shots pretty safely. If you aren't super close to ZSS, don't bother trying to punish the side B, instead just shield it and get closer. If you're right in her face, or a smaller distance from the ledge, she's not going to side B. Tornado beats paralyzer shots and any ledgehop aerials she'll try. Ignore her planking, if you edgehog her she'll just footstool you. You can TRY dairing or nairing her, but I've never experimented with this and I'm not sure if she's vulnerable long enough.
ZSS'S LEDGE ATTACK ABOVE 100% IS SUPER GAY. Probably the gayest move in the game. It's SUPER long range (moreso than any of MK's grounded moves) and virtually unpunishable if you don't powershield. It also beats tornado since it does 10 damage. Just stand outside of the range of this move and wait for her next action, if you're not confident that you can powershield it consistently then don't bother trying to punish it.
She's got some dumb **** on MK once MK is in the air. Her up air is crazy good and will beat your dair head on. If you air dodge, she can uair again or bair you in the face. She can also do cool traps with up B that will either drag you down into a free hit (tech this if she tries it) or force you to air dodge, putting you in a bad position. Side B can also hit you out of the air if you're not careful, but it's telegraphed. The best way to avoid her juggles is to use your jumps to escape her as she chases you and then land as quickly as you can (or get near the ground and tornado, down B, grab the edge, etc.). Fast fall air dodge through her uair into your own uair strings or a nair work well.
While you're on the edge, she's going to try dumb **** like down smashing you or side Bing you. Just don't be predictable with your returns to the edge and you should be fine. Tornado loses to both of these things if you space poorly, and so does edge hop air dodge. The best way to get back is to move below and away from the edge (both side B and dsmash can't hit you here) and then either jump or tornado back carefully.
What you SHOULDN'T do is chase her with up Bs. The only time you should up B ZSS is when you KNOW it's going to hit, aka you baited her air dodge. Poke at her shield with dtilt and ftilt, but use them in the least laggy way possible. As slow as her grab may be, it's super long and she can shieldgrab your tilts if you do them in a manner that leaves a lot of frames open.
Since the only option she has is grab, she may roll away/behind or spot dodge. Punish accordingly. I like nair or dsmash for rolling behind, tornado for rolling behind and spot dodge, and dash attack/grab/fair for rolling away. Since you're kinda new, just know that you shouldn't have to react to the roll or dodge, but you should be able to guess when your opponent does it and preemptively input your punish. Also, she can grab your fair on block, or just pivot grab it if she predicts it.
Powershield side B and dsmash. If you want to win this matchup, you absolutely need to have these timings down, otherwise she's just going to ruin your shield and do all kinds of gay ZSS stuff. If you powershield side B, punish with a dash grab or dash attack. For dsmash, use dash grab, fair, up B, or dsmash. If you don't powershield, ZSS can shield/dodge/roll/jab before you can punish her.
Lots of ZSS players like to charge a paralyzer shot as you run forward and bait you to shield, then grab you right after. As MK, you have a ton of ways to avoid this. Jump out of your shield after the paralyzer hits you, roll backwards/spot dodge (time these well though, otherwise the lingering hitbox on the grab can snag you), or roll behind ZSS. You could also up B if you want, but make sure it's when ZSS is right near you and preparing to grab, otherwise she can react to this and up air you.
Something else very important is not to grounded up B very liberally. ZSS is fantastic at punishing this with uair and even bair. You can clash it with glide attack, but if you're not close to the ground, she can get another aerial out and hit you. Fair also straight up beats glide attack (first hit will clash, second hit will hit MK), but it's pretty difficult to get it out due to the small hitbox. Gliding at ZSS in general is a bad idea, if you don't grab the ledge from very low while recovering she can dsmash you which leads to a down B or bair into the stage (or just a killing side B/bair if they think you'll tech and you're at kill percents). Side B also ***** glides.
If ZSS is jabbing you, hold shield. Her jab doesn't actually combo into itself, and even though the full 3-hit jab has low lag, you can still shield the third hit and punish her with something. Her dtilt is extremely good and starts combos. Up tilt is super quick with a really gay hitbox, and is one of her best punishes if MK does something dumb on her shield such as ending the tornado near it. Make sure you end your tornado just slightly away from ZSS (out of up tilt, grab, and dash attack range) and always do the autocanceled landing. You'll probably end up getting punished if she blocks the full tornado, but if it isn't close to her, you can probably escape in time.
Edgeguarding ZSS is harder than people think at first, but also pretty **** easy at the same time. Generally she'll either use up B or an up air at the same time as her second jump if she's recovering low, then down B and/or tether to the edge. Her up air beats your dair handily, so just avoid her as she wastes her jump. Then it's all about the NAIR JORDAN, baby. Nair her all day and the weak hit will knock her out of her jump easily, and can also hit her down B before the kick comes out. Once you hit her out of down B, she can't use it again. Once down B and her jump are both gone, grab the edge and ZSS loses a stock. Also, if she down Bs and the apex of her jump is right on MK's head as you edgehog her, she can do a footstool and bounce onto the stage. Don't think you're entirely safe when she's close. Also, DON'T ***** OUT AND LET GO OF THE EDGE! Yes, up B can drag you down, but you're ****ing MK. You won't die from it.
If she's recovering high, keep refreshing the edge and wait for her to come near you, or jump up with some up airs or fairs. Sometimes they'll try to side B you as you chase her up high, just go under this and punish it with an aerial of your choice. Basically, the point is to force her to recover low or just kill her off the top/sides with an up air/nair. If you bait her air dodge, smack her with an up B. Gimping her from up high is significantly harder from down low, but it also leaves her with the difficulty of landing. Catch her landing with an up tilt or a tornado, or a grab if you so please.
On the edge, ZSS has a few tricks, but isn't anything to be feared. She can do huge ranged side B from the edge and either land onstage or refresh the edge. She can pseudo-plank with her down B, or fire paralyzer shots pretty safely. If you aren't super close to ZSS, don't bother trying to punish the side B, instead just shield it and get closer. If you're right in her face, or a smaller distance from the ledge, she's not going to side B. Tornado beats paralyzer shots and any ledgehop aerials she'll try. Ignore her planking, if you edgehog her she'll just footstool you. You can TRY dairing or nairing her, but I've never experimented with this and I'm not sure if she's vulnerable long enough.
ZSS'S LEDGE ATTACK ABOVE 100% IS SUPER GAY. Probably the gayest move in the game. It's SUPER long range (moreso than any of MK's grounded moves) and virtually unpunishable if you don't powershield. It also beats tornado since it does 10 damage. Just stand outside of the range of this move and wait for her next action, if you're not confident that you can powershield it consistently then don't bother trying to punish it.
She's got some dumb **** on MK once MK is in the air. Her up air is crazy good and will beat your dair head on. If you air dodge, she can uair again or bair you in the face. She can also do cool traps with up B that will either drag you down into a free hit (tech this if she tries it) or force you to air dodge, putting you in a bad position. Side B can also hit you out of the air if you're not careful, but it's telegraphed. The best way to avoid her juggles is to use your jumps to escape her as she chases you and then land as quickly as you can (or get near the ground and tornado, down B, grab the edge, etc.). Fast fall air dodge through her uair into your own uair strings or a nair work well.
While you're on the edge, she's going to try dumb **** like down smashing you or side Bing you. Just don't be predictable with your returns to the edge and you should be fine. Tornado loses to both of these things if you space poorly, and so does edge hop air dodge. The best way to get back is to move below and away from the edge (both side B and dsmash can't hit you here) and then either jump or tornado back carefully.
ksizl4life
Smash Hero
tornado's bad vs zss. take it from me.
Max Ketchum
Collegiate Starleague Smash Director
Building on what ksizzle said--
Approaching with tornado will get you ***** by her. Using it to catch her landing is good. Just be careful with it. NickRiddle breaks out of tornado instantly and punishes every time, but nobody else really can do this consistently yet. You can also punish her landing with grabs if you don't mess the timing up.
Approaching with tornado will get you ***** by her. Using it to catch her landing is good. Just be careful with it. NickRiddle breaks out of tornado instantly and punishes every time, but nobody else really can do this consistently yet. You can also punish her landing with grabs if you don't mess the timing up.
Bobby Emerald
Smash Apprentice
Very helpful, I'll be saving this...
I've never played a great ZSS player, to be honest. :s
Max Ketchum
Collegiate Starleague Smash Director
It's not a wall.
It's a fence. There are holes in it.
It's a fence. There are holes in it.
Yes. Meta Knight's Up-B (and, depending on the spacing, several other moves like Dtilt/Ftilt/etc.) beats G&W's Nair and Meta Knight gets a free hit on G&W if he hogs the ledge and G&W uses Up-B onto the stage (this shouldn't happen often if the G&W is good, but it's still something there).
I'm not sure why G&W would have the lead to be able to plank unless this is for doubles. If it's in singles, then G&W can't safely stall his planking nearly as well as Meta Knight can and will pass the MLG ledge grab rule after several minutes.
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