Match-up Week 2: Greninja - Bring your Frog Suits!

[FalKoopa]

Discus vs.

From the Match-up thread:

Greninja is very jumpy, which makes it hard for Weegee.

Fireballs won't stop fully charged Water Shuriken, and Greninja has rangey smashes.

We must stop his jumps somehow. Luigi Cyclone is punishable, but I think that is our only reliable option. Or we MAY be able to use dashing U-smash, but I'm not sure.

Next, we has to grab him. His Shadow Sneak is teleghraphed, so shield and grab him if possible. His Counter sucks, but Luigi has high end lag attacks also, so we must be careful to not Cyclone to his Counter.

Fireballs are pretty vital for this MU, but don't try to clash it with Water Shurikens. Fuly charged version travels slower and shorter, but it's surprisingly powerful, shield is our best option. It also eats our Fireballs.

His speed is a problem. But hey, try throwing out Fireballs anyway. His Shurikens need to be charged to neutralize our Fireballs, so get outta there by jumping or shield it.

Luigi will dominate in the air as long as he can keep things under control. This is applicable to almost all MUs. Just watch out for his own. I kinda forgot what are his F-air and B-air, but try to not get caught in that U-air.

If you are seeing him trying to push us with Hydro Pump, I'd suggest to read when and what direction he aims, then Cyclone and go for the ledge. SJP has invincibility during the rise, so as long as you don't shot through the ledge, recovering from below seems to be our best bet. Although, just mix your recovery for most part, to me, Hydro Pump is more annoying than I thought.

Try to pressure him and don't let him has a room to do his tricks. I rarely seen Greninjas online, so sprry if I got some things wrong.

Eh, Shurikens can be shielded, and the thing is, he may be able to run for a grab. Maybe we can try jump + Luigi Cyclone or aerials, but again, I have little experience with this MU, so I dunno much.

However, I think we can air dodge the U-smash and punish him with a grab in the lag. And about his aerials, try Luigi Cyclone. Hopefully, it will clash and Luigi win it, cancelling his aerials and then we can proceed to offensive.

Shurikens CAN be cancelled. As long as it doesn't grow into crazy size. Fireballs have surprisingly high priority.

And also, for kill move, you can try to bait an airdodge with D-throw and U-smash them. Works for players who are air-dodge happy. So basically D-throw + they air dodge + U-smash. Be careful for Counters though!

And also, Luigi also can punish Greninja. His Shadow Sneak leaves him vunerable when shielded, and his jumps can be punished with Luigi Cyclone. Punish Counter with grabs, obviously.

Neutral:

Greninja outcamps Luigi with a faster projectile with more range than his so you're forced to approach him, however shurikens have a fair bit of ending lag, so it is possible to get to Greninja by using cyclone, but unless you're somewhat close, it's very easy for Greninja to shield cyclone and punish you for your troubles if they see it coming. Don't get too predictable with cyclones. Fireballs at close range can be useful to set Greninja up for a grab since if he tries shurikens that close, the end-lag is super punishable, so if he gets hit, shields or spotdodges, he can be grabbed, but he can still jump over it or roll to escape so it's not guaranteed

Luigi has to play defensively in neutral, the best opportunity for dealing damage to Greninja is shieldgrabbing a n-air. However, be cautious when doing that, n-air can push you away while you're in your shield, putting you a distance away from him and if you try to grab, you will miss and likely get grabbed yourself or worse. Be also cautious of Greninja going behind during n-air as similar things can happen. Greninja's F-Air and B-Air are safe on shield if spaced correctly, so be wary of that. Greninja's dash grab also has a great range and comes out very quickly.

Advantage:

Luigi can deal a lot of damage to Greninja out of d-throw which is great, however, his bad mobility often means that Greninja will usually be able to get away from him fairly easily with his superior airspeed and the assistance of Hydro Pump if need be. Try to keep Greninja above you as his only option to counter you is d-air, which will leave him vulnerable to an attack if it misses, or Substitute which has the same problem if it's not triggered. The moment Greninja is above you is the best moment to deal damage or get the kill, as hard as it can be to keep him there.

Disadvantage:

The best way for Luigi to get away from Greninja after being put in this state is n-air. Greninja can chase you down mercilessly and catch your landings with Up-Smash (though N-Air trades with it and results in only the first weak hit striking, keep that in mind) or a dash grab. If he shields your N-Air, you're either going to get jabbed or hit by d-tilt, which can be lethal at higher percentages due to it comboing into Up-Smash. It's better to try to break out of Greninja's juggling when you're both in the air, if you manage to hit Greninja with a N-Air while he's jumping after you for an Up-Air or whatever, he's going to be sent above you so you can use that as an opportunity to reverse the situation.

Edgeguarding:

This is pretty bad for Luigi. Greninja can edgeguard him well with B-air and Hydro Pump. One note about Green Missile, I believe it's possible for Greninja to use Substitute against it for edgeguarding as the move has quite the end lag when it hits something from what I've seen. Upwards Substitute can kill Luigi as early as 85% with no rage in Final Destination and leave Greninja completely safe to return even if he wasted his second jump before.

Cyclone helps Luigi recovery, but if the Greninja times it well he can hit Luigi during the end lag of the move which can result in death if you already used your double jump and you're not very good at the jumpless cyclone. Greninja can also stage spike you if you're below the stage or flat out kill you by timing a Shadow Sneak out of stage.

When it comes to the inverse, Luigi will have trouble keeping Greninja out, Shadow Sneak already lets him close the distance to the stage very well with little trouble due to the teleport, plus Hydro Pump mix-ups make him very hard to keep out. Be wary when jumping after Greninja for the gimp because you're at the risk of something like this happening to you and possibly costing you a life.

So my take on the MU is that Greninja can outrange Luigi and chase him very easily due to much better mobility and he also can edgeguard Luigi very well. Luigi can deal more damage to him in a combo, but it's going to be difficult to really keep Greninja on a disadvantaged state. You guys need to make every hit count and try to get as much damage on him as possible before going for the kill. Greninja's smashes and aerials have a good amount of lag on them for you to punish, but be wary of his aerials since he can make them be safe on block and throw you off which will likely result in you getting grabbed.

Ideally you want to get Greninja when he messes up while on the ground where you can capitalize on his mistakes there more consistently, though if you find a good opening after he uses an aerial, go for it; once you manage to hit him, try to keep Greninja above as much as you can to deal damage. Edgeguarding Greninja is very difficult, but if you start to see patterns in how they're recovering, take advantage of them to edgeguard more safely. Be very careful when offstage because Greninja can get you dead very easily there.

Like I said before I don't know much about Luigi and his tools so I might be overlooking something, still, I hope I could be of help. This MU feels like quite the uphill battle for Luigi since Greninja is very good at keeping him in a bad position, but as long as you're pacient, you should be able to find the openings you need to win.

 

[STiCKYBULL3TZ]

I actually haven't played this MU in a while and I'm a better player now so I might perform better but here's what I think about it:

Greninja has solid ground speed as well as great air speed. If you let Greninja do its thing, you will be quickly overwhelmed with a flurry of attacks that put up great pressure. If it wasn't for the water shuriken, this MU would be way easier IMO. WS isn't as spammable as Fireball but it is faster with varying strengths. Only a fully charged one eats Fireballs so mid-range Fireball pressure is fairly safe. Watch out for grabs. Greninja's Uthrow will devastate Luigi because now he's floating in the air to be constantly threatened by Uair. Mix up your landings. Air dodge, DJ, Nair, Cyclone, retreat to ledge

I don't recommend jumping much here. Greninja can quickly close the gap and punish with Usmash (this move has serious range). Also, Greninja can catch you with a quick WS and follow it up with Usmash or grab. Only jump when Greninja is approaching with jumps or starts approaching with grabs and DA.

Approaching is fairly difficult because of Luigi's lackluster approach options. WS will shut down your grounded approach and Greninja can react to an aerial approach. Be patient and try to force Greninja to approach you. Cyclone tends to work pretty well too as long as you don't become too predictable with it.

Greninja can edguard Luigi pretty well outside of the Rising tornado. Drop down Bair works well against Luigi because of the multihits and it's tough to tech the stage for that same reason. Fair is good at swatting Luigi away when he Missiles. I don't think the Up B water box is nothing to worry about. It'll push you but not far enough to really affect you unless it somehow catches your Up B.

When it comes to edgeguarding with Luigi, I feel like Jumpless Cyclone works on just about anyone and Greninja is no exception. Greninja is even easier because Greninja's body doesn't have a hitbox. Other than that, it all comes down to a read. Greninja can mix up its recovery pretty well due to it's Quick Attack-esque nature. Look for patterns. You can always force an angle by throwing Fireball/Iceball then dropping down to cover a few options.

I would say this MU is in favor of Greninja. His aerial speed and ground speed run circles around Luigi and the presence of a decent projectile makes it hard for Luigi to really get anything going. Don't know much about Greninja customs to comment on that
40/60 Greninja

 

[Gunla]

Greninja player here.

Gotta say that this MU feels a bit favored towards the ninja frog. A lot of Luigi's tools can either be outcamped (Shuriken by far is rather prominent), or Greninja can use its speed to evade and chase down Luigi pretty efficiently. In addition to that, outside of Rising Tornado, Greninja can deal with Luigi rather efficiently offstage, with Hydro Pump and Bair. My estimate of this MU is likely a 40/60 or 45/55 Greninja advantage.

 

[MonkeyArms]

All I know is I played this matchup once and everytime I got a grab greninja could DI out of my down throw before I could combo. I've not seen this possible with any other character

 

[WalkerTheTalker]

All I know is I played this matchup once and everytime I got a grab greninja could DI out of my down throw before I could combo. I've not seen this possible with any other character

i thought that was a true combo

 

[SirJuicius]

Liberation and STiCKYBULL3TZ's assessments of Greninja are pretty much what I'd have to say about him. I don't think it's a question that the MU is in Greninja's favor. I'd say it's 60:40 Ninj. Everything about Greninja is fast. And they usually are relentless in their pursuit... although that could come to Luigi's advantage. Usually what I like to do with fast characters such as Sheik, Greninja and Captain Falcon (not Sonic though - too fast) is wear them out by having them chase me until I feel like I've got control of the pace of the match. I believe that once you can get control of the pace of the match, you can work away at Greninja. But it's not easy against Greninja.

 

[Jaguar360]

Agreeing that this is in Greninja's favor. Greninja's mobility is a key factor here; his high air speed and jump height allow him to have a better chance of escaping Luigi's combos than most of the cast (high falling speed can make him vulnerable to some though) and he can avoid getting hit with Fireballs better than most characters. Water Shurikens clash with Fireballs and can make it hard for Luigi to get in. Hydro Pump gives Greninja even more onstage control. Luigi's attacks are overall outranged, but his attack speeds are among the quickest in the game, so Greninja needs to watch out for that. Greninja also has the better recovery and Luigi's recovery options are vulnerable to Hydro Pump gimps. Luigi's high jump in combination with his poor air speed and floatiness make him pretty susceptible to sweetspot up smashes from Greninja, so he should generally stay grounded.

Luigi has his own perks in the matchup though. His attack speed is great and he is generally safer on shield than Greninja is. His OoS options in his shieldgrab, n-air and SJP on occasion are much better than Greninja's poor OoS options, making his punish game against Greninja great. Cyclone is also a good option for Luigi in the matchup because of its high priority and movement speed. He also racks up damage quickly in general and has a few more killing options than Greninja (though Greninja shouldn't have much trouble killing either in this matchup). Luigi's floatiness can also be an asset for avoiding some of Greninja's followups.

Overall, I think Greninja takes control of the match and is advantaged against Luigi for the most part, though Greninja is forced to respect Luigi's combos and kill moves and must play safely. Probably 40:60 in Greninja's favor.