Melee: The Mechanics Behind Advanced Platform Tech By schmoo

[LiteralGrill]

There are many maneuvers, techs, combos many players use every day and take for granted, yet have no idea the actual "science" behind how it works. By digging into the depths of a game's mechanics new tech can be discovered alongside new tools that could possibly swing matchups or just an individual match.

Youtube schmoo has done just that in Melee, exploring the in depth mechanics behind platforms and advanced techs regarding them. Give this a watch to get some in depth education on Melee's mechanics and possibly learn something new to up your game. If the video is confusing reference links and more explanations are available in the video's description on Youtube.

SmashCapps found this video incredibly fascinating and wishes he could see more just like it. To share other awesome videos and to keep up with what he's doing, go follow him on Twitter.

 

[ELITEWarri0r115]

what is the diamond figure supposed to be? and nice info.

 

[DarkDeity15]

I still have no idea what this is telling me, so I'll watch it again lol. These techs seem very useful.

 

[90007000]

What. Is. This.

 

[Link24a]

what is the diamond figure supposed to be? and nice info.

did you even watch the video?

 

[thrillagorilla]

20XX is real. This is legit, thank you schmoo and SmashCapps for posting! :-)

 

[ggamer77]

So that's what that diamond is..
Very interesting.

 

[Kasran]

As a game developer who wants to make a Smash-like fighting game, this is a great help and an inspiration. Thanks for making me aware of this. :D

 

[EpicFlyingTaco]

I think my brain just melted out of my ears...

In all serious though, sincere props to schmoo. It must have taken a lot of time and effort to figure all this out.

 

[bugmac101]

I dont play SSBM, but this is some complicated stuff. Who would think of doing this in the first place before they knew it would work?

 

[Fly Sloth]

This is honestly so interesting to me and as a Falco main, the platform drop B.Air might come in handy :]

 

[MasterIcarus7 (SHADE)]

Let's be honest here, m2k probably figured this out way back in 08 or 07. No offense, though, thank you for posting this and helping us learn as always, SmashCapps

 

[HoodsxX]

It'd be cool if this applied to Smash 4 as well. But nice stuff, glad I watched this. ^^

 

[BRUJO~]

That is very interesting, and well explained by schmoo

 

[C_Mill24]

14 year old game, and there is new tech still continuing to be discovered!

 

[HoodsxX]

14 year old game, and there is new tech still continuing to be discovered!

It's not that it's new. It's more just explaining how to do this sort of tech. Most high level players (Moon, Hax, Axe etc) know of this, and of-course the top level players all use this. It's more just a breakdown of how to do it, so people understand how it works, why it works, and how they can apply it.

 

[C_Mill24]

It's not that it's new. It's more just explaining how to do this sort of tech. Most high level players (Moon, Hax, Axe etc) know of this, and of-course the top level players all use this. It's more just a breakdown of how to do it, so people understand how it works, why it works, and how they can apply it.

Ah, I see. Thanks for the clarification.

 

[HoodsxX]

Ah, I see. Thanks for the clarification.

No problem. ^^

 

[schmooblidon]

It's not that it's new. It's more just explaining how to do this sort of tech. Most high level players (Moon, Hax, Axe etc) know of this, and of-course the top level players all use this. It's more just a breakdown of how to do it, so people understand how it works, why it works, and how they can apply it.

The last 2 platform warp sections are weeks old. There are still many platform warps to be found and documented. It's what made me want to do the video, as when I showed it off, no-one knew wtf they were looking at.

 

[NotAnAdmin]

Has Melee science gone too far?

 

[schmooblidon]

Let's be honest here, m2k probably figured this out way back in 08 or 07. No offense, though, thank you for posting this and helping us learn as always, SmashCapps

I dno... I've never seen m2k lab using debug menu let alone magus' debug tool that was only released a few months ago. He may of indeed observed the tech and maybe even found the setups, but to actually see and understand what the collision box is doing, doubtful. He was known as the basement dweller in like 03 where debug menu wasn't even a thing.

If he has labbed in debug, he sure has been quiet about it.

 

[MasterIcarus7 (SHADE)]

I dno... I've never seen m2k lab using debug menu let alone magus' debug tool that was only released a few months ago. He may of indeed observed the tech and maybe even found the setups, but to actually see and understand what the collision box is doing, doubtful. He was known as the basement dweller in like 03 where debug menu wasn't even a thing.

If he has labbed in debug, he sure has been quiet about it.

I would assumed he has used the new debug tool. I mean, you don't just quit after this: http://clashtournaments.com/mew2kings-melee-information-and-discoveries/
Edit: Didn't realize, are you the one who made this video?

 

[schmooblidon]

I would assumed he has used the new debug tool. I mean, you don't just quit after this: http://clashtournaments.com/mew2kings-melee-information-and-discoveries/
Edit: Didn't realize, are you the one who made this video?

He did that in 03 though, I want to believe he still labs like that (that level of obsession is many tiers above mine), but he probably would of posted his findings if he did. And ye I made the vid.

 

[Vipermoon]

I feel like people are hiring people with British accents to narrate their videos.

 

[ELITEWarri0r115]

did you even watch the video?

With no volume, yes. Broken speakers and on desktop. No laptop

 

[Kasran]

With no volume, yes. Broken speakers and on desktop. No laptop

Basically: the orange diamond is the shape that's used to determine whether the character is colliding with the wall, floor, or another character; it's called the Environmental Collision Box. What it's not used for is determining whether a move hits; that's what the hurtbox is for, of course. :>

There's a darker orange diamond a bit behind it that shows what the ECB looked like on the previous frame. That's how the game figures out whether you've landed on a platform: if the ECB was above the platform on the last frame and is partially below it on the current one, the character has landed. The video talks about ways the ECB patterns of certain moves and movement options can be used to do things like reduce landing lag or cancel aerials upon landing. (Anyone, please correct me if I'm wrong.)

 

[Kitsune91]

I didn't get credited in the video for discovering shine platform warp. k. *sobs* ;w ; ...

 

[GeZ]

I didn't get credited in the video for discovering shine platform warp. k. *sobs* ;w ; ...

@ schmooblidon maybe you should credit @ Kitsune91 for the shine platform warp thing? He is the dude who posted the vid that I linked you a little while back.

 

[Daftatt]

These news post comment threads need downvoting buttons

 

[GeZ]

These news post comment threads need downvoting buttons

They are setting up this weird norm of people placing the weight of the discovery on the article writer, rather than the creator, which is super weird.

 

[Dr. Tuen]

This is beautiful. A clear description of information pertinent to the community using a great tool for Melee research. 11/10, would watch again.

 

[Mr. Keebs]

Super Smash Bros Melee...

 

[WinterShorts]

Has Melee science gone too far?

Never.

 

[ECHOnce]

@ schmooblidon any idea on whether there are trends in differences for PM? I already know that PM has positional differences for the first airborne frame (closer to the ground than Melee) and first frame on which actions affect airborne momentum (characters momentum is affected frame jump/dodge/attack inputs), but...it'd be neat if some of those just happened to translate somewhat cleanly, and not just end up as huge mess of differences for platform tech between Melee --> PM versions between characters...

EDIT: Have specials or air-dodges been tested for convenient platform tech? Or have they already been exhausted without findings aha

 

[schmooblidon]

@ schmooblidon any idea on whether there are trends in differences for PM? I already know that PM has positional differences for the first airborne frame (closer to the ground than Melee) and first frame on which actions affect airborne momentum (characters momentum is affected frame jump/dodge/attack inputs), but...it'd be neat if some of those just happened to translate somewhat cleanly, and not just end up as huge mess of differences for platform tech between Melee --> PM versions between characters...

EDIT: Have specials or air-dodges been tested for convenient platform tech? Or have they already been exhausted without findings aha

I'm a little rusty on the differences, but IIRC it's mostly to do with the order in which calculations are done within each frame. I know AIs are possible, as I found a few a while back. I'm pretty certain it also has the ECB lock, but not sure if it is the same on doublejumps or counts through hitlag. It'll be pretty easy to test it out, so I'll do that tonight and tomorrow, and post my findings on like /r/ssbpm, i can link it to u if u want?

Airdodges generally have a low ECB on frame 1, or at least at some point in the first few frames, making perfect wavelands possible. Shine from a fullhop can be useful for shine grabs, as you shine on like the 6th or something airborne frame, then the ECB update so it's just above a platform, and u fall onto it, from there you can jc into grab. But it's also something to avoid when trying to combo. You can also platform cancel shine, because it makes you fall so slow, so shielddrop shine is pretty good with that. I can't remember other useful stuff, but I'm sure there are some that work like AIs (but without cancelling landing lag), and ones that change velocity work like the shine. Might look more into specials soon.

 

[ECHOnce]

snip

That'd be sick, I'd definitely appreciate it! I didn't actually expect you to offer to test them at all, much less asap, so there's really no rush! I was just wondering if you happened to know off the top of your head aha

If it's any help, I drew the little bit of info I mentioned from here. I'll summarize it to save you some time; there are three major differences between Melee/PM airgame:

1. In Melee, aerial IASA can't cancel into specials and airdodges (not sure how applicable this is for plats). Likewise, grounded IASA can't cancel into specials or buffered shield. Both of these can be worked around at the cost of a few frames, also linked below.
   ( Melee / Melee double jump work-around / PM )
   
   
2. "Jump Gravity Quirk" -- in Melee, your initial jump momentum is affected by aerials on the first few frames, reducing your peak height and giving less overall airtime than empty short/full hops, or later aerials.
   ( Melee / Melee example 2 / PM )
   
   
3. "Physics Delay" -- in PM, airborne momentum is affected 2 frames after any input, as opposed to the 1st frame after Melee inputs. This affects the first airborne frame ECB, frame-perfect wavedashe timing, and the number of actions possible in a single short hop. He gives some Marth examples, linked below.
   ( Melee / Melee SH limitations / the PM thing-thing )

So...yeah, I think I got 2 and 3 reversed in my first post here. I'd double-check, but I got class. Thanks again!
EDIT: one of my links was wrong, now fixed (the bolded one)

 

[schmooblidon]

That'd be sick, I'd definitely appreciate it! I didn't actually expect you to offer to test them at all, much less asap, so there's really no rush! I was just wondering if you happened to know off the top of your head aha

If it's any help, I drew the little bit of info I mentioned from here. I'll summarize it to save you some time; there are three major differences between Melee/PM airgame:

1. In Melee, aerial IASA can't cancel into specials and airdodges (not sure how applicable this is for plats). Likewise, grounded IASA can't cancel into specials or buffered shield. Both of these can be worked around at the cost of a few frames, also linked below.
   ( Melee / Melee double jump work-around / PM )
   
   
2. "Jump Gravity Quirk" -- in Melee, your initial jump momentum is affected by aerials on the first few frames, reducing your peak height and giving less overall airtime than empty short/full hops, or later aerials.
   ( Melee / Melee example 2 / PM )
   
   
3. "Physics Delay" -- in PM, airborne momentum is affected 2 frames after any input, as opposed to the 1st frame after Melee inputs. This affects the first airborne frame ECB, frame-perfect wavedashe timing, and the number of actions possible in a single short hop. He gives some Marth examples, linked below.
   ( Melee / Melee SH limitations / the PM thing-thing )

So...yeah, I think I got 2 and 3 reversed in my first post here. I'd double-check, but I got class. Thanks again!
EDIT: one of my links was wrong, now fixed (the bolded one)

Thanks for the links dude, these are really helpful. I don't think my findings are really thread worthy :/ NIL, standard AIs, rising AIs, AIAs all work identically.

Because the ECB on the first frame of a new action state repeats the ECB on the previous frame, instant AIs happen on the 2nd aerial frame. The ECB lock happens for 10 airborne frame instead of melee's 9, but this is because on the first frame even tho you are technically airborne, your ECB is where it was the frame before. So platform cancels are still a thing, and are pretty much identical.

There is no ECB lock on doublejump meaning no platform warps.

I remember taking a mental note a long while ago that there was some kind of ecb manipulation, but I didn't manage to find anything this time. I'll keep testing PM for new stuff every now and then, I'm sure there are tonnes of stuff still undiscovered.

 

[CNMNE]

This reminds me of how in sm4sh, Peach's bair lets her land on the ledge even when she's clearly offstage. Must move her ECB