Data Meta Knight Match-Up Discussion Directory

[ZTD | TECHnology]

I will acknowledge Olimar is possibly in our favor because although I have played this MU a bit I am not that good at it and Ito makes it seem possible to be in our favor. Luigi is definitely debatable if I'm not the only one that thinks that lol Even Ito thinks we don't win the MU. I mean, I play a million Luigi's so I'm definitely willing to try a much more defensive approach (though I play it gay not) but there's a thing as too passive/defensive in every MU. Not convinced until top MKs start invoking the cancer and consistently beat top Luigis by using said method. Even Katakiri who you said is the only Luigi who has the MU on lock, still lost to Luigis from my state (one near the top of our PR and the other at the very bottom) multiple times.

 

[Ulevo]

Meta Knight is a scavenger, not a tent pitcher. Defensive play is ideal in many circumstances but you cannot win match ups without taking proper initiative unless it is characters like Olimar, or if we have a stock lead and they will die to a Shuttle Loop out of shield.

I do believe Meta Knight wins the Mario match up 6:4, and Luigi is 5:5. The difference is made up for the fact that Luigi can kill Meta Knight, which takes away one of his core strengths he normally has. There is a possibility we win that match up too, but the consensus from many Meta Knights and the results say otherwise until further notice.

 

[Bonk!]

Roy hasn't been a problem for me on the ladder. I've played maybe about 9 sets with "Roy mains" and won them all. As generic as it sounds, playing smart and punishing Roy when he throws out a move at the incorrect time is your best way to deal with him. Once we get Roy offstage he's putty in our hands, but watch out for counter.

@ Ulevo

 

[warionumbah2]

I do believe Meta Knight wins the Mario match up 6:4, and Luigi is 5:5. The difference is made up for the fact that Luigi can kill Meta Knight, which takes away one of his core strengths he normally has. There is a possibility we win that match up too, but the consensus from many Meta Knights and the results say otherwise until further notice.

I agree with all this which is surprising, its a shame MKs are getting body bagged by Luigi. I remember watching a japanese MK and the moment the match started he DA onto Luigi's shield, i then closed the video.

 

[Ulevo]

Roy hasn't been a problem for me on the ladder. I've played maybe about 9 sets with "Roy mains" and won them all. As generic as it sounds, playing smart and punishing Roy when he throws out a move at the incorrect time is your best way to deal with him. Once we get Roy offstage he's putty in our hands, but watch out for counter.

@ Ulevo

I do not like For Glory or online results generally, but I feel more pessimistic when it comes to online Meta Knight results. Part of what makes intermediate to top level Meta Knight play possible is microspacing and maneuvering around hit and hurt boxes to secure damage. You cannot do this properly online. This is especially a problem when you are in a very space oriented match up where you are constantly on a knife edge the way you are against Roy. It is very easy to get complacent against characters like Fox or Mario because Meta Knight's sword will beat everything they have. Roy straight up wins trades if we challenge him, both in range and in damage.

 

[Katakiri]

Ryu I think beats us but I dont play good Ryu's and there's no high level Ryu's out there atm. Just theorycraft stuff like the Roy write up above shouldn't really talk about new characters IMO. Too much guessing(other than lucas).

Just like Yoshi.

 

[warionumbah2]

Just like Yoshi.

There's high level Yoshi's though.

 

[W.A.C.]

For whatever reason, Yoshi just does not get the results people feel he should get. Just an incredibly under-utilized character. Doesn't help he has one of the worst side specials in the game and his custom variants of it are even worse.

 

[Bonk!]

I really wanna see more Peach players getting results. Watching top Peach mains like Crow is so fascinating. She's definitely more technical than Ryu. I feel like once somebody truly masters Peach's advanced techniques we will see a huge shift in the meta.

 

[Katakiri]

Yeah Yoshi's this character that everyone says "Oh Yoshi tho! Yoshi is everything! Easy top 10, top 15 best character!" and then there's no results for this character. I know Raptor does good work with Yoshi but I've never see him break into top 3 in any results thread in Smash 4.

It makes me wonder how much people speak from actual Yoshi experience and how much people are just pulling out of their ***.

 

[W.A.C.]

Yeah Yoshi's this character that everyone says "Oh Yoshi tho! Yoshi is everything! Easy top 10, top 15 best character!" and then there's no results for this character. I know Raptor does good work with Yoshi but I've never see him break into top 3 in any results thread in Smash 4.

It makes me wonder how much people speak from actual Yoshi experience and how much people are just pulling out of their ***.

Raptor actually got 2nd place at a tournament yesterday and took a set off of False at Grand Finals.

 

[Ulevo]

So, while I do not necessarily think using standard attack is a good option to dissuade Pikachu from using Quick Attack in neutral as per the earlier discussion, I did find some application for it outside of its current uses. I was actually using it as an anti-air in my casual matches today, specifically against Roy. Whenever Roy came in for a short hop aerial approach, I was able to use standard attack to completely negate the advance. The hit box is big enough and comes out quickly enough that it can serve this function quite nicely, and even Roy's disjoint cannot reach Meta Knight through the flurry of hit boxes.

 

[Pazx]

I think ROB is a very good character but I don't know how he does anything to MK so I'm surprised to see people saying ROB wins. Obviously his strengths should come from the neutral game but a MK playing lame should beat him very handily IMO. ROB's neutral tools are obviously gyro, nair, retreating fair and dtilt. MK doesn't have to do anything to win neutral, just shield projectiles and move around to bait attacks. ROB can't use retreating aerials in neutral against a character that isn't approaching and MK should never be in the range for dtilt which means if you can negotiate through projectiles all you have to deal with is nair and grab attempts. If ROB short hops, dash to shield beats both nair and tomahawk, and if he does decide to touch MK's shield he's going to eat an up-B OoS, a dash attack, or a dash grab which is bad news for Combo Fodder: The Character. His projectiles aren't difficult to negotiate, laser is slow enough to shield on reaction and ROB only has defensive options to cancel gyro charge (shield or roll) which means walking towards him prepared to powershield or dash grab/attack beats that option. 6 jumps and dimensional cape help manage projectiles too. If you get control of the gyro and you don't have good item play you can throw it up to stop him spawning a new one for a decent amount of time. ROB glide tossing downwards can be intimidating but I'm pretty sure MK can dash attack on reaction as it's really just a flashy movement technique. The best thing ROB can do with the gyro is put it between the two characters which is managed easily.

tl;dr just move around in a range where you can dash attack anything stupid on reaction and play very defensively.
60:40

 

[Ulevo]

I think ROB is a very good character but I don't know how he does anything to MK so I'm surprised to see people saying ROB wins. Obviously his strengths should come from the neutral game but a MK playing lame should beat him very handily IMO. ROB's neutral tools are obviously gyro, nair, retreating fair and dtilt. MK doesn't have to do anything to win neutral, just shield projectiles and move around to bait attacks. ROB can't use retreating aerials in neutral against a character that isn't approaching and MK should never be in the range for dtilt which means if you can negotiate through projectiles all you have to deal with is nair and grab attempts. If ROB short hops, dash to shield beats both nair and tomahawk, and if he does decide to touch MK's shield he's going to eat an up-B OoS, a dash attack, or a dash grab which is bad news for Combo Fodder: The Character. His projectiles aren't difficult to negotiate, laser is slow enough to shield on reaction and ROB only has defensive options to cancel gyro charge (shield or roll) which means walking towards him prepared to powershield or dash grab/attack beats that option. 6 jumps and dimensional cape help manage projectiles too. If you get control of the gyro and you don't have good item play you can throw it up to stop him spawning a new one for a decent amount of time. ROB glide tossing downwards can be intimidating but I'm pretty sure MK can dash attack on reaction as it's really just a flashy movement technique. The best thing ROB can do with the gyro is put it between the two characters which is managed easily.

tl;dr just move around in a range where you can dash attack anything stupid on reaction and play very defensively.
60:40

1: R.O.B. has projectiles, Meta Knight does not. Therefore, Meta Knight has to approach, generally speaking.
2: How do you punish perfectly spaced neutral air?

 

[Pazx]

1: R.O.B. has projectiles, Meta Knight does not. Therefore, Meta Knight has to approach, generally speaking.
2: How do you punish perfectly spaced neutral air?

1. MK "approaches" by moving around in a range where laser is completely useless (ie too risky) and playing a reactive game. This isn't a matchup where he should be camping the SV platform offstage.
2. You don't need to. ROB is a slow character and he shouldn't be getting these regularly unless the gyro is stopping you dashing in (in which case you walk up and grab it after he nairs). If he does get a perfectly spaced nair off you shield it and don't attempt to punish. You should be ready to dash -> shield the instant he short hops. ROB's nair can't autocancel if he fast falls it out of a short hop and must be initiated very close to the start of the short hop which means the timing can't be mixed up at all. If he short hops and you dash -> shield, he either hits your shield with a poorly spaced nair (free punish) or it was an empty hop, making his landing options tomahawk or landing with a laggy aerial both of which can be shield grabbed or dash grabbed/attacked depending on spacing.

 

[Ulevo]

1. MK "approaches" by moving around in a range where laser is completely useless (ie too risky) and playing a reactive game. This isn't a matchup where he should be camping the SV platform offstage.
2. You don't need to. ROB is a slow character and he shouldn't be getting these regularly unless the gyro is stopping you dashing in (in which case you walk up and grab it after he nairs). If he does get a perfectly spaced nair off you shield it and don't attempt to punish. You should be ready to dash -> shield the instant he short hops. ROB's nair can't autocancel if he fast falls it out of a short hop and must be initiated very close to the start of the short hop which means the timing can't be mixed up at all. If he short hops and you dash -> shield, he either hits your shield with a poorly spaced nair (free punish) or it was an empty hop, making his landing options tomahawk or landing with a laggy aerial both of which can be shield grabbed or dash grabbed/attacked depending on spacing.

My question was rhetorical. You cannot punish a properly spaced neutral air from R.O.B. The player has to mess up the spacing, or you have to preemptively punish R.O.B. before the hit box comes out.

I am not saying this to readily disagree with you about whether or not R.O.B. is or is not at an edge against Meta Knight. I am saying there are reasons to suggest why he would.

 

[Amadeus9]

I don't see how a character we can't bait and we can't approach has a negative matchup against us. Sorry.

 

[Katakiri]

ROB's N-Air is safe for the most part but it has notable start-up and can be rather predictable. It can lead into Shuttle Loop KOs OoS or running Up-Smashes if he's not careful with them. Still it's probably a 45:55 MU overall. MK excels at getting in through any little opening and ROB's wall is far from perfect. Control mid-stage and punish when it's safe. Don't be afraid to sit in shield at a distance and throw in some pokes if ROB opts to move in. You also have 6 jumps; use them to avoid Gyro or steal it for yourself. If you control center stage & punish properly ROB you'll eventually win. ROB has a better overall toolkit than MK but it's nothing insurmountable and his Gyro is fantastic if used against him. 45:55 seems right to me.

 

[DavemanCozy]

We're discussing vs at the Fox boards.

I have like, one MK I play against freqently, but he's yung. Come out of your batcaves please and inform us of what Meta Knight is capable of.

Victory is his destiny. Click here to join us in discussion.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

@ItoI6 @ Katakiri @Fye or anyone: Is anyone well versed in the MU? The first seed is my pool this weekend mains this Aura ***** and I want to be 100% ready. Very familiar with the character's tools but not necessarily the MU.

 

[Ulevo]

@ItoI6 @ Katakiri @Fye or anyone: Is anyone well versed in the MU? The first seed is my pool this weekend mains this Aura ***** and I want to be 100% ready. Very familiar with the character's tools but not necessarily the MU.

Lucario's approach options are not very strong. His dash attack is alright and his neutral air is relatively lagless, but a lot of his neutral game revolves around B-Reverse Aura Sphere mix ups and spacing tilts. He struggles against Captain Falcon because he lacks the ability to prevent fast all-ins, so Meta Knight should theoretically have the advantage in this regard. His main kill options are Aura Sphere, B-Reverse Aura Sphere in to up smash, back air, up air near the ceiling, Force Palm, and smash attacks. Most of those are unsafe. As long as you respect back air's range and shield push, and you keep an eye out for Aura Sphere's and B-Reverse Aura Sphere at high %, you will be alright. However, there is another way Lucario can kill some characters; he can hit confirm in to a Force Palm from down air 1. Essentially he uses down air after the jump squat and the down air stalls him on the ground. The first hit will connect and the 2nd hit will whiff. The stun is long enough to guarantee a Force Palm, and can kill you as early as 30%. This technique is character dependent. Some characters are susceptible, while with others it will only work on at unreasonably high %. I do not know if it works on Meta Knight or not. You should investigate that.

 

[warionumbah2]

Reading that R.O.B discussion doesn't MK have(one of) the best glide toss in the game?

 

[Katakiri]

Pika discussion is up.

I updated the MU ratios a while back based on feedback but it anything still looks off, let me know.

 

[Tito Maas]

If anyone at all isn't happy with any of our current MU ratios, post about it in the character's thread. Again, our MU threads are always open because characters and opinions change constantly with time. There's some MUs I'd like to go back to myself soon.

These are my personal MK MU ratios + tier list (alphabetical order within tiers):

A | Exceptional positive traits with no big flaws; can come out on top in almost any match-up
50:50
50:50
50:50
45:55
60:40
60:40
50:40
40:60
50:50

A- | Extremely solid but one or two flaws keep these characters from A-tier
55:45
:
50:50
50:50
55:45
50:50

B | Competitively viable with no insurmountable match-ups but have notable flaws to work around
50:50
45:55
50:50
Ora:Aura (Aura makes this MU a nightmare to dumb-down to a ratio)
60:40
50:50
60:40

B- | The back end of the viable characters; flaws and MUs are harder to work around but can be done
55:45
60:40
55:45
60:40
60:40
55:45
60:40

C | Too many flaws to be viable on their own but they are viable secondaries for specific match-ups
50:50
50:50
60:40
50:50
60:40
50:50
60:40
60:40
55:45

D | The start of "Low-tier". More bad match-ups and flaws than positive traits. Again, viable counter-pick characters but there are always better options
60:40
65:35
55:45
70:30
55:45
70:30
60:40
70:30

D- | The D stands for "Don't do this to yourself."
70:30
60:40
60:40
80:20

Wii-tier | From the Wii's hottest titles
:Who's ever even played this MU?
70:30

Can you break down the Pit MU? I'm having a terribly hard time with Meta Knight, it's like when I play him, I'm always on the defensive. I feel like Pit's tools just aren't good enough for a character with virtually no end lag, and I get absolutely dominated. Arrows are completely useless against his 5 jumps and I feel like there's not a move I have that can even annoy Meta Knight or keep him at bay for even a second.

How do you reason 50-50 in that matchup?

 

[Swamp Sensei]

http://smashboards.com/threads/charizard-matchup-discussion-meta-knight.411650/

Hey Meta Knight mains.

The Charizard boards are discussing the Meta Knight vs Charizard matchup.

Come over and tell us what you think. :D

 

[Vyrnx]

So the Samus boards are discussing MK's up air to up b instant death and we are unsure if this is a true combo on Samus, or just slow falling characters in general. Does this combo work on the whole cast, and if not does it work on Samus specifically?

 

[warionumbah2]

Works on everyone no exceptions, but its easy as hell to do to Smaus due to her floaty nature.

 

[Amadeus9]

So the Samus boards are discussing MK's up air to up b instant death and we are unsure if this is a true combo on Samus, or just slow falling characters in general. Does this combo work on the whole cast, and if not does it work on Samus specifically?

It works on samus from like 18%. Seriously the Samus matchup is so easy just because of it. a dash attack or down throw on Samus between 18 and 30 percent should mean a stock almost every single time.

 

[warionumbah2]

Rant

And honestly write ups about MKs neutral never play out the same in real matches. For example, in theory Sheik should absolutely invalidate us because we have 'the worse neutral in the game' vs Sheik neutral.

But MK has clearly shown at high level that he can handle Sheik(many,many,many times before the Leo hype), even when the MK player is worse than the Sheik player(Zex vs Trevonte) he can still pull off a win due to his high rewards.

When i read write ups on other boards, its always "his neutral is poor therefore we have the edge" or "He only has 2 approach options, so long as we know its easy". None of this plays out in actual games, people know about his neutral and approach options yet still get bopped. You cannot react to DA you anticipate it similar to other DAs like Fox, when he runs at you do you react to his DA or predict it?

In theory MK should lose to 90% of the cast just because his neutral and approach options are 'poor'. Everytime a high level MK does something he's shooting down theorycrafts of his play bit by bit. Someone at Ito's scene said that he figured out MK after he lost, "all he does is DA and DG" he said....hasn't beaten Ito yet. Whoops.¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[Vyrnx]

Is the instant kill combo really easier on floatier characters? That's odd. However I did notice that Samus was much easier to combo than Fox in training.

I couldn't get it to work on Jiggs in training, but jiggs is jiggs. MK is definitely a horrible MU for us. It's not because Samus has horrible MUs against all high tiers (we have favorable MUs against Luigi and Ness), MK just has all of the tools and his small size makes zairing hard for us.


Thanks for the replies!

 

[warionumbah2]

Is the instant kill combo really easier on floatier characters? That's odd. However I did notice that Samus was much easier to combo than Fox in training.

I couldn't get it to work on Jiggs in training, but jiggs is jiggs. MK is definitely a horrible MU for us. It's not because Samus has horrible MUs against all high tiers (we have favorable MUs against Luigi and Ness), MK just has all of the tools and his small size makes zairing hard for us.


Thanks for the replies!

Here's a video for reference.

https://youtu.be/ktGb-jimFC0?t=110

 

[JigglyZelda003]

oh MK mains would you care to join us at the Zelda boards for matchup discussion?

http://smashboards.com/threads/a-li...ssion-metaknight.384490/page-21#post-19833680

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

To all Meta Knights out there, the Rosalina sub-forum has a match-up discussion thread all set up to analyze Rosalina's match-up against Meta Knight. Got anything to share for the Rosalina vs. Meta Knight match-up? Then head to the following thread link...

http://smashboards.com/threads/414439/

In terms of the rules, be sure to go to the directory thread.

http://smashboards.com/threads/404194/

 

[Gemba Board]

Guys, have we discussed the ganon MU anywhere but here or the ganon boards?

 

[Jamurai]

Not in depth I don't think. The only thing I've heard is don't play dumb and let him punish you, and you should win. That's common sense though lol

 

[Gemba Board]

Not in depth I don't think. The only thing I've heard is don't play dumb and let him punish you, and you should win. That's common sense though lol

Yeah what I gathered from playing against a ganon pocket was exactly that. Any whiffed shuttle loops, tornados, or drills(if you're into that) get punished HARD. It doesn't take many hits for ganon to KO us as long as he can optimize his punish game. I try to only shuttle loop after confirming with DA, uair, ftilt, or dtilt. Same with tornado of course, confirm it first or use to punish an air dodge.

Also, I noticed ganon users aren't afraid to whiff up smash. The hitbox has great vertical coverage to discourage dair camping and the cool down on it is something like our fsmash. It's kind of a frame trap if you manage to spot dodge it and punish with anything slower than dtilt or ftilt. It's deceptively quick. Ganons ftilt and dtilt have great range on them and could KO. If your throw game or uair strings aren't air tight a mashed out nair or uair could interrupt. Flame choke games are dumb until you practice the timing to tech roll, and even then, we have to deal with a tech chase situation. During neutral, I like to stay slightly out of ganons ftilt range and float around just low enough to make them want to uair me and punish with bair. However, ffing bair to spike ganon doesn't seem to work too well. Sometimes ganon simply lands on his feet and when I walk up to begin chaining dtilts, I catch a surprise grab or jab to the face.

When dtilt enters its tumble stage at 116%, shuttle loop doesn't seem to finish ganon as consistently as with other characters. So I just dcape instead; it feels safer. We need to open ganon a lot, but once we get him off stage it's almost free. As long as we keep an eye out for ganoncide, it's difficult for ganon to compete with dair and bair offstage; his recovery options make trades terrible. Uair is good for swatting a gimping MK but ganons recovery demands very little usage of aerials before up b. Please note: if you trump ganon and force him to regrab the ledge, don't fsmash. It will whiff. Instead, run offstage and immediately hit him with raising dair for a potential stage spike. I do raising dair in case they tech, you will be in position to double jump turnaround bair.

I only get to play against 2 decent ganons so my MU experience is very limited. Can someone share their 2 cents on ganon please? Sorry I really don't want to leave the batcave just to explore this MU on their threads lol.

 

[arncakes]

How is Roy easy to kill off stage? How do you hit him out of his up-b? To me, it seems like Roy can combo MK easily.

 

[warionumbah2]

Sounds like you need to work on your edgeguard game, also can people just post this stuff on the social where every MK user goes to in general? Seems like this thread is getting spammed with the how is this in his favor or how is the even posts and then get little to no reply.

Invitations to other MU threads are fine here.

 

[Sykkamorre]

So you guys are discussing dorf?

So the guy who posted a few posts ago nailed a lot of important info, but i'll elaborate on a few things.

So, first of all: Ganon's usmash. Iirc it is actually the fastest overall smash attack in the game thanks to IASA frames. It's also completely safe on shield AND kills early AND is disjointed.

Now, offstage. We have trouble when we're recovering but it works both ways. Our offstage game on the offensive is one of the most powerful in smash. Fair and Nair are good for covering wide areas while dair is almost always a guaranteed kill. Our most dangerous attacks however are bair and the notorious tipman uair. Bair kills ludicrously early and is fast as hell, while the uair semi spike is invincible with the correct spacing.

Another move of note is DA, beats a lot of attacks, strong hit kills well whilst the weak hit sets up combos.

A recent discovery was also found called the TnS which i'd look into if you get the chance.

 

[Jamurai]

A recent discovery was also found called the TnS which i'd look into if you get the chance.

Looked into it, MK can do something similar using the first hit of Fair, or Dtilt, to knock people off platforms (has been termed "pratt falling"); here's a thread on it.