Zero Suit Samus
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Can't we use the same logic saying the ZSS boards are bias saying it is even because A) It's the ZSS board and B) there are very few decent marth players?If you go to the ZSS match up thread there's about 3 pages of me and Emblem Lord arguing about the match up lol. I say it's even while he says it's 6/4 Marth. Both characters can actually **** each other pretty bad, which is why there will be a lot of bias in some posts. Any Marth that played a bad ZSS will say it's Marth's favor, and vice versa. It's going to sound like Marth has the favor here becaue A) This is the Marth board and B) There are very few decent ZSS players.
That's the problem....and I suppose why he says "vice versa" =bCan't we use the same logic saying the ZSS boards are bias saying it is even because A) It's the ZSS board and B) there are very few decent marth players?
there could be bias on the ZSS boards...but I tell it how I see it, and am not biased myself.Can't we use the same logic saying the ZSS boards are bias saying it is even because A) It's the ZSS board and B) there are very few decent marth players?
99% of marth's suck. I know what you are saying though, and since the official match up chart in the Tactical Discussion requires both boards to agree.. shall we collaborate?there could be bias on the ZSS boards...but I tell it how I see it, and am not biased myself.
And I meant that there are very few decent ZSS players in existence.
QFT, There are so many Marths out there that have no clue what they are doing and then come here to find a few people who actually have any clue what they are talking about. It is kind of funny, and I won't deny that at one point I was like this, but I was just on a thread where people thought Marth's Fsmash was one of his bad moves. My Marth is pretty bad, but I like to think I kind of know what I'm talking about now, I sure as hell didn't when I joined though. There are under 20 smart Marth mainers on SWF, and I did not count people on the cusp.99% of marth's suck. I know what you are saying though, and since the official match up chart in the Tactical Discussion requires both boards to agree.. shall we collaborate?
I agree with all of that. But since Marth demolishes ZSS at close range how is this an even match? Side b is a real threat to Marth but that can't keep him out for very long. Once Marth is able to break through that and limit her options with his sword I can't see Zamus being able to do much.Well I say its even, and I'm not changing that. I'm one of the only people that have really played this match up at a high level. Here's my basic breakdown of the match up
Marth
- Strong advantage at close range. Demolishes ZSS with pressure after breaking through her spacing.
- has a bit more KO power
- much better grab game
- can stop Paralyzer shots with F-air and jab.
- can edgeguard well
ZSS
- Advantage at long-mid range. Spaces with Side B, and occasional Paralyzer shots.
- can up-air Marth's aerials out of shield.
- stonger air game.
- stronger edge-guarding.
- very versatile recovery.
- Good KO power
- Can KO with several different attacks.
....funny how some think the opposite of what it is >_> Like what Bengals said
btw Marth is one of my secondaries
The same reason Marth completely destroys other characters by keeping them at his range. Only a bit to a lesser extent.I agree with all of that. But since Marth demolishes ZSS at close range how is this an even match? Side b is a real threat to Marth but that can't keep him out for very long. Once Marth is able to break through that and limit her options with his sword I can't see Zamus being able to do much.
Well for one, against a top ZSS it's harder than you might think to break through. Like I said, if you approach from the air it's possible for her up-air him out of shield. And once he does break through, it's not like I said the stock is over. When she gets hit away, she can reclaim the advantage after recovering. It is easier for her to recover from the air because of the invincibility and momentum of down B.I agree with all of that. But since Marth demolishes ZSS at close range how is this an even match? Side b is a real threat to Marth but that can't keep him out for very long. Once Marth is able to break through that and limit her options with his sword I can't see Zamus being able to do much.
ZSS has easily the longest of the tether recoveries in the game, plus she has a third jump, and she can use up-b as many times as she wants, and using it while jumping gives her an extra height boost.ZSS's dominatrix playstyle wont help her here. The whip slightly outranges marth but marth is fast enought to dash in and wait for her to react (and hope she doesnt grab, which is a laggy move anyway). Lots of ZSS's moves are punishable if they miss (paralyzer, lots of her whip moves, etc.). Marth can up+B outta lots of her moves, then to top it all off, she can be edgehogged like a mofo. Im not saying ZSS doesnt stand a chance vs marth but typically if both players are of equal skill, it should be an uphill battle for samus and not marth.
This, btw @ backlash.ZSS has easily the longest of the tether recoveries in the game, plus she has a third jump, and she can use it as many times as she wants, and using it while jumping gives her an extra height boost.
So how exactly can she be edge hogged like a mofo?
Hey, I've played against you once before at some tournament in CT, i got wrecked pretty hard. I'm going to Inui's tournament in 2 weeks, so i hope to see you there as well.Well for one, against a top ZSS it's harder than you might think to break through. Like I said, if you approach from the air it's possible for her up-air him out of shield. And once he does break through, it's not like I said the stock is over. When she gets hit away, she can reclaim the advantage after recovering. It is easier for her to recover from the air because of the invincibility and momentum of down B.
Another thing i forgot to mention is that at absolute close range zss has the advantage with her 1 frame jab and also insanely fast up-tilt
How can you really base that match off anything if he is a much better player than you?Hey, I've played against you once before at some tournament in CT, i got wrecked pretty hard. I'm going to Inui's tournament in 2 weeks, so i hope to see you there as well.
I have to say. From that one match where Snakeee wrecked me I can see what the advantages and disadvantages are. Zamus makes it VERY hard to get in. Snakeee was using his items as a brickwall, Paralyzer shots, forward B, and her lightning quick attacks to keep me at bay. True, once you get in all that you have an advantage. But gimping is also pretty hard, I must say. Her insane back air and her up B that you could always get spiked by are fairly hard to get by.
I'd say it's even, there just needs to be a lot more pro Zamus players. She is really underestimated.
Because he also did very well in the tournament, and I saw it being used for effect against the better players there. Trust me when I say it was a constant wall of something.How can you really base that match off anything if he is a much better player than you?
Did you manage to see him play a good marth? I'm not doubting he can't make a wall with Zamus' tools, but it's not impossible to get through.Because he also did very well in the tournament, and I saw it being used for effect against the better players there. Trust me when I say it was a constant wall of something.
Regardless, i got a lot better since then so I hope to play this again when I see him next
EDIT: I think ZSS might have an advantage in this matchup just based off not knowing what do do, lol. This is certainly one matchup you don't see often
The statement was a joke, thus the lol. Though I do know of very few ZSS players in general, nevermind Zamus pros.Did you manage to see him play a good marth? I'm not doubting he can't make a wall with Zamus' tools, but it's not impossible to get through.
And what kind of statement is that, ZSS has the advantage because you don't know the match up? wtf?
You sir, are completely wrong here. ZSS is actually one of the hardest characters to gimp. She has plenty of recovery options, you've probably just played very few and terrible ones. The only way she can really be gimped without making a bad mistake is by being spiked. In fact maybe I should start money-matching people that think she gets gimped easily, because it's so laughable. I'm not surprised though, since even top players make this assumption at first. But, the only times I've ever gotten gimped with ZSS in genera, even against Marth, is when I made a stupid mistake which is very rare.ZSS's dominatrix playstyle wont help her here. The whip slightly outranges marth but marth is fast enought to dash in and wait for her to react (and hope she doesnt grab, which is a laggy move anyway). Lots of ZSS's moves are punishable if they miss (paralyzer, lots of her whip moves, etc.). Marth can up+B outta lots of her moves, then to top it all off, she can be edgehogged like a mofo. Im not saying ZSS doesnt stand a chance vs marth but typically if both players are of equal skill, it should be an uphill battle for samus and not marth.
LOL. good one.Firstly stop right now with the gimping.you are never going to gimp a good zss as she has so many recovery options,Plus while you are trying to gimp she can use one of her quicker moves(i have tested this)and kill you,people that get killed by gimping are increadably stuipid or just dont play well.
zss has the advantage as she can make a wall with her parts,get rid of marths down b and use her down throw to get into the air game.
65 zss: 35 marth.
because I made a stupid mistake which is the only way like I said.I have gimped Snakeee in tourney.
What now b*tch?
Marth hits ZSS off the stageYou sir, are completely wrong here. ZSS is actually one of the hardest characters to gimp.
Alright alright, I exaggerated a little bit. I'm not saying it's completely impossible to be done, and Marth is one of the characters that has the best chance of doing so. It is still very difficult though, and you would have to read the ZSS player perfectly. I don't recover the exact same way everytime, since ZSS can mix things up with recovery.
The only thing I don't like about recovering against Marth is it's not as good of an idea to down B footstool jump over his head while he's holding the ledge, since it's easier for him to ledgehop attack ZSS than others.