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Match-up Discussion 3 - Sonic

Sky Pirate

The best defense is a lot of frigging healing
Joined
Mar 10, 2009
Messages
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Location
Elgin, Texas
NNID
SkyPirateCoud
3DS FC
1590-4884-8497
SONIC THE HEDGEHOG
Advantage/Disadvantage: +2


Fast enough to punish just about anything.
His unique movement patterns can bypass many of our moves.
Is it really as easy as we say it is?

We need the following information:​


-STAGES-
"Best" starters for Oli:
"Worst" starters for Oli:
"Best" counterpicks for Oli:
"Worst" counterpicks for Oli:

Notable "move beats move" situations:

Opponent's primary tools:
How we can deal with opponent's primary tools:

Anything else:
(This section includes gimmicks, minor notes, and anything else that isn't covered)

Don't restrict conversation to just these points.
These are just guidelines to help discussion.

Discuss!
 

Sky Pirate

The best defense is a lot of frigging healing
Joined
Mar 10, 2009
Messages
3,660
Location
Elgin, Texas
NNID
SkyPirateCoud
3DS FC
1590-4884-8497
Okay, I don't entirely "get" this match-up. It's so freaking weird.

Espy said once that pivot grab shuts down a bunch of Sonic's options, but a well-timed SideB has a PERFECT angle for getting through our grabs.
Fsmash seems kind of useful, but it leaves us really vulnerable if he powershields it.
SideB is lol.

A couple of things:
- IIRC, he can Bair our shield and jab safely afterward.

- He can lay down a spring under us while we're respawning to prevent us from plucking. It can obviously be avoided, but just keep an eye out.

- His Dsmash beats whistle. IDK about Nair or anything else.

- Watch out for Uthrow to Uair kills.

- He has invincibility gimmicks on YI, Pictochat, Brinstar (I think it's hard to do here without SDing) and RC. I'm sure there are more, though.
Strike YI and ban either YI or Picto.
I like YI more than Picto because it gives him less room to run, but there might be a gimmick that lets him get to the edge easily on YI. I don't know.

- I kind of like Lylat in the match-up, but I'm not familiar with all stages against Sonic yet.
 

FRiSKruns

Smash Ace
Premium
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
Messages
500
Location
San Antonio, Texas
Assuming you let us hit your shield with our Aerial Spin Charge we can get multiple hits in on it, which makes it great for eating shields, especially since we can follow through with an aerial immediately, yes as Espy says pivotgrab shuts out alot of our options, but of course this really only applies to our ground game (ie. dashing shield, dash attack, spindashes, possibly tilts). We could essentially approach with a dashing spotdodge but with that you could probably just utilt since it's a multi-hit. We can of course take to the air if need be since Sonic's bair outranges anything Olimar can throw out in the air, of course we can't try approaching from directly above or we get ***** by your usmash and utilt.

Yes, your side b is lol to Sonic since he can swat that away with any move that has a spin, which is a good portion of his moves. (fair, nair, dsmash, usmash, sideb, downb)
Whistling is good here imo, but really only when trying to live through KO moves, especially since we actually have a decent grab game (especially when we're tech chasing).

Sonic's Ground tech chase is less viable against Olimar, however if Sonic can put Olimar in the air, he can do an air tech chase with a series of uthrows .(since he has the speed to almost always reach your landing spot just in time for a grab) Of course just because he has the speed to do so doesn't always mean the individual has the reaction or reads to do so, so of course being put in the air doesn't *guarantee* that you'll be air tech chased. We're the fastest edgehogger in the game since we have the best ground speed. Of course you guys can still mix up your upb or fair/uair us if you're close enough, and of course footstooling is also an option if you're close enough. Offstage though our bair and spring are really good, for both gimps and free damage in this match-up.

As Espy covered already yes our sideb can jump over your pivotgrab if timed right, and upon start-up has a single frame of invincibility if I recall, as well as high priority.
Yes essentially we can lay a grounded spring under you guys to avoid your ability to pull out pikmin. Yes it can of course be avoided, however dealing with someone who is good at sticking to you it may/may not always be easy to do so due to our ground speed. I wouldn't worry much about it though.

Uthrow-> uair KO's happen, especially when you don't expect them, however they're easy to DI especially with a character who has decent-good aerial accel, and even in the event that you don't DI it, you can always Air Dodge it (though this one's less reliable as if the Sonic reads it, the air dodge will have been baited and you'll get bair'd or uair'd anyway.

When you DI Sonic's Uthrow DI is always *towards* Sonic, as it has the most effect.
If Sonic D-throws you, you can tech directly in front of him. (which gives you frame advantage)
Sonic of course has a good recovery, and overall you'd probably have the most ease with KO'ing him vertically as he has a great horizontal and vertical recovery.
When you edgeguard Sonic I would advise not going to far out as we can get a gimp from it and it's almost/if not always difficult to spike/gimp Sonic due to our recovery.

Stages, in my personal opinion your best bet against us would be Battlefield and Lylat Cruise, Battlefield because it's a small stage with platforms that almost cut out our air game, it's still winnable here of course for us, just alot more difficult as it allows you to platform abuse using your usmash and shuair. Your White pikmin's pivotgrab range covers a good portion of the stage too. However we do have a somewhat easier to setup jab lock on Battlfield assuming we get you on a platform shielding.

Lylat is more or less more of the same, though not as hard on Sonic and slightly bigger stage and stage tilts that *probably* screw over your recovery.

Brinstar is another Stage you could CP us to as it makes it difficult to use our ground game, and forces us to play aerial, though IMO your character already does that anyway.


Our iSDR(invincible Spin Dash Roll) gimmicks are never hard to do w/o SD'ing, the iSDR on Brinstar is hardly notable as we have to break one of the strands keeping the side platforms straight to do so. As far as which between YI and Picto you should ban that would be up to your level of familiarity, though it is notable that w/o iSDR on YI that stage would probably be in your favor as you can platform camp, and it's a smaller stage with less room for us. Although it being a smaller stage, just as you said, makes it easier for us to reach the ledge in time.

I'll get back to this later.
 

kelumhi

Smash Cadet
Joined
Apr 13, 2011
Messages
50
Location
Washington
on a nice side note, if your at the top of upwards momentum after a spin dash -> Uair -> Bup->Uair or Uthrow->Bup->Uair, we can whistle threw it and Uair during his lag which often, due to location, will get a crazy low percent kill.
 

FRiSKruns

Smash Ace
Premium
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
Messages
500
Location
San Antonio, Texas
on a nice side note, if your at the top of upwards momentum after a spin dash -> Uair -> Bup->Uair or Uthrow->Bup->Uair, we can whistle throw it and Uair during his lag which often, due to location, will get a crazy low percent kill.
yep, unfortunately while this is true, it's the same as doing an air dodge in this circumstance, in that it can be read, and you'll get uair or bair'd out of whistle/air dodge. basically it becomes a game of Rock Paper Scissors. Naturally though, it seems like it'd be a better option in respect to air dodging since you may get a KO out of it.
 

Sky Pirate

The best defense is a lot of frigging healing
Joined
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Okay, I talked to Espy a little about the match-up a little while ago (VERY briefly) and I'll be posting a little bit soon.

This match-up will probably go to re-discussion, BTW.

EDIT: Okay, I summed it up to make it easy-to-read:

Most of Sonic's approaching ground game is nullified by Olimar's pivot grab.
SideB doesn't get through pivot grab.

Aerial DownB lets Sonic approach at a relatively safe and easy angle, but takes time to charge and release.
Powershield allows an Usmash OoS
Sonic doesn't HAVE to release the DownB, so it becomes a game of Rock-Paper-Scissors.
If Olimar takes initiative and Sonic doesn't react, Sonic takes a hit.

On taking an aerial DownB on a normal shield:
- We can Usmash OoS, but they can beat this by shielding to cancel and grabbing.
- If we stay in shield, they can apply pressure using the rest of the spin or cancel it into a grab.
- If we try to grab, they can just jab or grab us because of shield stun and our grab speed.
Shieldgrabbing is generally our worst option, but it depends on the Sonic.

Olimar's grab beats Sonic's shield
Sonic's shield into grab beats Olimar's grab
Olimar's Usmash beats Sonic's shield into grab
Sonic's shield blocks usmash
(assuming frame precision)

Espy (11:14:43 PM):
Once Sonic gets in
You can't hurt us.
Unless you read us.

I thought that's a nice way to end the summary. It feels so final. :p
 

MiniTroika

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 14, 2009
Messages
333
This match is best played at a long distance. Pivot grab/nair/ and utilt beats nearly all of Sonic's approaches but the Side B during the initial jump. If Sonic side B's, then u-tilt or Nair (safer) to beat it out. Don't hold shield if he spin dashes. Wait for the Sonic to let go and PShield it. Mix up with a spotdodge or roll.
 

B.A.M.

Smash Lord
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Mar 13, 2008
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Fullerton, CA
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Bambatta
i was playing rich in this match up the other day. you have to be comfortable with Sonics options. we have very few go to options as far as approaching goes. sh bair and aerial spin charge aka ASC are our most solid ones. side b has invincible startup so that helps at times as well. You have to be weary of our mixup and realize how much of them pivot grab takes away.

For instance mini trokia is talking about playing this match at long distance. Thats stupid. why? you're placing yourself closer to the edge, why would you do that? you're not falco; you're not going to zip past us when you get cornered. simply stay mid range. Usmash OoS should own spin dashes along with a simple pivot grab on reaction. Dont whistle stupidly. You have aerials that beat ours for the most part sans uair (which is very good aerial). Our character often reset his good positioning after an attack, which is why we get such long strings. You have to make it hard on us to juggle you. pivot whistles, use a couple of your aerials, mix up your landings, etc.

also take note of when a sonic charges his down b; it actually GAINS priority as well as speed. itll clank or bypass some attacks when charged. You have to keep us out as well as try to maintain stage control. If you lose any of those 2, we get a chance to beast you a bit. You also have to consider the fact it is hard for us to kill, not strength wise but the utility of our kill options. As long as you are aware, we should have trouble with that.

DI is important as usual but especially in our case as we have some moves that will = gimp if you DI stupidly. We are fast so our edge hog and ability to capitalize on that bad DI so quickly is definitely something to keep in mind.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWmpIrHXmkM

Theres a lot of pointless whistling that lead to huge damage; it was nice that you used your aerials time to time but you got scared. Terrible DI on the fairs were sending you in the corner where you have terrible position and you got punished hard. DI is a huge factor in this matchup, you have to DI so you can get in a less disadvantageous position.

Yeah i know you obviously made mistakes Denti, Im just saying look how little it took for that. You have to punish our approaches hard, otherwise we have a field day.
 

RichBrown

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 10, 2002
Messages
3,266
Location
Santa Clarita
Ha I studied the **** out of this MU after a certain tournament in Dallas

Basically, Olimar should almost NEVER jump. As many of you have noticed Sonic is a pretty fast character, and he can punish our jump ON REACTION. So if you're getting predictable with your sideB camping, that's probably why you're getting *****.

Basically, just watch how Sonic is trying to roll in. You can pivot grab his approaches... but that's level 1. Level 2 is when they jump JUST outside pivotgrab range, then immediately sideB again into you. So the trick I learned is to fake a pivot grab by just pivoting, then doing a real pivot grab to catch that 2nd spin dash

Also mix up pivotgrab with stutterstep Fsmash.

Our nair beats Sonic's spinny **** it's so dumb

Also Sonic bair is REALLY weird. I played BAM in tournament this weekend, he baired my shield and I powershielded it and tried to Usmash immediately, but then he powershielded my Usmash. I might have been a little late trying to Usmash but even still I think there's a certain spacing to where it can't be punished, so it's not a good idea really to be LOOKING to usmashOoS Sonic's bair. That being said, if the situation comes up it's worth trying it because sometimes it will land, and if it doesn't more often than not the Sonic will just roll away.

Dash away-stutterstep Fsmash is particularly **** in this MU.

Oh and some Sonics like to Fthrow-fair the first time, the Fthrow-wait the 2nd time. Don't airdodge impulsively. The ground is most definitely your friend here. You do want sonic to constantly approach you, so sideB from the ground, and occasionally jump to do it as a bait.
 
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