Q&A Meta Knight: Questions & Answers Thread (Don't make or reply to new threads just asking questions)

[Sodo]

-previous post-

Thanks for the information. I'll practice a little more on computers before going back into FG. It sounds like, from what you've said in previous posts, that nado is one of the best options for MK all-around? I know SL is a good killing tool but nado seems to have more practical applications.

 

[Rehnquist]

Thanks for the information. I'll practice a little more on computers before going back into FG. It sounds like, from what you've said in previous posts, that nado is one of the best options for MK all-around? I know SL is a good killing tool but nado seems to have more practical applications.

Nado has its place and limitations as well, but for what it is, its a good move to use in prediction, punish, or shield poke. I emphasis nado because those new to meta knight usually under use it. The majority of the people on for glory will not be experienced enough counter/punish it properly.

 

[Triburos]

Speaking of the nado, am I the only one getting really inconsistant results with the number of hits it generates as well as getting height?

Mashing the B button seems to turn out random hit numbers as well as inconsistant height gain off of the nado, making it difficult to poke someone's head outta their shield, because I just can't rise high enough sometimes, and I've no clue why.

What's also strange is that speed of the mashing doesn't seem to be as important as timing, because I quite often get more / max hits by just leisurely pressing the B button rather than mashing. Which is good, but it shows how weird the programming is on the hits. Mashing often generates less hits over-all for me.

Anyone got any insight on just how to control the nado better?

 

[Lavani]

I've been wondering about that too. If I mash as fast as I possibly can, I get 18%. If I slow down, I get 21%. I guess it isn't necessarily a big deal, but I'm interested in knowing the mechanics behind it.

 

[Rehnquist]

Speaking of the nado, am I the only one getting really inconsistant results with the number of hits it generates as well as getting height?

Mashing the B button seems to turn out random hit numbers as well as inconsistant height gain off of the nado, making it difficult to poke someone's head outta their shield, because I just can't rise high enough sometimes, and I've no clue why.

What's also strange is that speed of the mashing doesn't seem to be as important as timing, because I quite often get more / max hits by just leisurely pressing the B button rather than mashing. Which is good, but it shows how weird the programming is on the hits. Mashing often generates less hits over-all for me.

Anyone got any insight on just how to control the nado better?

I've been wondering about that too. If I mash as fast as I possibly can, I get 18%. If I slow down, I get 21%. I guess it isn't necessarily a big deal, but I'm interested in knowing the mechanics behind it.

I've not run into this problem, if I mash normally, I get 21%, if I mash really fast I get 22% (thus not worth it half the time). Testing it out on my 3ds version as we speak because I have never ran into this problem, and these are 100% consistent for me. There is a hit box on the outside of the nado which pokes but doesn't do damage and obviously if enemies get caught later it does less damage. All the numbers I get are done when I jump onto the opponent (thus in my centroid).

Your nado's height is effected by when you initiate the tornado. For example when you do a full jump and initiate nado right before you land, you go really high into the air than if you just nado off the ground. If you to nado in the middle of your jump it has less height. Also if you mash at a slower pace your height doesn't increase as fast.

So the only issue I sometimes run across is balancing a slower smash speed while still completing nado (or getting slightly too much height at a faster speed.

But going back to the original inquiry, faster mashing equating for more damage is definitely the case for me. Perhaps I'm mashing so fast that I'm hitting all the right notes anyways or maybe I mash really slow (and think its fast) and hit the right tempo.

I don't know.

 

[Triburos]

I've not run into this problem, if I mash normally, I get 21%, if I mash really fast I get 22% (thus not worth it half the time). Testing it out on my 3ds version as we speak because I have never ran into this problem, and these are 100% consistent for me. There is a hit box on the outside of the nado which pokes but doesn't do damage and obviously if enemies get caught later it does less damage. All the numbers I get are done when I jump onto the opponent (thus in my centroid).

Your nado's height is effected by when you initiate the tornado. For example when you do a full jump and initiate nado right before you land, you go really high into the air than if you just nado off the ground. If you to nado in the middle of your jump it has less height. Also if you mash at a slower pace your height doesn't increase as fast.

So the only issue I sometimes run across is balancing a slower smash speed while still completing nado (or getting slightly too much height at a faster speed.

But going back to the original inquiry, faster mashing equating for more damage is definitely the case for me. Perhaps I'm mashing so fast that I'm hitting all the right notes anyways or maybe I mash really slow (and think its fast) and hit the right tempo.

I don't know.

You sound like a fast masher because it seems like you get consistant near or full hits to the point that the slower paced method just can't compete.

I honestly want to avoid having to mash as much as possible because it ****s with my hands and makes it harder to play. I seriously wish they just made it so you could hold the damn button. But now I'm griping.

I think I get your nado height theory though . I did what you mentioned, but my height height gain was weird; my height got increased if my feet just barely touched the ground after the jump, where as my height gain - even if done at the apex or rise of my jump - was nowhere near as high. I assume thats what you were talkin about.

My only guess as to why that MIGHT be the case is that MK has a bounce property enabled whilst in nado when it comes to hitting the ground. You can clearly see it by just running into a wall while in nado; you bounce right off. I'm sure you already know about that, I'm just going to assume you get a slight bounce upon barely touching the ground as well.

Like I said- I'm assuming you were talking about this 'mechanic' in the first place. But I just wanted to mention it regardless. Still; shields still really mess with my height and such, and I'm heavily considering if I should start using short hopped Nados since I gain alot more height and makes them much safer, but at the expensive of making them harder to hit with.

Anyways, even with this info I'm still not completely comfortable with the nado just yet. It has way too many chaotic factors and inconsistancies for me, but I still use it regardless. But man I wish we could just hold the button.

 

[warionumbah2]

When i mash i tend to tilt my controller to the right so i'm mashing slightly to the bottom left hand side. This reduces the amount of strain you put into mashing my hand feels perfectly fine after doing it if anything my arm is the one feeling it.

I don't mind since its like working out while playing my game lol , lag also kills nado inputs which i noticed in a laggy FG room i was in.

I mashed like there was no tomorrow but got 15% but doing it offline i consistently got 19-21%. Lag doesn't input everything you do so that's why you and Lavaknee are noticing the inconsistencies.

 

[Triburos]

When i mash i tend to tilt my controller to the right so i'm mashing slightly to the bottom left hand side. This reduces the amount of strain you put into mashing my hand feels perfectly fine after doing it if anything my arm is the one feeling it.

I don't mind since its like working out while playing my game lol , lag also kills nado inputs which i noticed in a laggy FG room i was in.

I mashed like there was no tomorrow but got 15% but doing it offline i consistently got 19-21%. Lag doesn't input everything you do so that's why you and Lavaknee are noticing the inconsistencies.

Oh it happens offline too, lmao.

Infact I first noticed the issue in training mode.

 

[Lavani]

Yeah, I'm speaking purely from offline observations. Nado definitely isn't a "mash as fast as possible" type of move, there's some sort of timing to when the inputs actually add hits.

 

[Rehnquist]

Oh it happens offline too, lmao.

Infact I first noticed the issue in training mode.

Yeah, I'm speaking purely from offline observations. Nado definitely isn't a "mash as fast as possible" type of move, there's some sort of timing to when the inputs actually add hits.

Alright I found it, took me half and hour but I found it. I was confused initially because in practice mode when I repeat the move over and over, I go from 22-44-66-88% when hitting my opponent over and over, I can also control 21 vs 22% entirely on demand, even when I mix my tempo (but still going what I consider fast)

So I tried tapping really slow, and I mean really slow and I was surprised to find that I was still able to match 21% (never 22% though), when trying this slow pressing out I also got a lot more varied results in the 15-21 range, in fact I found the slow pressing rather difficult to control.

When I "mash", I don't actually press with my fingers per say, I vibrate my wrist and arm which moves my fingers. So I think with the method I use its fast enough that being off tempo isn't an issue because the down time between button pressing is minimal which would explain why I can get consistent 21's or 22's pending on what I want.

TL/DR

Yes there is a right tempo, yes its rather slow, but if you press fast enough its not an issue.

 

[Fye]

I was playing against some guy's Rob the other days and he put up a wall of forward airs and d-tilts that I couldn't break. Zero Suit does a similar thing to me. How do you guys approach characters that put up a wall of moves? It seems so safe for them because MK doesn't have a projectile. Do you roll, dimensional cape, or just plain wait for them to stop?

 

[busken]

I was playing against some guy's Rob the other days and he put up a wall of forward airs and d-tilts that I couldn't break. Zero Suit does a similar thing to me. How do you guys approach characters that put up a wall of moves? It seems so safe for them because MK doesn't have a projectile. Do you roll, dimensional cape, or just plain wait for them to stop?

This is the reason why I think Meta Knight's neutral game is so poor because he has poor approach options and his aerial proficiency has been so nerfed making it barely viable. On top of that he lack of projectiles, means he can't throw out a hitbox that he can reliably zone or approach with. Unfortunately, this game is all about winning the neutral and since zoning is such a big part his overall viability peak is hindered.

What he is doing is Zoning. He is spacing his character, hitboxes, and potential hitboxes to limit your options and create pressure. Rob's forward air auto cancels and can be used to retreat making it safe on shield as well as an approach option. The only way to get in on him is force him to commit to an action in which you can punish. One way to do this is to tip toe in and out of his range in order to commit. You need to read his offensive option and find a way to counter it. Since MK's damage output is low, trades are ultimately not going to be in your favor.

 

[Xmark]

Questions. Does any one of Metaknights disjointed attacks out ranged marth?

Is Down b a good mix up?

I wouldn't really say out range but MK can dip in and out marth's attack range because he has good speed.
Right now I am in the lab with MK and discovered a few things.
Sense I haven't seen anybody post anything about "it" yet, monday I will post a tread about tech I "discovered/invented" with
MK's downB it's not game breaking but it will help in terms of micro spacing...or something like that.
I'm reveling it on monday because I have a tournament this sunday and I want to keep the tech hidden.

 

[CommanderVimes]

Forgive me if this seems a leading question but I'm currently comparing Meta Knight to Captain Falcon as part of my decision to try out the former. From what I've gathered, Meta Knight's primary style of dash attacking and down throwing into combos is very similar to Falcon's (and Diddy for that matter) but with less going for it. He's not as fast, lacks their power and weight, and has shorter range.

So what separates Meta Knight from these two? What should I focus on to make sure I'm using Meta Knight in all the ways he can be and not just a suboptimal version of other characters?

 

[warionumbah2]

First of all MK has more power than Falcon his F-Smash is stronger for starters and his kill setups work at higher percents unlike Falcon's down throw to knee which is extremely percent and character dependent. And he has better OOS options one actually killing reliably.

Differences between Diddy and Falcon: Smaller hurtbox,better recovery than Falcon,Down Special negating edgeguard attempts,Disjointed hitboxes,more kill setups than Falcon,Safer F-Smash,Stronger F-Smash than both of them,better dash attack than both of them,6 jumps and far better edgeguard tools than the both of them.

MK plays similar to Melee Fox i and others only say he's like Falcon because people(especially newbies who never touched Melee) have trouble using MK because he's so demanding with his combo's and is apparently 'hard' and 'unrewarding' which is untrue. Also people approach MK with the wrong mindset being 'Falcon 2.0' or 'Brawl MK'. So tbh you're putting him side by side with the wrong character.

And MK combo's have a lot going for it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tlcEDLSjO84

I highly disagree with that suboptimal part, that means anyone with kill setups are sub optimal compared to Diddy(have no idea why you're comparing MK to the best character in the game ).

And i think MK does better against the common tournament picks than Falcon.

 

[Rehnquist]

Forgive me if this seems a leading question but I'm currently comparing Meta Knight to Captain Falcon as part of my decision to try out the former. From what I've gathered, Meta Knight's primary style of dash attacking and down throwing into combos is very similar to Falcon's (and Diddy for that matter) but with less going for it. He's not as fast, lacks their power and weight, and has shorter range.

So what separates Meta Knight from these two? What should I focus on to make sure I'm using Meta Knight in all the ways he can be and not just a suboptimal version of other characters?

Your question is totally valid.

Falcon and Diddy have better aerials than MK, so don't put MK into the air unless you can guarantee something. They require less work (mentally and input wise) than MK due to the factors you mentioned, and those are real visible benefits they have over MK.

So what does MK have?

1) A Better Punish Game

F Smash's knock back is nearly on par with heavyweights but has very little ending lag. D Cape allows you to cover great distances to hit an attacking/landing/unsuspecting opponent, anything that takes lag / set animation into account you can punish it with D Cape. Also just general strings and nado allow for some % harassment. MK's lack of power translates into a better combo game against all characters, which allows you to control the flow of the battle before resetting to neutral. So while it takes more work (which is a negative), controlling the direction of a match via combos can place your opponent is less than ideal situations. An example of a less than ideal situation would be stringing a combo to eventually throw your opponent into Halberds laser beam.

2) Equal or Better Edge Guarding

MK's edge guarding is good, other characters have good tools for this as well, captain falcon has decent tools himself without even committing too far off the stage, but MK's multi jump + choices in recovery make him really hard to be edge guarded himself.

3) Harder to juggle

Light weight is a weakness but it also translates to breaking out of combos easier. Couldn't tell you how many otherwise lethal Hoo Haa strings I've escaped due to that. Add in multi jump and cape and we see that MK has more options for returning to neutral than most characters. So this also cancels out a bit as well.


So what this translates to is that MK has very few polarizing MU, which translates to making him a viable option even against those who have a larger list of favorable MU's, which is really what this boils down to. It means he can be a contender.

No one can honestly/sanely tell you that MK is better than Diddy overall in the MU's. He either can match Diddy in execution or perform sub-par on certain MU's compared to Diddy. Diddy has a more favorable MU list than MK does, there is no getting around that. MK has specific strengths which are unique to him which I've listed, and its about using your strengths and denying your opponent's theirs to the best of your abilities.

 

[CommanderVimes]

Thanks for the detailed answers you two. I can definitely see the differences in that respect now. I do like hearing that he doesn't have a lot of polarizing match ups (currently a Mac main so...yeah) but unfortunately being one of those newbies that never touched melee competitively I may not be able to play him satisfactorily enough at my current level. Maybe not the best character to really drive home fundamentals with (though his ground and gimp game could do that).

Well, I guess the best thing is to actually play and find out.

 

[Galactic Knight]

Thanks for the detailed answers you two. I can definitely see the differences in that respect now. I do like hearing that he doesn't have a lot of polarizing match ups (currently a Mac main so...yeah) but unfortunately being one of those newbies that never touched melee competitively I may not be able to play him satisfactorily enough at my current level. Maybe not the best character to really drive home fundamentals with (though his ground and gimp game could do that).

Well, I guess the best thing is to actually play and find out.

As much as I strongly hate playing against Mac, I tried playing as him multiple times and I've found that he's a really tricky character to use properly. Unless you play as defensively as possible and central to the stage, you easily find yourself knocked off the stage and unable to recover. I'm pretty sure the offensive playstyle I'm used to is hazardous against even the most sub-par of Mac players, since I run straight in to his super armour moves. I guess it doesn't help that I main a super lightweight.

 

[ILOVESMASH]

Is Tornado a reliable OOS option?

 

[AmishTechnology]

No, Tornado can only be a OOS option against shielded attacks that have pretty bad lag. Tornado's windup is quite noticeable.

I do like hearing that he doesn't have a lot of polarizing match ups (currently a Mac main so...yeah

Meta Knight's most prominently worst match-ups just happen to be the most popular tournament characters... Sonic, Diddy, Sheik, Captain Falcon, ZSS. I also think he's unfavored against Mario, another popular character. However, he has a splendid match-up against Rosalina and a good (though not necessarily favored) one against Pikachu. Of the low tiers, the only ones who I wouldn't be surprised having the edge over MK are Marth and Dedede (if customs are allowed, MK will probably stomp Dedede with the option of HSD negating the need to respect gordos). I've heard a couple people also mention Ganon being a bad MU, but I'm not 100% convinced on that yet.

His main weakness is his bad approach, which is bad due to a couple of factors: abysmal range and no shorthop aerials that autocancel. He has dash attack and dash grab which admittedly are good options, but they are also his only good options. His other neutral options like catching them in a tornado or aerial are much riskier. That being said, he still fares well against 90% of the cast because his approach is enough to overwhelm the low-to-mid tier characters' equally lacking (or even moreso) defense, and a lot of the cast themselves have a tough time approaching MK due to his speed. MK's troublesome matchups have at least one of the following: 1.) A notably better neutral game (basically all the top tiers), 2.) Range (characters like Dedede, Ganon, and Shulk give MK much reason to hesitate in approaching due to range alone, they don't even need speed since they can outspace him quite well), 3.) Speed (once again, all the top tiers; if you have a better approaching game AND better speed than Meta Knight, you're basically beating him at his own game...).

 

[warionumbah2]

MKs worst MU against the top is not Sheik,Falcon or Diddy(he's bad but he's exaggerated as ****). ZSS and Sonic are bad MUs, Sonic being less bad on platform stages especially SV.

If you're getting stomped by Sheik and C.Falcon that's your b, it seems people here think Falcon bum rushes MK im cool with that opinion though. Mario imo is even you just play super defensive like Sheik difference is that Sheik forces us to approach, both have safe and fast moves , both have low damage per hit. MK hates safe characters because he'll have to wait longer, Mario being more difficult to combo compared to Sheik.

Mario bros are even for us only if you play super patient because their moves are safe and their frame data is abnormal.

MK does so well against other characters that aren't top tier(besides Ganon although lately im doing better against him). He does extremely well against Olimar,Little Mac,Dr Mario,Lucina,Link,Tink and some others.

Also speed is needed, Ganon throws out a dtilt and get away with it because of low end lag, D3 throws out his Ftilt but gets punished due to end lag . I read on the competitive thread that D3 beats MK but the reasoning was theorycraft to the next level and misinformation on MK.

DK and Ganon are the only heavies that have a slight advantage MU on MK. Think people getting MK mixed up with Kirby who has poor mobility and follow ups out of throws.

Is Tornado a reliable OOS option?

Sadly no, his OOS options are rising dair(combo starter) and shuttle loop(kill option).

 

[ILOVESMASH]

Would RAR bair into ftilit be a good approach option? I've used it Many times against my opponents and it seems to be safe on shield if spaced correctly.

 

[AmishTechnology]

I would assume no. It's hard to land, but I'll ignore that and pretend I'm actually competent and can throw it and space it out as I want. If the enemy shields it, can't they just run up and grab you? All SH aerials from MK lag... If you space it, yeah they can't shield grab you, but they'll shield drop and just hit you.

 

[Fye]

What stages do you guys like to play as Metaknight? I like to start neutral Smashville, counterpick Town and City and usually ban FD.

 

[LostinpinK]

It depends of your ruleset, but people against MK usually strike BF and Lylat, which makes Town & City available for the first game. Afterwards you can CP Halberd or BF. I ban FD too in general, but I wonder about Castle Siege?

 

[warionumbah2]

What stages do you guys like to play as Metaknight? I like to start neutral Smashville, counterpick Town and City and usually ban FD.

Here's my throughts

It depends on who you're fighting but good stages in no order are

Battlefield
Helbird
Town and city
Smashville
Delfino
Skyloft
Donkey kong jungle 64
Castle seige

MK does really well against ness and pikachu too for that matter,both in our favor(more even for pikachu). They aren't scary high tiers that's for sure. Don't take diddy to low ceiling stages.

Ban FD, FD sucks!

It depends of your ruleset, but people against MK usually strike BF and Lylat, which makes Town & City available for the first game. Afterwards you can CP Halberd or BF. I ban FD too in general, but I wonder about Castle Siege?

Castle Seige is a good CP against

especially every section hinders him in some way. The rest is there because the statues ruin their zone game and all of them are slower than MK so we can waste time by running away when we have the lead.

 

[ItoI6]

smashville is very strong for mk because it helps him camp really easily which is good because everyone usually agrees to it.

town and city and halberd are both great cps ofc

fd is actually ok i think its not bad, but i dont like bf at all because sometimes when i shuttle loop from the ground i push off the highest platform before the 2nd hit and it causes me to whiff.

if you pick an fd though try for an omega you cant walljump on because it will hurt other characters that have one. omega pacland and kalos are good omegas for him

usually no one else ever wants to go to any other stages so i dont really know about them.

 

[Zethoro]

Do you guys have any tips on dealing with Dorf?
So yesterday on Anther's Ladder I ran into this Dorf. I was able to fight him off with my Robin, but he was very good at stuffing my approaches and just about anything with that near unpunishable USmash. Reminds me a lot of MK's FSmash. Anyway, the guy was very smart with just stuffing my approaches and keeping me out, and was very prescise and deadly with his punishes.
I don't know how this MU works, so any tips would be appreciated.

 

[warionumbah2]

You must constantly stay in the air and mix up your landings, staying in the air lowers the threat and makes Ganon think twice before going near us.

Aerial threats: Fair,Uair,Bair,Nair.

Ground threats: Bair,Nair,DA,Wizard Foot,Flame choke,Dtilt,Ftilt,U-Smssh etc

If Ganon tries to run under and Uair we can react by jumping up then fast fall, make sure you're throwing out dair every jump i suggest watching S2H's MK to see what it looks like.

Punish any over commitment on his end with DA then make sure you get as much damage as possible, then run away and play neutral again. I say this because there's times where Ganon punished me hard for being too impatient.

If Ganon recovers horizontally i suggest leaving him, it seems like his side b beats all our aerials except the back of sweetspot nair which is hard af to land. If he recovers low fall off stage facing the stage and throw out nair since it beats his up b reliably.

If Ganon throws out U-Smash in neutral its bait, as you said its similar to our F-Smash. Our best kill options are DA in Shuttle Loop, i would also include Dtilt into Shuttle Loop/Dimensional Cape but its too risky.

Ganon can't force us to approach so we have no reason in attempting to do so, take to the skies and punish him then quickly reset to neutral. Don't take Gdorf to battlefield we need room to work with.

 

[Zethoro]

You must constantly stay in the air and mix up your landings, staying in the air lowers the threat and makes Ganon think twice before going near us.

Aerial threats: Fair,Uair,Bair,Nair.

Ground threats: Bair,Nair,DA,Wizard Foot,Flame choke,Dtilt,Ftilt,U-Smssh etc

If Ganon tries to run under and Uair we can react by jumping up then fast fall, make sure you're throwing out dair every jump i suggest watching S2H's MK to see what it looks like.

Punish any over commitment on his end with DA then make sure you get as much damage as possible, then run away and play neutral again. I say this because there's times where Ganon punished me hard for being too impatient.

If Ganon recovers horizontally i suggest leaving him, it seems like his side b beats all our aerials except the back of sweetspot nair which is hard af to land. If he recovers low fall off stage facing the stage and throw out nair since it beats his up b reliably.

If Ganon throws out U-Smash in neutral its bait, as you said its similar to our F-Smash. Our best kill options are DA in Shuttle Loop, i would also include Dtilt into Shuttle Loop/Dimensional Cape but its too risky.

Ganon can't force us to approach so we have no reason in attempting to do so, take to the skies and punish him then quickly reset to neutral. Don't take Gdorf to battlefield we need room to work with.

Very good info, makes sense too. I'll try adding it to my game. Thanks!
So since BF is out, I should take him to FD unless he strikes (from the sounds of it he probably will) and then what, Town and City? Smashville and Lylat seem to share that "lack of space" problem.
What would be the best CP? Duck Hunt, maybe? I feel if he gets a CP I might want to pick Robin for this MU since he's probably going BF.

 

[warionumbah2]

Town and City is great against Gdorf, i would also suggest Skyloft. FD is a good choice too. You may as well go Robin since you'll be playing extremely patiently and campy, if your Robin is better than your MK go for it.

 

[Zethoro]

Town and City is great against Gdorf, i would also suggest Skyloft. FD is a good choice too. You may as well go Robin since you'll be playing extremely patiently and campy, if your Robin is better than your MK go for it.

Alright then, thanks for the advice.

 

[Pazx]

I've just picked up MK in this game, some of the things he can do are pretty filthy and he's enjoyable to play, but I'm after some pointers. For reference, I'm a competitive player and TO and my Smash fundamentals are solid but I typically rely on superior knowledge (be it character or stage) to succeed, so I want to learn the finer points of this character.

Our neutral sucks and our aerials all have some landing lag, but are any of them good spacing/approach tools? What are our general tools in neutral aside from dash attack and grab? I've seen dtilt being used but it seems a tad on the slow side for a shortish ranged poke. I don't want to become one dimensional by relying only on options out of a dash but I also don't want to get into the habit of using subpar tools that are easily punished.

Conversely, what are our worst moves? Do we have anything that we simply shouldn't be throwing out in any situation? (IMO perhaps jab or utilt?)

Downsmash is still quick as hell, right? Should I be using it as a punish, or is there always a better option? Frame data on both hits would be cool to look at I suppose. Am I correct in thinking the second hit has better knockback?

Is nair as good as I think it is?

What are our better strings/combos aside from dthrow/dashattack -> uair x100?

Edit: one last thing, I hear our matchup with Rosalina isn't bad, tips would be appreciated as the second best in my region mains Rosie.

Edit 2: fsmash has early IASA frames, what do you guys follow fsmash with to keep it safe?

 

[warionumbah2]

Our neutral sucks and our aerials all have some landing lag, but are any of them good spacing/approach tools? What are our general tools in neutral aside from dash attack and grab? I've seen dtilt being used but it seems a tad on the slow side for a shortish ranged poke. I don't want to become one dimensional by relying only on options out of a dash but I also don't want to get into the habit of using subpar tools that are easily punished.

Only aerial we should safely be going for is dair while using jumps at the same time, we shouldn't be landing with aerials since they're laggy. If the opponent does something dumb while you're in the air you should land into them with nair, if they miss the tech on the ground you can follow up with a DA and do what you want from there.

MK should be going for DA and DG early in the game, if that isn't working we mix up our approaches using empty hops like Ike. If they shield we fall on them with Mach Tornado and eat their shield if they don't expect it then we got a free 19-23%. Empty hops into grabs is also good too yet another Ike type of play.

Dtilt is our fastest ground move and tied fastest Dtilt in the game, coming out on frame 3 and ends on 4 this also sets up 2 kill moves and another being a stage spike.

We mostly stay at mid range so we can punish people better, alot of characters mid range game is crap so MK tends to beat alot of characters convincingly(pretty much any character that isn't top tier).

Conversely, what are our worst moves? Do we have anything that we simply shouldn't be throwing out in any situation? (IMO perhaps jab or utilt?)

Fair is garbage unless you're following up out of a throw or DA. Utilt is useful after DA at low percents, it can frame trap some characters very well.

DA --> utilt(sometimes twice depending on char) --> Uair(if they don't airdodge they'll get hit by 4 more uairs into Shuttle Loop) --> nair(punish airdodge) --> If they miss the tech you DA and start again.

Drill Rush and Jab also come to mind as moves i never use. That's it really every other move has a better use. Only time use jab is when i miss click lol even so it catches spot dodges....:/

Downsmash is still quick as hell, right? Should I be using it as a punish, or is there always a better option? Frame data on both hits would be cool to look at I suppose. Am I correct in thinking the second hit has better knockback?

Its faster than Mario's and yes the 2nd hit has insane KB, this move also keeps the slide after Perfect Pivoting. You can find MKs frame data on the Mu discussions.

Is nair as good as I think it is?

Yes. The back of it beats moves more reliably and kills really well only losing to bair off stage.

What are our better strings/combos aside from dthrow/dashattack -> uair x100?

There's a ton of combo's Katakiri posted on the General Discussion i'll edit the link in when i find it.http://smashboards.com/threads/the-...eneral-discussion.370875/page-5#post-18421705

Edit: one last thing, I hear our matchup with Rosalina isn't bad, tips would be appreciated as the second best in my region mains Rosie.

http://smashboards.com/threads/meta...n-critique-thread.371317/page-3#post-18754137
Recent
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wrS7O4ew5gY
Old

We haven't done the Rosa MU yet so we haven't shared our tactics properly but these videos give at least a little bit of insight on how MK handles it.

Edit 2: fsmash has early IASA frames, what do you guys follow fsmash with to keep it safe?

Dtilt,Instant DA or another F-Smash just cuz(no joke people run into this despite knowing about how safe F-Smash is).

Hope this was helpful.

 

[ItoI6]

i like ftilt over dtilt after a fsmash because sometimes dtilt barely misses on people running on you and the multihits catch people easier, but instant dash attack or another fsmash are definitely the two other best options.

when you land uair at ultra early percents like <20%, i usually just fastfall immediately after the uair out of range of whatever they do, and then punish their mashed attack or airdodge with nado.

i dont like dash attack-utilt tbh, upsmash comes out on the same frame as up tilt and does more damage, i always just dash attack-upsmash whenever i could have also used uptilt

i think im having a lot more success with mk in neutral using ftilt in places where i used dtilt before. i know using a frame 6 move that does 7% as your poke is pretty ****, but its much better in practice than on paper. just use ftilt 1 and 2 and stop, and the threat of ftilt 3 should keep them out and also keep you safe on shield. in contrast dtilt misses all the time when it should hit because its like the only move ive ever seen in the game that has no vertical hitbox, and is impossible to space on people who are running around unless you are literally jesus. the only time i use it now is when i clank with my opponent and just need to use my fastest move, or my opponent is stuck in shield and i can space something safe on them with no risk. at first i didnt like this move because it doesnt give you much of a reward, but if you use it like i described so that its safe on shield its a significant improvement in his neutral game.

it gives him an actual spacing tool that doesnt require you to run when using a move. just dash shield up to the opponent outside of their range, and walk up and space ftilt 1 and 2 on shield and wait. so good. also you want to use ftilt 2 like immediately after ftilt 1. ftilt 1's hitbox is slightly fraudulent, but ftilt 2's hitbox is actually true to the sword's animation and extends slightly farther, which can catch things that the 1st hit misses. i mean aside from only doing 7% instead of 10%, being 6 frames instead of 3, and the 1st hit having less range than it should, it still has the same important shield mixup qualities as well as having good range on 2nd and 3rd hit which made it one the best spacing tools in brawl. try using it as an approach as said and also its great for defending against people dashing in on you, which dtilt simply cannot do.

 

[Dj.D]

I fought a Meta Knight the other day who completely destroyed me. Started the battle by somehow juggling me while doing up airs and finished me off at the top of the screen with the Shuttle Loop at the top of the screen, killing me at a low percentage. Did it twice and I didn't really have a chance to react and trying to air dodge didn't work. How did he do that? It was cheap. I tried to recreate that in training mode but couldn't.

 

[Rehnquist]

I fought a Meta Knight the other day who completely destroyed me. Started the battle by somehow juggling me while doing up airs and finished me off at the top of the screen with the Shuttle Loop at the top of the screen, killing me at a low percentage. Did it twice and I didn't really have a chance to react and trying to air dodge didn't work. How did he do that? It was cheap. I tried to recreate that in training mode but couldn't.

I like your last 2 sentences. Several characters have true combos that lead to kills. Ganon, Falcon, MK, etc have a few options with these.

Pending on your character, there are certain combos open at certain %'s that work on specific characters. The lighter characters like g&w and Tink can be killed on FD by simply doing B-Throw, DA, Uair x6, SL which would kill at 57% assuming the positioning is correct. So stages with lower ceilings becomes even easier to pull off. Characters with more weight require slightly more intricate set ups. For the g&w/tink example if the attempt fails then it can't be replicated again until they have you back to the necessary %.

If you are asking how to Uair string, all I can say is you just do it. It's not a secret and doesn't really require any fancy finger dexterity. Its just a series of jumps and Uairs. I have tap jump on but it can be done with button jumps and Uairs. Then its just maintaining positioning so your opponent stays within the hitbox and the sixth hit pushing your opponent up and forward into range of SL.

If you are asking what you can do to stop this, remember that MK has low range, low priority, is light, and has moderate landing lag. These are things you need to take advantage of. Uair strings only really work at low % otherwise the push back is too much, so if you can stuff/avoid MK's very limited approach options in the beginning, you'll generally get an impatient MK who will then just damage you to the point where Uair strings are no longer as effective.

Essentially play defensive or zone. MK has dash grab and dash attack both of which are instant attacks and from the same movement option. This will constitute the vast majority of their approaches. Otherwise, they are just going to try and bait you into throwing out a bad move. MK is forced to approach you, so keep that in mind.

 

[Smog Frog]

can ftilt be used in footstool locks in a manner similar to dtilt?(just keep using the first hit of ftilt)

 

[AmishTechnology]

I don't think it jab locks them. If it does, it's probably too laggy anyways if you don't want to do the 2nd and 3rd hit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZJx5F0kTms

Apparently, only dtilt and fair (at low percents) can do it.

 

[JayWon]

"- There are 3 visual angles at which Meta Knight attacks with his down-b, Dimensional Cape. In this link you can see that he has a Neutral slash, a Retreating slash, and a Reverse slash. Lavani has helped me out and has said this:"

How do you do these?

Also, any advice on stringing u-airs? Do you use C+stick with shoulder button jump? or normal X + A? I'm not sure what to look for to know whether they are in hitstun or can air dodge. Are you supposed to fast fall + jump/U-air or keep jump/U-air simultaneously or jump and short delay U-air or idk.