Match-Up Chart (Outdated); please refer to the new chart.

[Magus420]

@ICG: I know you did. Without even considering how safe the attacks themselves are it's still overall safer. That's kind of like saying the lag of Ganon's u-smash is safer frame wise than his jab because the window is smaller. When those vulnerable frames are is important. Shine is able to beat a grab coming out on 27+. Pichu's jab is able to beat it coming out on 29+.

 

[Merkuri]

Anyone else think Puff >> Shiek? I don't think > alone is enough. It really is a ***** match up for Shiek. Her combos to finishes(what makes her good) doesn't work on puff. And Puff's edge guard on Shiek is insane. You just grab the ledge, wait for her to land and then rest her, it works extremely well. And Shiek has a sub-par rest punish. I think it's the worst match up of all the high tiers.

 

[t3h Icy]

I think it was QERB that went over G&W/Falco, explaining that it's hard for G&W to get in, but if he can, he can combo Falco fairly well and follow up nicely. Falco also kind of dies off the edge. It's still brutal, but G&W isn't completely helpless.

Also thanks SleepyK. =)

 

[SleepyK]

i agree, but in general edgeguarding falco is the same as fox. falco can nearly zero to death gnw like fox can.. and he has an easier time locking down gnw due to laser stun.
imo it's probably something like +2.5 for falco or 2.7.. but i'd love to discuss with qerb

 

[KAOSTAR]

@teh Icy Im pretty sure M2>kirby. So update that **** again my dude.

Lol, every low tier character says the same thing vs falco. Its hard to get inside but you are rewarded with combos if you do.

 

[SleepyK]

but it's the same with vs fox.
well, not the "same" of course, but you know what i mean

 

[ChivalRuse]

Anyone else think Puff >> Shiek? I don't think > alone is enough. It really is a ***** match up for Shiek. Her combos to finishes(what makes her good) doesn't work on puff. And Puff's edge guard on Shiek is insane. You just grab the ledge, wait for her to land and then rest her, it works extremely well. And Shiek has a sub-par rest punish. I think it's the worst match up of all the high tiers.

Dthrow uair/fair is guaranteed. Risky to go for the grab, but at least there's a somewhat high reward for landing one. Sheik's aerials are above average in every regard. She has the range and priority to actually challenge Jigglypuff in the air. Fair and sweetspotted bair KO reliably.

Sheik's only notable weaknesses in the matchup are
1. Edgeguarding. Puff can rest you. You can't edgeguard her.
2. Crouching under grabs.
3. A discrepancy in comboability. She combos you. You can't combo her.

To address 3., well, Jiggs has rest combos/setups on every character. In Sheik's case, this fact has no special meaning.

As for 2., whiffed grabs can be minimized by only attempting them when they're guaranteed (i.e., after Jiggs lands from an aerial or after she smashes/tilts your shield). A few other opportunities arise with grabbing her from a roll or spotdodge. Anyway, moving on.

Puff doesn't get edgeguarded period. Sheik is no exception. On the flip side, Puff can take the edge, force Sheik to recover onstage, and land a rest free, right? Not exactly. Assuming the Sheik's DI is on point, and she takes care not to get hit hard while near the edge or bthrown, she won't be knocked far enough away to be forced to resort to her up-b. Just because rest is so strong, people tend to exaggerate how useful it is in the matchup. Jiggs has equally gay things on most other characters. The only reason why Jiggs takes the edge vs Sheik is because her recovery while off stage is somewhat unpredictable, unlike Falcon/Ganon, who have to recover linearly, or Fox/Falco, whose up-b's have punishable startup. It's tricky/not guaranteed to go out there and bair Sheik, whereas the Mario brothers can be sniped via these means very reliably. Marth's recovery shares some traits with Sheik's in that most of the time, Jiggs can force him to land on the stage. Even mixing up his recovery with dancing blades/fastfalls/airdodges doesn't preserve as many stocks as you would think. Jiggs can easily rest Marth out of his up-b, and yet nobody says that Jiggs >> Marth. Marth's grabs can also be crouched. He also has trouble comboing Jiggs, while the converse is not true. Moreover, he lacks reliable KO setups. All of his KO moves are horribly punishable. His "walling" isn't nearly as effective as people seem to think it is. First of all, Jiggs has no incentive to approach, since Marth lacks a projectile. Furthermore, all of Marth's defenses have veritable weak points. How are you going to keep Jiggs out? Retreating fairs. Jiggs can run up shield it and punish with fair oos. Dtilts? Jiggs can hop over them and bair. Jabs? Jiggs can waveshield/wavecrouch in between swipes and time oos aerials. It should be Jiggs >> Marth before we even suggest Jiggs >> Sheik.

Peach-ICs is a >> matchup. It's completely one-sided. Borderline impossible. Sheik-Puff doesn't even scratch the surface of one-sided/impossible.

 

[Silent Wolf]

Silent Wolf: "all of this. especially the last couple parts. you really cant know until you play kirby and are actually good with him"

If i understand this right you mean i can´t say that without playing kirby (if i have understood this wrong i will give you a apology) and i agree BUT have you ever seen my kirby play?

Do you know how much i have play with him?
I have experience with Kirby (in friendlis but still you learn from the firendlis) and i know what i am talking about.

If you don´t believe me you can ask Amsah for example even if that was friendlis i think Amsah will give my kirby some cred.

( and if i understood you in a wrong way just say it).

just saw this. i wasnt talking about you, i know you have a good kirby. i was talking to the people who talk about how bad kirby is when they dont really have an experience with him. i used to think he was useless until i started playing him a lot. hes still pretty bad, but definitely underrated.

 

[Cactuarz]

G&W vs zelda imo is pretty even, if the G&W light shields like crazy and doesn't run in attacking her sheild haha. Platforms G&W can light sheild and get knocked off the platform, then instantly jump > fair/bair and combo zelda 2-3 hits at low %'s. Also G&W's grab game is **** (dthrow > nair).

Edgeguarding is pretty much one sided >.> though zelda has lolkicks and kills in just a couple moves. I don't find G&W's sheild nearly as much of a problem as everyone says it is, just cause you learn to NOT SHEILD or not full sheild when you're put into pressure. (read G&W's mobility destroys on stage zelda recovery, also large meaty hitboxes[nair] destroy some guessing games near edge, whereas zelda can't edge guard G&W)

(also I main G&W and secondary zelda... mostly for samus matchup. I definately agree G&W vs samus is << haha. though you can dtilt samus from like 20-55? and it sets them into pratfall which you can jab reset >.> though that's just a gimmick)

Am I missing something with the zelda G&W matchup?

 

[Divinokage]

i feel ganon has a >>> over game and watch. sure, gdubs can combo and edgeguard ganondorf fairly well, but ganon can keep him out and outrange him with... not even careful spacing.

plus shield = lol

I disagree, you still have to space well against GnW.. because if not it's possible for GnW to counter attack Ganon in between his moves.. GnW can be fairly fast still. I mean his fair is annoying. Now obviously GnW, should barely shield in this matchup.. I think he should rely on trying to avoid most of Ganon's attacks if he wants to win.

 

[Winston]

Man, nobody wants to discuss Luigi!

just as a recap, I think:

Jiggs >> Luigi should be > or =
Marth >> Luigi should be >

While we're talking about Luigi...there better be a **** good reason that Doc and Mario are < Fox and Luigi is <<.

Probably every other Luigi agrees with you but I feel like Doc definitely does better in the matchup. He has a useful projectile and has better spacing tools, and he can combo Fox at least as well as Luigi can.

Luigi still might be only a single < to Fox, though. I just think Doc is better than him at the mu.

 

[t3h Icy]

Here's QERB's opinion on Falco and others from awhile ago:

Hi, thanks for messaging me. Making this matchup chart is a great thing to do, and I'll definitely be happy to assist you with g&w matchups. I checked it out, here are my thoughts:

I totally agree with the sheik matchup, the matchup is extremely difficult for g&w, he gets cg'd, gimped from needles, etc. Brutal matchup there.

I would like to think that the g&w vs marth matchup is only a "disadvantage" for G&W. I cannot really verify this, because I do not have as much experience against marth, as I do with some other characters, but here are some reasons why I feel it's only a disadvantage:
1. G&W lacks the range that marth has, but he has priority which is equal to or greater than most of marth's moves. For example, a simple dash attack from g&w will "clank" with a marth f-smash. After this clank occurs, g&w can jab, followed by either a d-tilt or grab, and begin combo'ing.

2. D-throw combos. Once G&W gets a grab, the d-throw combos are nearly endless. At low %s, he can d-throw to f-air/judgement, and at high %s d-throw to n-air is guaranteed to get marth off the stage. Additonally, on stages with platforms, the d-throw OR d-tilt will get marth on platforms, which g&w can brutally take advantage, since G&W has priority over marth when marth is above him. A marth on a platform can be d-air-> n-aired for a kill, regrabbed, etc.

3. G&W can gimp marth. Of course marth can also gimp G&W with his tipped f-smash, which can be devastating on small stages like YS. But G&W can also do the same to marth, it just requires more timing. When G&W hits marth off stage, marth is very vulnerable. Here are some reasons why: When marth is forward b-ing for horizontal recovery, he is vulnerable to G&W's n-airs and f-airs, which would be a stock. But you could say, a good marth won't allow you to get him that easily, because he would lower himself to sweetspot range. In that case, if g&w throws sausages to edge-guard marth, the sausages drop down belows the edge, since they are like no other projectile. And when ANY character gets hit by a sausage or 2, it makes it quite difficult to re-sweetspot the edge after up-b'ing. Thus, G&W can take advantage of this and gimp with a d-tilt or a fastfalled n-air.
...Just my thoughts on marth

FALCO

in my 4 or so years of maining G&W, this matchup is the matchup I've played most. I think I am the most knowledgable at this matchup. I've taken games off of some good falco players such as zhu, D1, doyoung2win. And i honestly believe that this matchup is only a SLIGHT disadvantage for g&w. I'm actually in the midst of making a pretty extensive matchup-discussion about this matchup which will be posted on the official matchup discussion for g&w on the g&w boards if you wanna check it out, but here are the general reasons why i think this:

1. Falco and G&W both combo the s*** out of each other. Falco's combos are pretty automatic, whereas G&W requires some tech-chasing and prediction.

2. Falco's lasers do not ruin G&W's life. Yes it is difficult to approach falco or be approached by falco when good laser-spacing is involved, however, G&W has the priority to be able to attack falco from above. Especially on stages with platforms. I will admit, fighting a good falco player who knows how to properly space his lasers on stages like FD and PS is pretty difficult. However even on those stages, G&W has brutal CG combos that can result in gimps. But on stages with platforms, G&W performs even better, with the exception of battlefield, since the placement of the platforms on that stage really help in falco's favor. On stages with platforms, G&W can use the platforms to his advantage and as an escape from lasers, whereas most characters (if not all) cannot. Once G&W is on a platform, you may think he is in danger of getting aerial'd, but with attacks like his d-tilt and and d-air, which have great range and some of the most priority in the game, it gives falco a hard time to hit G&W from below. If Falco instead full hop lasers or lasers from another platform, G&W can now waveland on to the bottom platfrom and now be below falco, where G&W also has the advantage since his u-tilt, u-air and n-air ALL have priority over ALL of falco's aerials. Additionally, if falco gets hit from g&w d-tilt or d-air, G&W immediately starts combo'ing with a some tech-chasing.

3. Falco is pretty easy to edge-guard and gimp. One grab at the edge of a stage and falco is most likely going to get gimped. The reason why this is true is because it is difficult for players to realize which direction they are getting thrown in to DI it properly, since all lf G&W's throws look quite similar. So if I were to throw a falco away from the stage, and he DI's towards the stage, I get a free f-air hit, stock. If i do the same throw and this time falco DI's away from the stage, now he has to recover. G&W has edgeguard moves that are very fast and unpunishable. For example, lets say i predict the falco is going to forward-b illusion to the edge. because of this, i use d-tilt. However I predicted incorrectly and he instead uses up-b. Because the d-tilt has such a short duration of post-lag, I can now get ready to edgeguard the up-b with either another d-tilt (if i predict he's up-b'ing straight ahead, upwards, or from below), an f-air or n-air otherwise, and falco will lose a stock.

I can talk about it this matchup more if you want, but I really do think that that is the matchup

Also I think that since I'm not a very great player, and I'm able to beat very, very good falco players, that THAT has something to say about this matchup. Just sayin



I'll get back to you about more matchups later, take these into consideration! Hope it helps.

 

[giuocob]

Man, nobody wants to discuss Luigi!

just as a recap, I think:

Jiggs >> Luigi should be > or =
Marth >> Luigi should be >



Probably every other Luigi agrees with you but I feel like Doc definitely does better in the matchup. He has a useful projectile and has better spacing tools, and he can combo Fox at least as well as Luigi can.

Luigi still might be only a single < to Fox, though. I just think Doc is better than him at the mu.

I agree with Jiggs > Luigi but I'm not sure about Marth. I've been ***** by a few decent Marths, but I have little experience so I'll leave that one alone.

Sure, both Doc and Luigi have roughly as good comboes, but Luigi is easily harder to combo (oh you shined me, oh well, I'll just slide across 3/4 of final destination then Dsmash you as you run in for the followup) and I'd argue he has a more effective edgeguard as well. Doc does have some advantages too, but what I'm really getting at is it's easily Luigi < Fox.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I think Marth can keep Luigi above him better than pretty much any character in the game because of the big hulking sword and Uair/Fair and just spam sword with decent timing until Luigi tries to go through him. You can also just tipper F-smash him if he drifts to the side to try to get away (risk of air-dodge) or carry him offstage with soft Fair --> follow.

Luigi doesn't get points for being difficult to grab either.

I don't know much about the matchup beyond that though. I'm not sure Marth really walls Luigi out super well nowadays, though I think if he reacted to WDs with spaced D-tilts (tipped D-tilt is ridiculous) it would be really hard for Luigi to approach that. His aerial mobility is poor and being in the air against Marth is difficult. Do the matchup kind of Ice Climbers style, only you don't have to worry about them jumping over D-tilts with their double Fair.

 

[Cosmo!]

john! was in here posting about G&W vs Zelda awhile back. we actually were at the same tournament and played the matchup and I just double jumped out of his dthrow -> nair. is it even a combo?

 

[john!]

i ended up having to up b combo out of dthrow it was so dumb

but that was one friendly and my g&w did about as well as my peach lol

so i'm gonna have to play that matchup more

 

[h!tboxexplo!ter]

Anyone else think Puff >> Shiek? I don't think > alone is enough. It really is a ***** match up for Shiek. Her combos to finishes(what makes her good) doesn't work on puff. And Puff's edge guard on Shiek is insane. You just grab the ledge, wait for her to land and then rest her, it works extremely well. And Shiek has a sub-par rest punish. I think it's the worst match up of all the high tiers.

uh NO. i think it has been thoroughly covered that just because sheik can combo the crap out of most of the cast, she doesnt need to dot that in order to beat a given character (look at her vs luigi ffs). if puff has more than... its either 64% or 72% sheik can onehit puff with upsmash, which i would never define as subpar. if puff is below that, recharge needles->dthrow->air of choice. sheiks needles, dtilt, usmash oos, and bair all work fabulously on puff as well. definitely not a << matchup its 40-60 (amsahs working on it tho ^.^). sheiks isnt nearly as deathcombo prone as the the three fastfallers are either, so in some respects its a positive that she needs to be edgeguarded, instead of just murdered at 12%.
the worst matchup of all the high tiers is sheik vs marth. unless you propose its worse than that??

-edit: bring it troll

 

[KirbyKaze]

Sheik can combo the crap out of Luigi though.

You just have to do it in chunks. And be patient while doing so.

 

[unknown522]

NEW EVIDENCE GUYS
DK VS. FOX IS 70-30 IN DK'S FAVOR
DISCUSS

Spoiler

Brawl noobs for the bloody win

Man, this is too funny.

Also, KK is right.

 

[Jimbo Slice]

Hahahaha It has to be true. I saw it on Youtube.

 

[KirbyKaze]

DK Fox is probably 70-30.

DK's just not the 70.

 

[otg]

DK Fox is probably 70-30.

DK's just not the 70.

i l oled

 

[KAOSTAR]

Lol .
+1 KK

 

[SleepyK]

G&W vs zelda imo is pretty even, if the G&W light shields like crazy and doesn't run in attacking her sheild haha. Platforms G&W can light sheild and get knocked off the platform, then instantly jump > fair/bair and combo zelda 2-3 hits at low %'s. Also G&W's grab game is **** (dthrow > nair).

Edgeguarding is pretty much one sided >.> though zelda has lolkicks and kills in just a couple moves. I don't find G&W's sheild nearly as much of a problem as everyone says it is, just cause you learn to NOT SHEILD or not full sheild when you're put into pressure. (read G&W's mobility destroys on stage zelda recovery, also large meaty hitboxes[nair] destroy some guessing games near edge, whereas zelda can't edge guard G&W)

(also I main G&W and secondary zelda... mostly for samus matchup. I definately agree G&W vs samus is << haha. though you can dtilt samus from like 20-55? and it sets them into pratfall which you can jab reset >.> though that's just a gimmick)

Am I missing something with the zelda G&W matchup?

i dunno, the zeldas i have played all played very defensively and i had a lot of trouble dealing with carefully spaced, patient/retreating fairs/bairs.

I disagree, you still have to space well against GnW.. because if not it's possible for GnW to counter attack Ganon in between his moves.. GnW can be fairly fast still. I mean his fair is annoying. Now obviously GnW, should barely shield in this matchup.. I think he should rely on trying to avoid most of Ganon's attacks if he wants to win.

hmm, i suppose i should never assume chaddd isn't trying to space well lol. but if ganondorf spaces well, is there still hope for gnw? we are trying to assume high metagame etc.

i still would like to discuss stuff with qerb if he ever comes bacl.

 

[Winston]

So as a community are we really ready to accept that Samus is the best non top tier character? and that Falcon is worse than Doc? Because that's what the matchup chart as it is now shows.

Things I've thought of that can explain this:

a). people view how difficult matchups are differently based on the dynamics of the matchup and not how hard it is to actually win

b). Most players, even top level ones, don't know a lot of common matchups as well as they should.

c). The sample size of top players is small enough that variance in skill is more important than how "good" the character actually is.

d). differences in player skill scale differently for different characters

I feel like c and d are the most likely explanations, but if they are, the tier list should look a lot different than how it is now.

 

[Pink Reaper]

Falcon players just like to ***** about how bad their obviously amazing character is honestly.

 

[Winston]

That's how I feel for the most part (that Falcon is an awesome character), but his top tier matchups are a lot worse than Samus' (from what we currently know). They're about as good as Ganon and Doc's, probably worse than IC's also.

so I'm trying to figure out how to reconcile my intuition about Falcon being awesome with the "facts".

 

[SleepyK]

probably because falcon has zero to death opportunities whereas samus doesn't.

 

[Winston]

I mean yeah, I know that, but does that really make Falcon a better character despite having worse matchups?

 

[SleepyK]

being able to kill your opponent off of a single hit... i would say that would do it.

 

[NJzFinest]

Lol, we need a Bowser player to post stuff.

 

[SleepyK]

i could ask dashdancedan. he knows a fair bit about bowser.

 

[BunBun]

Get Luke .

 

[Skler]

The only thing with Falcon is that while he can 0-death pretty much the entire cast all the top tiers can do it to him. I still feel like if you can 0-death your opponent off half your moves then the matchup isn't any worse than <.

 

[Cosmo!]

The only thing with Falcon is that while he can 0-death pretty much the entire cast all the top tiers can do it to him. I still feel like if you can 0-death your opponent off half your moves then the matchup isn't any worse than <.

lol, agreed.

 

[V3ctorMan]

Maybe Im mistaken, but didnt you pm DJ nintendo and warrior knight around the same time you asked me about m2 matchups lol,

So did they ever respond lmao, or has the meta game changed since then and you need another opinion? How busy could they really be lol?

FYI you did lol

@V3ctorman-you ****in up man, you gotta choose yo side. lol. M2 needs to win as many matchups as possible.

M2.........or.........yoshi

Lol @ the DK fox thing. Get ***** MU chart

LOL, haw Kaostar, I still agree with what I said.. I do still think it's in Mewtwo's favor, I always will.. ^^ Just showing some "Favoritism towards Yoshi" I can't believe it's taken me 3 years to play this dino...And there is no Mewtwo or Yoshi, Im playing BOTH of them at a competetive level, just you wait and see man ^^

Yoshi is ****ing ILL! <3

 

[Rappster]

NO MATTER WHAT, when a projectile comes you have to make a decision. Do nothing is NEVER an option.

unless thou art link

 

[Skler]

**** yeah, Link.

 

[BunBun]

That shield is so broken.

 

[*P*L*U*R*]

IC is a worse character than Falcon.

*quickly runs away*