Match-Up Export #20: Sonic| Stage Discussion

[TKD]

6/4 Fox's favor. I wouldn't risk stating it's better than that.
This match-up is REALLY SPECIAL. If you don't know it, it's probably 3/7 Sonic's favor.

Fighting against Sonic is very different than fighting other characters. I read a statement I liked from Chaos Leader: It's not which moves you use, but HOW you use them. Let me explain:

- Blaster does work against Sonic. It's impossible to short-hop with the intent of blastering against him unless you're almost at opposite sides of Final Destination because it takes too long. You should perform it upon landing if you're already in the air and won't get hit anyway.
- I think that the Fox player should be avoiding the opponent by short-hop air-jumping (maybe full hopping works too) and approaching or moving away from above.
- Each time you need to wait a bit, shine to stall your landing.
- React. You have shine, air-dodge, nair (there's also bair which can be performed lagless or safe on block, just don't whiff it). If you nair into Sonic, make it impossible to shield-grab if he's going to or able to block. Still, his grab isn't a big punish, specially if you DI his uthrow into him.
- You can blaster every time he gives you a chance to drift away from him while landing.
- If spin dash isn't fully charged, you can jab him out of it. UTILT ISN'T RELIABLE. Remember that your reaction time is only human, and that your utilt will stale anyway because of things like nair>utilt>utilt. You should be familiar with spin dash dynamics. He can jump into action (aerial or spring), if he starts it from the air he can block upon landing. If he charges the lobbing spin dash (the one that starts with a small hop), he can jump instead of releasing it.
- A really specific punish, but if Sonic's spring isn't hitting you, you can dsmash his down air (stepping a bit away if its hit-box can reach you.
- While falling, you can try to beat a spin-dash that's going into you with an aerial, but I think Sonic's fair can come out quickly enough to out-prioritize your action.

I think the match-up is a reaction thing. You can sort of play a run-away game, but it consists of jumps. Apply your mix-ups of course. Don't EVER get hit by fsmash (if you see it, shine to stall landing or air-dodge away. You can punish by falling with an aerial during his cool-down or if on the ground, you can wait for his whiff and dash usmash).

You'll be amazed at how often you can blaster Sonic this way. You don't commit into jumping and then blastering, you just blaster every time you have a free landing. Sonic's KO moves are bair, fsmash and an uair very high on the screen. They're all...not amazing. Oh yeah, you can also punish a whiffed bair with dash usmash if you see the chance (considering the position they perform it and whatnot). Sonic isn't good at KOing. Those all have pretty big start-up and are punishable on whiff. Fox's ability to stall his landing (or mix-up with drift away air-dodge) help a lot. Remember to smash DI his usmash. Oh! Forgot about dsmash. Pretty big start-up as well.

None of these ideas are final. This is what I consider adequate game play for the match-up right now.
I don't think the match-up's around even at all, but I do think it may be close. It's possible that people just don't know how to play it correctly.

....sonics only valid options are to hit and run fox....

Hit and run? More like chase Fox the entire match. I've played it. I have to run away the whole match. And it's fast-paced because Sonic chases so quickly.

SDIing behind Fox is the BEST method.
Simply because the Usmash takes a longer time to hit.

I'm disappointed. Such an important player unaware of turn-around action buffering...? Usmash takes the same amount of frames, turn-around or not.

 

[Trillion]

- If spin dash isn't fully charged, you can jab him out of it. UTILT ISN'T RELIABLE. Remember that your reaction time is only human, and that your utilt will stale anyway because of things like nair>utilt>utilt. You should be familiar with spin dash dynamics. He can jump into action (aerial or spring), if he starts it from the air he can block upon landing. If he charges the lobbing spin dash (the one that starts with a small hop), he can jump instead of releasing it.

You lost any and all credibility when you said this.

If the only Sonics that you have played use Spin Dash as an approach, then you don't know the match up well enough to comment on it.

 

[Trillion]

You all keep forgetting that Dsmash is a kill move for Sonic. Also, Jort and I played this match aabout 20 times yesterday and against Fox's slow charging firefox, a downthrow or anything else that will knock Fox a bit below the stage will give him more than enough time to drop down and use fair and fair becomes an easy gimping kill move.

 

[TKD]

Spindash or not, people should know what to do against it. And I don't think gimping Fox as Sonic should be common at all.

 

[Conviction]

\
Fox can't illusion to the center of the stage to reset stage positioning very easily. Sonic can dash backwards and land a dash attack at worst or a pivot Fsmash at best (it's possible to do it unpunished, but at least 50% of the time, you will get hit for at least some damage).


Fox has better kill options than Sonic overall in this match up, but not by a lot.

Fox can't rack up damage as easily as he can against many other characters when his gun is basically taken away and several of his kill options are hard to land when fighting Sonic's speed. Sonic still has difficulties killing, but has slightly better zoning options imo for racking up damage a bit faster than Fox can.

LOL you shouldn't commenting seeing your post.

I'm pointing out all your bad points in your post.

1) What good Fox illisions onto stage unless the opponet is grabbing the ledge?
2) Lol I've already showed Fox has A lot more Kill options than Sonic
3) Fox can use laser and because we won't be using it as much we can use the A button? Fox will rack damage on sonic like any other character with less lasering.

We have many combos and Sonic is special he auto-dodges these.

Example. AC Fair>FH Dair, Dair>Utilt, JJC>Shine, many others that I don't have the time to post. Sooo so you wanna nitpick better check yourself as well.

 

[Robfox]

Fox's favor really. In my opinion I think it's equal the victor will be due to MU experience and skill idt one has more advantages over the other. (I main both but this is just my opinion)

 

[Trillion]

LOL you shouldn't commenting seeing your post.

I'm pointing out all your bad points in your post.

1) What good Fox illisions onto stage unless the opponet is grabbing the ledge?
2) Lol I've already showed Fox has A lot more Kill options than Sonic
3) Fox can use laser and because we won't be using it as much we can use the A button? Fox will rack damage on sonic like any other character with less lasering.

We have many combos and Sonic is special he auto-dodges these.

Example. AC Fair>FH Dair, Dair>Utilt, JJC>Shine, many others that I don't have the time to post. Sooo so you wanna nitpick better check yourself as well.

1.) I've seen many Foxs who illusion to the center of the stage because if the opponent does not shield the illusion, they get hit and the hit stun gives the Fox plenty of time get out of the lag and free to move again without having to worry about the opponent hitting them. If the illusion IS shieleded, then you are only punished if the opponent was standing far enough back that they are in position to punish you, i.e. they were not trying to stand near the ledge. The point is, that while many characters who stand near the ledge to try to punish Fox end up allowing Fox to just illusion to the center, Sonic is fast enough that this is not the case.

2.) Fox has more kill techniques, they are not OPTIONS, if they are not going to commonly work on Sonic. As SL84 is showing, both of your drill options aren't even possible when a Sonic SDIs them. Fox will not outreach Sonic with nair or bair, so anything coming from those is not very reliable. It's almost never going to happen that Sonic is standing still on the stage long enough that you will be able to hit him with your shine and then get out an upsmash for a kill. You may have many potential kill set ups, but how often are you actually going to be in position to use them? When you consider it this way, Sonic has only a tad few killing options than Fox.

3) Fox can use laser and because we won't be using it as much we can use the A button? Fox will rack damage on sonic like any other character with less lasering.

Not entirely sure what this means. Fox can't just hop around taking shots at Sonic. We Sonic's play a bait and punish and pressuring style game. With only 60 frames to cover all of FD, you are almost never going to be safe to actually use laser. If you are saying that rather than using laser you can just switch up your style, then yes, that is indeed true. However, in many cases Sonic can outreach Fox, so you will just encounter another problem.

 

[Robfox]

You all keep forgetting that Dsmash is a kill move for Sonic. Also, Jort and I played this match aabout 20 times yesterday and against Fox's slow charging firefox, a downthrow or anything else that will knock Fox a bit below the stage will give him more than enough time to drop down and use fair and fair becomes an easy gimping kill move.

Sorry for double posting before I start
but Sonic's Dsmash has to much starting (and a little ending) lag to be a reliable kill move. It has good knockback no doubt but has to be used at the right moment. And as for dthrow firefox thing most foxes dont instantly use firefox once they are off the stage considering shine and the leverage fair. (Im not arguing btw jus....disagreeing)

 

[Trillion]

Spindash or not, people should know what to do against it. And I don't think gimping Fox as Sonic should be common at all.

If you can't insta-tech Sonic's down throw, then you'll find yourself fair gimped a surprising number of times.

 

[Trillion]

Sorry for double posting before I start
but Sonic's Dsmash has to much starting (and a little ending) lag to be a reliable kill move. It has good knockback no doubt but has to be used at the right moment. And as for dthrow firefox thing most foxes dont instantly use firefox once they are off the stage considering shine and the leverage fair. (Im not arguing btw jus....disagreeing)

I know they don't just go straight to firefox, I'm sure they almost always use the double jump rising Fair thing they have. Sonic can beat that thing out. I got a bunch of vids from just yesterday and I'll upload instances of what I'm talking about.

 

[Conviction]

Jab frametraps into Shine. You don't have to be standing there we just have to jab you.

 

[Robfox]

I know what you are saying with the dthrow thing I do it myself but it almost never works on advanced players. You are right on the fair gimping thing but jus like the dthrow combo it almost never works. Overall Sonic has nothing over Fox as Fox has nothing over Sonic. Nothing major anyway.

 

[AvaricePanda]

people getting mad over match-ups

...

lol

TKD your post helped a lot. I'm preparing for mid-tier side-events in my region, so I have to learn a ton of match-ups for a character I don't play much offline @_@

 

[Conviction]

But TKD ain't mad.

 

[Trillion]

people getting mad over match-ups

Not mad, just annoyed at people who come into match up discussions and point out a lot of strategies (i.e. if Sonic uses spin dash as an approach or is extremely stupid with spring to dair in such as way that he constantly plummets into place for a downsmash) that work against very low level Sonic players and then declare it a 60/40 match up.

 

[Conviction]

When you basically did the same for Fox ^

You mad.

 

[Trillion]

When you basically did the same for Fox ^

You mad.

Not true. I pointed out things that Fox's can't and/or shouldn't do in the match up such as not lasering, not illusioning, and gave my thoughts on kill setups and options and my thoughts on the match up as a whole. My match up conclusion was a fair 50/50, not an lol you get ***** 60/40.

 

[Conviction]

Then TKD did the about Spindash XD

You and TKD did the same thing. So either you both were pointing out things or you were both being stupid/extreme. Which one is it?

70/30 is ****

60/40 is an adv.

 

[AvaricePanda]

The problem is that Magnificent, you're taking TKD's tips for how to play the match-up (which is what more people should be doing in this thread instead of throwing useless numbers at each other) as his reasonings for it being 60-40. I don't know if that was the case; I doubt those were his reasons, but regardless you could at least ask why he thinks it's a 60-40 given those things and not just say, "I lost all credibility when you said this." Otherwise, it's perfectly good advice. Even if it's a bad Sonic approach, at least I know how to punish it.

And then Iblis (and pretty much everyone else), you're too focused on match-up numbers to discuss the match-up. It doesn't matter if Fox vs. Sonic is 4-6 or 6-4 — if I don't know how to play the match-up, I'll get wrecked in tournament regardless. Had TKD not posted, the only thing I would have learned in the match-up was, "Don't SH(D/T)L," which is something I would have probably learned within one game of playing a Sonic. Even then, TKD's post is just one post of what more people should do in match-up threads: give actual advice.

I'm not saying it's pointless to find match-up ratios — that's perfectly fine if you can do it without useless one-liners or pointing out the obvious flaws in the other character — but that shouldn't be your sole focus. Really, since match-up numbers are a representative of what happens at high level play, and most people aren't either at high level play or have an understanding of high level play to theorycraft about it, the priority should be giving advice.

But this is what most people fail to understand, and as a result most people don't take character board match-up numbers or what they say about match-ups seriously, at least not in comparison to what a pro of the character says.

 

[Trillion]

Then TKD did the about Spindash XD

You and TKD did the same thing. So either you both were pointing out things or you were both being stupid/extreme. Which one is it?

70/30 is ****

60/40 is an adv.

W/e dude, call it what you like. If you want to base your match up analysis around the words of someone who has clearly played only a very sub par Sonic, then it will be your loss when you aren't prepared for that match up, no skin off my nose. I've given in depth explanations and even prepared a video that I will be uploading shortly to demonstrate nearly every point that I have made plus a few more.

 

[Trillion]

give actual advice.

Fox can't laser camp because sonic can cover the distance of FD in 60 frames.

Fox can't gimp his recovery very easily at all. Sonic has about 1000 recovery options (simply springing, combinations of spins and springs, spinning until under ledges and then wall hopping into more spins, etc.).

Sonic is not light at all as was said by SL84 before me. Fox's upsmash will still kill him by about 105% or so I believe.

Sonic's well spaced back and up airs generally out do Fox when both are in the air i believe.

Sonic is pretty limited to killing with Fsmash, Dsmash, and Bair.

Sonic can still make up air chase kills work, but against a Fox who is prepared for it, it will rarely work. Dairing as Sonic springs up can hit him and cause him to fail the kill, but a well spaced up air will be disjointed enough to out reach Fox's dair and earn the kill. A well timed air dodge is more effective and reliable imo.

Sonic's dtilt can be chained to potentially rack up ******** amounts of damage (when started at low %s) against an unexpecting Fox, though is also not a widely used tool by Sonic players and after seeing it once or twice a Fox won't have many issues with it.

Trying to gimp Sonic is hard and you can get yourself into bad positioning if you try. If you DO want to try, be very careful or you could eat a back air that will put you in very bad positioning.

This was around the number that off the top of my head sounded like the % where you could get an uncharged up smash to kill Sonic and is my best recommendation for killing him. We can almost always make it back from the side if we don't hit the blast zone, so killing off the top is your best bet.

Sonics rely on bair, fsmash, and less often, but still frequent imo, dsmash. These are what you should be looking to avoid when you are at high %.

Don't try to dair Sonic's up air chase. It's a pretty instinctive thing to do for many people who don't play against Sonic often, air dodging is much safer.

 

[Code Lyon]

The problem is that Magnificent, you're taking TKD's tips for how to play the match-up (which is what more people should be doing in this thread instead of throwing useless numbers at each other) as his reasonings for it being 60-40. I don't know if that was the case; I doubt those were his reasons, but regardless you could at least ask why he thinks it's a 60-40 given those things and not just say, "I lost all credibility when you said this." Otherwise, it's perfectly good advice. Even if it's a bad Sonic approach, at least I know how to punish it.

And then Iblis (and pretty much everyone else), you're too focused on match-up numbers to discuss the match-up. It doesn't matter if Fox vs. Sonic is 4-6 or 6-4 — if I don't know how to play the match-up, I'll get wrecked in tournament regardless. Had TKD not posted, the only thing I would have learned in the match-up was, "Don't SH(D/T)L," which is something I would have probably learned within one game of playing a Sonic. Even then, TKD's post is just one post of what more people should do in match-up threads: give actual advice.

I'm not saying it's pointless to find match-up ratios — that's perfectly fine if you can do it without useless one-liners or pointing out the obvious flaws in the other character — but that shouldn't be your sole focus. Really, since match-up numbers are a representative of what happens at high level play, and most people aren't either at high level play or have an understanding of high level play to theorycraft about it, the priority should be giving advice.

But this is what most people fail to understand, and as a result most people don't take character board match-up numbers or what they say about match-ups seriously, at least not in comparison to what a pro of the character says.

He won the thread.

W/e dude, call it what you like. If you want to base your match up analysis around the words of someone who has clearly played only a very sub par Sonic, then it will be your loss when you aren't prepared for that match up, no skin off my nose. I've given in depth explanations and even prepared a video that I will be uploading shortly to demonstrate nearly every point that I have made plus a few more.

You mad.

And what if your brother is sub-par. I can tell you gonna say no cause it's gonna be a family Bias.



On-topic :
I will share what I have for now cause I gotta go soon.

Watch out for Fair. Remember if a Sonic is not using the disjoint of the Fair, you OoS Usmash it. Sonic's Bair and Fox's Bair trade, our Uair beats of his aerials like it does for most of our MUs. So get Sonic above you start pressuring with AC Fairs and Uairs he can't stall in the like us, you will hit him or miss but land laglessly and be able to reset the situtation. I'm not sure how well Sonic does with vertical spacing but since Fox excels here use it to your adv. Full Jumping will aid in this MU. TKD has already gone into depth about it.

Yes camping is a factor in this match, but you will not find yourself using SHDL/SHTL. Use your most mobile form of lasering, SHL, it will be able to keep us mobile and it's not auto-commit like SHTL or SHDL.

I would a more but I gotta jet. So kids stop fighting like little girls.

 

[Trillion]

And what if your brother is sub-par. I can tell you gonna say no cause it's gonna be a family Bias.

I'm not mad. Neither my brother nor I is M2K. He prefers playing PT over Fox and I wouldn't for a second say that either of is the very best player of our characters. However, we both know what we are doing and he is a good player.

I don't know for sure just how good of a Fox he is, but that is not the point here. I have been talking about specific situations that will apply such as dodging sonic's up air chase or how fast sonic can cover the stage as an explanation for why lasering should be minimized. I have explained that fair can hit through firefox and Fox's rising fair. These are situations that can and will likely occur in each match. These things should be noted and accounted for.

He on the other hand was talking about Sonics who use spin dash as an approach or use spring > dair recklessly and land themselves into down smashes. These are things that only very low level Sonics do and should not be factored into a match up ratio.

 

[Conviction]

Lyon thank you I almost forgot about SHL's uses.

DI away while Rising Fair will stop that from happening I'm sure Fair gives Fox a horizontal momentum boost as well.

 

[Kewkky]

magnificentmarth, he didn't say Sonic's gonna approach with sideB. He just pointed out what would be the best possible thing to do whenever a Sonic does sideB. Or would you rather no one ever knew what to do whenever a Sonic spindashes? That's apparently what you're saying from what I have read.

You're taking things out of context.



Oh, and it's Fox's advantage. I don't think I need to explain much, since already all the fox mainers and sonic mainers pointed out the most crucial things about the matchup. Just giving my simple imput to show that I agree with it being Fox's advantage.

 

[GUARD]

Fox should be smart and be patient... if he is then I`m sorry to say this but Sonic is no match AT ALL.

Personally, I think that the way to fight Sonic is to ``dodge and punish``. it may prove more difficult for Fox to be SUPER agresive. and if Sonic feels like staying where he is for some reason, the Fox needs to laser.......probably SH1L since you can dodge and attack before and after the laser.

if the Fox is very patient, then you really shouldn`t lose against a Sonic.........its FAR from being evan or in Sonics favour.

also, Sonic can`t kill for **** , but fox can.

 

[Trillion]

magnificentmarth, he didn't say Sonic's gonna approach with sideB. He just pointed out what would be the best possible thing to do whenever a Sonic does sideB. Or would you rather no one ever knew what to do whenever a Sonic spindashes? That's apparently what you're saying from what I have read.

You're taking things out of context.

No. You misunderstand. Sonics do not just side b or down b willy nilly where you can say... hmmm.. I think I will jab or uptilt to block this. We wait until there is a good opening such as when you are falling or when you are in lag. It is rare that you will be standing in a neutral position capable of doing that and we will go ahead and just spin dash anyway. Also, the hop of the forward b has invincibility frames, so jabbing or uptilting won't do anything then either.

Also, just for the sake of testing it. I checked when Fox's fresh up smash can kill Sonic on FD. If Sonic is at 102% (before you use the upsmash), he can DI and live. If he is at 103% or above (before you use the upsmash) then he will die off the top no matter how much he DIs. So, I believe that this is probably the earliest you can kill us and probably your best kill option.

 

[Conviction]

Stage Discussion go!

Foxes Cp Halberd

Your Nuetral here is ummm BF i would think cause all the stuff we can do on it. If not PS1 or FD sounds good.

Ban Lylat like usual.

I will wait to for Sonic to tell me what stages are good on before I go further.

 

[Kewkky]

No. You misunderstand. Sonics do not just side b or down b willy nilly where you can say... hmmm.. I think I will jab or uptilt to block this. We wait until there is a good opening such as when you are falling or when you are in lag. It is rare that you will be standing in a neutral position capable of doing that and we will go ahead and just spin dash anyway. Also, the hop of the forward b has invincibility frames, so jabbing or uptilting won't do anything then either.

But then, what's so bad about pointing out the best course of action for a Fox when Sonic sideBs? Sure, Sonic will sideB whenever he's sure it's gonna hit, but if you sideB a little too early then wouldn't it be a good idea for Fox to know what to do in that situation?

 

[Trillion]

But then, what's so bad about pointing out the best course of action for a Fox when Sonic sideBs? Sure, Sonic will sideB whenever he's sure it's gonna hit, but if you sideB a little too early then wouldn't it be a good idea for Fox to know what to do in that situation?

The point is that its not a major part of the match up because it will rarely be the case that you will be in position to do it because we make it a point not to put ourselves in that situation. We know how easy our spins can be stopped so we don't just spin around hoping that you won't jab our spin dash, we make sure that you won't be in position to do that in the first place.

 

[Conviction]

What Kewkky is trying to say is what if you make mistake and do it not when are supposed to, a Fox should know what to do. In others words he is hitting all the bases of the MU it doesn't have to be MU ratio changing but good to know.

EDIT: We do rate MUs based on High level of play but no one is perfect.

 

[Trillion]

What Kewkky is trying to say is what if you make mistake and do it not when are supposed to, a Fox should know what to do. In others words he is hitting all the bases of the MU it doesn't have to be MU ratio changing but good to know.

If you feel it is important to note, then go ahead. I can almost guarantee that you will probably never use it at tourney level. It has very little impact on the match up as a whole and is true for every single character, not just Fox. Nearly every attack in the game can clink with Sonic's spin dash and cause us to stop.

 

[Conviction]

Noooo you not understanding what we are saying. Anything that helps is useful. It doesn't have to be MU changing.

Like we have AR>Usmash on MK but it's not MU changing still nice to know though.

 

[Trillion]

This video shows some of the things I pointed out before.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qlmsl-ugW2Q


Some Sonics are very good at walking off the stage and using his dair as is shown near the end of the video. The beginning of Sonics dair sends people very far sideways. Against Fox and Falco, this can easily send them outside of the range that Illusion can cover. I personally am very bad at using this tactic, but it may be worth noting that this is a potential danger while you are trying to recover.

 

[Conviction]

I will watch the vid later. I have friend's birthday party to go to

Idk when I will be back though

 

[Kewkky]

magnificentmarth, who are you? Have I ever seen your name in tourney results? Or heard your name from other people who go to tourneys?

Just saying, if you don't go to tourneys on a regular basis, how can you talk about the highest levels of play, or what happens in tourneys? It's all cool with theory alone since got good theorycrafters here and there, but they also go to tourneys and have witnessed firsthand what the top level of play is like.

 

[Trillion]

magnificentmarth, who are you? Have I ever seen your name in tourney results? Or heard your name from other people who go to tourneys?

Should I ask the same of you?

I don't go by this tag anymore. I don't know any mods who I can ask to change it for me. I now go by Magnum.

I don't go to many tourneys. Missouri has few good smash players and with college I don't travel far. If you know of Cook's Olimar (I hear he's somewhat well known?) or Nicole/IronBoots33's Diddy/G&W/w/e else, I've played against them and am around their level. I've played Legan on Wifi (yeah WIFI sucks, he lives near me so I should be able to play him IRL soon) and I was better than him in those matches. If you search Sonic combo vids on youtube mine is the first that comes up. I've only been in like 3 tourneys and recently took first in one that was largely vs. scrubs at an anime convention.

I'm not an extremely well known Sonic player. Certainly not like Malcolm or Shugo. But I do know my character very well and watch many videos of top Sonics from tourneys. There are many match ups that I don't know, but Fox is one that I have played many many times.

 

[AvaricePanda]

I don't know for sure just how good of a Fox he is, but that is not the point here.

TKD is the best Fox by margins, consistently placing 1st in Tijuana and often placing 1st or at least top 5 in SoCal tournaments when he goes.

Not saying that everything he says is true or correct, but don't doubt his skill since he's easily the best lol

 

[Conviction]

Mind naming any of the Foxes if you remember?


EDIT: TKD is the MK in the Fox Tier list. Ban him!

 

[Kewkky]

Should I ask the same of you?

I'm top 5 in Puerto Rico, and have travelled to USA for what I would consider an international tourney, since Europe participated as well (Pound 4). I've seen the top of the metagame firsthand, and I got a lot of compliments from all sorts of players whenever we played. My tag is my name, Kewkky. People have said I'm hands down top 3 in the best Kirbies they've ever played against, although I can't say I'm the best right now since YbM is much more active than me due to him living in USA, same goes for ChuDat (and he retired).

Just in case, I play more characters than just Kirby and ZSS. Plus, since I've seen the top of the metagame firsthand, I can lend a hand to discussions I know about without feeling like I might be too inexperienced to do so... But I'm just here to point out why you can't deny information given while discussing MUs, even if it sounds useless there's a chance you'll have to use it, and it's better to be prepared than not to.

I don't go by this tag anymore. I don't know any mods who I can ask to change it for me. I now go by Magnum.

I don't go to many tourneys. Missouri has few good smash players and with college I don't travel far. If you know of Cook's Olimar (I hear he's somewhat well known?) or Nicole/IronBoots33's Diddy/G&W/w/e else, I've played against them and am around their level. I've played Legan on Wifi (yeah WIFI sucks, he lives near me so I should be able to play him IRL soon) and I was better than him in those matches. If you search Sonic combo vids on youtube mine is the first that comes up. I've only been in like 3 tourneys and recently took first in one that was largely vs. scrubs at an anime convention.

I'm not an extremely well known Sonic player. Certainly not like Malcolm or Shugo. But I do know my character very well and watch many videos of top Sonics from tourneys. There are many match ups that I don't know, but Fox is one that I have played many many times.

Nope, never heard of you... Have you ever played against top Foxes? Or been in a top-level match against top players?

I've only been in like 3 tourneys and recently took first in one that was largely vs. scrubs at an anime convention.

Those kind of tourneys, even if you win them, don't count as "top level of play". heck I wouldn't call it "high level of play" either, more like mid-level.


What I'm trying to point out is that, if you don't know how the mechanics behind top-level situations work, then denying any information that would help someone in such rare situations certainly is not a smart move for an aspiring brawler. Even some of the information that seems like it won't be applied in matches, will come in handy eventually, and it would do you good to know as much as possible about a given situation before confronting it to make sure you have an answer to whatever may happen. Fox's jab stops Sonic's sideB, and is a better option than utilt? As far as I have seen, lots of people were recommending utilt, so they weren't aware of the fact that jab was the best option in that situation. Would you deny them the knowledge for them to have all their aces up against an opposing Sonic player?