2013 Community Tier List

[Divinokage]

i dunno why trail thinks peach is so good since the only peach player in his state is garbage

How is that relevant to make a proper statement about a character? lol.

 

[Kimimaru]

Recent tournament placings:I put the ice climbers above falcon because of their high technical ceiling and their grab combos' ability to change the outlook of a game from a single grab (much like a jiggs rest). I feel that of all the characters outside of the top tier, the climbers have the most potential to attain top tier status as this game continues to evolve. They are just an amazing character with or without chain grabs. They hit harder than gannon (when together), but they are extremely fast and have the best wavedash in the game (not as long as luigi's, but they have much more precise control over it).

I may be wrong, but from this post I feel that you're ignoring the IC's biggest weakness, which is losing Nana. Nana has a very low level CPU AI and can do many random things that can throw off your desynch and cause her to get killed. There's also a very strong strategy to beating ICs which is separating them or taking out Nana as soon as possible. When Nana is killed, you're left with Popo alone, who isn't much of a threat. I'm sure you know the character better than I do, but I'm curious if you really think that a semi-consistent (consistent as in either good or bad depending on whether you have Nana or not) character like ICs is better than a more consistent character like Falcon.

 

[CyberZixx]

Ado, I really liked your post. I would like to read the follow up to the falcon conversation. How long ago was it on the falcon boards?

 

[BTmoney]

Ado, I really liked your post. I would like to read the follow up the falcon conversation. How long ago was it on the falcon boards?

it's in the PM falcon boards. it's in the thread "what do melee players think of falcon" it should either be on the last page or the page before it lol i'd link to it but i'm on my phone

 

[FourStar]

Man, I can tell you're new
I used to LOVE Aniki when I was new too lol

i sort of have bias due to me being japanese LOL. i love the japanese players hahaha

 

[Uranium235]

Well i posted on here earlier but never gave out a tier list so i figure ill do that before the deadline.
First let me say that i am a novice, i have not been to a tournament once and therefore have not placed in a tournament before.
I dont now who to compare myself to as an equal but ill hopefully figure that out someday.
In spite of all this though, i hva e been following the competitive scene for a while so im going to make a list based off of my observation, so here it is:

Fox - Foxy is just too fast to be anywhere but #1/2

Falco - i honestly almost put him at #1 but due to a worse recovery and overall weaker moves fox beat him out. Still has incredible speed and combos though.

Marth - aerial power and reach provides for a good check to the other top tiers

Shiek - great speed and comboability etc.

Peach - a little slower than those above her, but still has great power and aerials

Jigglypuff - moved down due to slower speed, but is still great in the air

Ice climbers - great comboability moves them above falcon

Captain falcon - overall great power, just has slower attacks than those above him (not to say that he's slow, he is most certainly not)

Samus - samus has some great potential, recovery and all

Doctor mario - i like the pills, and he is really a buffed up mario that could see some possible high placings in the future (its slim but it could happen)

Pikachu - great recovery etc.

Ganondorf - i think ganon has a lot of potential, but hes not good enough right now to compete with the best

Luigi - great recovery, long wavedash is unique..

Donkey Kong - great power but poor vertical recovery and speed aside from a few moves

Link - i see some interesting possibilities from link and his variety of projectiles and good aerials, but is still slow

Mario - he may not deserve to be this low, but i only put him here due to his superior clones, he doesnt seems to do anything that doc cant do better

Mewtwo - may seem a bit high, but great recovery and diversity puts mewtwo outside of the bottom tier zone

Young link - cant do much of anything better than link, but is still a bit faster, not enough though

Yoshi - i like his moves, and can see some good coming from him

Zelda - slow, but has some good moves

Roy - some good aerials, great killing power. Wont say anything about counter, ive learned my lesson

Bowser - a bit high it may seems, but i love his ability to grab with koopa claw. Up-b is great for killing too

Game and Watch - recovery is ok, alright ko power but not too much else

Ness - i guess pk flash could be an okay ledgeguard, but again ness doesnt have much going for him

Kirby - good recovery, unique ability to copy anyones neutral b, but itd be cool if he could copy all the other b attacks too, because his suck

Pichu - pretty much a nerfed pikachu that hurts itself, has some gimpy moves but just isnt good enough to rise from the very bottom

 

[G3TL05T]

1. Jigglypuff - Darn Hungrybox
2. Fox - Only disadvantage is Falco.
3. Falco - Only disadvantage is Marth
4. Marth - Chain grabs space animals, only real disadvantages are Sheik and C. Falcon, but the Captain only has a slight advantage, and Sheik's advantage is exaggerated.
5. Sheik - Space animals beat her by a little, but she has a decent, although exaggerated advantage against Marth

6. Peach
7. Ice Climbers - Chain grab :D
8. Captain Falcon - I think he has a slight advantage against Marth, which keeps Marth below Fox
9. Dr. Mario - That cape

10. Pikachu - Underestimated - awesome edgeguarder, can quick attack to ledge hog in an instant, and had great recovery, although you have to grab the edge from above to prevent having a massive hitbox
11. Samus - Amazing recovery
12. Ganondorf

13. Mario - That cape
14. Link

15. Young Link
16. Luigi
17. Donkey Kong

18. Zelda
19. Mewtwo
20. Roy
21. Mr. Game & Watch
22. Yoshi

23. Kirby
24. Ness
25. Pichu
26. Bowser

This is my opinion for tournament potential, because I do not consider this to be a ranking of the order of the best characters (That would be whoever has the best advantage to disadvantage ratio), just the ones that would be most successful in tournament play.

 

[G3TL05T]

I advise against that or at least discrediting unsubstantiated posts or claims. I'm ALL for a sub forum to discuss this new tier list specifically where you would have to get posting rights like in the debate hall or wherever . That sounds great actually wink wink. And this way only people who really care will get their opinions documented. (i.e. someone who made their list in 5 minutes with shallow explanations shouldn't be equal in weight to someone who took an hour and explained their rankings)

That would be great, and noobs could learn there too so that in time, they could help form a better tier list.

 

[Nintendude]

I'd watch Gannon 0 to death combo a space on my ****ing honeymoon if such an instance were to eer occur.

this is the best quote of the thread lmfao

 

[.tea©]

I play the game competetively since 2005. I have been improving a lot since I moved to Vienna in October 2011 which has a quite active Melee community. Since then I basically never placed below Top 3, I didn´t enter any "major" tournaments though.

Top placings:
-First or second place at numerous local tournaments
-Third place at OSmash #2 which had 50 - 60 entrants (biggest German tournament in 2012), I only got outplaced by Ice and Ravenlord

Contact as personal reference: Ice

My list:

Falco
Sheik
Fox
Marth
Jiggs

Peach
Ice Climbers
Captain Falcon

Dr. Mario
Pikachu
Samus
Ganondorf

Luigi
Mario
Link

Donkey Kong
Young Link
Mewtwo

Zelda
Roy
Ness
Mr. Game and Watch
Yoshi

Kirby
Bowser
Pichu

I would like to explain my thoughs but it would take a lot of time and the deadline is today, so...

 

[Armada]

R
The best player in the world plays peach for a reason, she's really damn good. When played at a high level, few characters can deal with her defensive techniques and the amazing priority on her moves that can be fully utilized via float canceling. The top 3 in the cast are seperated by the smallest of margins, peach struggles with mobility in certain instances, this can cost lesser skilled peach players in high level play.

Well my reasons for playing Peach was not because she was top 3 or something like that.
I realized my Peach was still better then my Marth after 1 year with Marth practice and Peach was someone I played way less during this time (She was my team char since double Marth sucks in teams).

When I first decided to pick Peach up (again) most people were convinced she could never win anything big but I did feel those people were wrong. Since I felt they were wrong and I had faith in her and me I wanted to prove it for everyone else too. I still had her as 6th place (actually one place lower then the tierlist gave her credit for) but I did think the gap to the other chars above was not THAT huge.

To this day I still would have had Peach at 6th place on my tierlist and I guess I "proved" she could win tournaments in America too. I can't agree with her being that good though.

In NTSC (Since that is the version this list is for) I would say she has one winning MU in the top 8. She is beating ICs for sure.
I would say she goes about even with Falco (can see either char win slightly but would say even). The rest of the cast in top 8 she is losing to (according to me).

Just wanted to point out that me playing Peach was not because I know she was top 3 or something like that. I did feel I had a better understanding of the char back then (early 2007 when I started with her again) and I would say I at least have it now.

Did not try to sound harsh or anything. Your first part of that post could also be seen from another perspective then I saw it so if I missunderstood it I excuse for that.

 

[Divinokage]

What? Double Marth sucks? Team Meatgrinder! You can do so many sick combos, cmon! lol.

 

[JamesBJames]

Fox
Falco
Sheik
Peach
Puff
Marth

Falcon
ICs
Doc
Ganon
Pikachu
Samus

Mario
Luigi
DK
YL
Zelda
Link
Mewtwo
Yoshi

Roy
G&W
Pichu
Bowser
Ness
Kirby

 

[Armada]

What? Double Marth sucks? Team Meatgrinder! You can do so many sick combos, cmon! lol.

This was back in mid 2005 to early 2007 basically

But yeah double Marth still sucks
F-smash combos back and forth with double Marth is hilarious though!

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

I want to understand why people are still putting yoshi so low? .tea@ moved him down below g&w while there are yoshi mains out there doing pretty well showing he is a far more solid character then most if not all of the low tier he is currently part of.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

*list n stuff*

I assume this is a PAL tier list?

 

[.tea©]

I want to understand why people are still putting yoshi so low? .tea@ moved him down below g&w while there are yoshi mains out there doing pretty well showing he is a far more solid character then most if not all of the low tier he is currently part of.

Yeah, I feel pretty uncomfortable about that vote. I haven´t seen any Vman videos from APEX because I didn ´t find any except those friendlies with Leffen. On the other hand I think Yoshi is a bit overhyped after Vman´s combo video. And I saw Mofo ****** TAI with Ness and The Phenom and Qerb doing awesome stuff with Mr. Game and Watch. These characters are all pretty close in skill in my opinion. It´s hard to say which one has the most potential.

I assume this is a PAL tier list?

It´s meant to be a NTSC tier list. :D I haven´t played NTSC that much but I have been watching tons of videos. Anyways I think you could apply that list to both PAL and NTSC since the changes don´t affect the general ranking in my opinion. Sheik and Fox might have worse match ups in PAL, Peach and Puff might be better but I don´t think it changes the tier list. The differences aren´t big enough to affect the tier list as it is just an ordinal scale.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

Yeah, I feel pretty uncomfortable about that vote. I haven´t seen any Vman videos from APEX because I didn ´t find any except those friendlies with Leffen. On the other hand I think Yoshi is a bit overhyped after Vman´s combo video. And I saw Mofo ****** TAI with Ness and The Phenom and Qerb doing awesome stuff with Mr. Game and Watch. These characters are all pretty close in skill in my opinion. It´s hard to say which one has the most potential.



It´s meant to be a NTSC tier list. :D I haven´t played NTSC that much but I have been watching tons of videos. Anyways I think you could apply that list to both PAL and NTSC since the changes don´t affect the general ranking in my opinion.

i first just want to say i didnt mean to single you out, i just used you as an example b/c you were just a couple posts above me.

While it is true you might see videos of mofo making ness look good, there are simply far more yoshi's doing well in their regions (and making hom look good). lil fumi, vman, angel, leffen b4 he stopped playing, and aMSa to name a few. I think this shows its not just vman and that yohsi might be a solid character.

 

[Habefiet]

Habefiet AKA Vanilla Bryce reporting in

I suck and I know I suck but apparently we don't care about that for the purposes of this discussion

CREDS:

--Have taken games off of a few PR ranked MN players and took a set off of a guy who was ranked ninth at the time (but he wasn't playing his main, presumably because he was expecting to faceroll me since he had never met me before)
--Beat four people in my R1 pool at FC, go me
--Took a stock off Hax using Rollout, in tournament (pools at FC), when he presumably was not trying very hard and may not have even been looking at the screen
--Have been bitten by a tiger
--Have been familiar with the scene much longer than my join date would suggest but wasn't able to attend tournaments for most of that time and the MN scene is kinda small/dead hence my continued suckage
--Players I consider to be roughly equal in skill are anyone else who was roughly on the bubble in their R1 pools at FC-Legacy, AKA people who beat all casuals for free and who do okay against low level players but get scraped by anyone else


1. Falco
2. Fox
3. Sheik
4. Marth

5. Jigglypuff
6. Peach
7. Captain Falcon

8. Ice Climbers

9. Samus
10. Doctor Mario
11. Pikachu
12. Ganondorf
13. Luigi
14. Mario
15. Young Link

16. Link
17. Donkey Kong
18. Yoshi
19. Zelda
20. Mewtwo
21. Mr. Game & Watch

22. Roy
23. Ness
24. Pichu
25. Kirby
26. Bowser

Extremely abridged reasons behind particular placements:

Falco > Fox: Lasers are good, most spectacularly free autocombos in the game

Jigglypuff at #5: Limited ground game and difficulty truly comboing some characters forces her to be more heavily reliant on the opponent's mistakes and on reads rather than full option coverage than Sheik/Marth

Samus > Doc : Doc has fewer safe/good options both recovering and edgeguarding. This is a big deal.

Pikachu > Ganon: Ganon's lower maneuverability makes him more reliant on reads and mistake punishment, Pikachu's speed/combos/etc. are all better than once conceived and he doesn't suffer some of the glaring problems that Luigi/Mario do (horrendous recovery, difficulty getting kills). Considered putting Ganon even lower.

YL > Link: Speed advantage keeps him from getting trapped as easily and gives him an easier time regaining lost ground.

DK at #17: DK has few options. DK has bad options. The Links have bad options, but at least they have a respectable enough supply of bad options to force mistakes and net the occasional surprise. This character sucks.

Roy at #22: Terrible. Yes, he has a good dash dance game. If wire frames had a good dashdance they'd still be terrible. His few redeeming features (the DD, okay edgeguarding, weird combos off d-tilts and bizarro aerials, etc.) are destroyed by the terribleness (useless recovery, generally useless combos and useless aerials, stronger at the center, autocomboed, can't handle platform camping, blah blah you guys already know)

Yoshi at anywhere-that-the-sudden-upswelling-of-Yoshi-apologists-don't-want-him: Look I put him above Zelda and Mewtwo what more do you want (and Roy but that's more because I think Roy is even worse). I do think that he's better than those characters but I don't think that'll cause a great deal of contention so I won't bother delving into that, but some people are taking it as a given that Yoshi should be somewhere up around Luigi and I have absolutely no clue why. Yes he's got some really neat tricks, but no, no matter what people are telling themselves, we have not seen many of these consistently executed helpfully at a high level. I am not a results-based person regarding the structure of the tier list, but I am a possibility-based person, and right now I see no reason to believe that some of the recent discussion on Yoshi is going to result in anything too terribly applicable. It's the Bowser Effect. Bowser has a couple neat tricks that are unique to his character, and yet he's still debatably the worst character in the game. The idea of moving Yoshi from effectively bottom tier to semi-viable overnight without any apparent shifts in his metagame is too much for me. I don't buy it yet.

There the end ask me questions or ignore this post entirely w/e floats your boats

FWIW I don't think my opinion particularly matters or is relevant in any way because at the end of the day I'm not exactly an expert on the subject and if I had my way we'd only have tippy top players voting on this kind of thing, but your plan appears to be to have an officialish top player list while also having a full-community list or SOME sort of full tabulation and encouraging participation from lower level players who don't normally get basically any representation or really much attention in any way so I find that cool and worthy of support and the haters can eat nuts.

Sorry if there are any typos or contradictions or glaring errors or whatever I kinda just jammed this out so please point them out at will

If the list is not in an acceptable format please alert me but I believe I have followed the intended format

tl;dr i suck but falco doesn't

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

--Have been bitten by a tiger

Let's just make this guys list official, he obviously deserves it.

(btw Habefiet how the **** did you get bitten by a tiger O_o)

 

[Habefiet]

It's not half as exciting as it sounds, it works much better as a one-liner than as a story

But it's a hell of a one-liner

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

It's not half as exciting as it sounds, it works much better as a one-liner than as a story

But it's a hell of a one-liner

That was not a satisfactory answer at all

 

[Habefiet]

The answer will only disappoint you

If you're desperate PM me about it because I do not want to derail this topic any further

How about that tier list guys

Sure looks neato

 

[HoChiMinhTrail]

@ Armada, ya I wasn't aiming anything at you or your intentions. I just really think she is a good char and that you brought out her potential.

 

[Glide24]

1. Fox - Fox>Falco due to better recovery, two frame faster jump, much faster ground speed, faster air speed, shine-spike, up-throw up-air combo, powerful up-smash.
2. Falco - Very close to first but in my opinion barely beaten out by fox.
3. Sheik - Fast, powerful, and great recovery. Phenomenal edge-guarding (bair). Incredibly useful projectile. Lots of potential for chain-grabs and tech-chasing (solid dash-attack).
4. Marth
5. Peach - Tons of potential, but nobody has really been able to use her at the level that Armada did.
6. Jigglypuff - I agree with Hbox on his lower Jigglypuff placement.
7. Captain Falcon - While Falcon certainly does well, he has not been able to beat out the other 6 in any recent major tournaments. Clearly outclassed by the six above, but substantially better than all below him.
8. Ice Climbers - Tons of potential, especially with the recent approval wobbling has received.
9. Doctor Mario - Easily one of the best projectiles in the game. Very successful at gimping and edge-guarding because of his great bair and cape. D-throw to Fair is an excellent guaranteed against every character but Samus.
10. Pikachu - Excellent recovery. Very good B moves and great smash-attacks.
11. Samus
12. Luigi - Luigi has certainly been doing pretty well lately.
13. Ganondorf
14. Mario - Absolutely outclassed by Dr. Mario. Mario's lack of a guaranteed kill from his grab is one of the main things that sets Doc ahead. If Doc didn't exist, Mario would probably be 9th or 10th, but his clone has led him to become under-developed.
15. Young Link
16. Link
17. Yoshi - Yoshi has been showing a lot more potential lately than the current tier list suggests, with his placement as 21st.
18. Donkey Kong
19. Mewtwo - Great recovery, throws, and some useful options.
20. Zelda
21. Game & Watch
22. Ness
23. Roy
24. Bowser
25. Kirby
26. Pichu

 

[Purpletuce]

In regards to Yoshi being "overhyped" because vman's combo video, you can check out other Yoshis doing well:

There is vman, who I think everyone knows to be good.

There is/was Leffen, who has some amazing results with his Yoshi (won a national in Sweden but Armada wasn't there), and has a ton of amazing games on Youtube. (here he is beating Zoler http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VOzrppvbvHk)

There is Lil Fumi, with quite a few results, seen here beats Bimbo Mexico (who is on the SoCal PR) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKCW2hll9V8, and a set vs WestBallz http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gjo8gX-6pEA (2 stocks his falcon in one game)

There is Angel, who has some results, here is him vs Okami (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gOeupq3CP9c)

There is aMSa, an up-and-coming Yoshi in Japan with some good games on Youtube as well(vs. Gucci http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ebs7kmQS8W0).

There is another up-and-coming Yoshi in NorCal, Kimimaru, who has recently taken tournament sets off of Alan (ranked on NorCal PR). (teams is the only thing he has up http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1fKl9DgxLI)




Propaganda spread.

 

[MWEX]

S tier
Falco(+1)>Fox(+0)
Marth(+2)
Sheik(+1)

A tier
Jigglypuff(-2)
Peach(+0)
Captain Falcon(+0)

B tier
ICs(+0)
Doctor Mario(+1)

C tier
Samus(+1)
Ganondorf(-1)

D tier
Pikachu(+0)
Luigi(+1)
Mario(-1)
Young Link(+2)

E tier
D.K.(-1)
Link(+0)
Roy(+2)

F tier
Mewtwo(+1)
Yoshi(+2)
Gn'W(+2)
Ness(+3)
Zelda(-3)

G tier
Kirby(+2)
Bowser(-2)
Pichu(+0)

 

[GKInfinity]

I had some time so I decided to edit my previous tier list post with some reasons why I ranked the characters as I did.

http://smashboards.com/threads/melee-tier-list-voting-deadline-may-31st.336113/page-15#post-15540357

 

[Ripple]

• Top placings. 17th at the 2 previous SMYMs. 12th at SCSYN (most recent) 1st and 2nd in doubles at recent st.louis tournaments. singles performance is always between 4th-9th for "locals" (My locals are chicago/STL/Purdue)
• Size of the tournament (number of entrants as well as the entry fee) SMYM entry was $15 both times entry was between 70 and 90. locals have been $5 and attendance has always been 20+
• Notable players who attended. Dart/Atma/Trail/Kels/ORLY/Frootloop/DSF/little England/Matt R
• Who you actually beat and/or out placed. Kels' girlfriend. Pseudoturtle/ovaltine hot/KirkQ/viperboy (that luigi main from down south that came to SMYM. I forget his name but he's a super good luigi and has a ness. we did low tier battles)
• Best tournament victories. No victories over top players ever but I can take games off top MW players such as trail/kels/dart/Matt R
• Players who you consider yourself to be of about even skill with. Include your tournament record with them, if known. I am about the skill level of Juggleguy. I don't have consistent sets with any players to reference. I lose to someone different everytime but still someone in the top 3-5.
• Any players in your community who I could contact as a personal reference and/or to verify information provided. Dart is the best player I play the most often he can attest to my skill better than anyone else. if you need another, Trail is probably best to contact.

1. Falco
2. Sheik
3. Fox
4. Peach
5. Marth
6. Jiggs
7. Captain Falcon
8. Ice Climbers
9. Dr. Mario
10. Samus
11. Pikachu
12. Ganondorf
13. Luigi
14. Mario
15. Link
16. Y.Link
17. Yoshi
18. DK
19. Zelda
20. Mewtwo
21. Roy
22. G&W
23. Ness
24. Pichu
25. Kirby
26. Bowser

 

[The Good Doctor]

It's weird to post credentials to someone that knows us personally like Sveet, isnt it Ripple.?
Zelda is better than Mewtwo

 

[Ripple]

It's weird to post credentials to someone that knows us personally like Sveet, isnt it Ripple.?
Zelda is better than Mewtwo

a little weird. and I honestly spent like 20min trying to decide who was better between the 2.

 

[Tags]

S Tier:
1. Marth
2. Falco
3. Sheik
4. Fox

A Tier:
5. Peach
6. Jigglypuff
7. Captain Falcon

B Tier:
8. Ice Climbers
9. Dr Mario.
10. Ganon

C Tier:
11. Samus
12. Pikachu

D Tier:
13. DK
14. Link
15. YLink
16. Luigi

E Tier:
17. Mario
18. Roy

F Tier:
19. Ness
20. Yoshi
21. Mewtwo
22. Zelda
23. G&W

G Tier:
24. Bowser
25. Kirby
26. Pichu

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

It's weird to post credentials to someone that knows us personally like Sveet, isnt it Ripple.?
Zelda is better than Mewtwo

except i likely wont be judging the people who voted; im just tallying

 

[GKInfinity]

Zelda is in fact better than mewtwo. This 'tags' guy above me got it wrong

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Well thats it guys. Thanks to everyone who voted. I'll try to have a bit of a spoiler up soon

 

[The Good Doctor]

a little weird. and I honestly spent like 20min trying to decide who was better between the 2.

It's like the oddest match-up ever that's reasonably likely at a national that doesn't have Vman there.

 

[Tags]

Zelda is in fact better than mewtwo. This 'tags' guy above me got it wrong

Actually I wasn't really sure which was better but I just got most of my facts from watching videos and my community.

 

[FourStar]

hopefully this tier list thing will be up by this week

 

[BTmoney]

I'm sure it's a lot of work. It'll probably get done when it's done. Not to mention one would have to find good ways to organize and present the data.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

To put it in perspective, I still have to go through all 127 tier lists manually to normalize the character names (change everyone's Puff or Jiggly or Jigglesworth, etc to Jigglypuff). And I'm saving that for the end because thats the easy part.