Melee Will Return For CEO 2015, Project M Dropped, Smash 4 Likely

[Azureflames]

Don't have the depth?... um.. depth compared to that 14 year old game? or the mod of the 6 year old game that was completely handed by fans to appeal to those who are in love with the 14 year old game?

I don't hate melee, i just like to angle my smash attacks
I don't have PM, I just like Megaman better.

First off, i have no idea what your point is? If you are denying the depth of melee you are a bit ignorant and/or stubborn about it. It is undeniable that melee has the most competitive viability and depth of any smash game. The points ive been trying to make in some of my posts are that people value different things in smash and that's what separates lots of people, noticably people that play melee vs PM vs smash4.

I don't really find smash4 fun and i tried really hard to like it. I was super hyped up until the 3ds release, played it for a couple months and couldnt get past the feel of how different of a game it is. i personally don't enjoy the mobility options, the lack of AT's, and the lack of combos past the "grab>throw>aerial> reset to neutral" style of smash4. i LIKE the high skill ceiling, difficulty, the high APM of the controls, and depth of melee/PM to the point where if it doesnt have it, i simply don't have much fun with it.

smash4 players typically dont care about the AT's of melee/PM for various reasons whether it be difficulty, frustration at the necessity of them even existing, or they just want to enjoy the game for what it is, and have fun in that regard. While the game can be played competitively to a degree, it wasnt made for it and doesn't shine in the ways it needs to to be as successful as melee or PM. There's nothing wrong with enjoying smash4 if you think it's fun. I'm not trying to bag on people who love the game. All im saying is that it lacks the kind of depth the other games have. I'll at least say it's muuuch better than brawl was.

also note that people enjoy the games and 'have fun' for different reasons. competitive viability, AT, mindgames, mobility options, high aggression, and balance are all more important to people in PM/melee (as well as other things i may be missing).


So, again...i didnt say smash4 had zero depth, but i said that melee/pm were far ahead in many aspects of the game in terms of the competitive viability and competitive potential. PM was straight up made for competitive play and melee is the benchmark for everything when it comes down to it.

 

[platomaker]

Sorry, I should've specified which smash attack, although the forward smashes and tilts are the ones that can be angled. Yes, I can confirm this as I and many others have a pocket Falcon for funzies.

As for your original question, Sakurai has made both Brawl and Smash 4 "less competitive" by changing or taking away Melee's mechanics. He also mentioned that he believed Melee was his best work, but that he wanted "everyone to win", and therefore lowered both the skill floor and ceiling. However, that doesn't mean that you can't or shouldn't play Brawl or Smash 4 competitvely.

I understand this statement came from the same guy who said melee was his last smash brothers game.
For people who set their own limits and make their own glass ceiling, how can you expect to see anything more from the game? I doubt anyone mastered melee when it first came out. Smash 4 is pushing out things like this:https://vine.co/v/Od3X2YT1F37

and this was only months after. Something like this could come to fruition.

 

[platomaker]

Sorry, I should've specified which smash attack, although the forward smashes and tilts are the ones that can be angled. Yes, I can confirm this as I and many others have a pocket Falcon for funzies.

As for your original question, Sakurai has made both Brawl and Smash 4 "less competitive" by changing or taking away Melee's mechanics. He also mentioned that he believed Melee was his best work, but that he wanted "everyone to win", and therefore lowered both the skill floor and ceiling. However, that doesn't mean that you can't or shouldn't play Brawl or Smash 4 competitvely.

I understand this statement came from the same guy who said melee was his last smash brothers game.
For people who set their own limits and make their own glass ceiling, how can you expect to see anything more from the game? I doubt anyone mastered melee when it first came out. Smash 4 is pushing out things like this:https://vine.co/v/Od3X2YT1F37

and this was only months after. Something like this could come to fruition.

First off, i have no idea what your point is? If you are denying the depth of melee you are a bit ignorant and/or stubborn about it. It is undeniable that melee has the most competitive viability and depth of any smash game. The points ive been trying to make in some of my posts are that people value different things in smash and that's what separates lots of people, noticably people that play melee vs PM vs smash4.

I don't really find smash4 fun and i tried really hard to like it. I was super hyped up until the 3ds release, played it for a couple months and couldnt get past the feel of how different of a game it is. i personally don't enjoy the mobility options, the lack of AT's, and the lack of combos past the "grab>throw>aerial> reset to neutral" style of smash4. i LIKE the high skill ceiling, difficulty, the high APM of the controls, and depth of melee/PM to the point where if it doesnt have it, i simply don't have much fun with it.

smash4 players typically dont care about the AT's of melee/PM for various reasons whether it be difficulty, frustration at the necessity of them even existing, or they just want to enjoy the game for what it is, and have fun in that regard. While the game can be played competitively to a degree, it wasnt made for it and doesn't shine in the ways it needs to to be as successful as melee or PM. There's nothing wrong with enjoying smash4 if you think it's fun. I'm not trying to bag on people who love the game. All im saying is that it lacks the kind of depth the other games have. I'll at least say it's muuuch better than brawl was.

also note that people enjoy the games and 'have fun' for different reasons. competitive viability, AT, mindgames, mobility options, high aggression, and balance are all more important to people in PM/melee (as well as other things i may be missing).


So, again...i didnt say smash4 had zero depth, but i said that melee/pm were far ahead in many aspects of the game in terms of the competitive viability and competitive potential. PM was straight up made for competitive play and melee is the benchmark for everything when it comes down to it.

didn't read the entire comment you posted since I just had to stop the presses and make this clear since you and I believe Dubs is misinterpreting what I said and before an entire chunk of the community jumps on this misinformation I'd like to say: I never downplayed melee to say that there is no depth. I will say this:

since the competitive elements rely on the list dubs put out then there is already restrictions in the game. Smash4/brawl has restrictions for lack of those, while melee players HAVE to use those skills to be competitive. It BECOMES the game, so much so that people shunned brawl for lack of those techniques. Is that agreeable?

I understand your opinion on smash 4 from your last paragraph. Melee and PM might be ahead in competitive aspects, but I say its only because the users let it not so much the game itself.

 

[platomaker]

Another thing, why isn't anyone debating PM in my comments? That would be more appropriate in this case since the whole thread is about it being dropped in favor of Smash 4? Which some have dubbed the "inferior game".

 

[Azureflames]

I understand this statement came from the same guy who said melee was his last smash brothers game.
For people who set their own limits and make their own glass ceiling, how can you expect to see anything more from the game? I doubt anyone mastered melee when it first came out. Smash 4 is pushing out things like this:https://vine.co/v/Od3X2YT1F37

and this was only months after. Something like this could come to fruition.



didn't read the entire comment you posted since I just had to stop the presses and make this clear since you and I believe Dubs is misinterpreting what I said and before an entire chunk of the community jumps on this misinformation I'd like to say: I never downplayed melee to say that there is no depth. I will say this:

since the competitive elements rely on the list dubs put out then there is already restrictions in the game. Smash4/brawl has restrictions for lack of those, while melee players HAVE to use those skills to be competitive. It BECOMES the game, so much so that people shunned brawl for lack of those techniques. Is that agreeable?

I understand your opinion on smash 4 from your last paragraph. Melee and PM might be ahead in competitive aspects, but I say its only because the users let it not so much the game itself.

EDIT: (incoming wall of text lol)

Just to point out something to a lot of people who don't think about it. Gifs/vines/combo videos like that in a lot of cases aren't legitimate. Not even refering to smash4 in particular. I've seen plenty of this in PM videos as well. That clip was a CP dedede that was basically a ragdoll. If anything this demonstrates some mobility and fast possibility for comboing, but in a practical sense...none of that SHOULD be possible. If you factor in DI and more importantly techs and techrolls, then theres no way that combo should work if it was against someone who knew to tech the ~3 opportunities he had/ could have buffer rolled away (can you even buffer roll in smash4?).


In some ways i can agree, but it might be a matter of perspective and perception. smash4/brawl had restrictions in what you could do because of lack of AT's. For melee it's no doubt you NEED to have good tech to even think about playing competitive. now, the argument whether it BECOMES the game may not be true. become a HUGE part of the game, sure.

There are a number of people that claim melee/PM advocates take the use of AT's as a platform to step up above those that cant do it and want an artificial barrier. But, despite there being a barrier, the necessity of a lot of the AT's are viewed more as tools for the player. There are plenty of people with amazing tech skill that get outplayed by people who just have a better grasp of the neutral or have a better punish game and lack lots of tech skill. This happens ALL the time and the low-mid level.

Something with the brawl transition from melee that a large majority of us dont understand fully is that a lot of melee players shunned brawl was more than just lack of techniques. There were less movement options everyone was more floaty, you could airdodge out of hitstun, and AT's didnt exist to the same degree as melee at all. It was a completely different game in a way. I get why they didn't like it and shunned the game back then.

The only smash that existed was 64 and melee so the natural expectation was that brawl would be this amazing successor to melee with the same depth and hype that the original had. Instead what happened was when the game came out the depth couldnt be reached because of those restrictions despite a lot of peoples efforts. The game felt different, more floaty, and combos seemed nonexistant when you compared melee to brawl then.

So i mean, you're kinda right in that respect. melee players didnt want to play brawl because brawl was not melee and could never be melee in its current state.

You also mentioned PM/melee being ahead in competitive aspects simply because the community wants it that way, while smash4 is being held back because there are lots of people outcrying against it's competitive viability. Honestly, you're right to some degree. No one really knows for sure when it comes down to it. I think it has potential (much much more potential than brawl for sure). If it does have longevity and the meta/competitive scene develops the game to make it work then thats great. Personally i just wish that everyone wouldnt be AS prideful about their respective games and respect the people that wanna play what they wanna play.

If you wanna play PM, play PM. If you wanna play melee, play melee. If you wanna play smash4, then you should damn well be able to play the game and not get scrutinized for it. but the same goes for playing any of the other games. When it comes to these hate arguments, no one is innocent.

 

[VinceX]

Reading this trainwreck in the comment section was entertaining, like always.

 

[platomaker]

EDIT: (incoming wall of text lol)

Just to point out something to a lot of people who don't think about it. Gifs/vines/combo videos like that in a lot of cases aren't legitimate. Not even refering to smash4 in particular. I've seen plenty of this in PM videos as well. That clip was a CP dedede that was basically a ragdoll. If anything this demonstrates some mobility and fast possibility for comboing, but in a practical sense...none of that SHOULD be possible. If you factor in DI and more importantly techs and techrolls, then theres no way that combo should work if it was against someone who knew to tech the ~3 opportunities he had/ could have buffer rolled away (can you even buffer roll in smash4?).


In some ways i can agree, but it might be a matter of perspective and perception. smash4/brawl had restrictions in what you could do because of lack of AT's. For melee it's no doubt you NEED to have good tech to even think about playing competitive. now, the argument whether it BECOMES the game may not be true. become a HUGE part of the game, sure.

There are a number of people that take the use of AT's as a platform to step up above those that cant do it and want an artificial barrier. But, despite there being a barrier, the necessity of a lot of the AT's are viewed more as tools for the player. There are plenty of people with amazing tech skill that get outplayed by people who just have a better grasp of the neutral or have a better punish game and lack lots of tech skill. This happens ALL the time and the low-mid level.

Something with the brawl transition from melee that a large majority of us dont understand fully is that a lot of melee players shunned brawl was more than just lack of techniques. There were less movement options everyone was more floaty, you could airdodge out of hitstun, and AT's didnt exist to the same degree as melee at all. It was a completely different game in a way. I get why they didn't like it and shunned the game back then.

The only smash that existed was 64 and melee so the natural expectation was that brawl would be this amazing successor to melee with the same depth and hype that the original had. Instead what happened was when the game came out the depth couldnt be reached because of those restrictions despite a lot of peoples efforts. The game felt different, more floaty, and combos seemed nonexistant when you compared melee to brawl then.

So i mean, you're kinda right in that respect. melee players didnt want to play brawl because brawl was not melee and could never be melee in its current state.

You also mentioned PM/melee being ahead in competitive aspects simply because the community wants it that way, while smash4 is being held back because there are lots of people outcrying against it's competitive viability. Honestly, you're right to some degree. No one really knows for sure when it comes down to it. I think it has potential (much much more potential than brawl for sure). If it does have longevity and the meta/competitive scene develops the game to make it work then thats great. Personally i just wish that everyone wouldnt be AS prideful about their respective games and respect the people that wanna play what they wanna play.

If you wanna play PM, play PM. If you wanna play melee, play melee. If you wanna play smash4, then you should damn well be able to play the game and not get scrutinized for it. but the same goes for playing any of the other games. When it comes to these hate arguments, no one is innocent.

exactly this, I didn't originally bring up wavedashing before for the same reason i didn't bring up tripping. They are already implied if "Melee" or "Brawl" or mentioned.

 

[platomaker]

Reading this trainwreck in the comment section was entertaining, like always.

tbh, even I forgot what we were originally talking about. Total derailment.

 

[Vaidya]

The only difference between a game and a mod is that people got paid to do the first one. And what "elitism"? If anything, it's a love letter to people who loved Melee's gameplay.

And who the heck are you to say what Smash games we should embrace anyway?

It's just people who can't get over Melee. If you truly are a Smash fan, you would accept Brawl for what it is. Liking Melee ONLY doesn't make you a Smasher, it makes you a fan of just one game. It's like saying you're a Pokemon fan when really only like Red/Blue.

 

[Vaidya]

To you it may be "just a mod", but to me it's still the best game I've ever played. The fact that it's a mod doesn't change that, and it's pretty closed-minded and disrespectful to hate on it and call fans elitists just for that. The only elitist here is you.

Lmao it's a fact that it's a mod. You can't call it a game.

 

[platomaker]

It's just people who can't get over Melee. If you truly are a Smash fan, you would accept Brawl for what it is. Liking Melee ONLY doesn't make you a Smasher, it makes you a fan of just one game. It's like saying you're a Pokemon fan when really only like Red/Blue.

Clearly silver/gold were the best games

 

[-Dubs]

It's just people who can't get over Melee. If you truly are a Smash fan, you would accept Brawl for what it is. Liking Melee ONLY doesn't make you a Smasher, it makes you a fan of just one game. It's like saying you're a Pokemon fan when really only like Red/Blue.

Well personally I'm not a Smash fan, and I don't call myself a Smash fan or a member of the Smash community. I didn't enjoy playing Smash, not even casually. But then I saw competitive Melee, which is the only reason I'm playing a game in the Smash Bros. series in the first place.

Please don't tell me to play games I don't enjoy ty

 

[MegaMissingno]

It's just people who can't get over Melee. If you truly are a Smash fan, you would accept Brawl for what it is. Liking Melee ONLY doesn't make you a Smasher, it makes you a fan of just one game. It's like saying you're a Pokemon fan when really only like Red/Blue.

You can't force me to play a game I don't enjoy. Sounds like you're the one who can't get over the fact that some of us have different preferences.

Lmao it's a fact that it's a mod. You can't call it a game.

Meaningless semantics. Do you have an actual point you were trying to make? I don't care if you want to try and call it "not a game", that doesn't change the fact that I love playing it more than anything else. And that's all that matters here.

 

[Alex Night]

You pretty much named the top 3 character which number 4 is sonic.

You're trying to tell me the game is as defensive as brawl then just ignore, oh wait sorry all these character good right now can pressure shields are fast and have combo games.

Not like the defensive aspects are bad for characters like Megaman or duck hunt dig to have.

Smash 4 has actual character diversity in design which is something Melee and PM really badly needed.

So a few snowflakes automatically brought aggression over defense and causes character diversity? Uh huh, sure. Smash 4 more so favors defense than offense. It's just much better with handling offense this time than Brawl ever did.

Dude, I never said that MegaMan was bad in that regard. I actually love MegaMan's design because he is designed for aggressive camping, not just literal camping like Villager.

PM with no diversity? So I guess Snake being tactical in his approaches and traps, Zelda laying traps, Wolf bringing an entirely different type of rush-down, Charizard bringing a great bait and punish game with an unrivaled air combo game, Lucario with an On-Hit Cancel system (Which is a vastly superior design than that absolutely stupid Aura Lucario design), or Ivysaur with walls and traps doesn't count as character design diversity, huh? Hell, even Ganondorf in Project M now feels canon and amazing with his Float causing pressure. Project M has plenty of character diversity and the next version is going to only be even more diverse.

That being said, I still find that Smash 4 is a good game. It's fun to play. However, things like the Rage mechanic just doesn't follow the competitive formula because the player who is "behind" on percent is given a crutch by being able to kill earlier with high percents. It's like everybody turns into Aura Lucario at high percents and all of a sudden, your opponent starts being less aggressive and gives you breathing room because you can now kill him at 90% instead of 120%. Granted that it isn't outragiously skewed, but it's still noticeable.

 

[BerzerkPixel]

on other news. SF5 will replace SF4 in major tournaments 2 years from now.

Tekken 7 will replace TTT2.

and Smash 4 will be replaced if not Smash 5, by 6 or 7 sometime in the future too.

Such is the truth in competitive FGs. Accept it, adapt and move on.
I can't see why there's so much issue with this.

Then why is Melee still being played hmmmm?

 

[RanserSSF4]

That being said, I still find that Smash 4 is a good game. It's fun to play. However, things like the Rage mechanic just doesn't follow the competitive formula because the player who is "behind" on percent is given a crutch by being able to kill earlier with high percents. It's like everybody turns into Aura Lucario at high percents and all of a sudden, your opponent starts being less aggressive and gives you breathing room because you can now kill him at 90% instead of 120%. Granted that it isn't outragiously skewed, but it's still noticeable.

I do agree about the Rage Mechanic. As much as I like that it rewards the player who's in the lead, it's a comeback mechanic that rewards the players losing, and personally, it's not a good mechanic in general. USF4 and other fighters have comeback mechanics, but compared to Rage, they're aren't very bad. I've adapted to the rage mechanic, but it's still a huge problem to me!

 

[Vashimus]

It's just people who can't get over Melee. If you truly are a Smash fan, you would accept Brawl for what it is. Liking Melee ONLY doesn't make you a Smasher, it makes you a fan of just one game. It's like saying you're a Pokemon fan when really only like Red/Blue.

Once again, who the heck are you to say who's a true Smash fan and who isn't? If I don't have fun playing a game, I won't play it; it doesn't matter how new it is.

I do accept Brawl for what it is. I don't like playing it, I don't fault people if they enjoy it, I don't go over to the Brawl boards to troll -- I really don't care. I leave them the hell alone.

You're also forgetting most of the people that play P:M were freaking Brawl players before! They were dissatisfied with the game, and thus P:M was created and those people moved onto it. If we can't get over Melee, why would we bother with PM in the first place? We'd just play Melee!

If you just don't like a game, that's fine. Play what you enjoy.

But if you're a person who takes pleasure in sabotaging other communities or seeing them do worse off compared to the game you like, then you're a disgusting human being.

 

[LimitCrown]

Exactly how much does the rage mechanic actually affect knockback?

 

[PootisKonga]

Exactly how much does the rage mechanic actually affect knockback?

Here's some examples

And a few more

 

[byebye]

Then why is Melee still being played hmmmm?

you too? go back and read from the start. you're like the 4th person to say that. hahahahaha.

 

[LimitCrown]

I wonder if stale-move negation was taken into account when the data was collected.

The rage mechanic, due to how it functions, isn't really a comeback mechanic.

 

[Crome]

Smash 4 is pushing out things like this:https://vine.co/v/Od3X2YT1F37

That was the god damn dankest CPU combo I've ever seen.

I wonder if stale-move negation was taken into account when the data was collected.

The rage mechanic, due to how it functions, isn't really a comeback mechanic.

No, it's exactly that. Knockback is improved when at a high percent. How is that not a comeback mechanic?

 

[Vaidya]

Once again, who the heck are you to say who's a true Smash fan and who isn't? If I don't have fun playing a game, I won't play it; it doesn't matter how new it is.

I do accept Brawl for what it is. I don't like playing it, I don't fault people if they enjoy it, I don't go over to the Brawl boards to troll -- I really don't care. I leave them the hell alone.

You're also forgetting most of the people that play P:M were freaking Brawl players before! They were dissatisfied with the game, and thus P:M was created and those people moved onto it. If we can't get over Melee, why would we bother with PM in the first place? We'd just play Melee!

If you just don't like a game, that's fine. Play what you enjoy.

But if you're a person who takes pleasure in sabotaging other communities or seeing them do worse off compared to the game you like, then you're a disgusting human being.

Lmao Melee faithfulness has really gotten to you dude.

You're kidding me, right? Brawl players? Oh please they never were. A player is someone who ENJOYS the game. Like if I don't like a game, but I played it, does that mean I'm a player for that game? No! Same logic applies here. They weren't players, they were Melee players who don't understand that not every game is like Melee.

I'm not sabotaging the community. So me defending ACTUAL ****ING GAMES means I'm an enemy? The real enemies are those who say "**** you Sakurai, I can make this game better than you." Those are the true a-holes.

Oh, and I don't mind people who play Melee. I love Melee. Just not bigots who think Melee represents Smash Bros.

 

[LimitCrown]

No, it's exactly that. Knockback is improved when at a high percent. How is that not a comeback mechanic?

It makes certain combos not work at higher percentages due to the knockback being increased. Also, you would need to be at a very percentage in order to take advantage of it to the fullest. At that point, a smash attack or any other move that deals high knockback would be able to KO you.

 

[Vashimus]

Lmao Melee faithfulness has really gotten to you dude.

You're kidding me, right? Brawl players? Oh please they never were. A player is someone who ENJOYS the game. Like if I don't like a game, but I played it, does that mean I'm a player for that game? No! Same logic applies here. They weren't players, they were Melee players who don't understand that not every game is like Melee.

I'm not sabotaging the community. So me defending ACTUAL ****ING GAMES means I'm an enemy? The real enemies are those who say "**** you Sakurai, I can make this game better than you." Those are the true a-holes.

Oh, and I don't mind people who play Melee. I love Melee. Just not bigots who think Melee represents Smash Bros.

You seriously you cannot be this dense. You're a clown and you've missed the point entirely, just stop.

People who like different games and dislike others are not your enemies. "Uhhh people don't like the real games and like the mod more, they're TERRIBLE PEOPLE" Cut the ****, this isn't grade school. If you play a game, you're a player of that game, that simple. And yes, many people who play PM were Brawl players. Many Project M Team Members were top Brawl players. The point of the mod was not to **** on Brawl, it was to make a proper competitive successor to Melee since Brawl ultimately didn't live up to it.

Guess what: I haven't turned on Melee in over a year, so you can spare me the generalizations. Many other PM players I know also don't play Melee that much either. Whether you liked Brawl doesn't change the fact Melee is the most popular competitive Smash game. It seems you're just having trouble coming to terms with reality. PM is a much better Smash game than Melee in my eyes, and the same for many others.

Sakurai isn't God's gift to video games. He was in charge for the development of the Smash games and got paid for it, that's it. While we appreciate all the work he has done, whether a game is official or not has no bearing on the quality of the game itself. If I don't like a product, I'm not going to play the product. I wish the Smash 4 competitive community a good future going forward, but I won't be a part of it. That's NOT sabotaging a community in the same way spreading hate and smothering it is.

Someone being disappointed for legitimate reasons should not have to take away from your enjoyment of the game, nor does it mean you should attack players who don't like it. Just shut up and play the damn game.

 

[Crome]

It makes certain combos not work at higher percentages due to the knockback being increased.

Okay. It still keeps people away from you.

Also, you would need to be at a very percentage in order to take advantage of it to the fullest. At that point, a smash attack or any other move that deals high knockback would be able to KO you.

Rage is at its max at 150%, and considering recovering at 100%+ in this game is pretty common I say it's noticeable.

You're right, it probably won't help someone come back for the win (Assuming both players 1 stock, but one at 0% and one at 150%) but the knockback will just make the game last longer.

You're kidding me, right? Brawl players? Oh please they never were. A player is someone who ENJOYS the game. Like if I don't like a game, but I played it, does that mean I'm a player for that game?

Yeah, they were. Mew2King was a brawl player. He knew it's flaws and that it lacked depth; but he played it anyway.

A lot of people moved on to brawl just because it was new. So when PM came out, people jumped on the PM bandwagon because it was new and had depth. It is honestly not that must of a stretch to see.

I'm not sabotaging the community. So me defending ACTUAL ****ING GAMES means I'm an enemy? The real enemies are those who say "**** you Sakurai, I can make this game better than you." Those are the true a-holes.

Putting Smash Bros. 4 at the forefront of the competitive community is sabotage. Smash bros is the black sheep of the FGC. Even when the best games are shown, we are still the black sheep. To get any respect in the FGC we need to be at our best. Smash Bros 4 is not our best. Why? Because after Melee smash bros game design went to a more casual route. Which is fine, I loved brawl as a kid and I love smash bros 4 now. But after Melee, all official smash games started to have intentionally low skill ceilings.

Do you know why tripping was such a big deal? It wasn't because it ****ed people over often; it rarely came up in tournament play. It was because tripping was the most obvious "**** you, this game is the fighting game version of mario kart." Now Smash Bros. 4 has removed tripping (and other such elements from Brawl) but it still has major flaws which keep it from being an amazing game.

Intentionally far throws

Intentionally big blastboxes

Intentionally good recoveries

Huge nerf to edge guarding

It's actually really sad. This game would be so good if those issues were fixed.

I'm not sabotaging the community. So me defending ACTUAL ****ING GAMES means I'm an enemy? The real enemies are those who say "**** you Sakurai, I can make this game better than you." Those are the true a-holes..

Sakurai has a horrible view on game design. He's trying to make a game anyone can pick up and win. That just isn't going to happen. Lowering the skill ceiling only makes high level play worse.

That's why L canceling is such amazing game design. You don't have to learn it if you don't want to. It's a barrier to competitive play. I played Melee for almost my entire life and I didn't know it existed until mid last year. These optional mechanics create 2 skill ceilings, a casual one and a competitive one. The casual one is just learning your fundamentals, your character and what his moves can do. The competitive one is on top of that, and is about match ups, AT, general game knowledge.

tl;dr

Melee is our best. We need to show our best. After Melee the games were intentionally made to not be competitive. (Of course they can be played competitively, but the games were not designed around casual play before Brawl)

Having a low skill ceiling is bad game design for everyone.

PS. This is smashboards. A majority of what I'm saying here only applies to competitive play.

Also, when I say "The game was designed to not be competitive" I am not saying it can't be competitive or it is bad in competitive play. Brawl had competitive play, and Smash 4 has had competitive play since day one of the japanese 3DS launch. I just mean the games are designed to focus on casual play.

 

[Vaidya]

Okay. It still keeps people away from you.

Rage is at its max at 150%, and considering recovering at 100%+ in this game is pretty common I say it's noticeable.

You're right, it probably won't help someone come back for the win (Assuming both players 1 stock, but one at 0% and one at 150%) but the knockback will just make the game last longer.


Yeah, they were. Mew2King was a brawl player. He knew it's flaws and that it lacked depth; but he played it anyway.

A lot of people moved on to brawl just because it was new. So when PM came out, people jumped on the PM bandwagon because it was new and had depth. It is honestly not that must of a stretch to see.



Putting Smash Bros. 4 at the forefront of the competitive community is sabotage. Smash bros is the black sheep of the FGC. Even when the best games are shown, we are still the black sheep. To get any respect in the FGC we need to be at our best. Smash Bros 4 is not our best. Why? Because after Melee smash bros game design went to a more casual route. Which is fine, I loved brawl as a kid and I love smash bros 4 now. But after Melee, all official smash games started to have intentionally low skill ceilings.

Do you know why tripping was such a big deal? It wasn't because it ****ed people over often; it rarely came up in tournament play. It was because tripping was the most obvious "**** you, this game is the fighting game version of mario kart." Now Smash Bros. 4 has removed tripping (and other such elements from Brawl) but it still has major flaws which keep it from being an amazing game.

Intentionally far throws

Intentionally big blastboxes

Intentionally good recoveries

Huge nerf to edge guarding

It's actually really sad. This game would be so good if those issues were fixed.



Sakurai has a horrible view on game design. He's trying to make a game anyone can pick up and win. That just isn't going to happen. Lowering the skill ceiling only makes high level play worse.

That's why L canceling is such amazing game design. You don't have to learn it if you don't want to. It's a barrier to competitive play. I played Melee for almost my entire life and I didn't know it existed until mid last year. These optional mechanics create 2 skill ceilings, a casual one and a competitive one. The casual one is just learning your fundamentals, your character and what his moves can do. The competitive one is on top of that, and is about match ups, AT, general game knowledge.

tl;dr

Melee is our best. We need to show our best. After Melee the games were intentionally made to not be competitive. (Of course they can be played competitively, but the games were not designed around casual play before Brawl)

Having a low skill ceiling is bad game design for everyone.

PS. This is smashboards. A majority of what I'm saying here only applies to competitive play.

Also, when I say "The game was designed to not be competitive" I am not saying it can't be competitive or it is bad in competitive play. Brawl had competitive play, and Smash 4 has had competitive play since day one of the japanese 3DS launch. I just mean the games are designed to focus on casual play.

Yeah, I get what you mean. I really do wish the game was a little more competitive as well. And I'm all for competitive smash, I love playing For Glory all the time, it's all I can play on the 3DS version.

But still, I can see where Sakurai is coming from. From a purely business standpoint, you want to appeal to your biggest fanbase: casual. In the end, casuals will be dominant, as that's how it's been traditionally. If the competitive fanbase is vocal and large, I'm sure Sakurai will appeal to them. And he is in a way, as For Glory is a thing, along with Omega stages. Granted Omegas aren't perfect, they're a step in the direction.

If people in competitive can be more vocal, then there's a chance for the next Smash to go back to Melee roots potentially. Nintendo obviously recognizes the community. We have patches to actually balance the roster. That's amazing.

I respect your opinion, you bring up some great points. If only more people could be more like you.

 

[byebye]

Intentionally far throws

Intentionally big blastboxes

Intentionally good recoveries

Huge nerf to edge guarding

one thing I loved about those changes, you kill players now when you made the red lightning appear. like a "BOOM" (then the kill). it is less frequent to kill on a gimp now.

it is more exciting to see the lightning kill and meteor smashes than the sorry you can't grab my ledge kills IMO. kill by "smash"ing the opponent than kill by hanging on the ledge. key word is smash.

 

[-Dubs]

I'm not sabotaging the community. So me defending ACTUAL ****ING GAMES means I'm an enemy? The real enemies are those who say "**** you Sakurai, I can make this game better than you." Those are the true a-holes.

Oh, and I don't mind people who play Melee. I love Melee. Just not bigots who think Melee represents Smash Bros.

PMDT modded Brawl for fun, not to give Sakurai the finger. They never expected to grow this big.

Yes, Melee doesn't represent Smash Bros. But it is certainly the face of competitive Smash Bros.

 

[-Dubs]

one thing I loved about those changes, you kill players now when you made the red lightning appear. like a "BOOM" (then the kill). it is less frequent to kill on a gimp now.

it is more exciting to see the lightning kill and meteor smashes than the sorry you can't grab my ledge kills IMO. kill by "smash"ing the opponent than kill by hanging on the ledge. key word is smash.

And one thing I hate about these changes is that I cannot kill by DBZing a character across the screen into a spike. Also, I thought Axe's gimps vs SilentWolf were pretty hype. Tight match if you haven't seen it already.

 

[platomaker]

Edge guarding isn't nerfed though, the snap onto ledge is a bit more annoying for sure but also as soon as someone jumps onto the ledge whoever is just lagging about on the ledge first gets popped off at a particular angle. There isn't much they can do during this time which means they are extremely vulnerable.

Its a bit different, and to edgeguard is more an active role, but its not necessary nerfed if the right timing is utilized.

On the flipside, its either this or more planking.

 

[MegaMissingno]

Oh, and I don't mind people who play Melee. I love Melee. Just not bigots who think Melee represents Smash Bros.

But nobody in this thread has said anything like that. We're just saying we don't care for Brawl/4 and like Melee and PM much more. We're just saying we want to play PM, and now there's all these posts in here blasting our game and saying it's so wonderful for tournaments to be dropping us.

 

[hype machine]

When I see smash 4 all I see is amazing graphics, a great character cast, a huge soundtrack gone to waste because of a ****ty engine.

 

[RanserSSF4]

When I see smash 4 all I see is amazing graphics, a great character cast, a huge soundtrack gone to waste because of a ****ty engine.

at least it's not as bad as Brawls engine. It was awful IMO for competitive play. It isn't as good as Melee's or PM's engine, but at least it's better than Brawls!

 

[Kos-MosPlushie]

I'm curious, has Nintendo ever given any official word on Project M? What with it being the biggest Smash mod out there, not to mention it looks like some of the custom moves in 4 mimic Project M redesigns.

 

[hype machine]

at least it's not as bad as Brawls engine. It was awful IMO for competitive play. It isn't as good as Melee's or PM's engine, but at least it's better than Brawls!

Yea il agree its a much better improvement compared to brawl. I'm just a bit salty that project m might die. It sucks because there is no melee scene but a decent pm scene where i live but some of them are transferring to the smash 4 scene and the smash 4 scene is huge where I live. So yea

 

[RanserSSF4]

Yea il agree its a much better improvement compared to brawl. I'm just a bit salty that project m might die. It sucks because there is no melee scene but a decent pm scene where i live but some of them are transferring to the smash 4 scene and the smash 4 scene is huge where I live. So yea

PM won't die at all. It will still continue to grow and stay strong. This was a similar case to Melee. Just because a new Smash game has been getting spotlight over the others doesn't mean the other scenes are dead. I can understand your point since something like this happened when Brawl came out and Melee was slowly dying down, but a couple years down the line, and the support Melee received from it's community revived it and it's still going strong despite Smash 4 being new and getting lots of views and entrants. Today, I personally don't see it happening to PM anytime soon, and even if it does happen, just do whatever you can to revive it back, similar to Melee!

Just so you know, I do like Smash 4 competitively, even way more than Brawl, but I still prefer PM and Melee simply because they're better. Similar case to Injustice compared to MK9. I like Injustice competitive wise, but I still prefer MK9 because it's better.

 

[minilabs]

It's breathtaking to see Melee still show up at big tourneys like this. The game is about 13 or 14 years old and is still showing up.

 

[Crome]

It's breathtaking to see Melee still show up at big tourneys like this. The game is about 13 or 14 years old and is still showing up.

this may be the first post that talks about Melee showing up at CEO rather than PM's absence or 4's presence lol.

 

[BSP]

Putting Smash Bros. 4 at the forefront of the competitive community is sabotage. Smash bros is the black sheep of the FGC. Even when the best games are shown, we are still the black sheep. To get any respect in the FGC we need to be at our best. Smash Bros 4 is not our best.

Melee is our best. We need to show our best. After Melee the games were intentionally made to not be competitive. (Of course they can be played competitively, but the games were not designed around casual play before Brawl)

I would agree with this if an actual "we" or "our" existed, but there's this "only one" mentality that floats about at non smash focused tournaments that kills any possible unison between the smash games.

Sharing the limelight doesn't seem to be a possibility. I wouldn't expect a significant amount of players to support the games they don't like or play at a small cost to their own.

If "our" goal is to look good to the FGC, putting Melee in the forefront is the best idea because it looks the best with its speed, tech, etc. The only problem is that for those of us that don't play Melee, our game(s) get kicked to the curb, and we can't expect mutual support when it comes to our case, making it self-detrimental to support a fellow smash game. Not to say Melee is the bad guy, it applies to any smash game that gets promoted over the others.

This only one mentality makes it stupid to support any game that's not your own because it hurts you. Then we end up with all of this bickering because we're competing for spots at big tournaments.

I wonder why the big FGC tournaments like EVO and others that can't run multiple smash games in a single year just alternate them, because most of them have significant followings that get left out for whatever reason or another. It's sad and probably a significant root in the hate that goes around.

Now Smash Bros. 4 has removed tripping (and other such elements from Brawl) but it still has major flaws which keep it from being an amazing game.

Intentionally far throws

Intentionally big blastboxes

Intentionally good recoveries

Huge nerf to edge guarding

It's actually really sad. This game would be so good if those issues were fixed.

Why are these flaws?

Yea il agree its a much better improvement compared to brawl. I'm just a bit salty that project m might die. It sucks because there is no melee scene but a decent pm scene where i live but some of them are transferring to the smash 4 scene and the smash 4 scene is huge where I live. So yea

PM is not going to die unless all of its players stop playing, which won't happen if they care about the game as much as it seems. So what it won't be at Apex or CEO? Keep playing it anyway.

Edge guarding isn't nerfed though, the snap onto ledge is a bit more annoying for sure but also as soon as someone jumps onto the ledge whoever is just lagging about on the ledge first gets popped off at a particular angle. There isn't much they can do during this time which means they are extremely vulnerable.

Only problem is that a ledge attack, roll, or jump can be buffered before getting trumped, and you won't get trumped. Not sure why they made it that way.