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Meta Knight Match-Up Discussion 11 | Mario

Katakiri

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Welcome to our Mario match-up discussion! :4metaknight:

"Let'sa go!"

Discuss character strengths, weaknesses, ground-game, air-game, and all things Plumber vs Bats here.

Got questions, opinions, or suggestions you want to share about other characters? Head over to the Meta Knight Match-Up Discussion Directory Thread or the Meta Knight Social/General Discussion; we're more than happy to help you.​

Rules, guidelines, and tips:

1. Be respectful of each other. No insults, no trolling, no flaming, or any of that nonsense.
2. Be aware that some of the discussions can and will be old, so don't call out someone for "wrong" data if that post was referring to say, patch 1.03 stuff.
3. Be impartial; learn to see things from other sides. So, don't boast about all the advantages. Notice weaknesses and strengths from both parties.
4. Stay on topic.
5. Have fun.
Frame Data to expand your mind!:
|:4metaknight:Hit Frames|:4mario:Hit Frames
Jab | 6, HYAYAYAYAYAYA, 30 | 2-3, 8-9, 12-13
Dash Attack | 7-11 | 6-9, 10-25
F-Tilt | 6, 12, 17 | 5-6
U-Tilt | 8-10, 8-14, 11-14 | 5-11
D-Tilt | 3-4 | 5-7
Side Smash | 24 | 15-17
Up Smash | 8, 12, 17 | 9-12
Down Smash | 4, 9 | 5-6, 14-14
N-Air | 6-7, 8-20 | 3-5 or 6-29
F-Air | 9, 12, 15 | 16, 17-20, 21
B-Air | 7-8, 13-14, 20-21 | 6-7, 8-10
U-Air | 6 | 4-8
D-Air | 4 | 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 25
Grab | 7-8 | 6-7
Dash Grab | 9-10 | 8-9
Pivot Grab | 9-10 | 9-10
 

Bonk!

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I think this matchup is 60:40 in our favor. Mario's clear advantages are his advantage in neutral with fireballs and his nearly unpunishable aerials. One other oddity is that Mario and other characters with his size and weight aren't able to be comboed with a full hop up air into other up airs unless you fastfall an up air after a dash attack (just thought I'd point that out).
Our very big advantage over Mario is our edge game and grab combos. With these tools we can put on just as much pressure as Mario.
Just play patiently and you should be fine. Make sure you perfect shield those fireballs or just avoid them in general.
 

Ulevo

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Mario's primary weakness in this match up is two fold. He has a hard time in neutral if you perfect shield well and float above Fireball, as all his other attacks barring maybe well spaced back airs lose to Meta Knight's sword. He also really struggles to kill you, and has to get a read with up smash or forward smash, or catch you with down smash on a mistake.

One thing to note is that Mach Tornado is not very safe here. If you try to down air camp in to Mach Tornado, Mario can easily up smash you if you space incorrectly or he times it well. He will also get off big damage or a stock if you miss. He can also drop through it with neutral air if you're trying to catch him air dodging out of a juggle situation.

Be careful when recovering and don't throw out your Shuttle Loop or Drill Rush carelessly as Mario often like to charge FLUDD and prevent you from reaching the stage.

Tight spacing, avoiding the space above Mario, and knowing how to stay alive to get the most mileage out of a stock as possible are the keys to winning this match up. I feel it's 6:4 in our favor.
 

ZTD | TECHnology

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:4metaknight: vs :4mario:

Mario's biggest assets are his great mobility, his weight, a reliable projectile, a great out of shield game and his strong combo game. In neutral, you need to play in mid range a lot of bait out Mario's approaches. A majority of his aerials are very difficult to punish and all but two of his moves come out faster than frame 10. That's pretty ridiculous in itself. Playing in close range is really risky because Mario wants to grab you. Mario can reliably combo us well past mid percents. Up-Tilt combos don't really work as well here because below 10% or so we have enough time to shield or take another action. There is also the chance that due to our lightweight, we can jump out his string as well. Getting grabbed though, is really bad. Up-Tilts from Down Throw past 10-20 or so can lead to multiple Up Airs followed by a Super Jump Punch for additional damage. You're always in danger of being comboed reliably until like 90-100 or so but you'll want to take extra precaution to not let Mario get additional damage on you. Although Mario's Up Air is a pretty solid, Dair camping helps a lot here. Our ground speed is also going to be a big asset for punishing Mario. It's basically a lot baiting and switching between air to ground to create openings. It's a tricky matchup.

The other thing you need to watch out for in close range is his Jab. It's fast and it will pretty much beat out anything we'll want to do close range on the ground. You're better off resetting if you end up having to engage a grounded Mario while on the ground in neutral.

Fireballs are useful to Mario if he isn't spamming them mindlessly. If they get careless and we're close enough we get a free Mach Tornado. Drill Rush can be also be used for eating Fireball but the range where you'd want to use Drill Rush is the range where Mario has enough time to take an action and punish you for it. If Mario ever uses Fireball in the air from a full hop and you're close by, you can just aerial through it. Nair, Fair or Bair all work well. Mario is safest with Fireballs when short hopping them, using them infrequently, or using them at longer ranges.

Mario's aerial approaches are something to look out for as well. Dair links into all sorts of dumb stuff depending on the percents and that includes grabs and smashes. It's also has very little end lag and is difficult to punish on reaction even if you powershield it . Many Marios like to cross up your shield with this move so pay attention to that. Bair is also pretty good for spacing as its got nice range and it's fast. The brightside here is that our F-Tilt is really useful for zoning Mario's aerial approaches. Bair is still telegraphed and Mario's range in general is pretty bad. Our F-Smash is also really nice in this MU. It's actually difficult for Mario to punish it because of his lack of range. I use this move a little more liberally in this MU. Very helpful.

Respect Mario's out of shield game. Up Smash is a stupid move. Fast, powerful, hits quite far behind him (good Marios will Jump Cancel Pivot Up Smash for optimized punishes). Do not challenge this move, like ever. If you think it's coming, wait for it in mind range and DA/Dash Grab him instead. Also, you can expect Super Jump Punch if the Mario is trying to go for something faster. It's Frame 3 and has invincibility on it.

Our combo game on Mario works well and the fact that we combo reliably for longer than he does is a large part of why we keep up with him. Optimizing punishes on him is key since he's fat as well. Make sure you are precise with your combos as Mario can punish you with Nair or Super Jump Punch if you miss your timing. Alternatively, at low percents, you can bait out those and punish him for that.

Edgeguarding here is pretty weird. It's really hard for both sides to actually gimp each other but if one side messes up, that's a stock. On one hand, its actually hard to gimp Mario if they save their second jump and only use it when they have to. On the other hand, it is possible and you manage to hit him out his second jump, he's pretty much dead. You can sometimes catch them with F-Smash on the ledge as they Super Jump Punch back to the ledge. The move comes out on Frame 3 but the invincibility comes out on Frame 4. Keep that in mind. If you go off stage and chase directly, you'll rarely get anything substantial because they can just go through you with SJP. If you're going to try to actually go off stage and gimp, do it asap. If you want, you might as well just play the ledge game and see what they're going to do. If they recover high and use Fireball to cover themselves and you're close enough, you can easily go through the Fireball with an aerial or Nado and possibly kill them. I see this move as a mixup but it happens.

On the flip side, we have to be careful. If we mixup how we recover, we're fine. If ever get predictable, it can get bad. Tornado will get you Caped and/or FLUDDed easily if you're dumb with it. Same with Drill Rush. Shuttle Loop and Dimensional Cape are safest but Mario can hit you out of either with Nair due to how long the move lasts. Keep in mind this is a commitment so you're fine if you bait or if they miss with it. But basically, don't recover in the same way too many times or that's your stock. Mario can totally Cape you out of Shuttle Loop also. Other than that you should be fine. But do keep in mind something: Mario can sometimes DA at the ledge and its long lasting enough to go through your ledge invincibility and semi spike you from the ledge. It puts you in the a really bad position, even for Metaknight.

Basically, I just play really patient and bait out what Mario does. I treat this MU like Luigi except the punishment isn't as bad but Mario can actually constantly pressure and chase you due to his mobility. He's fat, so that is a something to take into consideration. He's got a nice, expansive combo game, and he's one of the few characters that can just outright kill us off stage if we make a mistake. And his moveset is overall faster. We have a better combo game, a zoning game, better range and we're more competent off stage. The range factor helps quite a bit because we get to play out of shield more because of Mario's poor range. That means you'll have an easier time getting those shield grabs and Loops. I also tend to land more Up-Smashes here than against most other characters for this reason. Both characters shine in many of the same categories but have some key differences.

Overall, I feel like it's a pretty even MU. I can maybe see the argument for 55:45 MU but I totally disagree with anything more than that. I still think it's 50-50 as of now. I play this MU with a very competent Mario, all the time.

EDIT: Random tidbit: Watch out for FLUDD. Specifically, if Mario ever reaches full charge with FLUDD, there is zero cooldown from that charge state. Some Marios will continue a charging from a partially charge FLUDD in an attempt to bait you and punish you because they act immediately after.
 
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Ulevo

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Just want to point out that if Mario tries to go for a sweet spot at the ledge with SJP we can reliably beat it with ledge drop reverse neutral air.

Do you know if Shuttle Loop will clank and travel through a full hop Fireball?
 

ZTD | TECHnology

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No.

Best case scenario: You will get hit by the Fireball and Mario will get hit by the first hit of Shuttle Loop.

The only way you really win in that scenario is if you read the Fireball and hit him before the actual move comes out. If you try too late you'll just be stopped by the Fireball and then followed up on. It's not really a good scenario to be in. You are far better off tossing out an aerial that you know will just beat the move.
 
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Ulevo

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In my mind I figured that we could angle a grounded Shuttle Loop forward, have the first hit clank with the Fireball and pass through it, then nail a Shuttle Loop on Mario.
 

The Shadow

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Mario just wants you to stand still, and be hit. This matchup for me is leaning 65-45 def in Metas favor.

Meta knight can just keep moving, and it'll leave Mario to just getting pressured.
 

Qazoo306

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One thing I know (from FG experience) is that jumping out of Mario's combos is more reliable than air dodging in most cases. His Down Throw -> Up Tilt -> ... Up Tilt can't (not 100% sure) be air dodged out of easily, but with good DI and a jump or two, your out of the up tilts and escape at much lower percents than much of the rest of the cast.
I think that for this MU you want to stay airborne most of the time because Mario starts most of his combos off of grabs and because he has a projectile (the projectile reason especially applies in customs due to the viability of the fast fireball being hard to dodge at close range). Not sure about an exact ratio because my experience only comes from FG, but 60:40 sounds about right based off of what I've said and what others have said.
 

busken

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Mario's primary weakness in this match up is two fold. He has a hard time in neutral if you perfect shield well and float above Fireball, as all his other attacks barring maybe well spaced back airs lose to Meta Knight's sword. He also really struggles to kill you, and has to get a read with up smash or forward smash, or catch you with down smash on a mistake.

One thing to note is that Mach Tornado is not very safe here. If you try to down air camp in to Mach Tornado, Mario can easily up smash you if you space incorrectly or he times it well. He will also get off big damage or a stock if you miss. He can also drop through it with neutral air if you're trying to catch him air dodging out of a juggle situation.

Be careful when recovering and don't throw out your Shuttle Loop or Drill Rush carelessly as Mario often like to charge FLUDD and prevent you from reaching the stage.

Tight spacing, avoiding the space above Mario, and knowing how to stay alive to get the most mileage out of a stock as possible are the keys to winning this match up. I feel it's 6:4 in our favor.
I pretty much second this. You can pretty much camp mario in nuetral if you know how to avoid the grab and fireball. Also, his horizontal recovery is bad so if he loses his double jump he's pretty much dead. I would say at 55:45
 

warionumbah2

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I forget people still us 55:45 as a slight advantage, 55:45 is basically saying its either even or in MKs favor since you can round it.

I say 60:40 because we have a clear slight advantage in this MU especially with the buffs improving our ledge coverage,fast fall and cqc game.
 

busken

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I forget people still us 55:45 as a slight advantage, 55:45 is basically saying its either even or in MKs favor since you can round it.

I say 60:40 because we have a clear slight advantage in this MU especially with the buffs improving our ledge coverage,fast fall and cqc game.
I guess if you master the mu u can say 60:40
 

Ulevo

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I would say 6:4. I have played players who are arguably better than me, skill wise, and either beat them cleanly or nearly beat them. I have also played players who were marginally worse than I was and two stock them on a consistent basis.

That being said I do not really care about the ratio.
 

New_Dumal

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Hi guys, sorry to bring this back, but what Mario right now (after 1.1.5) ?
Now we can't kill him from the elevator the same way, do less damage at general, and the metagame for Mario is constantly evolving. What you think is important to keep in mind in the MU, and do you think we still have this ?


-------------- Reason I want to discuss the Mario MU -----------------------
I'm trying to go for the ANTi speech and divide the roster in the 3 characters I play best (Sheik was my main since day 1 until the nerf, MK was my sencondary but I tried to main him since 1.1.5, and I have a decent Cloud).
MK is a character I trusted before against Mario and was never disapointed with the MU. But I'm unsure right now, because it seems that the nerfs where exactly where I think was important to keep this even/our favor.
I saw MK Leo changing to Marth against Ally, and I too got some problems with Mario lately.
 

Amadeus9

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Hi guys, sorry to bring this back, but what Mario right now (after 1.1.5) ?
Now we can't kill him from the elevator the same way, do less damage at general, and the metagame for Mario is constantly evolving. What you think is important to keep in mind in the MU, and do you think we still have this ?


-------------- Reason I want to discuss the Mario MU -----------------------
I'm trying to go for the ANTi speech and divide the roster in the 3 characters I play best (Sheik was my main since day 1 until the nerf, MK was my sencondary but I tried to main him since 1.1.5, and I have a decent Cloud).
MK is a character I trusted before against Mario and was never disapointed with the MU. But I'm unsure right now, because it seems that the nerfs where exactly where I think was important to keep this even/our favor.
I saw MK Leo changing to Marth against Ally, and I too got some problems with Mario lately.
Mario favored 5545 or 6040, mk can keep him out with walking and ftilting/fsmashing BUT if you do anything but this mario will easily convert any altercation into a lot of damage and then his usmash is pretty impossible to deal with from disadvantage.
 

Ulevo

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I thought we were making blanket statements with poorly conveyed match up analysis, so I skipped the analysis part.

If you wouldn't mind explaining yourself again.
 
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Amadeus9

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I thought we were making blanket statements with poorly conveyed match up analysis, so I skipped the analysis part.

If you wouldn't mind explaining yourself again.
Perpetuating personal vendettas rather than contributing in any meaningful way.

#justulevothings
 

Ulevo

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Your summary of the match up was that we cannot deal with Mario's up smash, which is ridiculous, and that we are relegated to using forward tilt and forward smash. How are you contributing in a meaningful way, exactly.
 

Drippy

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From my personal experience I see the matchup as around 50:50 but I could see it as in MK's favor as I get better. Ulevo Ulevo I'd like to see your reasoning because I've slowly been learning the matchup more and more and have been finding it easier as I practice it more. Also you may be able to provide some insight on the problems I'm having with it too.

From what I've learned playing the matchup, definitely relying on Ftilt / Jab / Fsmash as spacing tools is pretty crucial. I still often find myself struggling versus Mario's approaches though because Bair -> Bair / Ftilt / Uair or just SH Bairs and fadeaway is hard to deal with. I've often struggled with getting in as well because Bair / Ftilt / Fsmash / Jab from him can keep me out pretty well. Mario's SH Nair is also annoying if he does it from a close distance as it goes right over my Ftilt.

Slowly though I've been working on the spacing of my moves, and shieldgrabbing some of his approaches. I think the hardest apart is dealing with his Dair which I feel like I can hardly ever punish or his landing Dair -> grab and his cross-ups on shield with his aerials but I think working on my turnaround grabs + perfect shields to react faster to like moves like his Nair will probably help a lot more too versus the more aggressive Marios. I've actually don't have as hard of a time approaching Marios anymore too after playing more patient with my approaches and waiting for openings. I used to feel like Mario had a much easier time killing cause Pivot Fsmash > MK dash approaches and Usmash + Bthrow on ledge but as I've gotten better with MK, avoiding them have become a lot easier.

The main thing I probably still struggle with in the matchup is Mario's combo because seeing him deal so much damage easily puts me on tilt but I think that's something a lot of low level players like me struggle with and just one of the many walls to get around. Occasionally I still get caught by Usmash but I think I've just got to use my jumps better and landing cause having so many jumps makes landing so much easier. Punishing Dair / Bair / Ftilt still difficult for me and his Bair primarily can keep me walled out. Being trapped on the ledge is definitely a struggle for me. Landing kills which I've been getting in but sometimes they fall out and past %s of DA -> Up B it gets hard for me.

Most of my problems are probably fundamental-based though. Lately I've been going off-stage a lot more vs Mario if getting him off-stage and waiting for airdodge for Nair / Bair kills. I've been getting better at getting Up B kills from reading air dodges or punishing double jumps away.

EDIT: I think SH Fair / Bair could be some options that could help too. My Uair strings have been getting a slight bit more consistent but I still gotta work on them huge time. Writing out this post I'm definitely seeing it as MK's favor.
 
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Ulevo

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Mario has a difficult time challenging you directly. He has better frame data, but he does not have the mobility and disjoint range to make up for what Meta Knight has. Anytime he is in the air in full hop height or higher, he will lose to forward air. Down air and forward smash are all hard to deal with for Mario, and a lot of his approach options can be shield grabbed or baited with movement options. Mario's good at crossing up with moves like back air or down air, but you do not have to attempt to punish or challenge these if Mario's spacing is good; just reset to neutral and establish his patters and wait for him to mess up the spacing, mess up his spacing with movement options, or grab him if he messes up his approach.

Up smash should not be an issue in this match up. Meta Knight has five jumps so landing on him should not happen, and Mario cannot hit you with up smash on any platform in the game except maybe Lylats during some tilt transitions. If Mario tries to predict where you will land, you have Dimensional Cape. The only time up smash should be a legitimate threat is when Mario is using it to trade with dash attack and dash grab options when Meta Knight is at kill percent, but that just comes down to situational awareness, percent awareness, and knowing whether or not the risk is worth it (it usually is not).

Combo wise, if you are at 0% and Mario grabs you, you can hold down and away and buffer shield. Inexperienced Mario's will down throw and then try to up tilt repeatedly and you will perfect shield the second up tilt. If you are at 3% (got hit by a Fireball) this will not work, and you should smash DI up and away or up and in and mash jump to try and get out. This will prevent you from taking as much damage as you normally would. If he goes for up throw, smash DI the down air follow up downward.

Trying to challenge Mario off stage is actually difficult because Super Jump Punch has an obnoxious hit box. I only encourage doing so when Mario has lost his double jump. That being said, Mario can be guarded at the ledge relatively easily with safe options like waiting in shield, using forward smash, et cetera.

Juggling Mario is relatively risk free. It is not necessarily easy since his air speed is really good, but he cannot challenge anything you do so long as you are spaced below him properly. If he is going to try to mix up his landings then just predict where he will land and punish his landing.

If you have your optimal combos down then you should not be concerned about doing less damage to Mario than he does to you. Dash attack to up air links net a lot of damage and there are enough set ups against Mario to get this going.
 

Drippy

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Mario has a difficult time challenging you directly. He has better frame data, but he does not have the mobility and disjoint range to make up for what Meta Knight has. Anytime he is in the air in full hop height or higher, he will lose to forward air. Down air and forward smash are all hard to deal with for Mario, and a lot of his approach options can be shield grabbed or baited with movement options. Mario's good at crossing up with moves like back air or down air, but you do not have to attempt to punish or challenge these if Mario's spacing is good; just reset to neutral and establish his patters and wait for him to mess up the spacing, mess up his spacing with movement options, or grab him if he messes up his approach.

Up smash should not be an issue in this match up. Meta Knight has five jumps so landing on him should not happen, and Mario cannot hit you with up smash on any platform in the game except maybe Lylats during some tilt transitions. If Mario tries to predict where you will land, you have Dimensional Cape. The only time up smash should be a legitimate threat is when Mario is using it to trade with dash attack and dash grab options when Meta Knight is at kill percent, but that just comes down to situational awareness, percent awareness, and knowing whether or not the risk is worth it (it usually is not).

Combo wise, if you are at 0% and Mario grabs you, you can hold down and away and buffer shield. Inexperienced Mario's will down throw and then try to up tilt repeatedly and you will perfect shield the second up tilt. If you are at 3% (got hit by a Fireball) this will not work, and you should smash DI up and away or up and in and mash jump to try and get out. This will prevent you from taking as much damage as you normally would. If he goes for up throw, smash DI the down air follow up downward.

Trying to challenge Mario off stage is actually difficult because Super Jump Punch has an obnoxious hit box. I only encourage doing so when Mario has lost his double jump. That being said, Mario can be guarded at the ledge relatively easily with safe options like waiting in shield, using forward smash, et cetera.

Juggling Mario is relatively risk free. It is not necessarily easy since his air speed is really good, but he cannot challenge anything you do so long as you are spaced below him properly. If he is going to try to mix up his landings then just predict where he will land and punish his landing.

If you have your optimal combos down then you should not be concerned about doing less damage to Mario than he does to you. Dash attack to up air links net a lot of damage and there are enough set ups against Mario to get this going.

Thanks for the response. Definitely seeing this more as a matchup in MK's favor now that I really look at it. All my problems in the matchup were more of just me as a player and practicing the MU has improved my MK overall a ton. MK's speed, disjoints, and landing options already make it hard for Mario, it's more of just his approaches, cross-ups, and the tools he has to punish my approaches but now they're not nearly as big of a deal for me.
 
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Twisted Jokerr

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I'm going to put my two cents on this MU. I know the Mario MU inside and out, backwards and forwards. Here is a list of what you can punish and what you can punish it with.

:4mario: :4metaknight:
Move Punish
Dair Ftilt

Jab Grab/DAttack

Fireballs Tornado

Bair OoS(Out of Shield) Dair

Nair Shield Grab


Any comments on this will be taken notice. If I missed anything I'll edit this list down/up.
 
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