Match Up Export: ICs

[Smoom77]

No character is easier!!! I have to say this every time I talk about matchups. It's ALL personal preference.

 

[kackamee]

This matchup is really broken IMO. We can pivot grab your bair EXTREMELY easily. It doesn't even touch us. If we stand with our backs to you, we don't need any thing since we can pivot grab EVERYTHING.

I haven't played many Kirbys, but that's what I got from it.

Ohai Meep. <3

No character is easier!!! I have to say this every time I talk about matchups. It's ALL personal preference.

Yes. No character is easy/hard to chaingrab. Someone could have an easier time CG'ing Bowser, and not be able to CG Sonic. It's all about their fingers and how they like to move. I personally am best at CGing Marth out of anyone (though I do get most characters 100%) because I started out CG's 2/3 years ago against him. The only character that IS "hard" to CG is Jigglypuff, and I'm sure many people would agree with me.


Insight on Kirby MU: Ehhh. I really wish Kirby was alittle better in this game. I luvvvv Kirby's and I always have a hard time fighting them because they are soo cute D: Well, anyway. Kirby can't do much...But thing is, you can camp the beggining of the match, but you probably will be caught eventually. So get early damage while you can. Kirby isn't the best seperater in the game, and even if he does seperate us, his moves are super disjointed to the point where we can't get back together. I'm not sure what Kirby does have, because I always do IC dittos. O:

 

[Teh Future]

this really isn't THAT bad. just bait something and then hit us with bair. then **** us b/c we are ICs lol.

60-40 IC

 

[C~Dog]

'Just bait something' is a ridiculously stupid argument to use in matchup discussions. BOTH PLAYERS CAN BAIT AND PUNISH.

 

[Prawn]

i agree with future completely

 

[Miamisportsfan45]

'Just bait something' is a ridiculously stupid argument to use in matchup discussions. BOTH PLAYERS CAN BAIT AND PUNISH.

I agree with you. If that's the case, then the other side of the matchup can be considered the same way.

 

[Berserker.]

I'm predicting more of a 70:30 matchup, at best for Kirby honestly. Yoshi has the same matchup (in my mind) if not worse. I'm saying 80:20 in favor of Ice Climbers vs Kirby.

What do you mean by that? You're saying 80:20 Yoshi's favor vs Kirby or something? Previously, it was the opposite during our recent/last Kirby VS Yoshi discussion.

Maybe it's just your opinion? Don't worry, I'm like that sometimes :\


Back to the topic:

About ICs, 60:40 ICs, most of Kirby's options are shut down though Kirby has OPTIONS. Just a little though. Stay defensive since you can't make safe approaches against ICs.

Maybe 65:35 ICs not 70:30. Around 60:40 to 65:35 ICs.

 

[Sage JoWii]

So I sat and played with Hylian's ICs (just in case you've been under a rock he's a top 5 ICs) and I feel that this match-up is a 60-40 MU.

I believe so because even though it only take one grab to kill Kirby, ICs stil has TO grab Kirby and with correct spacing this can be avoided (for a while). Also, it's not rare for a grab to be dropped meaning you don't lose the stock then and there.

ICs UAir beats EVERYTHING. EVERYTHING ('cept rock).

Also, ONLY ON KIRBY: ICs can kill with a grab release>UpB. It's fancy.

Kirby can plank moderately well but only for about one or two ledge grabs before he'll get knocked away or grabbed.

BAir is fantastically amazing. If you hit with only the tip you won't be grabbed and as long as you are DI-ing away you won't be within grab range when you land. Basically, don't be approaching.

Grabs are effective when you grab nana if you can grab ICs without being grabbed.

The biggest part of this Match-up isn't even about the moves. It's about the stage. CP to PS1 because the terrain change will stop CGs and it generally helps to keep Kirby alive longer. Ban FD for obvious reasons.

(Before you quote this, have an intelligent refute or agreement; no one-/two-liners.)

 

[Teh Future]

'Just bait something' is a ridiculously stupid argument to use in matchup discussions. BOTH PLAYERS CAN BAIT AND PUNISH.

lol u mad.

hylian should quit dropping grabs to kirby lollllllllllllllll ****s so easy

 

[Triple R]

lol U Mad.

Hylian Should Quit Dropping Grabs To Kirby Lollllllllllllllll ****s So Easy

Ganondorf!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Miamisportsfan45]

What do you mean by that? You're saying 80:20 Yoshi's favor vs Kirby or something? Previously, it was the opposite during our recent/last Kirby VS Yoshi discussion.

Maybe it's just your opinion? Don't worry, I'm like that sometimes :\


Back to the topic:

About ICs, 60:40 ICs, most of Kirby's options are shut down though Kirby has OPTIONS. Just a little though. Stay defensive since you can't make safe approaches against ICs.

Maybe 65:35 ICs not 70:30. Around 60:40 to 65:35 ICs.

No, I meant Yoshi vs Ice Climbers, Yoshi has just as bad as a matchup as Kirby vs Ice Climbers. You got me wrong xD

 

[MikeKirby]

ICs UAir beats EVERYTHING. EVERYTHING ('cept rock).

Also, ONLY ON KIRBY: ICs can kill with a grab release>UpB. It's fancy.

Grabs are effective when you grab nana if you can grab ICs without being grabbed.

(Before you quote this, have an intelligent refute or agreement; no one-/two-liners.)

Grab release>UpB... that's scary...

I'm not assuming you meant go for a grab againsts the IC's but, if you did, grabbing Nana would be... good? I would have thought the other way around (grabbing Popo). Hmm, well if you did grab what would be a good option? I hear B-Throw since it's our fastest throw and we can buffer an air jump so we don't touch the ground. Could pummeling maybe be a good option, too? You could strike both Ice Climbers with the hitbox pummel to prevent them from counter attacking you. A good Ice Climber player would probably be able to hit you out of it anyway but I'm curious to see what you guys think.

 

[Sage JoWii]

Grab release>UpB... that's scary...

I'm not assuming you meant go for a grab againsts the IC's but, if you did, grabbing Nana would be... good? I would have thought the other way around (grabbing Popo). Hmm, well if you did grab what would be a good option? I hear B-Throw since it's our fastest throw and we can buffer an air jump so we don't touch the ground. Could pummeling maybe be a good option, too? You could strike both Ice Climbers with the hitbox pummel to prevent them from counter attacking you. A good Ice Climber player would probably be able to hit you out of it anyway but I'm curious to see what you guys think.

Lmao; I totally didn't read my own post. Ok. When I said Nana, it's because that was Hylian's primary IC and THAT's what I meant to target. Grab the primary IC and BThrow>whatever splits them (Maybe a DSmash or something).
Pummeling is not a good option because you'll be smashed out of the grab and the pummel % yielded won't be worth the damage you'll take.

 

[Teh Future]

i dunno about kirby but with a lot of characters you actually want to pummel once when you grab because it will knock the other climber away before they can do anything.

lol gannon

 

[Miamisportsfan45]

Anyone think desynching IC's and then using the Suck Drop technique, spit Nana away from the ledge and edge hogging would work? Then play normal IC 1v1 without the CG?

 

[Sage JoWii]

@ Miami- Actually me and Hylian tested this out because I love kirbicides and such. ICs OverB + jumps is sooooo good, that they can scrooge under FD and make it back. It's good enough that if you try and inhale>spit under stage the primary IC will recover but the secondary may not. ALSO if you inhale the wrong one, they'll recover no problem and you may eat a DTilt edgegaurd or a bunch of desync'd iceblocks.

 

[Miamisportsfan45]

@ Miami- Actually me and Hylian tested this out because I love kirbicides and such. ICs OverB + jumps is sooooo good, that they can scrooge under FD and make it back. It's good enough that if you try and inhale>spit under stage the primary IC will recover but the secondary may not. ALSO if you inhale the wrong one, they'll recover no problem and you may eat a DTilt edgegaurd or a bunch of desync'd iceblocks.

So basically, you need to be careful when Kirbyciding for 1v1 advantage?

But... It does work?

 

[Sage JoWii]

Lol it depends on what you consider working, re-read my earlier post. Does that sound like it works?

 

[Miamisportsfan45]

If you're cautious, yeah.

 

[Berserker.]

No, I meant Yoshi vs Ice Climbers, Yoshi has just as bad as a matchup as Kirby vs Ice Climbers. You got me wrong xD

Sorry about that.

As a Yoshi (I use Yoshi sometimes and my first opponent was an IC), I'd also think the same or worse.

 

[Miamisportsfan45]

Sorry about that.

As a Yoshi (I use Yoshi sometimes and my first opponent was an IC), I'd also think the same or worse.

No problem dude. Minor misconception.

Anyway, Yoshi is terrible vs Ice Climbers. So is Kirby... Ice Climbers have high matchups over nearly everyone now I think about it. If they don't, it's pretty close. So... I mean... Why are they not top 5 in the tier list?

 

[Kewkky]

No problem dude. Minor misconception.

Anyway, Yoshi is terrible vs Ice Climbers. So is Kirby... Ice Climbers have high matchups over nearly everyone now I think about it. If they don't, it's pretty close. So... I mean... Why are they not top 5 in the tier list?

Because their matchups are inflated with the whole "one grab, one stock" way of thinking. It really doesn't take much to separate ICs, just one hit, one tilt or one grab and they're already separated and looking to get back together. Not to mention that offstage spikes and camping are their worst enemies, they're really only amazing on flat terrain. If you can get to a stage where you have more than one landing option (a platform and the stage, for example), the matchup starts feeling easier and doable. The more platforms, the better for everyone (including campers, cuz it means they can get away without fear of getting grabbed).

Once you separate them, you'll obviously run after the AI, and once it's dead, ICs don't pose as big a threat as when both of them are together... I'm positive that, in our case, once there's only one IC left it turns to our favor since we can combo him and knock them offstage, then gimp him with incredible ease.

 

[Miamisportsfan45]

Because their matchups are inflated with the whole "one grab, one stock" way of thinking. It really doesn't take much to separate ICs, just one hit, one tilt or one grab and they're already separated and looking to get back together. Not to mention that offstage spikes and camping are their worst enemies, they're really only amazing on flat terrain. If you can get to a stage where you have more than one landing option (a platform and the stage, for example), the matchup starts feeling easier and doable. The more platforms, the better for everyone (including campers, cuz it means they can get away without fear of getting grabbed).

Once you separate them, you'll obviously run after the AI, and once it's dead, ICs don't pose as big a threat as when both of them are together... I'm positive that, in our case, once there's only one IC left it turns to our favor since we can combo him and knock them offstage, then gimp him with incredible ease.

I like the outlook, and I see where you're coming from. Didn't think of all those viewpoints at the time. It only takes on hit to seperate them though?

 

[Kewkky]

I like the outlook, and I see where you're coming from. Didn't think of all those viewpoints at the time. It only takes on hit to seperate them though?

Yep, only one hit to separate them. One hit to both ICs means that they will be knocked away, perfect for you to follow their landings and hit them with something while they land. Chances are if you're following their landing trajectory, one IC will land and shield your attack while the AI doesn't and takes it. Once they're both separated, it's time to rush them down since they pose no threat compared to a 0>death chaingrab... And also, there's the possibility that you've hit the AI more than the player during the match, so once you hit them both the AI will fly farther away, thus separating them with one single hit.

It gets easier to do this with camping, seeing as how the AI takes a while to do what you want it to do. If your opponent tries to shield everything, as long as you time your hits, you'll only hit your opponents' shields and not the AI's. ICs may have their ice blocks to "counter" camping, but they're slow and you can just bounce them back with an attack, or projectile, or shield them, or just jump over them, so they're not really a "counter"... In Kirby's case, we can't camp with attacks, but we CAN aircamp and attack with aerials. It's much better to attack them from the air and get hit with uairs once in a while, than landing and getting grabbed.

If your character has a spike, as soon as you separate the AI, push her over the stage and don't stop being aggressive, then spike her to her doom. Now you only have one IC to take care of, make sure he doesn't go offstage attempting to save the one you just spiked.

The key to the matchup is playing it all outside of their grab range. Kirby can play it from the air, if he runs out of jumps and is forced to land in front of the ICs, learn to use footstools in a pinch, they'll be waiting down there with their shields raised ready to shieldgrab anything you try to do (even landing with no attacks)... So footstool their shields and jump to the ledges/platforms so that you can recover your jumps and continue to fight without losing a stock. Some characters are forced to the ground and don't have the ability to stay in the air for longer periods of time, so they have this disadvantage. However, some of them compensate by having projectiles or range (Snake, Marth, Falco, Diddy...), so they still play from outside of the IC's grab ranges and manage to pull them apart, then kill the AI and later concentrate on the main one.



I lost my train of thought. **** you, Monster Hunter 3!

 

[Teh Future]

i think popo is better than ivysuar lol

 

[Kewkky]

i think popo is better than ivysuar lol

Me too.

 

[Berserker.]

Excluding Snake and MK. People argue whether it's 60:40 or 55:45 MK and Snake's favor vs ICs.

Can we go back to the discussion or we're done here?

 

[Miamisportsfan45]

Yep, only one hit to separate them. One hit to both ICs means that they will be knocked away, perfect for you to follow their landings and hit them with something while they land. Chances are if you're following their landing trajectory, one IC will land and shield your attack while the AI doesn't and takes it. Once they're both separated, it's time to rush them down since they pose no threat compared to a 0>death chaingrab... And also, there's the possibility that you've hit the AI more than the player during the match, so once you hit them both the AI will fly farther away, thus separating them with one single hit.

It gets easier to do this with camping, seeing as how the AI takes a while to do what you want it to do. If your opponent tries to shield everything, as long as you time your hits, you'll only hit your opponents' shields and not the AI's. ICs may have their ice blocks to "counter" camping, but they're slow and you can just bounce them back with an attack, or projectile, or shield them, or just jump over them, so they're not really a "counter"... In Kirby's case, we can't camp with attacks, but we CAN aircamp and attack with aerials. It's much better to attack them from the air and get hit with uairs once in a while, than landing and getting grabbed.

If your character has a spike, as soon as you separate the AI, push her over the stage and don't stop being aggressive, then spike her to her doom. Now you only have one IC to take care of, make sure he doesn't go offstage attempting to save the one you just spiked.

The key to the matchup is playing it all outside of their grab range. Kirby can play it from the air, if he runs out of jumps and is forced to land in front of the ICs, learn to use footstools in a pinch, they'll be waiting down there with their shields raised ready to shieldgrab anything you try to do (even landing with no attacks)... So footstool their shields and jump to the ledges/platforms so that you can recover your jumps and continue to fight without losing a stock. Some characters are forced to the ground and don't have the ability to stay in the air for longer periods of time, so they have this disadvantage. However, some of them compensate by having projectiles or range (Snake, Marth, Falco, Diddy...), so they still play from outside of the IC's grab ranges and manage to pull them apart, then kill the AI and later concentrate on the main one.



I lost my train of thought. **** you, Monster Hunter 3!

I agree. That's the approach Kirby would need to take, as well as most other characters, too.

 

[Berserker.]

So what's your verdict now?

Mine is 60:40 ICs

 

[Aglow]

People can tell you that "No one character is easier to cg than another", but I know that almost every dedicted IC main has practiced CGing meta-knight 'till their hands hurt, and Kirby has almost identical properties concerning throws. I see that a lot of people are bringing up final cutter as one of the better options in this MU: I couln't disagree more. Only the more daft IC's will maintain an andvancing s-hopped blizzard wall when they see you pull out cutter. Good ones will bait it, get you in a down throw chain with popo until nana gets there to finish the job.

Concerning counterpicks: I hate playing on Norfair the most. But that's just me.

 

[Kewkky]

I see that a lot of people are bringing up final cutter as one of the better options in this MU: I couln't disagree more. Only the more daft IC's will maintain an andvancing s-hopped blizzard wall when they see you pull out cutter. Good ones will bait it, get you in a down throw chain with popo until nana gets there to finish the job.

I haven't backed up the "use FC against ICs" argument, but if the IC main is doing his blizzard thing, it doesn't matter if he keeps advancing or not. Time your FC while retreating whenever Popo jumps to start his blizzard, and he's going to get hit. FC is faster and has enough range for this purpose.

 

[Miamisportsfan45]

People can tell you that "No one character is easier to cg than another", but I know that almost every dedicted IC main has practiced CGing meta-knight 'till their hands hurt, and Kirby has almost identical properties concerning throws. I see that a lot of people are bringing up final cutter as one of the better options in this MU: I couln't disagree more. Only the more daft IC's will maintain an andvancing s-hopped blizzard wall when they see you pull out cutter. Good ones will bait it, get you in a down throw chain with popo until nana gets there to finish the job.

Concerning counterpicks: I hate playing on Norfair the most. But that's just me.

I can understand why Norfair would be the most hated counterpick. Too much time seperation and time off the ground for Ice Climbers.

 

[Berserker.]

Never tried out Norfair but thanks for informing me.

What stages do you guys CP against ICs?

 

[Miamisportsfan45]

Never tried out Norfair but thanks for informing me.

What stages do you guys CP against ICs?

Anything with multiple short platforms.

 

[Berserker.]

You're talking about Brinstar?

Cause it has 3 small I mean tiny platforms


Ban FD against ICs. I forgot about that.

 

[Miamisportsfan45]

You're talking about Brinstar?

Cause it has 3 small I mean tiny platforms


Ban FD against ICs. I forgot about that.

Any stages that resemble the same qualities as Brinstar.

 

[Zigsta]

i think popo is better than ivysuar lol

You guys are craaaaaazy.

 

[Hylian]

You guys are craaaaaazy.

What happens every time it's your ivy vs my sopo?


Every time?


EVERY TIME?

 

[Zigsta]

What happens every time it's your ivy vs my sopo?


Every time?


EVERY TIME?

Daaaaang, Hylian callin' me OUT!

If I weren't so busy this week, I'd take you on, sucka.

 

[Hylian]

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