Match Up Discussion: Snake ~

[Bomber7]

There's really no point in arguing with you. You're talking to a bunch of people that are tournament winners or regularly play tournament winners and you seem bent on your opinion being right despite having none of this crucial experience.

I'm just throwing my opinion out there, this is a thread after all. I never said I was right.

 

[Bomber7]

OKAY, JUST SCREW COUNTER ALTOGETHER.

Apparently it's a sucky move and Sakurai was an idiot to include it.
And when the heck does Fox's usmash come out?

Well if you feel that strongly about counter then why not attack the Star-Fox characters for thier reflecters. They act in alomst the same way except towards projectile characters. (sorry for not using multi-quote)

 

[Kizzu-kun]

I can't really say much since I got knocked out of a tourney from both a MK then a Snake (lol), so I'll pester you with questions instead.

With Snake, I discard my passive style with a more offensive style, but how does one approach him? I'd say most start with grenades, cooking them and then throwing them in the middle. Would it be advised to rush him with a shield and try to pressure him there, or what?

I know that I have a lot of trouble at the start of a new stock as he's temporarily invincible which allows him to set-up a decent amount of explosives. Mines are easy to avoid generally, while C4s are usually explode immediately since humans don't want their forgetfulness to backfire on them. Should they kee pit out long though, it can only be avoided.

So these grenades I find annoying. The Snake can leave it out for a random amount of time then throw it out. How long does the grenade generally take to explode? 6 seconds or so? Should I use pick one up then rush at him?

Wow, I feel redundant somehow.

Ah, and Kizzu, you can use Utilt if you prefer for some juggling. As long as you do not overuse it, it should be refreshed generally for you to kill with later. It's a very good move that doesn't suffer from overuse compared to Dancing Blade and Fair.

Oh and yes, Counter used sparingly can help, but overusing it will allow harsh punishment from Snake. It is something that cannot be abused frequently in this match-up.

Random other question: Do any of your attack out-range Ftilt? I find it unlikely, but the only candidates are Shield Breaker and Ftilt.

Blah, blah, blah. xD

Actually Marth don't need an agressive style, I think.
He needs a defensive close-quarters style.

Marth needs to be in a reasonable distance from Snake (that distance isn't too much), and attack in the exact point, waiting for his delays and such. He can't hesitate, but needs to have caution. But this is more when he is on the ground (stupid tilts lol). In the air he is a naked snake.

Imo Marth needs to 'feel' the exact momment to attack.

For the granades, you can't really catch them if your opponent is a bit smart.
He won't give you time to counter-attack the granade.
Just avoid them or catch and instantely Air Dodge.
And don't try to catch with an aerial for obvious dumb reasons.

I can be very wrong, like I said, I still want more experience.
Please don't let this stop, discussing match-ups is so fun
XD~

 

[Emblem Lord]

Did you guys really argue over counter for 3 pages?

Don't tell me I overestimated my beloved Marth community?

I'm disappointed.

*flings back my cape as I walk away

 

[VietGeek]

I'm just throwing my opinion out there, this is a thread after all. I never said I was right.

I don't think Junk was talking to you. Seeing as weren't part of this discussion until recently.

Also, WHY ARE YOU ALWAYS SO VAGUE?!

*ehem*

Yes sir, please explain why.

Actually Marth don't need an agressive style, I think.
He needs a defensive close-quarters style.

Marth needs to be in a reasonable distance from Snake (that distance isn't too much), and attack in the exact point, waiting for his delays and such. He can't hesitate, but needs to have caution. But this is more when he is on the ground (stupid tilts lol). In the air he is a naked snake.

Imo Marth needs to 'feel' the exact momment to attack.

For the granades, you can't really catch them if your opponent is a bit smart.
He won't give you time to counter-attack the granade.
Just avoid them or catch and instantely Air Dodge.
And don't try to catch with an aerial for obvious dumb reasons.

I can be very wrong, like I said, I still want more experience.
Please don't let this stop, discussing match-ups is so fun
XD~

Hmm, well, I mean pressure him in offensively, but you must know when to defend in close quarters of course, or else his tilts with destroy you. Dancing Blade out of shield seems reasonable here if Snake tries to retaliate with a tilt.

Naked Snake pun is funny.

I would assume you're right that if anything, you can only catch it with an air dodge. Otherwise, aerials will make it explode in your face, while picking it up is risky since you can jab it and the grab item function of A is really unstable (why did they not make us grab the item with literally grab?), and Snake wants you to do that so he can mortar slide Marth.

Well, we can't discuss Counter all day, so we'll go back to your plan Kizzu. To talk about this Snake fellow and such.

@ Pierce7d: What you've said is very informative, but do you really recommend Countering grenades? Can't Snake leave them out and pick them back up randomly so that you don't know when they will explode? Or is it always at a constant of 6 seconds approximately?

Hell, let me go verify it myself (waits for siblings to stop playing Subspace T_T).

Did you guys really argue over counter for 3 pages?

Don't tell me I overestimated my beloved Marth community?

I'm disappointed.

*flings back my cape as I walk away

No. Mostly just Junk and PCHU. lol

 

[Megavitamins]

Did you guys really argue over counter for 3 pages?

Don't tell me I overestimated my beloved Marth community?

I'm disappointed.

*flings back my cape as I walk away

Not the marth community, PCHU.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Snake - Snake is a monster. His ground game rivals yours in speed and his range is virtually equal to yours on his tilts. His jab combo is also fast and strong.Also his f-tilt is a great damage racker and his u-tilt kills around 100%. As if you are playing a Marth ditto stay on the ground. Only use SH aerials when you are already close, since if you approach with them, you will eat an f-tilt to the face. His u-tilt is deadly so you MUST be aware of it's range. It's about the same range as Marth's jab. Snake has a good throw game thanks to his d-throw. Sets up a free tech chase so be sure to switch up what you do after it. Some can roll right or left, wake up in place, or wake up attack. If you start waiting to do an action, Snake can stick a C4 on you so be careful. Snake has an awesome control game thanks to all his explosives. Grenades can thrown at you or cooked then tossed at you so they explode quickly. C4's can be be planted and used as surprise moves. Mines are simply pure space control. Well grenades can be tossed back at Snake and shielded. Mines can be hit or used against Snake. C4's can be difficult to actually hit with as long as you pay attention. You can DI his jab combo too. Just DI back and the third hit should miss most of the time, then you can punish. You will want to rely more on d-tilts on this match-up, since they outrange all of Snake's moves except the second hit of his f-tilt. Try to keep Snake in the air since he is juggle bait. He doesn't have alot of options when being juggled. For edgeguarding you can just grab the cypher when he is close and if you don't do anything, he will drop to his death when he gets out. If he is a bit farther out you can just spike him. If he is even farther just Nair him for the kill. Good Snake's will try to just recover high which means he sets himself for a juggle situation. No matter how Snake recovers Marth can take advantage of the situation. The Snake dash is also tough to deal with. To counter it you can try using SH fairs, using your counter, or shielding it and then chasing him down to punish. The key to beating Snake is to pay attention to his movements and what he does at all times. Keep him in the air to make things easier for yourself. Don't worry too much about his explosives. It's his close range game that's the real threat. He can also bring out grenades and shield so that if you attack you eat the explosion, or he can bring out a grenade and roll so he avoids you while you get hit. You can just grab or use shieldbreaker or even just space well with your attacks when he abuses shielding to drop grenades. If he rolls alot after bringing out a grenade just space your fairs then punish when he rolls or wait for the roll then punish. Also Snake has his Nikita missile for long range play and edgeguarding. Just hit it to deflect it with an attack, shield it, or roll past it.

This is right from my match-up thread.

I don't think there is much of a trick to fighting Snake. You just have to pay attention to explosives and watch your spacing.

When juggling I use uairs to force airdodges and I will fast fall them so I recover quickly then I will do an U-smash or grab to u-throw. Either way I reset the situation. If I want to go for the kill I will definitely go for the U-smash.

Also when I play Snake I'm neither aggressive nor defensive. I do w/e the situation calls for. When I want to approach though I play it smart. I walk up slowly and usually I'm ready to shield. When I'm in f-tilt distance I will shield. 8 out of 10 they will attack you. Block it then drop your shield and go for a Dancing Blade or U-throw. Only go for a grab if you are already fairly close to Snake otherwise you won't get the grab off in time.

If you are close to Snake and you want to approach you can usually get away with a dash in to Dancing Blade. Very fast in execution and can catch people off guard. No one will be able to react to it honestly. The most they could do is predict it and shield or roll. If that happens you need to either stop your attack or delay the next hit if they shielded since they may try to attack so if you delay it and then attack you may still catch them. But that's just a guessing game.

Let me go back to talking about keeping Snake of the ledge. When Snake is on the ledge spacing yourself so that you are just outside the reach of his ledge attack. This way you have covered several options. You are now able to react to his normal get up, ledge attack and ledge roll.

Smart players will realize this. They will try to ledge jump airdodge. When you see Snake go into the air immediately fair him. If you are fast enough he won't be able to airdodge in time. You could also just wait for the jump and airdodge then retaliate. With proper spacing he won't be able to actually hit you so don't worry about that. As long as you are smart and patient while keeping him on the ledge you can keep him there for quite a awhile since his options are covered by you. Just don't screw up your spacing or get impatient.

Also be aware that Snake can ledge guard you just as easily. Marth's options from the ledge are very poor as well, and Snake can also space himself really well on the stage. Luckily for Marth Snake does not have the speed to really go air to air vs Marth so a ledge jump is effective in dealing with this. Steal when you do a ledge jump be very careful. Do a few ledge drop double jumps so you drop and re-grab the ledge. This is just to mess with the Snake's head and throw off his timing. When you do the ledge jump you can fair, jump again, counter or airdodge. Remember your options and use them as the situation calls for them. Snakes ledgeguarding isn't quite as good as yours since he lacks your speed. Keep that in mind. But avoid rolling towards him for the ledge, as you will most likely eat an u-tilt.

That's pretty much it from me.

Ummm, is there anything else that you guys want me to address?

 

[∫unk]

I'm just throwing my opinion out there, this is a thread after all. I never said I was right.

I was talking to the PCHU. You're fine :D

 

[Pierce7d]

Eh, I counter a detonation whenever it's predictable enough to use counter, and especially if Snake has the controlled port advantage, and is trying to get frequent grabs. I leave Dsmashes on the stage, because I always find it easier to hit Snake into them then visa versa, but most Snakes are smart enough not to use Dsmash.

I don't juggle Snake in the traditionally way. I just push him off the stage with Dancing Blade, which I spam as much as possible to keep my moves fresh, and then I edgeguard the crap outta him. I have a VERY easy time spiking Snake if he doesn't UpB immediately, and this cuts off his options quick, and leads to more juggling, which can be lead into a mindgame to toss him back off the edge.

 

[TKD+ITA+Mar=]

I have pretty much said all my thoughts on my thread.

As for Aggressive vs. Defensive, I think that you should neither be Aggressive nor Defensive, but should apply pressure; don't let him set you up with his explosive mind games.

 

[Ulevo]

I really wish I could put some solid input on this match, but I really can't. No one I know plays Snake except me, and I rarely play him as it is. I only have visual knowledge from videos and common sense off hand. I'll do some testing later on to see what may and may not work on him to attempt to contribute something.

Also El, put the towel around your neck back in the bathroom.

 

[BanKai029]

Well people the way i look at it. He has a gun. You have a sword. Do the math people its not hard

 

[alchfilosofer]

A gun from military VS a sword blessed by the gods.... Hmm i wonder what's of diner

 

[ChaosKnight]

Well from what ulevo said with the easy spike when a snake is near a ledge(and under 6%) do you think its also possible after the dair to have an option of cypher grabbing him or is ultimately the best option to get on the ledge and either spike him or just stay on the ledge?

 

[TKD+ITA+Mar=]

It depends on the distance, the general positioning,the damage, and how comfortable you are with spiking. If Snake is at a higher percent, then cypher grabbing is easier, and if he tries to C4 recover he will kill himself.

 

[FishkeeperTimmay!]

I don't know if any Snake tries this against Marth anymore, but if they try to Grenade Counter to halt your advance, give a Shieldbreaker to the face. They will never Grenade Counter again. Unless they are dumb, in which case you should be winning anyway. xD

Personally, when I'm fighting Snake, I tend to work for getting him off the stage, even if its only a little bit. His 2nd jump is so bad that he will need to use this UpB, opening him up for harassment and easy damage. When he finally gets too high to hit, he'll likely be in the perfect position to start the juggling game off Up-Smash, U-tilt and U-Throw.

For KO's, I pretty much entirely rely on Tippered F-Smashes. I can occasionally get spikes, but not often. The hardest part about Snake is killing the bugger.

 

[∫unk]

Next... we should do ROB. IMO more annoying than snake.

 

[Cat Fight]

Hey, just thought I'd add my two cents in about the match up being that I main Snake.

The thing I find that really gets Marth is Snake's shield grenade or grenade counter. This can be very discouraging for an aggressive Marth player, and can allow the Snake player to get close to Marth and jab/ftilt 1st hit/grab > whatever.

Marth's dtilt poke and ftilt can be used as a method of keeping Snake from getting too close to you WITHOUT setting off his grenade counter. A way of mixing it up would be if yr spacing with dtilt and ftilt throw in a quick side b combo in the midst of Snake trying to approach. B-reversal may come in handy when trying to get inside Snake's area. Or perhaps dash and powershield to grab.

Weaving SH nairs and fairs can be dangerous for Marth because of the shield grenade. Marth being in the air makes him a lot more vulnerable to the explosion, and if Marth is DIing in hopes of teching the ground it can lead up to a tech chase downthrow.

Yr best bet is to always keep Snake in the air, or as much as you can. Also, lots of grabbing. Stages like Battlefield help with this sort of strategy. Just be careful of Fsmash through the platforms (Marth is tall enough to get hit).

That's all I can think of off the top of my head. If it'd be any help I can post some videos of Snake vs Marth later today. My friend mains Marth.

 

[Bomber7]

I don't think Junk was talking to you. Seeing as weren't part of this discussion until recently.

Also, WHY ARE YOU ALWAYS SO VAGUE?!

*ehem*

Yes sir, please explain why.

>>> Sorry about being so vague. I'm just trying to be cautious as to not get really into my thoughts and then start a flame war. Trust me that did not go over too well in my first experience in a thread on this forum(my fault). But I am learning. Forgive my incompitance.

 

[Bomber7]

I was talking to the PCHU. You're fine :D

Thanks. Sorry for the misconception. ^^'

 

[BanKai029]

well i am having pizza if you like to join me. Im in pwnville about a 5 minute drive from Walt Disney world ,Careful though i cannot stay up late i have tennis the next morning

 

[TKD+ITA+Mar=]

Also thought I might add, a usmash can kill a level 9 Snake on the center of FD, at 145%.

Which is considerably low, when you think about Snake's vertical survivability.

 

[FishkeeperTimmay!]

Also thought I might add, a usmash can kill a level 9 Snake on the center of FD, at 145%.

Which is considerably low, when you think about Snake's vertical survivability.

Is that Tipped or normal?

I would still think that Tipper FSmash is easier to land, in either case.

 

[TKD+ITA+Mar=]

It is standing right next to him, so I am guessing it would be untipped. Fsmash kills at 88%, but it gets spammed a lot and has to be tipped.

I said this in my guide, but I though I should say it here for those who didn't read it, after being hit by Snakes usmash, the projectile can be canceled by a dair.

Anyways I think these are good counterpick stages.

Battlefield
Delphino Plaza
Yoshi's Island Brawl
and Rainbow Cruise

 

[Emblem Lord]

Incorrect.

Against taller bigger characters Marth would be hard pressed to NOT get a tipper on his U-smash. It seems to tipper these types of characters pretty much 100% of the time, even when standing next to them. The vacuum effect sends them right into the sweetspot.

 

[TKD+ITA+Mar=]

Oh so it is tipped, I was thinking that usmash would have to be pretty powerful for that to be untipped. Thank you for the clarification.

 

[jknockoutz]

That cyper is like a snake on a plate and Marths edgeguard game is standin there ready to give it a spike
My opinion on fighting a snake is to get the timing of the spike for marth

 

[Megavitamins]

Why would you spike if you can just grab the cypher? Spiking is so stupid hard to do, if you miss, snake might get back on the ledge before you, and then you're set up for an edgeguard, and snake IMO has one of the best.

 

[Kizzu-kun]

Why would you spike if you can just grab the cypher? Spiking is so stupid hard to do, if you miss, snake might get back on the ledge before you, and then you're set up for an edgeguard, and snake IMO has one of the best.

You probably won't use the grab cypher tactic that much.
It is very difficult that the Snake player recover to the stage from underwhere and also be too close to the edge, at the distance that you can grab him.

 

[PCHU]

I battled one of your described Snakes.
And it was just he and I on With Anyone.
WOW.
That was intense.
He got one KO on me, but the rest of the battle was spotdodging and rolling.
I see what you meant.
Snake basically sat there through the whole match.
Jumping over his bombs was a pain in the neck, and getting in hits was rather difficult.

I admit I was wrong about this, but counter was still my half-reliable friend during this intense face-off.
Sorry I argued, but HOW THE CRAP do you go about hitting him?
I got in a few sneaky hits.
I had him up to 87% by the end of the match.
His boost smash wasn't effective, but I got caught by his broken range and died.
It was amazing.
Then, I accidentally got hit by one of his attacks, and before I know it, I'm at 80%.
I don't get how you can chain attacks that well.
I mean, I'm pretty sure I would do better now since I've seen and experienced what he can do, but I'm not sure I could still win.
It's going to be rough, but if I EVER face him again, I won't fall for his broken tricks.

 

[Kizzu-kun]

@PCHU

Eh... are you getting base from Wi-fi matches? .-.
Thats not really good lol

 

[Ulevo]

@PCHU

Eh... are you getting base from Wi-fi matches? .-.
Thats not really good lol

Kizzu is correct. You can't properly space your aerials with lag effing you over, and won't be able to properly abuse your speed, which is one of the traits Marth has that will allow you to win vs Snake.

 

[Shaya]

protip: fully charged shieldbreaker in wifi does wonders against Snake. LA LA LA.

Spoiler

I feel really bad for this topic

 

[PCHU]

I have no lag.
I know when there's lag, and I experienced none throughout my epic battle.
I've had really slow matches, but they pick up about 1/3 of the way in.
Sometimes I get half-second lag, and it kills my perfect timing.
It sucks, but I deal with it anyway because I want people to respect Marth.
Marth is not cheap at all, and he should not be underestimated.
If he is underestimated, oh well, better for us because they'll be the ones crying.
I hate that half of the other Marths I see are excellent spammers.
The other half are extremely talented, and I have epic Brawls with them.

But, I get kicked off of the 'net often 'cause of our company's screwy internet.
It constantly turns on and off, and I'm sick of being in fun matches, and then being sent off halfway through.

But during that Snake match, no lag, only awesomeness.

 

[Steel]

There is lag, no wifi battle goes without lag.

Also a random Snake on "with anyone" probably isn't that good, just a guess though.

 

[Kizzu-kun]

I have no lag.

Well we all are in 2008.
Lagless is impossible for us now.

 

[∫unk]

Can Steel or EL please play him wifi (even with lag)? I'm getting sick of this.

 

[takeurlife2]

There is NO SUCH THING as lagless wifi for smash...

Even if you have a perfect connection, there will ALWAYS be buttonlag that messes up your reactions and spacing.

 

[Kizzu-kun]

Okay lets get back to the real meaning of this topic.

 

[PCHU]

Why is JITT getting so angry?
I want tips on how to beat Broken Range and speed.
I mean, I know you slice him around, but GETTING THAT HIT is what I need help with.